What happened to all the hard games?

[Dreaz]

Oh please, there's still plenty of challenging games, if you put their difficulty up to hard. Even the new Ninja Gaiden is damn challenging on the topmost difficulty. Let's also not forget we've gotten older, so games that were once hard aren't.

Besides, some of the old-school "hard" games weren't hard, they were just fucking retarded. Some games gave you one life for the whole game and 0 continues. That's not "hard", that's stupid.

 

[Stereophile]

Would I like to see a 2d Super Ghouls and Ghosts remake? Hell yes. Would it incorporate new tech and improvements that would no doubt make it easier. Most likely.

They made a new Ghouls and Ghosts game for PSP a few years ago that is good and supposedly they didn't make it easy. I wish they'd release it for PS3 on PSN.

Although Demon's Souls is the most challenging game I'd played in a while, RPGs are nowhere near as hard as they used to be. Baldur's Gate 2 had some difficult battles, but it wasn't impossible. You just had to reload a lot. Many RPGs now feel like a cakewalk. Try beating the old Ultima games before the internet was available for help.

 

[TheCommander]

Oh please, there's still plenty of challenging games, if you put their difficulty up to hard. Even the new Ninja Gaiden is damn challenging on the topmost difficulty. Let's also not forget we've gotten older, so games that were once hard aren't.

Besides, some of the old-school "hard" games weren't hard, they were just fucking retarded. Some games gave you one life for the whole game and 0 continues. That's not "hard", that's stupid.

Many of those insanely hard games had continues and lives such as the Castlevania games. Castlevania 3, Contra, Battletoads were all very challenging but also gave you multiple chances.. Those platform games were much harder than what we have today.

 

[TheCommander]

They made a new Ghouls and Ghosts game for PSP a few years ago that is good and supposedly they didn't make it easy. I wish they'd release it for PS3 on PSN.

Although Demon's Souls is the most challenging game I'd played in a while, RPGs are nowhere near as hard as they used to be. Baldur's Gate 2 had some difficult battles, but it wasn't impossible. You just had to reload a lot. Many RPGs now feel like a cakewalk. Try beating the old Ultima games before the internet was available for help.

Yep. The Internet did make things much easier. Old RPGs were pretty hard; D&D games such as Champions of Krynn, Descent to Undermountain, etc... were tough. Even console RPGs such as FF and Faxandu were more challneging than those of today.

 

[Tudz]

My sypathies lie with the hardcore gamer and against the trend that games have become too streamlined and idiot proof, where games lack any real depth. However, having said that there is no need for insane challenge. For today's game, challenge only means this: save>load>load>load>load>load>save>load>load>load.... then after you get past the hard part it's save>save>save>save>save>. Then you feel safe for a while, and forget to save. Then you have to load to an old save where you lose a half hour's worth of progress. Then when it gets hard again, it's: load>load>load>load>load>load>load.... again until you beat the boss.

Yeah, I dislike those sorts of games and usually get bored and give up after a while, so for me its like save>load>load>load>load>load>save>load>load>load>fuck this I quit.

To me the perfect game difficulty is when you die a few times in a level (but not cheap deaths, actual "fuck that was too hard" deaths). I really liked Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox because that's what the difficulty was like, missions weren't impossibly hard, but at the same time it took a few goes to get through (haven't played any of the newer ones, dont own any current gen consoles, only a PC).

 

[Daggah]

Because today's gaming market is overrun by simplicity.

vs

and

Uh...what?

 

[Parmenides]

^ qwerty and his mouse buddy put those to shame.


btw, games can be extremely complex, yet with simple controls. Yes, it is possible. Of course I vote for complex controls and complex gameplay.

 

[Wrecklusive]

Ironman mode on Wizardry 8 is some hard sheet. The game is 10 years old though.

Wizardry 8 is a wonderful game. I need to try ironmanning it.

 

[topslop1]

Because old games you couldn't save the game If you had a battletoads game now, which allowed you to save, it'd be dead easy.

Also, those games were hard because they would have had zero replay if they weren't so hard.

Even still with save points on an emulator - a friend and I had a very difficult time trying to beat battletoads.. and we did not succeed. We literally were saving after each small battle we encountered and tried playing it over if we lost more than a pellet or two of life.

 

[sirsnits]

I think some of the hard games of the past weren't meant to be that hard, it was mainly do to poor design choices and little to no testing.

 

[Bop]

Most games today are too easy today, granted. But back then some games were just way too ridiculous. Games that were really hard and didn't have unlimited continues were just evil. I played Ninja Gaiden for the first time on Wii VC about a year ago and it was doable because of the unlimited continues. It still edged on the side of being too difficult. (ex last stage needs to be completed by making an enemy disappear off screen and not starting at the last boss after you die)

I think the AVGN sums up difficulty problems in old NES games quite well. A game needs to be challenging but fair.Many SNES games follow this example.

Demon's Souls was quite enjoyable and is the first (and probably only) game I have earned all the achievements in.

 

[Sixthsense]

I remember playing games like Castlevania 3, Ghosts and Goblins, Battletoads, etc.. and they were tough games to beat and still are. Sure there are some tough games these days but nothing as annoyingly hard as games from the past.

quick save was invented, along with walkthrough sites such as gamefaqs and the alike

 

[Nostrovia]

sometimes even the simplist of games can be hard as hell lol. I was playing Return to Zork on Dosbox the other night, I hadn't played that game since I was 10, once I got past the areas I remember as a kid it was nice and challenging. for some reason I have a thing for those old puzzle style games, or even if anyone remembers the dos 5.25/3.5" floppy game "The Fools Errand" those were a blast decades ago

 

[meme]

Today's games are easier because, other than a small number of weird freaks, people don't like hard games.

In the past, games were tiny, the game program itself was tiny, and in order to make up for the fact that there wasn't actually very much game, the game was made extremely hard.

That way, it took a long time to beat a game, and so people felt like they were getting their money's worth. 15 years ago, an easy game would have been over in an hour.

Once the hardware and budgets improved to the point where games could be truly large, at this point it was no longer necessary to make them insanely hard in order for players to have a decently long playing experience. And since most players don't like hard games, there was no need to continue to make them.

However, there have always been a small number of freakish oddballs who will insist, regardless of the situation, that every game is too easy and that they should be made harder. People who will spend 50 hours playing each level on nightmare difficulty until they have it so completely memorized that they are able to beat the game without dying, at which point they will scream that the game is too easy.

These people should be ignored.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

^ or some folks require a challenge to even capture their interests. I rarely see the fun in playing a game where it might as well have a permanent god-mode.

 

[polonyc2]

only recent 'hard' game I remember playing was not really hard but the last Boss was crazy hard to beat...the final Boss in Gears of War was ridiculous...other then that games nowadays are all about graphics, multiplayer and achievements...gameplay is a non factor

 

[Nostrovia]

that's what i think to polony. A friend of mine i've known 10+ years will buy the same game as me, but will play it on the easiest setting and he'll beat it and that's it never play it again.. saying he wants to play it on easy so he can enjoy the story.. that's it. personally I rather have a challenge, I'll play it on the hardest setting available or the next to hardest then if nightmare is unlocked i'll go for that too. I'd rather have a nice challenge and a good story rather than a walk in the park game... Today there's too much focus on just making the games look pretty. :-/

 

[dario03]

The way I like a game is for there to be multiple difficulty levels. And there are a few things that I prefer to have

Harder difficulty should be available from the start. I actually don't replay a lot of games single player modes so I don't want to have to beat the game just to get the more challanging mode.

Harder difficulty shouldn't just give you less health/lives. It should also improve the AI and/or add more opponents.

Harder difficulty shouldn't just be a cheat for the AI. Its okay to have that but there should be a challange without that. I hate how in a lot of RTS games the harder difficulty is just the AI gets to build more and faster and can see the whole map. Like in Command and Conquer Kane's Wrath, the "hard" AI isn't really hard at all, and the "Brutal" AI is basically just the hard AI but gets a money bonus and some other cheats.

 

[necrophile]

Killing floor suddenly came to mind. That game when it first came out at least had great difficulty levels. People played easy and found it okay, then they tried normal and found it pretty tough and a challenge, but then hard was actually hard and suicidal was just plain brutal.

This sort of discussion was had in the steam forums at least of how a games difficulty ratings actually reflected how the game played.

 

[Stereophile]

Uh...what?

Console games, in general, maybe increasing in complexity, but PC Gaming has declined in complexity. RPGs in particular. I read stevedave's impression of FFXIII, apparently there is a weapon slot and an item slot. That's it. Same goes for Elder Scrolls series (each sequel gets simpler), and countless other games.

I've noticed today's FPS don't feel as edgy as old games like Quake 3 or the first Unreal Tournament. New FPS games don't take the same effort to master. I played Quake competitively for years and was amazed at the high skill one could acquire. There was a clear decimation of relative ability within the top 1-2 % of players. New games don't work the same way. Less raw comat and reflexes like the old days. I think this is to attract a wider audience that might not have the time or skill to even play the old "hard" games at an average proficiency. If you suck, it must get old to get owned every game with a 1:5 or 1:10 kill/death ratio. I look forward to games that fuze the old "hardcore" shooting along with more recent gameplay advanements. Brink and Rage are on my radar.

 

[gtg465x]

I find most new games to be pretty damn hard if you turn the difficulty all the way up. Me and my roommates always play L4D and L4D2 on expert and sometimes we have to repeat levels quite a few times before we get it.

 

[Deluded]

I find most new games to be pretty damn hard if you turn the difficulty all the way up. Me and my roommates always play L4D and L4D2 on expert and sometimes we have to repeat levels quite a few times before we get it.

Amen. On the first campaign (expert), a tank showed up literally 40 feet from our starting point. We almost died, found a witch blocking our path. Focusing three shotguns on her, we killed her. We were almost at the first safe house (this is on the first campaign and 1st load... lol) when another tank showed up. I remember that event because I refilled my M16 prior to meeting the tank, and my teammates and I emptied all of our ammos at the tank and it still kept going.

We played a game of hide and seek, using pistols until it finally died. Funnily enough, on the loading screen each of us had done over 4k damage to the tank.

Yes, most games are too easy nowadays, but at least L4D2 got it right. It was brutal to just get past the first chapter on expert. Only one other game comes to mind that's tough as all hell -- Ninja Gaiden. It was hard enough on Normal, and once you jacked the difficulty to Expert or Master Ninja, then it just became over the top ridiculous. That's how they should make the games!

 

[polonyc2]

turning the difficulty level up to 'Extreme' levels does not make a game hard...that is making it artificially hard...more enemies, less health, more damage etc...that's not a legit way of judging the difficulty level of a game

 

[Daggah]

Console games, in general, maybe increasing in complexity, but PC Gaming has declined in complexity. RPGs in particular. I read stevedave's impression of FFXIII, apparently there is a weapon slot and an item slot. That's it. Same goes for Elder Scrolls series (each sequel gets simpler), and countless other games.

Compare, say, DOOM to any modern FPS. In DOOM, you had WASD, shift for sprint, alt for strafing, and the left mouse button for shooting.

No, PC gaming hasn't declined in complexity.

And why do you talk about PC gaming, then go on to mention a Final Fantasy game...a game rooted deeply in the console gaming experience? Logic > you, apparently.

 

[DarrisBard]

I've beat wizardry 8 in Ironman mode. I've beat Ninja Gaiden on NES. Those are two that I'm proud of.

As I get "old" though I prefer story and varied gameplay and not straight difficulty. But Oblivion sucked, just putting that out there.

 

[pigwalk]

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I had to replay tons of sections in Resistance and Uncharted because I kept getting killed. On normal.....

 

[Stereophile]

Compare, say, DOOM to any modern FPS. In DOOM, you had WASD, shift for sprint, alt for strafing, and the left mouse button for shooting.

No, PC gaming hasn't declined in complexity.

And why do you talk about PC gaming, then go on to mention a Final Fantasy game...a game rooted deeply in the console gaming experience? Logic > you, apparently.

Your controller pic while cute didn't prove anything. PC Games are simpler and expect less of the player than what was standard 10-15 years ago. So what if I brought up FF ? ALL RPGS are getting dumbed down. Are you going to argue with me that the Elderscrolls games are getting dumber as each iteration goes along ? I've seen it all. Been playing computer RPGs since Bard's Tale and Might and Magic 1.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

The games I like best aren't very hard over all, but they were challenging the first time I went through them. Games like Mega Man X/2/3 or Super Metroid on the SNES. I can beat those in my sleep these days, but my first time experiencing them took a while. They're short and sweet when you got everything memorized, but can be somewhat long and challenging when you don't. No artificially inflated "gaming hours" with cutscenes, dialog, and monotonous gaps between events, just pure gameplay.

 

[edifyingkarma]

man, battletoads was pretty fuckin hard in the higher levels.

 

[LeviathanZERO]

Even still with save points on an emulator - a friend and I had a very difficult time trying to beat battletoads.. and we did not succeed. We literally were saving after each small battle we encountered and tried playing it over if we lost more than a pellet or two of life.

Thats because Battletoads isnt a hard game, its a BROKEN game.
Its impossible to beat the game in 2 player mode, the game will get stuck and not scroll up the tower to the final battle.

The difficulty is all over the place as well. Easy, Hard. Easy, Hard. I never thought of battletoads to be a well made game. Just bad design. The snake pit is just stupid. Its almost like they didnt play their own game before releasing it.

 

[Parmenides]

Makes you wonder if the devs actually beat their own games in a single playthrough.

I never got far in that game, but it was quite wild. Almost more fun when you start getting revenge on your buddy.

 

[sabaku09]

I remember playing games like Castlevania 3, Ghosts and Goblins, Battletoads, etc.. and they were tough games to beat and still are. Sure there are some tough games these days but nothing as annoyingly hard as games from the past.

Lol it's probably because you were a kid then and therefore games were hard for you to beat

 

[Daggah]

Your controller pic while cute didn't prove anything. PC Games are simpler and expect less of the player than what was standard 10-15 years ago.

So you're telling me that games that had 4 buttons and a digital D-pad twenty years ago had more complexity than modern games played on controllers with 3 times the number of buttons and two analog control sticks?

So what if I brought up FF ? ALL RPGS are getting dumbed down. Are you going to argue with me that the Elderscrolls games are getting dumber as each iteration goes along ?

Hey, I thought the goalposts were over here...quit moving them!

I've seen it all. Been playing computer RPGs since Bard's Tale and Might and Magic 1.

And I care, why? Am I supposed to congratulate you on being a virgin or something?

 

[petertew]

This might have already been said, but if you want a hard game get a good multiplayer game. I can assure you that Starcraft and Counter Strike played online against other people are two of the most challenging games you will play.

 

[tarez]

I think it is just a balance now-a-days.....I personally know I don't have time for bash my head against a wall just to pass a level. When I was a kid and had all the time in the world to play it was ok. Lately, if I can't figure something out in a certain amount of time I will look up a guide online to just get me pass the spot and so I can continue to on.

 

[krameriffic]

^ or some folks require a challenge to even capture their interests. I rarely see the fun in playing a game where it might as well have a permanent god-mode.

You don't see what you should see in a game. An artificially conjured challenge is precisely that. I'm going to draw a line here: if you want to experience a game, play a single player game. If you want to hone your skills, to become the best and compete with a real challenge, play competitive multiplayer gaming. If you want a CHALLENGE, try rising to the top of the Counter-Strike competitive gaming scene.

If you're a fucking masochistic retard who apparently likes challenging 2D sidescrollers from 15 years ago, may I direct you to those stupid Super Mario ROM hacks.

This might have already been said, but if you want a hard game get a good multiplayer game. I can assure you that Starcraft and Counter Strike played online against other people are two of the most challenging games you will play.

Pretty much that.

 

[Kahnvex]

Play Dante's Inferno on 'Infernal'. That adds one and two-hit kills to the majority of the enemy roster. Most of boss attacks are one shot's as well. I would actually call some of the sections borderline to bullshit.

Lots of stopping and having to come back to it the next day.


there are very few games that actually do difficulty right now a days. As with the CoD games they just give the enemy the ability to see through walls and always know where you are, then kill you in three hits. Frustrating and lame really.

Very rarely are the AI routines more intelligent or craftier.

 

[Fading Phoenix]

There's this.

 

[nakedhand]

Games are too easy now a days, I completely agree! But then you can always go online and get your butt kicked by a 14 year old Korean in StarCraft or Dane in CS.

Its developers catering to generations of lazy people who just want instant gratification with no real effort. Sign of the times. I hope that developers will one day grow up and realize that there is a market segment of relatively old guys (like myself, 30+) who enjoys OTHER THINGS than ADHD teens enjoy, and who are willing to pay for games that have depth. Seriously the single player campaign in BFBC2 is laughable. Playing though on "insanity" in Mass Effect 2, sigh...should be way more difficult. Make games for old bastard hard core gamers now! Almost makes me angry hahaha... have to try Demons Souls...sounds horrific!

 

[nakedhand]

There's this.

THANKS! I clicked this link! Thats mean!