Monitors make me sad... Gaming on 120hz or IPS panel?

Just get the 120hz for gaming only, and keep your old monitor alongside it. Games use HOR+ which utilizes a locked vertical because they use a "virtual lens", which is like virtual cinematography in cgi work. That is, they emulate a real world lens, and with a real lens, any wider aspect lens always shows more of the scene. So what I am saying is, a 1080p 16:9 would be no loss in gaming from an aspect ratio point of view compared to a 16:10. In fact you would be better off running 16:9 aspect on a 16:10 screen when gaming imo.
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Or if I may suggest - get one of those korean 2560x1440 panels for the desktop real estate and vertical (as well as uniformity, color, ppi, and gorgeous imagery) while the deal is hot at around $400 shipped.. suffer the motion smearing on the ips in games and start saving up for a 120hz TN to go alongside it when hopefully their prices go down eventually. They are priced very high currently. At one point there was a sale on one of the samsung 27" display port versions for $399 at both amazon and tiger direct... and I'm pretty sure they were at around $550 at one point.. but currently most models are around $650 for the 27" which is very high imo.
 
I think what you need is accurate testimony from someone who knows what you're asking, and not just opinions and guesses, without addressing your questions. This is a long read, but alot of info here for you.

The problem with your quest on a new monitor is this: You want to have your cake and eat it too, currently, you can't do that. I'll explain

There are no 120hz IPS monitors. So if you want a 120hz screen, you have to settle with slight color fading, not the best picture, or best blacks, but alter your Contrast, Brightness, Vibrance settings and it's plenty fine.

Want the best picture? Ok, IPS, but you're stuck at 60hz which......let me explain.


The people that have never gamed on 120hz don't know what they're missing. Right now, no matter how much vid card power you have, your monitor will not display anymore than 60 frames in a second. The rest is just lost. Not only does that mean all movement and animation isn't as smooth as it could be, but that means you're missing frames of gameplay that you never see. Imagine playing at 30 frames per sec, and now think of how much smoother (more buttery) 60 frames a sec is. Double that again, and you see what 120hz will do. I've had a 30" IPS HP ZR30, best picture there is, best res there is. And I went to triple 27" 120hz screens for tri-screen at 120hz. Everything is about comprimise. I comprimised on resolution and slight coloring to get 120hz and 3 screens.

You will have to comprimise as well. Have best picture, or have buttery smoothness. Can't have both currently. You have to decide what is most important to you. Are you a picture elitist, who MUST have the best best best picture.....Will call IPS 100% quality, well a 120hz screen is probably 70-80% of that quality, and even better once you adjust your Brightness down a smidge, Contrast up a smidge, and Vibrance up a smidge. Once I did that on my Asus VG278H, the picture is great, I don't miss IPS, and I'm 120hz buttery smooth.

HOWEVER....you have to understand something about 120hz. 120hz is doing NOTHING different to your vid card. It's not going to give you a performance boost by itself unless your vid card is capable of putting out close to 120 frames per sec. You see, 120hz monitor.....think of it as a hertz ceiling. Monitors you have now (LCD/LED kind) are limiting you to a 60fps ceiling. You're jumping up and hitting a 7ft. ceiling in a room. No matter how hard you jump, (vid card power), you're not going to go higher than that 7ft jump. You go to 120hz, and that doesn't help you jump anymore powerful, but it raises that room ceiling to 14ft. So now you can jump as hard as you can and you can jump alot higher.

What I mean is, 120hz doesn't do anything at all to your performance except give you the POTENTIAL to reach higher frames per second. YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE THE VIDEO POWER TO PUSH up to 120fps in order TO SEE the 120hz potential. If your current vid setup is only capable of getting you 60-80fps in your games, then 120hz panel isn't going to have as much an impact for you than if you were pushing out 100-120fps on your old monitor, then you switch to 120hz, THEN you'll really see the difference.

If you're not consistenly pulling 100-120+ fps in your games, then 120hz panel will do nothing for you. If gives you the POTENTIAL for buttery smooth, but you still have to have the vid power to push that.

I have SLI GTX580 lightning extremes and can run BF3 at ultra settings (1920x1080) and I get around 100-140fps depending on the scene, so I really notice the smoothness. It reminds me of that smoothness back in the CRT days of gaming.

Once you go 120hz, you can't go back to 60. It's like being on 60hz and trying to go back to 30hz. You've tasted better, so you can't go back.

I personally think that 120hz is worth it over IPS, (if you have the vid power to push 100-120+ fps that is). And I would know. I went from 30" bestest res. IPS picture there is, to 5760x1080 with 120hz potential. I can't push 100-120fps at 5760x1080 without turning down the settings, so my monitors are ahead of my vid card power. Vid cards will have to grow into them with future upgrades....But probably with a GTX790 I'll be able to hit 120+fps at max BF3 settings at 5760x1080. So Heaven awaits. 120hz is great, if you can push it, you'll never go back.

This morning I set everything back to 60hz, for a test, went into BF3, I even turned on vsync for no tearing, and the 60hz was just......ugh. Choppy, no buttery smooth. Affected my gameplay. Once you've had an awesome burger, McDonalds no longer cuts it. Etc. Etc. The 60hz guys don't know how green the grass is over here

Part of why it's hard to get people's opinions about 60hz/120hz is because it's like trying to describe to someone how good a song is. It's too hard to describe and we're all different. You HAVE to see the difference of 60hz and 120hz in order to understand. 120hz isn't BS hype. It's very real awesomesauce IF YOU HAVE THE vid power to push 120fps.

What I want you to do (which I did to really get the idea of 120hz) is to go to YouTUBE and look up every 120hz video you can find. It wasn't until I saw some example vids of the increased buttery smoothness on those vids playing BF3 that I really got the idea of what it's like. Forums are a waste of time. People can't describe a song to you, go listen to it off YouTube :p 120hz is not hype though.
NO person who went 120hz ever says "it's ok, but not as cool as I hoped"
 
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120hz.... no contest. As someone that has a 120hz and 60hz side by side on my desktop... the difference is night and day.

I would suggest going to a store that has one on display and trying it out for yourself. Enjoy your new monitor
 
It really depends. Do you only game on your computer? Do you break from gaming to do productivity related tasks with the same screen? Do you care about what the monitor looks like while not gaming? Do you want higher resolution (which TN doesn't offer)?

Asking myself those questions, I would go with an IPS panel. After using 2560x1440/1600 panels extensively, I simply cannot go back to the poor viewing angles / color shifting of TN panels regardless of refresh rate - and IPS panels can game just fine.

120hz is nice, but higher resolution and nearly double the pixels is more immersive to me; TN panels cannot offer higher than 1080p resolution. 1080p is pretty much a 5 year old resolution to me and I will not use such a low resolution on a 27 or 30 inch screen - I also absolutely cannot stand that all TN panels have color shifting even with dead on viewing. Panning my view on a 27 inch 120hz screen, I can see color shifting directly in front of it; not to mention that 1080p is absolutely horrible for windows on a 27 incher. I understand some prefer 120hz but I can never go back to a terrible TN.

It is highly subjective though. If you don't give two shits about image quality/color shifting/viewing angles/low resolution and only care about gaming, get a 120hz. Indeed it seems that some will stick with their TNs and CRTs even though they're low resolution and offer poor electronics/quality, there are some who will do nothing but 120hz regardless of how bad their screen looks outside of gaming. But everyone has to make their own choice -- Highly subjective, like I said.
 
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Objekt said:
Makes sense, I think I understand now. Also makes sense why the only 120 Hz LCDs are TN panels.

But are there any 120 Hz monitors in the 16:10 aspect ratio? I can't find any. That's a problem, so I guess I won't be buying an LCD monitor any time soon. I have no interest in "upgrading" to a shortscreen (16:9) monitor. It's not much of an upgrade, if I'm dropping 120 lines vs. the 1600x1200 I've enjoyed on my CRT.
Click to expand...

You're likely only going to find the old Viewsonic and Samsung 120s which all ran at 1680x1050

So, honestly, while you might not prefer the aspect ratio, you're still getting 'more' resolution from a 16:9 1080p display.
 
I am in a similar predicament when I sold my u2711 and received my u2713h. According to tftcentral, the u2713h is supposed to have better input lag than the u2711, personally this isn't the case. So, I have been researching to get a different panel with better input lag/response. I have narrowed down my choices to the u2312hm or u2412m, both prad.de and tftcentrals findings for the u2312hm agree that this monitor produces some of the best input lag/response time lag even compared to the leading TN panels. The u2412m is an excellent performer as well, taking the backseat against the u2312hm, it's still a solid panel even for FPS. Obviously you aren't going to get the best motion clarity compared to a 120hz panel + lightboost capability of some of the few that can support them. You are going to get better picture quality and viewing angles, whether that is necessary for a gaming panel is up for you to decide as many argue the difference is indistinguishable. IMO input lag/response time is more important than motion clarity, as I used to own a 120 hz panel and gave it up for an IPS panel with acceptable latency numbers and never looked back because of size and viewing angles. On top of that, the u2312hm and u2412m can be had for prices that puts them in a very competitive position when looking at those lightboost capable 120hz TN panels.

I am still contemplating though whether I should go with a TN 120hz light boost capable monitor or the u2312hm/u2412m. With that said, all those panels should be great for gaming, even FPS.

I should have read before posting, looks like OP chose a korean OCable IPS monitor.
 
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I had a VG278HE (the 144hz model) and while it did look smooth....I really couldn't tell the difference between that and my IPS locked at 60hz.

Certainly not enough of a difference to warrant the lesser picture of the TN.

My .02.
 
While I would love a very high resolution display (+ color uniformity) for desktop stuff, it is in the opposite direction of anything I would be interested in for gaming. By opposite direction I mean this:
--we have 60hz input LCD motion blurr-mess,
--120hz input LCD with increased motion tracking/more recent action per hz and around 1/2 as much blur (or slightly worse blur on the limited number of "overclockable" 120hz korean IPS)
--and finally something new, a 120hz + 1ms lightboost2 backlight strobing lcd with essentially zero blur. (The only other thing with essentially zero blur like that is a fw900 crt with its own considerable tradeoffs).

elvn said:
The 4k, "retina" , and QFHD (quad-full-hd 3840x2160) type displays are welcomed advances. Anything much over $1200 - $2k is still way too high for my taste though, especially with korean 2560x1440 's around for $350 which still look beautiful on stills/desktop use.
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For gaming, everything I've seen of these higher rez displays is 60hz input in the back and high response times, so won't have the increased "smoothness" from increased motion tracking of higher (120hz/120hz+) hz combined with very high fps. They also will be twice as blurry as a 120hz input gaming display during FoV movement(the entire scene blurs) and object movement (the objects blur across the still-standing player's viewpoint). For those following the 1ms lightboost2 backlight strobing threads, there is a 1080p lcd monitor capable of crt motion clarity (i.e. no blurring/smearing of the original high detail objects, textures, depth via bump mapping and other shaders during movement). So, while I would love a very high resolution display for desktop stuff, it is in the opposite direction of anything I would be interested in for gaming. By opposite direction I mean this:
we have 60hz motion blurr-mess, 120hz with increased motion tracking/more recent action per hz and around 1/2 as much blur, and finally something new, a 120hz + 1ms lightboost2 backlight strobing lcd with essentially zero blur. (The only other thing with essentially zero blur like that is a fw900 crt with its own considerable tradeoffs).
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Click to expand...

To get the full clarity "like a crt" , you need to maintain 100fps at 100hz , or 120fps at 120hz. You need to be using a 1ms Lighboost2 backlight, strobing as if it were 3D content but in 2D gaming (using a script/hack/ini to enable it in 2D currently). Lightboost2 only works on nvidia cards, and with a lightboost backlight 3D monitor.
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You don't need to use the "hack" if you have a stereoscopic 3d setup (monitor with emitter+glasses), you can just enable 3d in the game, then tab out and select a menu option. If your lightboost2 monitor did not have the emitter+glasses, you use a "hack". This includes a EDID override INF file, and a .reg file.
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Hardforum Thread:
ASUS/BENQ LightBoost owners!! Zero motion blur setting!
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Blurbuster's blog
Instructions for Zero Motion Blur on LightBoost LCD
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Mark Rejhon said:
Thanks for this, though this must be done carefully -- we need to make sure that people at least be able to understand this technology without an immediate "It isn't possible".
Here are some VERY important links to give out, for people who disbelieve it is possible. Some of your Reddit posts are now being downvoted, so it's important to prepare a good (but short) defense of the technology:


Also, as a headline, I prefer "Zero motion blur LCD's now possible (allowing CRT perfect sharp motion)."
Or even "Zero motion blur LCD's now possible, pixel persistence now bypassed by backlight strobing"
(and a link to the high-speed video being prominent -- forum threads are less trustworthy than video proof).
Click to expand...
 
Arklight said:
I had a VG278HE (the 144hz model) and while it did look smooth....I really couldn't tell the difference between that and my IPS locked at 60hz.

Certainly not enough of a difference to warrant the lesser picture of the TN.

My .02.
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The two top runners for 1ms lightboost2 snchronized backlight strobing in 2D are the ASUS VG278HE - 144Hz and the BENQ XL2411T. Asus is also releasing a new model VG248QE 144hz (24", 1ms) this month that has a similar panel to the BenQ XL2411T but different circuitry.

The 1ms response time Lightboost2 monitors when maintaining 100fps+ at 100hz, or maintaining 120fps+ at 120hz, with Lighboost2's 3D 1ms backlight strobing synchronized and enabled in 2D gaming -- results in zero motion blur, like a crt. That is a huge difference in picture quality during movement.
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A 120hz non lightboost2 TN maintaining high fps results in smoother motion tracking and around half as much blur as a 60hz TN (slightly worse than half as much blur for the 120hz IPS).
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Oofloom said:
Many are so used to LCD they don't even notice the blur. I'm getting "Huh? What blur?" from a lot of people.
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Reminds me of the "Allegory of the Cave".
Some are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what its like to see clearly.

The ways I've seen people "workaround" , "attempt to ignore" , or pretend to be oblivious to it are flick-FoV movement from A-to-B in an attempt to "blink" past the FoV arc motion that smears every time, otherwise they just try to ignore and not pay attention during the FoV movement, trying not to register vision during it at all... or you let your locked on eye focus strain at the textures and texture-depth via bump mapping that smear out during each FoV movement, since your eyes always try to focus away blur (I know mine do). Its most annoying on the highest detail extreme textured games.
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elvn said:
As for 120hz, the consensus is that it still blurs.. just not as much. I'm finding the most modern, extremely high resolution texture mapped games , + bumpmapping depth and shaders blur even more obvious and eye wrenching than before since the blur on fast FoV movement washes out that extremely high detail+3d depth my eyes "have a lock on" every time. It strains my eyes and is much more obnoxious to me than more than simpler textured/older games.

Most people seem to agree with this representation of 60hz/120hz *LCD/ CRT blur in games.

lcd-blur.jpg


So it appears to me that 120hz vs the limitation of LCD pixel response times and retinal retention blur would still not be enough to retain the focus on texture detail (much like fine text scrawled on a surface which gets smudged out) and bump map depth.

Its like you have goggles filled with some liquid-gel and every time you turn quickly, your eyes see all fine detail lost in a blurring. 120hz might replace your goggles with a fluid which has double the viscosity, blurring near half as much.. but its still a lousy prescription compared to clear sight imo.
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The 1ms lightboost2 monitors result in the same full clarity as the crt representation.
Consider that blur effect on not just a single simple cartoon cell shaded car.. but rather on a scene, your entire "viewport" full of high detail objects, architecture, landscape, high detail textures, depth via bump mapping, shaders, etc all smearing out during FoV movement. I find it hard to label any monitor that smears like that a "superior picture" or "higher quality display" in regard to gaming. Desktop/app use is another matter, which is why I use a high ppi IPS next to my gaming monitor and intend to going forward. All about tradeoffs.
 
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Dunno what you have set wrong, but you somehow don't have the Asus or vid drivers set to 120hz. I went from HP ZR30W to that same exact Asus VG278H (going to get 3 of them eventually or go OLED in future), but the jump from 60hz to 120hz is immediately noticable on the desktop. I have SLI GTX580's so I can push the FPS, so in games I set the settings to where I am pushing about 120fps and it's very buttery smooth noticeable.

Obviously everyone isn't praising 120hz for no reason. You have something setup wrong. It's as noticable a difference as you would notice if you saw 30hz compared to your 60hz
 
I can push more than 60 FPS on my system in the games I play (MWO, MOHW, etc..).

Any smoothness, IMO, is negated by the poor viewing angles and inaccurate colors. Not saying it wasn't smooth, I just didn't notice it enough to warrant the pricetag and the colors and viewing angles aren't anywhere near as good as my IPS display. Locled at 60 fps is plenty for my needs and still runs buttery smooth.
 
Smoothness means more frames per second due to higher hz input combined with fps that approaches, or better yet surpasses that number of hz. This smoothness people talk about is increased motion tracking due to more unique and more recent action 'slices' shown per second.
--A 60hz monitor can not compare to the smoothness of motion tracking of a 120hz or 144hz monitor at high fps, due to so many more unique, more recent frames of action being shown per second.
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The other benefit of very low response time + aggressive response time compensation (RTC) 120hz input monitors is that they reduce the amount of blur during FoV movement.
---- A 60hz TN blurs horribly during FoV movement, a 60hz IPS would blur even worse.
----The 120hz TN's reduce this blur about 50% compared to a 60hz tn.
----The 120hz IPS (limited number of korean ips) blur a little worse than 50% compared to a 60hz TN.
----The 144hz 1ms TNs with 1ms Lightboost2 3D capability, set at 100hz and running 100+fps, or set at 120hz running 120+fps, result in ZERO BLUR during FoV movement.
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FoV movement on LCD's is a blurred mess.
Reminds me of the "Allegory of the Cave".
Some are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what its like to see clearly.
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elvn said:
the most modern, extremely high resolution texture mapped games , + bumpmapping depth and shaders, make my (60hz ips) lcd screen blur even more obvious and eye wrenching than before since the blur on fast FoV movement washes out that extremely high detail+3d depth my eyes "have a lock on" every time. It strains my eyes and is much more obnoxious to me than more than simpler textured/older games.

Most people seem to agree with this representation of 60hz/120hz *LCD/ CRT blur in games.

lcd-blur.jpg


So it appears to me that 120hz vs the limitation of LCD pixel response times and retinal retention blur would still not be enough to retain the focus on texture detail (much like fine text scrawled on a surface which gets smudged out) and bump map depth.

Its like you have goggles filled with some liquid-gel and every time you turn quickly, your eyes see all fine detail lost in a blurring. 120hz might replace your goggles with a fluid which has double the viscosity, blurring near half as much.. but its still a lousy prescription compared to clear sight imo.
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Click to expand...

The 1ms lightboost2 monitors result in the same full clarity as the crt representation.
Consider that blur effect on not just a single simple cartoon cell shaded car.. but rather on a scene, your entire "viewport" full of high detail objects, architecture, landscape, high detail textures, depth via bump mapping, shaders, etc all smearing out during FoV movement. I find it hard to label any monitor that smears like that a "superior picture" or "higher quality display" in regard to gaming. Desktop/app use is another matter, which is why I use a high ppi IPS next to my gaming monitor and intend to going forward. All about tradeoffs.
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Ultranifty said:
Dunno what you have set wrong, but you somehow don't have the Asus or vid drivers set to 120hz. I went from HP ZR30W to that same exact Asus VG278H (going to get 3 of them eventually or go OLED in future), but the jump from 60hz to 120hz is immediately noticable on the desktop. I have SLI GTX580's so I can push the FPS, so in games I set the settings to where I am pushing about 120fps and it's very buttery smooth noticeable.

Obviously everyone isn't praising 120hz for no reason. You have something setup wrong. It's as noticable a difference as you would notice if you saw 30hz compared to your 60hz
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You're right, 120hz is noticeable over 60hz. In some types of games such as a competitive FPS games it can be immensely helpful - However, a TN panel, 120hz or not, is only barely adequate outside of games and will be a low resolution maxed at 1080p with all of the other pitfalls of TN.

As I said. Its preference. Some people will stick to 120hz regardless of how utterly bad their TN panel looks outside of games, but as mentioned if you don't care about poor viewing angles, poor color accuracy, low 1080p resolution, etc, by all means get a 120hz TN. Literally the only thing they have going for them is 120hz.

The difference going from a high end 2560 resolutionIPS back to a TN is pretty astounding outside of games, 1080p on a 27 inch is absolutely horrendous with pixel size. IPS panels are more than adequate for gaming; not as good as 120hz, yet on the other hand you get higher resolution, double the pixel count with 2560 resolution, better color accuracy, viewing angles, and a monitor that doesn't look like utter shit in windows. The high resolution and pixel count in games for me is pretty immersive, although everyone has to make a judgement call on high resolution versus high refresh rate. It's your call.
 
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Back in 1999 when I was playing Quake 3 at 120hz on a CRT it was the best thing ever. It's so noticeably good it's silly. It's funny how just moving an explorer window at 60hz on an LCD feels worse than playing a game 14 years ago in terms of smoothness.

Wake me up when I can buy a 1440p or higher 120hz monitor for $250 or less. I'm certainly not going to change monitors until that happens.
 
ShoeLace said:
Back in 1999 when I was playing Quake 3 at 120hz on a CRT it was the best thing ever. It's so noticeably good it's silly. It's funny how just moving an explorer window at 60hz on an LCD feels worse than playing a game 14 years ago in terms of smoothness.

Wake me up when I can buy a 1440p or higher 120hz monitor for $250 or less. I'm certainly not going to change monitors until that happens.
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If you come from a CRT, then you will be dissapointed to hear that 120Hz will only reduce motion blur, but not eliminate motion blur completely. You need strobe backlight to do a dramatic reduction. CRT and plasma are impulse-driven displays, but LCD normally isn't impulse-driven (except for LightBoost strobe mode).

PixPerAn chase test, 960 pixels per second:
60Hz -- blur trail length of about 16 pixels
120Hz non-strobed -- blur trail length of about 8 pixels
120Hz LightBoost strobe backlight -- blur trail length of ~1 pixels (CRT sharp)
 
That blur trail length during FoV movement = the entire viewport trailing/blurring that much. To the eye, that is just a huge smeary blur during motion.

The 1ms lightboost2 monitors result in the same full clarity as the crt representation.
Consider that blur effect on not just a single simple cartoon cell shaded car.. but rather on a scene, your entire "viewport" full of high detail objects, architecture, landscape, high detail textures, depth via bump mapping, shaders, etc all smearing out during FoV movement. I find it hard to label any monitor that smears like that a "superior picture" or "higher quality display" in regard to gaming. Desktop/app use is another matter, which is why I use a high ppi IPS next to my gaming monitor and intend to going forward. All about tradeoffs.
Click to expand...

Mark Rejhon said:
It can't be easily captured in a video, because you need a tracking camera (moving camera that tracks motion):
Motion Blur Measurement Kit
(Costs over $10,000).
Computer monitor manufacturers and display manufacturers use such tracking cameras to optimize their displays.

Stationary cameras (still cameras or video cameras that aren't moving to track a moving object).

1. Stationary camera

...Advantage: Measuring pixel persistence
...Disadvantage: Cannot properly measure eye-tracking-based motion blur

2. Moving camera

...Advantage: WYSIWYG (what the eye saw). Measuring eye-tracking based motion blur, including trailing effects.
...Disadvantage: Very difficult, expensive setups

The second image is a 1/60sec shutter, taken on a Samsung 226BW with a 180Hz PWM CCFL backlight. The camera tracked the moving object (which was moving at 960 pixels per second). It even successfully captured the triple-image effect of the 180Hz PWM

For users, the easiest way for everyday users to benchmark: You need to benchmark it using software, such as PixPerAn, or other motion benchmarking software.
Click to expand...
 
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Mark Rejhon said:
If you come from a CRT, then you will be dissapointed to hear that 120Hz will only reduce motion blur, but not eliminate motion blur completely. You need strobe backlight to do a dramatic reduction. CRT and plasma are impulse-driven displays, but LCD normally isn't impulse-driven (except for LightBoost strobe mode).

PixPerAn chase test, 960 pixels per second:
60Hz -- blur trail length of about 16 pixels
120Hz non-strobed -- blur trail length of about 8 pixels
120Hz LightBoost strobe backlight -- blur trail length of ~1 pixels (CRT sharp)
Click to expand...

LightBoost seems really expensive. A quick Googling is showing monitors in the $650 USD range. Is that about accurate?
 
There is an "Asus VG248QE 144hz 3D Vision 2" (due out this month supposedly) with same panel as the BENQ XL2411T but with some different circuitry. Not sure on the real price once they hit retailers.



ASUS continues its push into the monitor market with a pair of new models debuting at CES 2013. First up is the VG248QE, a 24-in 1080p monitor that runs at a refresh rate of 144 Hz and supports NVIDIA's 3D Vision 2 and a 1ms gray-to-gray response time. These are TN panels so you might be surprised to see they are going to priced quite reasonably in the $399 range. The display also includes a new ASUS technology called GamePlus that embeds crosshairs for games into the OSD on the monitor to offer additional options in troublesome 3D modes.
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Other sites quote $450... could be much higher idk.
 
I just wanted to add that korean LCDs blur A LOT actually, at any refresh rate. Even more than modern MVAs panels on bright colors. Just my 2c...
 
Man, I must just be oblivious as all hell. I play a lot of FPS games (mainly CS:GO and BF3) and don't have any issues with my korean IPS monitor. I'm not going to be going pro any time soon, but I'm definitely far above average skill level in those games, so I don't think its hurting my performance. Either ignorance is bliss and I should never look at a 120hz panel for fear of ruining myself, or you guys are too picky
 
You think ips magically becomes ghosting-free after applying to it 120hz?... Nope, it's still IPS with added smoothness but the blur of moving images is still very apparent.
 
That's a huge exaggeration, the human eye will not see "obvious" blurring on an IPS panel. Only with sophisticated testing methods can anything like that be seen.

Pretty sure you don't own, and have never owned an IPS panel. Just stop with the nonsense. A quick browse through his post history shows him recommending 27 inch 1080p TN/VA panels. Then he goes on to state that 1080p TN/VA panels are underrated while 2560 resolution IPS panels are overrated.
 
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xoleras said:
Dude. Give me a break. That's a huge exaggeration, the human eye will not see "obvious" blurring on an IPS panel. Only with sophisticated testing methods can anything like that be seen.

Are you some type of CRT freak or something? Pretty sure you don't own, and have never owned an IPS panel. Just stop with the nonsense. A quick browse through his post history shows him recommending 27 inch 1080p TN panels. Great guy to listen to :rolleyes:
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The blurring on the 120hz oc IPS is extremely apparent, as they force a panel with no overdrive and 6ms listed refresh (in practice its always a bit higher as gtg is not the slowest transitions) to refresh every 8ms.
This puts the panel in a state of constant pixel transitions with no gap in between.

They are still SMOOTH in motion due to 120hz, but that motion is a constant blur, watching medium/fast movement/panning on these is like being drunk.

I owned a 120hz yamakasi, and it was unbearable in fast motion, so i gave it away after one day.
 
Yes, it's smooth, but it blurs a lot, unfortunately.

xoleras said:
Dude. Give me a break. That's a huge exaggeration, the human eye will not see "obvious" blurring on an IPS panel. Only with sophisticated testing methods can anything like that be seen.

Pretty sure you don't own, and have never owned an IPS panel. Just stop with the nonsense. A quick browse through his post history shows him recommending 27 inch 1080p TN/VA panels. Then he goes on to state that 1080p TN/VA panels are underrated while 2560 resolution IPS panels are overrated. :rolleyes:
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http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1734536
 
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Morkai said:
The blurring on the 120hz oc IPS is extremely apparent, as they force a panel with no overdrive and 6ms listed refresh (in practice its always a bit higher as gtg is not the slowest transitions) to refresh every 8ms.
This puts the panel in a state of constant pixel transitions with no gap in between.

They are still SMOOTH in motion due to 120hz, but that motion is a constant blur, watching medium/fast movement/panning on these is like being drunk.

I owned a 120hz yamakasi, and it was unbearable in fast motion, so i gave it away after one day.
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I haven't used any of the 120hz korean panels (nor any korean panels) so I can't comment on that, but it sounds like the overdrive is causing some unintended side effects. Motion blur shouldn't be detectable by the human eye, it sounds like a negative consequence of running the panel beyond intended specifications. Anyway, blurring isn't detectable to the human eye on modern IPS panels and only found by using sophisticated testing methods.

I agree that true 120hz panels are smoother but some of the general claims here about IPS panels are pretty ridiculous.
 
not true at all. I can see FoV movement blurring the entire scene even on a 120hz TN at high fps, since they only reduce LCD motion blur by about 1/2 (the 120hz ips' a bit worse). This argument is getting circuitous.
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Please see my posts #92 and #96 among others. The blur being discussed is how it looks due to the human eye (retinal retention blur), not testing equipment. Though testing equipment can measure the motion trail trail to give a measurement, only very expensive equipment can show what it looks like to the human eye. . I don't want to keep spamming the same details over and over again.

Reminds me of the "Allegory of the Cave".
Some are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what its like to see clearly.
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3char...
Mark Rejhon said:
One big problem:

There is always motion blur on sample-and-hold displays even with instant-responding (0ms) pixels. This motion blur is caused by eye-tracking based motion, which is the major cause of motion blur. On a modern panel, pixel persistence is no longer the main cause of motion blur because it's now only a tiny fraction (e.g. 2-5ms) out of a 16ms refresh at 60Hz) See Science & References that explains this further.

Your eyes are always moving, while following a moving object. On a sample-and-hold display (non-strobed), your eyes have moved a tiny bit even over the 1/60th second (or 1/120th second), so the LCD frame is blurred across your retinas, as the frames artificially step forward, one frame at a time. The edge blur thickness is equivalent to the step distance. For example, a moving objecte that steps 16 pixels between frames, you've got 16 pixels of edge blur -- even with instant-responding pixels (0ms). Double the Hz, and you've got half the step, and that's why LCD 120Hz has 50% less motion blur than LCD 60Hz. However, CRT 60fps@60Hz has much sharper motion than LCD 120fps@120Hz, and that actually is not only because of pixel persistence -- it's actually scientifically proven/measured to also be eye-tracking based motion blur on a sample-and-hold display. On newer LCD panels, retinal blurring during eye tracking is a MUCH BIGGER cause of motion blur than pixel persistence. (2ms out of 16ms refresh, means pixel persistence on a 2ms LCD is less than 20% the cause of motion blur at 60Hz -- and by itself, does not explain why motion blur is still so bad)

You _need_ more frames (more Hz, or frame interpolation), _or_ strobing (CRT, LightBoost, scanning backlight, etc). The stroboscopic effect eliminates the retinal blurring caused by eye tracking. In a perfect world, we'd have infinite framerate, but that's technically impossible, so strobing is the easiest way (ala CRT) -- and done at a high enough rate that the flicker doesn't bother the eyes. (Thus, 120Hz and up is a good rate for strobing that looks flicker-free to most people)
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Gotta throw my vote in with the "120hz minimum for gaming" crowd. I had what is probably the fastest/lowest blur IPS around, the Asus VG23AH, and IMO it was unusable for gaming. When it comes to gaming on an LCD, minimizing blur should be your #1 priority, far and away. I'm still trying to find a satisfactory replacement for my CRT after 2 years, so I may be picky.
 
xoleras said:
That's a huge exaggeration, the human eye will not see "obvious" blurring on an IPS panel. Only with sophisticated testing methods can anything like that be seen.
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It's quite obvious when you're running at maximum framerates (e.g. 60fps @ 60Hz versus 120fps @ 120Hz), especially in panning motion. You can run software such as PixPerAn to see this, but anything that causes pans (e.g. strafing, turns) will yield the same result.
 
Sycraft said:
They aren't. I mean they aren't as good as PVA panels but they aren't bad. The problem is there are tons of whiners/haters out there. They want a perfect display and so cry about everything. Or sometimes they are a fanboy of a given technology and thus to them it is the One True Way(tm) and they hate on everything else.

Ignore it. There's lots of great monitors out there. You like IPS? Ok that's all you need to know. Remember the only person you have to make happy is YOU. Get yourself an IPS panel. If you are an NEC fan, well get one of theirs. For $700 you could look at a P241W or a PA231W. Those are some of their really high end monitors with hardware calibration and the like.

For something cheaper, you could look at Dell. The U2412 is amazing for the price. I have a $1000+ NEC pro monitor and I've got no real complaints with the U2412. It's not perfect but it is damn good and usually just a bit over $300.

So get something like that if that's what you like.

Don't buy in to the bullshit of needing some ultrafast monitor for gaming. I've still never seen a proper double blind study that shows people are even as sensitive to speed as they like to claim, and that aside only a limited number of kinds of games would even matter. All that aside, I do fine on my "slow" monitor. The NEC 90 series are 60Hz only, of course, and have 33ms (2 frames) of lag. For all that I have a KDR better than 1.0 in BC2 and BF3 despite being a suicidal medic that likes to run in to firefights :).

Now none of this is to say don't get a 120Hz TN monitor if you decide there's one you like. You do what makes you happy. IPS has a nice image but TN is fine too, maybe you find you like the extra FPS (for games that your vid card can drive that fast) rather than the better image.

You decide what is right by you. I say stay with what you like. You like your nice NEC? Get another. That's what I'm going to do. Once of these days I want a 30" monitor. It'll be a PA301W. Is it the best for gaming? The best for the money? I don't give a shit, it is what I like. I have only me to please :D.
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NEC's are great monitors, well worth saving up for a 30 inch panel and NEC's are said to have less anti glare coating as well.

As for TN over IPS??? NEVER!!! The old wives tale of gaming needing a TN panel......those days are long gone and really a non issue with any panel 8ms response or less. The quality of colors , the viewing angles etc. on an IPS panel make for a richer viewing experience without all the colorshifting and poor viewing angles and lack of color on a TN panel.
Its too bad you done see any pva or pmva panels out in the market anymore, I have a pmva on my older 24 inch and its great happy medium between pva and ips panels for less money.
Anyhow I game on a 30 inch IPS no image problems at all at 60hz.
 
I don't plan on spending big bucks for a 120hz TN panel. I don't play competitive FPS though. These different monitors are merely different tools, each has their own use. I remember what it's like to use a CRT, actually there's still one laying around at my mother's place... and honestly a little motion blur does not bother me. It made the game crysis actually look somewhat playable when it first came out to turn that feature on, and that's an extreme example of blur there generated by the game itself. And response time, I have not owned a monitor where the response time has affected me in any way. The biggest issues I've had with monitors are described below.

I honestly like the 'pop', the bright saturation that LCD panels provide, the same sort of pop many of the videophiles on AVS forums criticize... IPS is particularly mouth watering.

IPS is not perfect though, you've got IPS glow, and less than perfect black levels. VA panels have black crush and gamma shifting. There is yet no perfect panel... except perhaps CRT monitors and plasma TVs (in darker rooms) and I am sensitive to what I perceive to be a 'screen door' effect on all plasmas so meh...

Also... harsh AG sucks, but glossy sucks too. Only recently have some IPS makers started to get the right level of anti-glare correct, so I may have to upgrade to a 27 inch IPS from my U2412 for that reason alone... as soon as I see a sale for the U2713HM for $600 or less on the net. But I worry I will notice crosshatching or get a unit with image retention, but know of Dell and Amazon's superior return policies. Hopefully everything is fine. :) I must say though, harsh AG and IPS glow aside, this U2412 has great color rendition once calibrated. I don't 'need' another monitor, but I'm going to buy one anyways. I just wish it was 16:10 for maybe $700 on sale, since that's what this U2412 is.
 
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Baconstrip said:
All very good points sir, and really, that's part of my problem. There are so many people with SO MANY opinions, nothing is definitive. It's not like researching a new video card, or new CPU, etc. I do want to please only myself, but I can barely even research this given that opinions are so unbelievably skewed in all directions. I do love a pretty screen, but would I love the extra FPS? Heck yes I would... but would I be disappointed with the image quality on a 120hz? Maybe. BurntToast did exactly what makes this difficult.. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and hardcore gamers say that 120hz is the shit.

I guess I'm worried that no matter what I do, the chance of making a mistake and being unhappy with my purchase is high. I don't wanna drop 700$ on a sweet IPS only to have the gaming performance be garbage, nor do I wanna drop 300 on 120 and hate to look at the ugly screen in windows :p

Where are the damn 120hz IPS panels! :)
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what you have to remember here is that many people posting their opinions have not been early adopters of lcd panels like some of us and most consumers here probably dont have any experience with a panel that isnt TN and many are just repeating threads they have read. those who only know TN are easy to detect, they like it and they like it ALOT, then you have your 120hz crowd, I wont get into that except to say that I game 60 hz and have had no issues with ghosting or any other distortion and all my panels have been between 6ms to 8ms input lag 19 to 30 inches.
Those who truly have had experience or owned higher grade panels be it SPVA, MVA, PMVA, IPS, EIPS etc. would never recommend a TN panel unless ofcourse they are fixated on 120hz for some bizarre perceived reason.
Hardcore gamers think 120 hz and TN panels are the shit, well im a hardcore gamer and 60hz IPS is where it's at so there's a non conformist opinion for you on that matter and as Ive already said ANYONE who recommends TN panels hardcore gamer or not has not experienced a better panel such as IPS or the cheaper upgrades like pva and mva derivatives.

as for blacks, they arent bad at all on IPS, though not as deep as the blacks on my 24 inch PMVA panel I bought several years ago.

WITH IPS one thing you have to remember is that these panels are not likely to look good out of the box colors aside, they need calibration which is not to say you absolutely must use professional hardware to calibrate it but you are going to spend some time and effort and fiddling to get it just right for your experience which brings up another good point this is something that fewer people do with a TN panel or less expensive monitor.

At the end of the day, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you have a micro center or a fry's in your area I highly recommend going there and looking at the monitors to get a more subjective personal analysis.
 
stockwiz said:
I don't plan on spending big bucks for a 120hz TN panel. I don't play competitive FPS though. These different monitors are merely different tools, each has their own use. I remember what it's like to use a CRT, actually there's still one laying around at my mother's place... and honestly a little motion blur does not bother me. It made the game crysis actually look somewhat playable when it first came out to turn that feature on, and that's an extreme example of blur there generated by the game itself. And response time, I have not owned a monitor where the response time has affected me in any way. The biggest issues I've had with monitors are described below.

IPS is not perfect though, you've got IPS glow. VA panels have black crush and gamma shifting. There is yet no perfect panel... except perhaps CRT monitors and plasma TVs (in darker rooms)

Also... harsh AG sucks, but glossy sucks too. Only recently have some IPS makers started to get the right level of anti-glare correct, so I may have to upgrade to a 27 inch IPS from my U2412 for that reason alone... as soon as I see a sale for the U2713HM for $600 or less on the net.
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ITS SAD that all the PMVA panels disappeared, these were a perfect happy medium between PVA and IPS drawing upon the strengths of both without their drawbacks. CRT monitors were by no means perfect and frankly they were not good for your eyesight.
 
If you really read the threads about 120hz panels and ips panels in regard to gaming you'd see that a lot of the enthusiasts on this site have owned many different types of panels and have first hand experience at gaming on many of them.
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60hz for gaming is inferior with half or less frames of more recent action data shown / motion tracking smoothness and accuracy, and has the worst FoV movement blur out of any modern gaming monitor option.
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elvn said:
If you consider less than half the motion tracking and it's related "smoothness" and accuracy (2x or more frames of more recent, unique action frames shown per second) , and more than twice the blur of 120hz TN not a problem on a gaming monitor in 2013 go for it but it would not even be worth considering in my opinion. Let alone compared to a zero FoV movement blur gaming 'viewport', and over aggressive AG tradeoff on most 30" models. If I had to suffer the blur I'd get in line for a 120hz -133hz overclockable glossy korean ips which has the increased motion tracking benefit and a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn. 60hz gaming is dead to me.
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elvn said:
Its a big difference on a 120hz input gaming monitor. There are also 144hz input gaming monitors now. These panels also have aggressive response time compensation tech.

Considering models that don't have over-aggresive AG and don't have scalers that induce input lag to start with,
What we have now is:

60hz panels. The have a maximum "motion tracking per second" capability of 60 unique action frames shown per second if you maintain 60fps+ to feed each hz with a newer, unique action frame. They have a lot of FoV movement blur, blurring the entire viewport in a mess "outside of the lines" whenever you move your FoV. This blur obliterates architecture detail, creature detail, gorgeous high detail texture detail of modern games, "3d" depth via bump mapping and other shaders.. smearing the entire viewport.

120hz to 133hz overclockable 2560x1440 glossy ips korean monitors with certain boards in them that allow them to "overclock" to those higher hz. These monitors have greater motion tracking per second. They show 120 or more unique action frames per second as long as you maintain feeding 120fps or more to the monitor. They lack scalers and aggressive AG problems, have the gorgeous static display capabilities of a good ips screen, but still blur a little worse than 1/2 as much as a 60hz TN.

120hz to 144hz 1080p TN monitors with aggressive response time compensation. These monitors have 1/2 as much blur as a very low response time 60hz TN. They have much increased motion tracking capability and smoothness of motion (not to be confused with blur reduction) if you maintain fps equal to or higher than their hz setting. More dots per dotted line length per se (twice as many or more unique , more recent action frames shown per second than a 60hz panel, with the resulting increased accuracy and smoothness feeling).

The newest on the high speed/accuracy/smoothness gaming panel front is that some people realized you could enable the 1ms speed backlights designed for 3D gaming when you are gaming in 2D by using a workaround. This works on 144hz lightboost2 monitors using a nvidia card, running them at 100hz & 100fps+, or 120hz and 120fps+. The results of doing this are a monitor with zero LCD blur, like a professional crt. They also still have the increased motion tracking benefits when maintaining fps higher than their hz setting of course. The way the zero blur lightboost2 2D gaming works is the backlight does a synchronized 1m strobe like a pristine snapshot, conversely blanking out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of each frame before an after each strobe.

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All of these monitor types have some tradeoffs. For gaming, motion is king imo. There are several 120hz or greater flavors to choose from at 1/2 as much blur or worse, including some limited quantities of 120hz - 133hz ips screens. For zero blur there are only a few options currently, and ips is still not fast enough to completely eliminate blur even if there were a lightboost2 ips monitor in existence. So far no ips monitor has intentionally been manufactured to accept over 60hz input though.

I can't imagine gaming on a 60hz panel now. That is going in the opposite direction for gaming as far as I'm concerned, and all of the even higher than 2560x panels due out are stuck at 60hz and likely include scalers and other lag inducing tech in them as far as I have seen.

LCD's blur badly. Even 120hz non-lightboost lcds blur a lot on FoV movement. Its just more of a full soften blur, within the shadow mask of the objects so to speak. It still wipes out all object and high detail texture detail every time you move your FoV.

Its as if some people are so used to wearing their "slushy goggles" they don't know what unblurred FoV movement looks like. I liken it to the allegory of the cave.
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Appreciable reductions of (~50% less blur) and even complete elimination of lcd's obnoxious FoV blur entirely, along with increased motion tracking smoothness and accuracy of movement with more recent action shown per greater fractions of a second are huge aesthetic gains and I find it aggravating when people say they should be relegated to or would only be appreciated by rabbid fps twitch gamers.
 
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Activate: AMD said:
Man, I must just be oblivious as all hell. I play a lot of FPS games (mainly CS:GO and BF3) and don't have any issues with my korean IPS monitor. I'm not going to be going pro any time soon, but I'm definitely far above average skill level in those games, so I don't think its hurting my performance. Either ignorance is bliss and I should never look at a 120hz panel for fear of ruining myself, or you guys are too picky
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probably all of the above. I game with IPS and have no issues whatsoever. Those TN panel lovers would have you believe that you cannot game at all on an IPS panel which is simply not true. I'll take the IPS tradeoffs over the horrible cheap TN panels any day.

the 120hz crowd has it set in their minds that you cannot game well or game at all unless your using a tn 120hz.

years ago the response on an IPS panel might have been more prohibitive to gaming but that was SIX YEARS AGO.

I also think alot of thes 120hz tn panel goers like to have multi monitors sitting on their desks, another reason why they love TN soo much, they cannot afford three IPS monitors and 3 30inch panels are simply to large for their desktop.

Personally I find my single 30 inch monitor very immersive in games as compared to my 24 inch panel and while a 3 panel setup might be nice for flight games im not so sure its all that great for first person shooters.
Ive asked alot of people who have 3 monitors on their desktop why they have them and the answer is 99% of the time the exact same response "because I can".

At the end of the day 120 hz statistices, response times etc. remind me of CPU and GPU debates where people squabble about statistics that cannot in most cases be tangibly perceived in the real world.

The viewing angle and color gamut characteristics of TN and IPS panels however, are very much tangible and having owned TN , PMVA, PVA and IPS panels I can tell you that NO TN panel will ever again grace my desktop.
 
Its also worth noting that SAMSUNGS new PLS panels are getting rave reviews, I went to see one but out of stock and the display model hand been sold as well.

I hope that samsung uses their PLS on a nice large 16:10 display 30 inches or greater.
 
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