PS4 Will Out-Power Most PCs For Years To Come

[teletran8]

How is the fact that I am “Crazy”, relevant?

Why so serious?

 

[Red Falcon]

Firstly, with IGPs chips, doesn’t the memory sharing with CPUs, which use integrated GPUs, work the other way around? Isn’t it the case that the GPU shares the CPUs memory? With this PS4 architecture, isn’t it the case that the CPU shares the GPUs DDR5 memory.

PC (IGP) and 360: GPU shares CPU memory.
PS4: CPU shares GPU memory.

It's the exact same thing though, both are sharing the same memory, so there is bound to be some kind of a performance hit, but if I'm totally off my mark, then more power to them.
I still doubt that the PS4 is going to blow any modern PC away though, as the CPU is unimpressive and will be more of the issue at this point than the GPU.

PC (GPU) and PS3: Dedicated memory for both chips.
Personally, I prefer systems with dedicated memory, but that's just me.

If the PS4's unified/shared memory architecture blows everything out of the water with GDDR5, then I might change my stance on this.
But until then, and judging from what I have seen and experienced with systems in the past with shared memory, I will be sticking to this opinion for the time being.

 

[Red Falcon]

Why so serious?

He was having a discussion with me.

 

[teletran8]

He was having a discussion with me.

I'll let you get all Quasimodo with the "shared" intricacies of PS4 with Mr.SuperSerious9000 then.

 

[octoberasian]

And, that 176GB/s memory bandwidth is much greater than the DDR3 bandwidth that the Xbox 720 will use. It's also greater than the memory bandwidth available to standard AMD APUs as well.

All-in-all, the way I see it is this:
- We have a customized MOBILE processor-- 2x Jaguar compute units (4 cores/unit) running at 1.6GHz
- We have 8GB GDDR5 at 176GB/sec
- We have a modified mobile Radeon HD 7970M (desktop Radeon 7850-equivalent) at 1.83TFLOPS
- We have an x86-64 SoC processor with a possibly integrated southbridge (USB, SATA, etc.)

This is very much a very souped-up Ouya system given that the parts are mobile in origin. Ouya has a quad core 1.7GHz Tegra 3 (Cortex A9) processor. The PS4 is using a (possibly) more powerful mobile processor at 8 cores total running at 1.6GHz, and a more powerful GPU. It's going to be up to the developers to properly utilize this.

Will it out-power gaming computers? No, but maybe the bargain-priced Intel HD-based computers from Walmart that probably can't play certain demanding games at 1080p at medium settings.

Take a look at the best mobile game on the market today. Now, consider that that game is running on a powerful mobile processor from Qualcomm, Nvidia Tegra, Apple Ax, or Samsung Exynos. And, that processor is running between 1.4 to 1.7 GHz at dual or quad core configuration. Consider that fact they are paired with much weaker mobile GPUs.

Yet, these games have graphics comparable to a PS2 or early DirectX 9 game.

When you pair a possibly more powerful mobile processor-- 8-core Jaguar SoC-- with a more powerful mobile GPU, the games should look as good as many games today running at 1080p and medium settings. That and the hardware, unlike computers today, and operating system (stupid Android fragmentation) is fixed. This should allow better exploitation and utilization of the hardware to the best of its maximum performance, just like any other gaming console. That's my assumption at the moment.

The PS4, nor any console for that matter, is meant to outdo a dedicated, custom-built PC. They're meant to be an all-in-one, ready-to-use media and gaming device for the living room or bedroom. You turn it on, little configuration and hardware setup, and you can play games right away.

And, unless you have a souped-up gaming PC, it goes turn it on, POST screen, Windows logo screen, log in, wait for background processes and programs to load, launch Steam/Origin/Desura, launch game. Play.

Console is basically turn it on, hear fancy music and watch animated logos, insert disc, launch game. That'll never happen with your $2000 gaming PC.

If the PS4 comes in at $399, a computer with equivalent or superior parts to run games at 1080p and medium/medium-high settings will cost hundreds of dollars more especially when you consider the price of a Windows installation disc.

A gaming console in a home with a gaming PC is meant to complement but not supplant or replace the computer. It'll play the games that will not be available on the PC platform. Blame the gaming developers though when the console port is no better looking than its console brethren.

 

[DW-UK]

Quote: “The down-side to this is that it may also result in bad console ports, where all modern gaming systems have dedicated memory for both the CPU and GPU, not shared/unified memory.
If GPU memory is eaten up, the game will start to dump the graphics memory into system memory, which will cause degrades in performance, as shown by many users on here.”

Yes, the PS4 might just "Out-Power Most PCs For Years To Come".

The upside is that something like the Steam Box will get a better position, and it could be the beginnings of the Game PC (gPC) and Game Pad (gPad), as apposed to the death of the Desktop PC. It could also be the beginning of the end the Graphics Card (which never seems to get fully/properly used by most games).

See how things are evolving, and how it is all starting to make sense.

 

[Red Falcon]

Yes, the PS4 might just "Out-Power Most PCs For Years To Come".

I'm sorry, but an APU quad-core with these specs will not out-do most PCs for years to come, in fact far from it.
I can't agree with you at all on that.

The Jaguar APU doesn't even have the processing power of my Phenom II X4, let alone any Intel Core i processors.
This is why I said, the biggest limitation of this console will be the CPU, even if the memory bandwidth it has access to is huge.


@ octoberasian:
Nice write-up, but I think you are confusing the term "mobile processor".
The Jaguar APU is an x86 processor with OOO execution, which the ARM processors in Ouya do not have, and is far more powerful and capable than any ARM processor on the market.

That said, the Jaguar APU still doesn't compare to the processors found in modern systems.
The only thing the PS4 has going for it is the GPU and large amount of memory for devs to work with, which will hopefully bring in better textures/surfaces/lighting without constant texture popping.

 

[DW-UK]

PC (IGP) and 360: GPU shares CPU memory.
PS4: CPU shares GPU memory.

It's the exact same thing though, both are sharing the same memory, so there is bound to be some kind of a performance hit, but if I'm totally off my mark, then more power to them.
I still doubt that the PS4 is going to blow any modern PC away though, as the CPU is unimpressive and will be more of the issue at this point than the GPU.

PC (GPU) and PS3: Dedicated memory for both chips.
Personally, I prefer systems with dedicated memory, but that's just me.

If the PS4's unified/shared memory architecture blows everything out of the water with GDDR5, then I might change my stance on this.
But until then, and judging from what I have seen and experienced with systems in the past with shared memory, I will be sticking to this opinion for the time being.

<Argument>
They are never going to develop a game for a high end PC. There is almost no point in going there (as a developer). As a gamer, you might want to go there if you want multi monitor, 2K or 4K resolution, and use it for other things.

As a developer, it is about the game engine architecture (not graphics engine either) fitting the hardware architecture, fitting the game content. It is also about throw-away hardware (like with smart phones (and Graphics Cards)), every 2 or 3 years.

 

[Red Falcon]

It could also be the beginning of the end the Graphics Card (which never seems to get fully/properly used by most games).

See how things are evolving, and how it is all starting to make sense.

Just, no.
Graphics cards aren't properly used by shitty console ports due to the restrictions of existing consoles.

If anything, this next generation of console ports should push dedicated GPUs even further.
The only thing that makes sense is that when a game is designed for a PC system, not a console, it most definitely pushes GPUs to their limits.

As an example, I remember when Bioshock was released in 2007:
The PC version pushed my system to its limits, and it seemed that only the 8800GTS 640MB or HD3850 could run it at full settings (with DX10).

The console version of Bioshock was incredibly watered down (no Rapture pun intended, heh), and looked as though the game was set to medium-low settings at best, and certainly didn't run natively at 1080p on the consoles.

 

[filip]

Don't know if this is still in the specks but I read the ps4 was going to have 60fps with 1200x800 res......no link, but i saw that in another ps4 will blow the PC out of the water article. That seems like to much fps the PC is doomed NOOOOOOOO

 

[Red Falcon]

<Argument>
They are never going to develop a game for a high end PC.QUOTE]

Um, here's a list of a few games developed for a high-end PC (non a console port) throughout the years of the current-gen consoles:

FEAR 1 and 2
Bioshock 1 and 2
STALKER series
Crysis


The consoles choked on all of these titles, and these are just a handful.
The consoles played all of these at medium-low settings and did not run natively at 1080p.

So wtf are you talking about?

 

[DW-UK]

I'm sorry, but an APU quad-core with these specs will not out-do most PCs for years to come, in fact far from it.
I can't agree with you at all on that.

The Jaguar APU doesn't even have the processing power of my Phenom II X4, let alone any Intel Core i processors.
This is why I said, the biggest limitation of this console will be the CPU, even if the memory bandwidth it has access to is huge.

I would expect that there could exist a certain arrangement of Jaguar based CPUs that don't have the processing power of your Phenom II X4, however as a “Game Engine” platform, the Jaguar APU configuration, as used in the PS4, is probably far superior. I would go further and argue that you have never owned a system that can run the next generation of “Game Engines” better.

 

[Red Falcon]

Don't know if this is still in the specks but I read the ps4 was going to have 60fps with 1200x800 res......no link, but i saw that in another ps4 will blow the PC out of the water article. That seems like to much fps the PC is doomed NOOOOOOOO

Until we physcially see a PS4 actually playing a game natively, not a "PC video demo", everything stated by Sony is unproven.
I highly doubt that the PS4 will kill the PC, lol.

Like I said, if anything, this should push PC's even further with higher-end console ports.

 

[DW-UK]

<Argument>
They are never going to develop a game for a high end PC.QUOTE]

Um, here's a list of a few games developed for a high-end PC (non a console port) throughout the years of the current-gen consoles:

FEAR 1 and 2
Bioshock 1 and 2
STALKER series
Crysis


The consoles choked on all of these titles, and these are just a handful.
The consoles played all of these at medium-low settings and did not run natively at 1080p.

So wtf are you talking about?

wtf I am talking about is the new PS4 (PC-based) architecture, not wtf they have done with the old PC architecture.

(BTW: FEAR 2, Bioshock 1 and 2 runs at max on medium to low-end PC today.)

 

[DW-UK]

Just, no.
Graphics cards aren't properly used by shitty console ports due to the restrictions of existing consoles.

If anything, this next generation of console ports should push dedicated GPUs even further.
The only thing that makes sense is that when a game is designed for a PC system, not a console, it most definitely pushes GPUs to their limits.

As an example, I remember when Bioshock was released in 2007:
The PC version pushed my system to its limits, and it seemed that only the 8800GTS 640MB or HD3850 could run it at full settings (with DX10).

The console version of Bioshock was incredibly watered down (no Rapture pun intended, heh), and looked as though the game was set to medium-low settings at best, and certainly didn't run natively at 1080p on the consoles.

Correct. Thanks for backing up my argument.

 

[hotstocks]

I have an SSD in my gaming computer,
it boots faster than my Xbox 360.
Next PC complaint?

 

[Red Falcon]

I would expect that there could exist a certain arrangement of Jaguar based CPUs that don't have the processing power of your Phenom II X4, however as a “Game Engine” platform, the Jaguar APU configuration, as used in the PS4, is probably far superior.

You just saw my link to the "Jaguar APU configuration", and no, I doubt that it is far superior.
Your statement just confirms that we will have console ports, but honestly, they shouldn't be as bad since they will be designed for an x86 processor.

Also, how will the APU in the PS4 be "far superior" to existing x86 processors?
In what way and how so?

The only way I could possibly see it being superior is if the games will be programmed to be specifically optimized for the particular processor.
Even then, I can't see how that would degrade performance of other x86 processors; this is x86 to x86, not Cell/PPC to x86.

Go to cpubenchmark.net and compare existing APUs to other processors, they tend to be pretty inferior in quite a few ways. (this is just on average, I get that it's not an end-all-be-all benchmark)

I would go further and argue that you have never owned a system that can run the next generation of “Game Engines” better.[/

You shouldn't judge person by their signature, we all have many other systems at our disposal.
Even the system in my sig can play BL2 at max settings @ 1080p, with PhysX set to low (if I had a slot for another GPU, it would be set to high), and I consistently get 50-60fps, with occational dips into the 40's depending on the areas.

So tell me, what does it take to run the "next generation" of game engines better?

 

[Red Falcon]

wtf I am talking about is the new PS4 (PC-based) architecture, not wtf they have done with the old PC architecture.

That has yet to be seen, and no one, not even you, can prove otherwise.
Until we physically see a PS4 physically playing games, we won't have that answer.

(BTW: FEAR 2, Bioshock 1 and 2 runs at max on medium to low-end PC today.)

What does that have to do with what I was talking about???
My point was that these games were designed with high-end PCs in mind (as you said no games ever were) and that the existing-gen consoles could not play them beyond medium-low settings, proving your point wrong.

FFS, read what I wrote, I gave you that courtesy at least.

 

[DW-UK]

Until we physcially see a PS4 actually playing a game natively, not a "PC video demo", everything stated by Sony is unproven.
I highly doubt that the PS4 will kill the PC, lol.

Like I said, if anything, this should push PC's even further with higher-end console ports.

Correct again on "higher-end console ports".

Console games will match or push high-end PCs even further. But then why bother buying a high end PC?

(BTW: The PS4 is a PC)

 

[Red Falcon]

Correct. Thanks for backing up my argument.

It didn't backup your argument, it proved it wrong by showing you games that were developed with high-end PCs in mind, that the consoles choked on, when you clearly stated that no games were ever developed with high-end PCs in mind.

 

[Red Falcon]

I have an SSD in my gaming computer,
it boots faster than my Xbox 360.
Next PC complaint?

The argument at hand isn't really boot speed...

 

[hotstocks]

Anyone who believes the PS4 will be faster than my computer at 1080p gaming,
I have a deal for you.
1) PM me and I will give you my Paypal address where you can send me $100 to $1000
dollars. If the PS4 is faster at 1080p games than my computer when it is released, I
will Paypal you back TEN TIMES the money you sent me.
2) If you are not willing to do option #1, which you think will give you ten times your
money, then you don't truly believe the PS4 will be faster than a PC right at its release,
yet alone 10 years later, so STFU.

 

[Red Falcon]

(BTW: The PS4 is a PC)

Really? I didn't realize that PC's used unified GDDR5 memory with the GPU.
Yes, the PS4 has an x86 processor. No, it is not a PC.

But then why bother buying a high end PC?

You need to be stripped of your [H] title. Just wow.

 

[Red Falcon]

Anyone who believes the PS4 will be faster than my computer at 1080p gaming,
I have a deal for you.
1) PM me and I will give you my Paypal address where you can send me $100 to $1000
dollars. If the PS4 is faster at 1080p games than my computer when it is released, I
will Paypal you back TEN TIMES the money you sent me.
2) If you are not willing to do option #1, which you think will give you ten times your
money, then you don't truly believe the PS4 will be faster than a PC right at its release,
yet alone 10 years later, so STFU.

Actually I wouldn't give you my money because even if I were right, I doubt that I would ever see it again.

 

[xorbe]

Is it really 8 core? Seems like a higher clocked 4 or 6 core might play out better.

 

[DW-UK]

What does that have to do with what I was talking about???
My point was that these games were designed with high-end PCs in mind (as you said no games ever were) and that the existing-gen consoles could not play them beyond medium-low settings, proving your point wrong.

FFS, read what I wrote, I gave you that courtesy at least.

High-end PCs from years ago. The new PS4 PC is better. Plus I don't remember saying that "no games ever were" developed for high-end PCs. I just said that they ain't going to do it anymore. You backed me up by saying that things have evolved so that they are developed for the console, and ported to the PC.

Read what you wrote, You gave you that courtesy at least. (I hope)

 

[DW-UK]

Really? I didn't realize that PC's used unified GDDR5 memory with the GPU.
Yes, the PS4 has an x86 processor. No, it is not a PC.



You need to be stripped of your [H] title. Just wow.

Did you realise that PCs used IGPs and unified/shared memory, or have you forgot already?

(The [H] title stands for HarseHole. You can [H]ave it)

 

[Red Falcon]

High-end PCs from years ago. The new PS4 PC is better. Plus I don't remember saying that "no games ever were" developed for high-end PCs. I just said that they ain't going to do it anymore. You backed me up by saying that things have evolved so that they are developed for the console, and ported to the PC.

Just because the PS4 has an x86 processor in it does not make it a PC... 10 years of hardware engineering and you don't know this???
And saying games developed won't be designed for high-end PCs in mind, that's quite a bit of bullshit if I do say so myself.

I also never said "things have evolved so that they are developed for the console and ported to the PC", that has been done for decades now.
I stated that the newer console ports would push PCs further, that was it.

That doesn't mean that no more games will be developed with high-end PCs in mind, though.
I'm starting to question all of your years of knowledge in those fields now...

Read what you wrote, You gave you that courtesy at least. (I hope)

 

[Red Falcon]

Did you realise that PCs used IGPs and unified/shared memory, or have you forgot already?

(The [H] title stands for HarseHole. You can [H]ave it)

Not all systems do this, ones that have the IGP function on the mobo/processor disabled do not share memory with the IGP.
So according to what you just said, an AM3+ system with a 970 northbridge uses shared memory for a non-existent IGP, please tell me more...

 

[Red Falcon]

The new PS4 PC is better.

Once again, this has yet to be proven, and you are talking out of your ass.
So until then, do us a favor and please STFU about this point, ok?

It's not proven, so quit acting and talking as though it were proven fact.

 

[DW-UK]

Not all systems do this, ones that have the IGP function on the mobo/processor disabled do not share memory with the IGP.
So according to what you just said, an AM3+ system with a 970 northbridge uses shared memory for a non-existent IGP, please tell me more...

I am not arguing as to whether the GPU on the IGP is enabled. I am saying that: as far as I am concerned the PS4 is a PC, and I don’t accept the fact that it shares DDR5 (or DDR3 memory) makes it not a PC. What makes it a PC is the x86/x64 instruction set, memory map, plus the various buses transfer protocols, along with IRQs, DMAs etc. In addition to the fact that most of the stories on the Internet say that it is a PC.

 

[Lonewolff]

No way a console will be more powerfull than a high spec'd PC - ever.

__________________
One Rep Max Calculator

 

[DW-UK]

Once again, this has yet to be proven, and you are talking out of your ass.
So until then, do us a favor and please STFU about this point, ok?

It's not proven, so quit acting and talking as though it were proven fact.

The new PS4 PC is better than the PC that you have.

You don't have to be so ashamed, mine is only an Intel i3 530 @ 4.4GHz, plus 8GB of CAS 8 DDR3, plus an ATI 5870. Still, it is much better than yours.

 

[Red Falcon]

I am not arguing as to whether the GPU on the IGP is enabled. I am saying that: as far as I am concerned the PS4 is a PC, and I don’t accept the fact that it shares DDR5 (or DDR3 memory) makes it not a PC. What makes it a PC is the x86/x64 instruction set, memory map, plus the various buses transfer protocols, along with IRQs, DMAs etc. In addition to the fact that most of the stories on the Internet say that it is a PC.

Well, if you can successfully run Windows, x86 Linux, and x86 UNIX on the PS4, then I'll agree with you.
I'm not holding my breath for that though.

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, as many consider smartphones utilizing x86 processors to be a PC, when they are no closer to being a PC than are the ARM-based smartphones; though the term "PC" is pretty anachronistic this day and age, and could *technically* be used for almost any device of this nature.


I'm still waiting on your answer on why the Jaguar APU would be more powerful than other modern x86 processors, btw.

 

[DW-UK]

No way a console will be more powerfull than a high spec'd PC - ever.

__________________
One Rep Max Calculator

Probably easy to prove to be a true fact. However, the PS4 PC will probably perform better at running future games engines. Most of that high spec PC will be under utilised. It may also possess some bottlenecks.

 

[Red Falcon]

The new PS4 PC is better than the PC that you have.

You don't have to be so ashamed, mine is only an Intel i3 530 @ 4.4GHz, plus 8GB of CAS 8 DDR3, plus an ATI 5870. Still, it is much better than yours.

Ha ha...?
Just because one drives a Ferrari doesn't mean they know shit about cars, if you get my drift.

If name calling and insulting the system in my sig is all the further you can take your argument, I'm done with you.
35 years as a software engineer and 10 years as a hardware engineer, and this is all the better your argument gets? Fucking p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c.

It's ok though, I've known software engineers who have worked for over 40-50 years in their fields, and they don't even know what memory bandwidth or transfer rates are, so, yeah. Lame.

 

[Red Falcon]

Probably easy to prove to be a true fact. However, the PS4 PC will probably perform better at running future games engines. Most of that high spec PC will be under utilised. It may also possess some bottlenecks.

What bottlenecks exist in modern high-end PCs?
WTF are you on about now???

, the PS4 PC will probably perform better at running future games engines.

That's your (base-less) opinion and it has yet to be proven.

 

[Red Falcon]

I just realized something!
DW-UK is the 'heatlesssun' of Sony and the PS4!!! ZOMG!

 

[hotstocks]

Another way to look at this.
The PS4 will be similar in size and power (cpu/gpu wise and Wattage wise) as the 17" gaming
laptops that will be out at the same time (around Holidays) made by Alienware or Cyberpower,
using intel quad cores and Nvidia graphics. That is a fair and valid point, the PS4 and a laptop both made around Christmas will be about the same computing/gpu power and wattage used. Any good gaming desktop will be four times the size, use three times the wattage (power), have an i7 and $400-$500 graphics card. It is not a fair comparison, the desktop will OBLITERATE both the laptop and PS4. Anyone care to disagree with this has not owned every game console in the last 20 years as well as 6 laptops and 10 desktops.

 

[hotstocks]

Still waiting on any takers for my Paypal bet.....


I thought so.