DX12 to be announced on March 20th

Conker said:
Every new DX version so far in history has shown that first generation new DX cards usually slow then after the 1st generation like 2nd and 3rd it becomes a lot faster like 5870 to 6900 and so on.
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This statement suggests you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. DX12 doesn't require new HW, thus the soon to be released Maxwell will be the 3rd generation DX12 class HW release.
 
xoleras said:
Seeing as D3D 11 requires shader model 5.x capable hardware, as does DX12, the xbox 360 will not be included.
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Incorrect. The minimum hardware requirement for DirectX 11 is Shader Model 2.0 (DX11 feature level 9_1). The Xbox 360 actually exceeds the minimum hardware requirements needed to run the DX11 and DX12 APIs.

Shader Model 5.0 hardware isn't required unless you jump all the way up to DX11 feature level 11_0.

Edit: Now obviously, you can't use all the latest features of the DX11 API on a Shader Model 2.0 card, but you CAN use the API. This is a fully supported scenario.

xoleras said:
And really...this should be common sense as the 360 was released in 2005, it aint getting DX12. ;)
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What does being released in 2005 have to do with anything? The first Shader Model 2.0 GPU's came out in 2002 (and are supported by the DX11 API).

As has been mentioned previously in this thread, it's possible to write a graphics engine using the DX11 API, targeting Feature Level 9_1, that would then run happily on a GeForce FX 5950 or Radeon 9800 Pro.
 
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Terpfen said:
The context was pretty clear both before and after your posts popped up.
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That's wonderful news. I'll inform the others.

euskalzabe said:
This statement suggests you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. DX12 doesn't require new HW, thus the soon to be released Maxwell will be the 3rd generation DX12 class HW release.
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With one addendum: it's not clear what architectures at this point will support feature level 12_0. I would think that current hardware would offer support for 12_0, but I don't know how many or which. But I don't think it's going to really matter all that much.
 
Interesting. I brought up the XBox 360 because I just got the 4g version a couple years ago then added the 250g HD. I forget the specs for the "XBox 360 4g" right now tho I thought it was DX11 but, forget what all the other specs are - anybody have all the accurate specs on it? Will it tell me in the dashboard? Anyway, I wondered if the "XBox 360 4g" would also get the DX12 update or not - at least maybe SOME of the features!?!?!?

Unknown-One said:
Incorrect. The minimum hardware requirement for DirectX 11 is Shader Model 2.0 (DX11 feature level 9_1). The Xbox 360 actually exceeds the minimum hardware requirements needed to run the DX11 and DX12 APIs.

Shader Model 5.0 hardware isn't required unless you jump all the way up to DX11 feature level 11_0.

Edit: Now obviously, you can't use all the latest features of the DX11 API on a Shader Model 2.0 card, but you CAN use the API. This is a fully supported scenario.


What does being released in 2005 have to do with anything? The first Shader Model 2.0 GPU's came out in 2002 (and are supported by the DX11 API).

As has been mentioned previously in this thread, it's possible to write a graphics engine using the DX11 API, targeting Feature Level 9_1, that would then run happily on a GeForce FX 5950 or Radeon 9800 Pro.
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wonderfield said:
With one addendum: it's not clear what architectures at this point will support feature level 12_0. I would think that current hardware would offer support for 12_0, but I don't know how many or which. But I don't think it's going to really matter all that much.
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Good point, thanks for adding that bit. I would imagine DX11 hardware (Fermi/Keller/Maxwell) will be 12.0 feature level compliant from what we have learned so far, but obviously none of this is confirmed or written in stone until NVIDIA shares more info.
 
Unknown-One said:
Incorrect. The minimum hardware requirement for DirectX 11 is Shader Model 2.0 (DX11 feature level 9_1). The Xbox 360 actually exceeds the minimum hardware requirements needed to run the DX11 and DX12 APIs.

Shader Model 5.0 hardware isn't required unless you jump all the way up to DX11 feature level 11_0.

Edit: Now obviously, you can't use all the latest features of the DX11 API on a Shader Model 2.0 card, but you CAN use the API. This is a fully supported scenario.


What does being released in 2005 have to do with anything? The first Shader Model 2.0 GPU's came out in 2002 (and are supported by the DX11 API).

As has been mentioned previously in this thread, it's possible to write a graphics engine using the DX11 API, targeting Feature Level 9_1, that would then run happily on a GeForce FX 5950 or Radeon 9800 Pro.
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The DX9 feature levels are honestly useless as they are, even if you technically can do it. Maybe would have been less so with SM3 support but it didn't for some reason. At that point XP support for you is already out the window so you're probably looking at hardware that is slightly less than ancient anyway.
 
socK said:
The DX9 feature levels are honestly useless as they are, even if you technically can do it.
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They do exist and are supported, though. DX11 will run on SM 2.0-class hardware.

The point I'm making is that DX API version isn't directly tied to hardware anymore. That's why a lot of us weren't worried about DX12 being supported on DX11 hardware.

socK said:
Maybe would have been less so with SM3 support but it didn't for some reason.
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Likely because everything in SM 3.0 has an SM 4.0 equivalent that's more efficient (and 9_1, 9_2, and 9_3 are all sub-levels of the their SM 4.0 implementation).

Basically, implementing SM 3.0 support would be 100% redundant for any hardware that supports SM 4.0 and up.
 
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Just because you can doesn't mean it makes sense, literally nobody uses those fallbacks.

My old x1900 would've been comparatively gimped under the DX11 fallback versus DX9, and that's dumb.
 
socK said:
My old x1900 would've been comparatively gimped under the DX11 fallback versus DX9, and that's dumb.
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I'm not sure I understand. How would it be gimped while running a more efficient API?

X1900 can run classic DX9 titles just fine, so a DX11 title (of the same level of visual-quality as a period DX9 title) should run FASTER than the same graphics being run through a DX9 renderer.
 
Because you're stuck with SM2 limits under the DX11 fallback.
 
socK said:
Because you're stuck with SM2 limits under the DX11 fallback.
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Right, so it should run better than the same graphics being run through a classic SM 2.0 DX9 renderer...

I get your point, though. SM 3.0 cards fall into a bit of an awkward pocket (because supporting SM 3.0 is redundant, from a feature perspective, while SM 4.0 is also supported).

My original point stands, though. DX API version is nolonger directly linked to hardware shader model.
 
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Unknown-One said:
Right, so it should run better than the same graphics being run through a classic SM 2.0 DX9 renderer...

I get your point, though. SM 3.0 cards fall into a bit of an awkward pocket (because supporting SM 3.0 is redundant, from a feature perspective, while SM 4.0 is also supported)
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How is it redundant?

My x1900 was an SM3 card, and there is no way to leverage those features under the DX11 path. Some limits were considerably loosened, like shader instruction counts. Plus I'd probably LOSE flexibility, because the DX9 vendor hax have no alternative in the new API.
 
Humm, I find it bizarre that I cannot find the full specs on the "XBox 360 4g" to find out what it says about which DirectX it uses or anything else.

All I can find is:

CPU: 3.2 GHz Triple Core IBM PowerPC
RAM: 512 MB GDDR3 SDRAM
GPU: ATI Xbox 360 - 256-bit - graphics acceleration

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16868105088
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Again, I just got the 4g version a couple years ago then added the 250g HD. I forget the specs for the "XBox 360 4g" right now tho I thought it was DX11 - anybody have all the accurate specs on it? Will it tell me in the dashboard? Anyway, I wondered if the "XBox 360 4g" would also get the DX12 update or not - at least maybe SOME of the features!?!?!?
 
socK said:
How is it redundant?
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Because SM 4.0 covers 100% of the feature set of SM 3.0. They would literally be implementing the same functionality twice.

That makes it redundant from a feature-support perspective, as I said previously.

Also note that it IS possible to run SM 3.0 code through DX10 and DX11. That's how DirectX 9.0 L works (the compatibility layer included with Windows Vista, 7, and 8 that allows DirectX 9 software to function).

JoseJones said:
Humm, I find it bizarre that I cannot find the full specs on the "XBox 360 4g" to find out what it says about which DirectX it uses or anything else.
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The hardware specs of the Xbox 360 havn't really changed... at all.

The biggest thing they did was transition the bulk of the console to a single-chip SoC, but they were careful to keep performance and supported features absolutely identical to previous versions of the console.
 
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The X360 uses specialized version of DirectX, much like the X1 uses a specialized version of DX11 (DirectX 11.X).
 
Unknown-One said:
Because SM 4.0 covers 100% of the feature set of SM 3.0. They would literally be implementing the same functionality twice.

That makes it redundant from a feature-support perspective, as I said previously.

Also note that it IS possible to run SM 3.0 code through DX10 and DX11. That's how DirectX 9.0 L works (the compatibility layer included with Windows Vista, 7, and 8 that allows DirectX 9 software to function).
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I don't get what kind of logic you're going for here, my x1900 was not an SM 4 card, it was SM 3 hardware... which I can't take advantage of. There's a gap.

Then you have weird cases like instancing for example, which got official support under SM 3 hardware. Feature level 9_3 has it as being supported... yet the shader model used is still 2, because logic.
 
socK said:
I don't get what kind of logic you're going for here, my x1900 was not an SM 4 card, it was SM 3 hardware... which I can't take advantage of. There's a gap.
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I never said the x1900 was an SM 4.0 card. What are you talking about? :confused:

I was simply pointing out that implementing explicit support for SM 3.0 in DX11 would be redundant feature-wise (because SM 4.0 supports all the same features as SM 3.0).

I never said this didn't leave a feature gap on SM 3.0 cards (obviously, support for such cards isn't totally ideal under DX11). But it really doesn't make sense for them to implement the same features a second time, in a less-efficient format, just to support some relatively ancient hardware (especially when effected cards can run SM 2.0 as a fallback).

Fact remains, you could write a DX11 renderer and run it on an x1900. My point still stands, DX API version isn't directly tied to hardware shader model support anymore.

socK said:
Then you have weird cases like instancing for example, which got official support under SM 3 hardware. Feature level 9_3 has it as being supported... yet the shader model used is still 2, because logic.
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Look a little closer at how the 9-series feature levels work: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476876(v=vs.85).aspx

They're all technically Shader Model 4.0 sub-modes. They're just subsets of features from the SM 4.0 feature level.
 
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I don't see the need to nitpick over such minor details. Just ask yourself if MS has any interest in putting DX12 on the xbox 360. Ask yourself this. I'm also 100% sure it isn't possible to get full feature compatibility with DX12. But the bigger obvious issue is that MS won't do it even despite the capability issue. They have no interest in that since XB1 is their current console.

So why are we essentially arguing semantics and nitpicking such silly things? Why? The xbox 360 just isn't getting DX12. End of story. It didn't get DX11 either, because the hardware doesn't support the most useful features of DX11. Also, the 360 used a forked version of DX9. Not the same as the PC version of DX9. The 360 version of DX *did* allow direct hardware access. No offense Unknown-One, but you have a habit of doing this. Nitpicking over minor details and arguing them. I'm totally not trying to be rude or anything here, but you're nitpicking over things that aren't necessary. The 360 isn't getting DX12. That's what spurred this conversation and the fact that the 360 won't get DX12 should end it.

Why are we talking about this nonsense with the 360? Why? How is this even remotely interesting when it's clear that the xbox 360 isn't getting DX12. The 360 already has a modified API - a forked DX9 if you will - that allows direct hardware access.
 
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JoseJones said:
Humm, I find it bizarre that I cannot find the full specs on the "XBox 360 4g" to find out what it says about which DirectX it uses or anything else.

All I can find is:



Again, I just got the 4g version a couple years ago then added the 250g HD. I forget the specs for the "XBox 360 4g" right now tho I thought it was DX11 - anybody have all the accurate specs on it? Will it tell me in the dashboard? Anyway, I wondered if the "XBox 360 4g" would also get the DX12 update or not - at least maybe SOME of the features!?!?!?
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It's same ancient hardware and "4g" part doesn't change the fact (they have only made it more power efficient, specs are still same). It will not get DX12. Zero point. Devs can access 360 hardware with low level apis already and all the features that the hardware can support is already supported. You can just forget about it.
 
xoleras said:
I don't see the need to nitpick over such minor details. Just ask yourself if MS has any interest in putting DX12 on the xbox 360.
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I never said they had any interest in it.

I was simply pointing out that DX11 and 12 can technically target the hardware in the Xbox 360. The API could be used with the 360's hardware if Microsoft wanted to bother. Feature levels allow targeting fairly old hardware while using the latest API.

xoleras said:
I'm also 100% sure it isn't possible to get full feature compatibility with DX12.
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Never said it was. That's why I brought up feature levels. They let you run the latest API on down-level hardware by restricting the available feature set to those supported by the hardware you're targeting.

xoleras said:
So why are we essentially arguing semantics and nitpicking such silly things? Why?
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Hardly semantics. You said DX11 requires Shader Model 5.x hardware. That was fully incorrect.

Weather or not Microsoft will allow DX12 onto the Xbox 360 is a matter for a different discussion entirely, but the fact remains that the hardware in the 360 is technically target-able by the latest DirectX API. (Please note: I am not, nor have I ever, said that this means it will actually happen).

xoleras said:
No offense Unknown-One, but you have a habit of doing this. Nitpicking over minor details and arguing them.
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Saying DX11 requires SM 5.0 hardware is hardly a minor detail. There are plenty of examples of DirectX 11 renderers running on SM 4.0 hardware.

xoleras said:
I'm totally not trying to be rude or anything here, but you're nitpicking over things that aren't necessary. The 360 isn't getting DX12.
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I never said it was, I was simply correcting your claim that DX11 somehow requires SM 5.0 hardware when, in reality, it doesn't.
 
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I was just asking a sincere question about the newer "XBox 360 4g" DX specs. I never expected it to get full DX12, I was just wondering if the newer "XBox 360 4g" would get *ANY* DX update at all since all those DX11 GPU's were able to get DX12 with an update mentioned at the DX12 event yesterday.

I mention "XBox 360 4g" just to distinguish from the other older versions. From what I gather here, there's no DX11 on those systems - they are still DX9? Seriously? Shit, I just got it a couple years ago and DX11 had already been out so, why didn't they make the "XBox 360 4g" up-to-date on the Direct X?

DirectX 11

Microsoft unveiled DirectX 11 at the Gamefest 08 event in Seattle, with the major scheduled features including GPGPU support (DirectCompute), and Direct3D 11 with tessellation support[29][30] and improved multi-threading support to assist video game developers in developing games that better utilize multi-core processors.[31] Direct3D 11 runs on Windows Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8. Parts of the new API such as multi-threaded resource handling can be supported on Direct3D 9/10/10.1-class hardware. Hardware tessellation and Shader Model 5.0 require Direct3D 11 supporting hardware.[32] Microsoft has since released the Direct3D 11 Technical Preview.[33] Direct3D 11 is a strict superset of Direct3D 10.1 — all hardware and API features of version 10.1 are retained, and new features are added only when necessary for exposing new functionality. This helps to keep backwards compatibility with previous versions of DirectX.

Microsoft released the Final Platform Update for Windows Vista on October 27, 2009, which was 5 days after the initial release of Windows 7 (launched with Direct3D 11 as a base standard).

DirectX 11.1 is included in Windows 8. It supports WDDM 1.2 for increased performance, features improved integration of Direct2D, Direct3D, and DirectCompute, and includes DirectXMath, XAudio2, and XInput libraries from the XNA framework. It also features stereoscopic 3D support for gaming and video.[34]

DirectX 11.2 is included in Windows 8.1 (including the RT version) and Windows Server 2012 R2.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_11
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One
 
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JoseJones said:
I was just asking a sincere question about the newer "XBox 360 4g" DX specs. I never expected it to get full DX12, I was just wondering if the newer "XBox 360 4g" would get *ANY* DX update at all since all those DX11 GPU's were able to get DX12 with an update mentioned at the DX12 event yesterday.
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The Xbox 360 4gb units have exactly the same hardware capabilities as all previous Xbox 360s. Nothing more, nothing less.

Aside from using less power and being cooler/quieter, the newest versions of the 360 behave identically to the very first revision of the 360. This is by design to ensure a consistent experience.
 
Ok, thanks - I gotcha. It's disappointing but, it's old news now - and history. I seriously thought they would've at least updated the DX.

Unknown-One said:
The Xbox 360 4gb units have exactly the same hardware capabilities as all previous Xbox 360s. Nothing more, nothing less.

Aside from using less power and being cooler/quieter, the newest versions of the 360 behave identically to the very first revision of the 360. This is by design to ensure a consistent experience.
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JoseJones said:
Ok, thanks - I gotcha. It's disappointing but, it's old news now - and history. I seriously thought they would've at least updated the DX.
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I'm sure they've added to the Xbox 360's version of DirectX over the years.

But the capabilities of the hardware the API is running on have remained identical.
 
Well, could we just apply logic then?

Case #1: Hardware support
The Xenos GPU is R520-based so we know it's Shader Model 3.0, but it's also customized because it has programmable shaders which were later used in R600 GPUs-- Radeon 2000 and 3000 series.

AMD stated they'll support DirectX 12 on all GCN-based GPUs. That means as far down as the Radeon 7000 series. That would entail Shader Model 5.0 support for DirectX 11.2. Also, Mantle is only supported on GCN-based architecture, so it is unlikely any VLIW or older architecture will support Mantle or DirectX 12.

Microsoft has stated no such support for DirectX 12 for Xbox 360, but Xbox ONE. Why? Xbox ONE is using a custom Radeon 7790-equivalent GPU.

Thus, one can conclude that DirectX 12 will require Shader Model 5.0-compatible GPUs which is something the Xenos GPU does not have.

But, that also means AMD should be able to support DirectX 12 down to Radeon 5000 series cards using the older VLIW architecture. Since AMD only announced support for GCN-based architecture GPUs and not the older VLIW-based graphics hardware, therefore the Radeon 5000 and 6000 series will not support newer features of DirectX 12 in drivers.

The Xenos GPU supported a modified DirectX 9.0c API compiled for PowerPC architecture and the custom R520 GPU due to the programmable shaders.

Since it supported a modified DirectX 9.0c and Xenos is SM 3.0-ish, one would assume that Shader Model 3.0 supported all features of DirectX 9.0c and then some (due to the programmable shaders).

Therefore, if AMD Radeon 7000 series and higher support DirectX 12 on GCN architecture based on AMD's statement, then Shader Model 5.0 hardware supports all features of DirectX 11.2 AND DirectX 12.0.

However, because Xenos is SM 3.0 and not SM 5.0, and is not a GCN-based GPU, the Xbox 360 will not support DirectX 12 based on that logic alone due to different architectures and feature support.
​
Case #2: Game console support
Since Microsoft only announced support for Xbox ONE and not Xbox 360, it would be logical to conclude that they will not support or port DirectX 12 to the Xbox 360.

Due to Xbox ONE being a newer console for the company and the Xbox 360 being over (or nearly) 9 years old now, it is unlikely Microsoft will financially spend the extra resources to back-port DirectX 12 to Shader Model 3.0-equivalent hardware.

Therefore, Xbox 360 will not receive DirectX 12 support.

It wouldn't make any logical sense to support older hardware beyond its prime for any company, especially financial sense. No network router company releases firmware for routers older than three or five years old. No OEM laptop manufacturer releases drivers for laptops older than three or four years old either.

Video game consoles tend to lose support around the 5 or 10 year mark, and the Xbox 360 is nearing it. It will be unlikely to see more newer games released beyond the ten year mark for the Xbox 360 like with previous video game consoles, as the number of games released for it will gradually decrease after ten years.

Thus, only Xbox ONE and future consoles from Microsoft will support DirectX 12.
​
Case #3: Operating system support
If we conclude that DirectX 12 supports Shader Model 5.0 hardware that also supported DirectX 11 and DirectX 11.2, then that would mean Windows 7 should support all features of DirectX 12.

However, we will not see support for DirectX 12 in Windows XP because, one, DirectX 10 does not support or install into Windows XP nor DirectX 11, and, two, Microsoft is ending support for consumers and many businesses using Windows XP. It is unlikely to logically support an older operating system like with an older video game console such as the Xbox 360.

Vista should support DirecctX 12, but not all of its features, but it is unlikely as well that Microsoft will make DirectX 12 compatible with another older operating system that they no longer support either.

So, only Windows 7 may support DirectX 12 and will be compatible. Windows 8 and 8.1 and higher are guaranteed to support DirectX 12 and will be compatible.

But, we all know Microsoft that by this point if they only allow DirectX 11.2 features to be supported in Windows 8.1 but not Windows 8 or Windows 7, and DirectX 10 in Vista and higher but not in Windows XP, then one can assume Microsoft will likely drop Windows 7 support for DirectX 12 as that operating system gets older. Therefore, Windows 7, based on past decisions by Microsoft, will not likely support newer features of DirectX 12 based on that logic alone.
​
 
euskalzabe said:
This statement suggests you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. DX12 doesn't require new HW, thus the soon to be released Maxwell will be the 3rd generation DX12 class HW release.
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I understand it doesn't require new hardware but will current hardware run the specs of dx12 with ease. Thats the question mostly. When directx10 came out all the first generation cards were slow. Same with directx9 and directx11. First generation cards were always slow. It might be the only case where you won't really need new hardware to get optimal results. I still think Mantle will run faster at the end of the day. Have to see.
 
xoleras said:
I don't see the need to nitpick over such minor details. Just ask yourself if MS has any interest in putting DX12 on the xbox 360. Ask yourself this. I'm also 100% sure it isn't possible to get full feature compatibility with DX12. But the bigger obvious issue is that MS won't do it even despite the capability issue. They have no interest in that since XB1 is their current console.

So why are we essentially arguing semantics and nitpicking such silly things? Why? The xbox 360 just isn't getting DX12. End of story. It didn't get DX11 either, because the hardware doesn't support the most useful features of DX11. Also, the 360 used a forked version of DX9. Not the same as the PC version of DX9. The 360 version of DX *did* allow direct hardware access. No offense Unknown-One, but you have a habit of doing this. Nitpicking over minor details and arguing them. I'm totally not trying to be rude or anything here, but you're nitpicking over things that aren't necessary. The 360 isn't getting DX12. That's what spurred this conversation and the fact that the 360 won't get DX12 should end it.

Why are we talking about this nonsense with the 360? Why? How is this even remotely interesting when it's clear that the xbox 360 isn't getting DX12. The 360 already has a modified API - a forked DX9 if you will - that allows direct hardware access.
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OMG what a man!
 
So they have been working on this for supposedly 4 years already and its going to be over 1.5 more years before we actually get it? Does that progress not seem a little slow?
 
Hmm according to this article on TechReport, Nvidia is saying that to be able to use the full suite of DX12 features you will need a new (unreleased) GPU. Which to me is completely understandable as to get TrueAudio on the AMD side you need a current GPU. Wonder how much of a difference having or not having these features will make in DX12 games? Will AMD 290(x) users have to upgrade to see the full benefit of DX12 also?

Just something to ponder. What do you think?
 
So, as far as current GPU's go, when will see this DX12 update?
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Terpfen said:
As stated multiple times; preview in 2H 2014, full release 2H 2015.
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That was referring to the release of DX12 not specifically the update for already existing GPU's. I was asking specifically about the DX12 update for already existing GPU's, especially NVidia.

Unless you can find a credible source to substantiate the claim it remains unclear.
 
JoseJones said:
That was referring to the release of DX12 not specifically the update for already existing GPU's. I was asking specifically about the DX12 update for already existing GPU's, especially NVidia.

Unless you can find a credible source to substantiate the claim it remains unclear.
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The same dates apply. It's unclear to you because you are making a distinction that Microsoft is not.
 
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