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NVIDIA - Petition for SGSSAA without blur and LOD adjustment@DX10/11

J

jimbobb

n00b
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
56
In the nVidia forums there is a petition thread regarding:

*SGSSAA without Blur (unfortunately, Nvidias SGSSAA can blur quite nastily. This can be alleviated by changing the AA compatibility bits, but that doesn't always work. And it's quite fiddly to find the right bits).

Refer to this post here for image comparisons: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169648&view=findpost&p=1220253
Quite a difference...

*LOD adjustment in DX10/11 apps/games.
Without adjusting the LOD when using SGSSAA, the finer details on textures can get lost due to oversampling.

Refer to this page for an image comparison (halfway down - the middle picture is without LOD adjustment, the right one is with LOD adjustment - right now ONLY possible in DX9 and below):
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,7...m-Download-Version-1955/Grafikkarte/Download/
Again, a very pronounced difference.

The petition thread, that is closely monitored by Nvidias driver team, can be found here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169648&st=0&gopid=1220251&#entry1220251

The more people, that post there and lend their support, the higher the probability that Nvidia gives us a blur-free SGSSAA mode and LOD adjustment.

Please support this cause, so we can all enjoy near perfect image quality with our Geforces
 
I couldnt punch in the face that guy asking lod in OpenGL in SGSSAA without blur thread, so I reported him.
 
jimbobb said:
The petition thread, that is closely monitored by Nvidias driver team, can be found here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169648&st=0&gopid=1220251&#entry1220251
Click to expand...
lawl. Yeah, they're just waiting to tally up the votes and jump on it.

The 10%+ decrease in framerate means it's not going to be officially added, because that would mean it would suffer in reviews when IQ gets tweaked to "maximum quality". Only if AMD added a similar setting would this even be seriously considered.
 
pxc said:
lawl. Yeah, they're just waiting to tally up the votes and jump on it.

The 10%+ decrease in framerate means it's not going to be officially added, because that would mean it would suffer in reviews when IQ gets tweaked to "maximum quality". Only if AMD added a similar setting would this even be seriously considered.
Click to expand...

It is often very Different, more Blur costs more FPS!
Here you can see:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8570383&postcount=493
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=8566808#post8566808
 
Ultima99 said:
We need longer acronyms! I want TASBASSAA!
Click to expand...

That acronym IS nice and long but you know what, there is something missing from this post...

morecowbell3.jpg
 
@OP
Automatic lod adjustment in d3d10/11:
This can't be done unless you can get microsoft to totally rewrite the d3d framework and then get all of the game developers that worked on d3d10/11 compatible graphics engines to rebuild them with collaboration from nvidia. Everything is done in custom shaders these days, you can't change that no matter how many people you get on board with this. LOD filtering is not dealt with in d3d10+ the same way it was in d3d9.

Anti-blur SGSSAA mode:
Impossible. SGSSAA often collides with post-processing effects done through custom shaders. The only way to remove the blur is through painstaking hacking of each and every game manually since every game is different (including their post-processing shaders). This can currently be resolved by finding the correct combination of AA comp. bits and building a custom bits profile in nvidia inspector. But this is extremely difficult without good documentation about the shaders that the game develops made. You're lucky to even have driver hacks this complex in the d3d10+ era, if you want cool enhancements like this to be prevelant you need to get microsoft to go back to using fixed functions for everything.

I can only imagine the number of facepalms this has created over at nvidia HQ. "Please nvidia fix my d3d10 or I'll get people to sign a petition, kthxbai".

Without adjusting the LOD when using SGSSAA, the finer details on textures can get lost due to oversampling.
Click to expand...

As long as you get the right compatibility bits turned on the texture quality will either improve or stay the same. Oversampling from SGSSAA cannot cause a loss of texture quality unless it's conflicting with something else. Using a negative lod bias can be thought of more of an enhancement, not a fix. A negative lod bias is usually avoided like the plague because even though it can improve texture sharpness it can also create shimmering, unless you use SGSSAA to oversample the textures and get rid of the shimmering. So it's basically an enhancement for texture quality that can only be used with negative side effects when combined with SGSSAA. But for some reason a lot of people act as if SGSSAA reduces texture quality and a negative lod bias fixes it.

The 10%+ decrease in framerate means it's not going to be officially added, because that would mean it would suffer in reviews when IQ gets tweaked to "maximum quality". Only if AMD added a similar setting would this even be seriously considered.
Click to expand...

10%????
SSAA performance can always be expressed as 1/n where n is the number of samples. 4 samples will give you a 75% drop (assuming no external bottlenecks).

Also. AMD has had SSAA as a standard feature in CCC for almost 2 years now, where have you been? Their implementation has auto lod adjustment but it's d3d9 only.

SSAA has been around for a long time. Reviewers don't use it for obvious reasons, why would adding a few enhancements to an already existing method change that?

That acronym IS nice and long but you know what, there is something missing from this post...
Click to expand...

You call that long? What about SGNTSSAA (sparse grid narrow tent supersampling anti-aliasing). If you want to do things properly the acronym needs to contain the name of the grid, filter, and type of shader being used for AA. But everybody shortens this stuff for convenience. If you just learn the different filter, shader, and grid acronyms these will all make sense to you.

One of these days I'm going to finally get around to making an nvidia/ati modern AA guide and post it here so I can stop having so many facepalm moments, my face is starting to hurt from it.
 
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At least you HAVE SSAA support. AMD doesn't even provide it above DX9, which is pathetic and you'd never know it until you went and tried it yourself.
 
It is free to use any or not, at the end, Everyone benefits. At a Time where more and more Console Ports appear, you can use the existing raw power perfectly in Better Image Quality.
Either matches or let it, it's up to you.
 
LoL............20 posts...........

I'm sure the nvidia guys are staying up late for this one.:p
 
Once again:

Neither of these is possible without complex hacks for each individual game which would require thorough documentation of the game engine. This won't happen no matter how many signatures you get not because nvidia doesn't care but because YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.

LOD is not controlled by a fixed function in d3d10+ and SGSSAA is mainly blurry because it conflicts with post-processing shaders, most of which are different from one game to another.
 
NaturalViolence said:
Once again:

Neither of these is possible without complex hacks for each individual game which would require thorough documentation of the game engine. This won't happen no matter how many signatures you get not because nvidia doesn't care but because YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.

LOD is not controlled by a fixed function in d3d10+ and SGSSAA is mainly blurry because it conflicts with post-processing shaders, most of which are different from one game to another.
Click to expand...

As far as I understood it, the petition is primarily to add automatic lod adjustment for SG SSAA (at least according to OP on Nvidia forums and headline for this thread). AMD does this already for DX9 as you mention yourself even in previous post.

Hopefully, Nvidia will add also an official SG SSAA option with this.

As you can see, it blurs when you don't apply negative lod:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...igher-quality-plus-Nvidia-interview/Practice/

With negative lod, it looks good.
 
As far as I understood it, the petition is primarily to add automatic lod adjustment for SG SSAA (at least according to OP on Nvidia forums and headline for this thread). AMD does this already for DX9 as you mention yourself even in previous post.
Click to expand...

The petition just says "*LOD adjustment in DX10/11 apps/games.". And as I stated lod adjustment in d3d10+ games is not possible without per game hacks to ensure it doesn't totally f**k with any complex functions used on textures.

AMD can pull this off because their RGSSAA/SGSSAA is d3d9 only and implemented through fixed function hardware instead of as a shader. However nvidia has an equivalent already. HSAA (the xS modes) have an auto lod bias built in, but they only work with d3d9.

Hopefully, Nvidia will add also an official SG SSAA option with this.

As you can see, it blurs when you don't apply negative lod:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,7...view/Practice/

With negative lod, it looks good.
Click to expand...

????

I see no comparison shots with/without a negative LOD bias. Not using a negative lod bias will not cause textures to blur when using SGSSAA. It's simply an enhancement that can further enhance texture quality but will cause shimmering unless you use some sort of oversampling.

And they can't add an auto lod bias offset to SGSSAA for the reasons I stated above.
 
NaturalViolence said:
The petition just says "*LOD adjustment in DX10/11 apps/games.". And as I stated lod adjustment in d3d10+ games is not possible without per game hacks to ensure it doesn't totally f**k with any complex functions used on textures.
Click to expand...

Petition thread headline on Nvidia forums is: "(SG)SSAA a bit blurry" and this thread start s with "NVIDIA - Petition for SGSSAA without blur". Thats the main part. Your statement about lod adjustment in DXD10+ games is relevant to the thread, but not to that part.


AMD can pull this off because their RGSSAA/SGSSAA is d3d9 only and implemented through fixed function hardware instead of as a shader. However nvidia has an equivalent already. HSAA (the xS modes) have an auto lod bias built in, but they only work with d3d9.
Click to expand...

Sure, there are the half-assed hybrids, but I like to have a FS SSAA as SGSSAA option if power permits...

????

I see no comparison shots with/without a negative LOD bias. Not using a negative lod bias will not cause textures to blur when using SGSSAA. It's simply an enhancement that can further enhance texture quality but will cause shimmering unless you use some sort of oversampling.

And they can't add an auto lod bias offset to SGSSAA for the reasons I stated above.
Click to expand...

There ain't any comparison shots with/without negative lod bias.That link was to show blur on when SGSSAA is applied. Here's a link with pictures of SGSSAA and different lod levels:
link

Do I want this done automatically as a feature in the drivers? Hell yeah! :D
 
Sure, there are the half-assed hybrids, but I like to have a FS SSAA as SGSSAA option if power permits...
Click to expand...

Not sure I would call it half assed. HSAA is superior to SGSSAA in all ways but one, compatibility with d3d10+.

There ain't any comparison shots with/without negative lod bias.That link was to show blur on when SGSSAA is applied. Here's a link with pictures of SGSSAA and different lod levels:
link
Click to expand...
But you said:
Hopefully, Nvidia will add also an official SG SSAA option with this.

As you can see, it blurs when you don't apply negative lod:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,7...view/Practice/

With negative lod, it looks good.
Click to expand...

And that's not true. The "bluriness" of SGSSAA has nothing to do with the lod. If the compatibility bits are wrong it will look blurry regardless of lod bias, if they are correct it won't look blurry regardless of lod bias. As stated by multiple people in both threads. Negative lod bias is just a texture quality enhancement that can only be used without creating shimmering if combined with SSAA.

I acknowledge the blur problem, but disagree with your assumption of the reason for it.

Of course regardless of any of this neither is possible, for reasons already stated many times.
 
NaturalViolence said:
Not sure I would call it half assed. HSAA is superior to SGSSAA in all ways but one, compatibility with d3d10+.
Click to expand...

I take SGSSAA done right any day over HSAA.


But you said:


And that's not true. The "bluriness" of SGSSAA has nothing to do with the lod. If the compatibility bits are wrong it will look blurry regardless of lod bias, if they are correct it won't look blurry regardless of lod bias. As stated by multiple people in both threads. Negative lod bias is just a texture quality enhancement that can only be used without creating shimmering if combined with SSAA.

I acknowledge the blur problem, but disagree with your assumption of the reason for it.

Of course regardless of any of this neither is possible, for reasons already stated many times.
Click to expand...

I was illustrating the blur with SGSSAA and the necessity of doing something about it. I have a feeling you are more interested in discussing implementation in some set way or something have been lost in translation. I'm not saying that SGSSAA blurs because it doesn't add negative lod, but because you don't add to it (to compensate against the blur). When you add negative lod, it sharpens the image and counters the blur.

When I add SGSSAA, I try to add the correct AA compatibility bits and I try to counter the blur with negative lod. All this through Nvidia Inspector. Its a hell to find the correct bits, but its possible.

The "petition thread" originates from the time when SGSSAA was released in a driver as a TRSSAA bug. OP there just wanted Lod adjustment to compensate for the blur.

I want lod adjustment AND that Nvidia could enable the AA compatibility bits for the games they already have this for in the drivers and automate it a bit more. I would still need negative lod adjustment for the games they don't have the bits for.

What I don't need, is someone who says it can't be done when people are doing it already... :rolleyes:

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=336854
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169648&view=findpost&p=1211093
 
What I don't need, is someone who says it can't be done when people are doing it already...
Click to expand...

Then you need to reread my posts. A negative lod bias can be used sure (although it can only be done with d3d9 graphics engines for reasons already stated), but what you can't do is add an auto lod bias adjustment to the SGSSAA shader. That would require complex per-game hacks for the reasons I already stated.

Having an "anti-blur SGSSAA" is also impossible without per-game hacks for reasons already stated. When you adjust the AA compatibility bits this is essentially what you're doing but that will also only work with d3d9. Implementing it in the shader (which you would have to do in order to achieve what this petition proposes) is a whole other story.

I take SGSSAA done right any day over HSAA.
Click to expand...

Meh. Your loss.

I was illustrating the blur with SGSSAA and the necessity of doing something about it. I have a feeling you are more interested in discussing implementation in some set way or something have been lost in translation. I'm not saying that SGSSAA blurs because it doesn't add negative lod, but because you don't add to it (to compensate against the blur). When you add negative lod, it sharpens the image and counters the blur.
Click to expand...

Set the lod bias as low as you want, it won't help counter the blur in any way. The two are totally unrelated. With the correct AA comp. bits blurring will be resolved regardless of lod bias, without the correct bits a negative lod bias won't help reduce the blurring at all. The only thing you or nvidia can do to help resolve the blurring is to find the correct bits for each and every graphics engine, which is time consuming, difficult without thorough documentation, and will only work with d3d9.
 
NaturalViolence said:
Then you need to reread my posts. A negative lod bias can be used sure (although it can only be done with d3d9 graphics engines for reasons already stated), but what you can't do is add an auto lod bias adjustment to the SGSSAA shader. That would require complex per-game hacks for the reasons I already stated.

Having an "anti-blur SGSSAA" is also impossible without per-game hacks for reasons already stated. When you adjust the AA compatibility bits this is essentially what you're doing but that will also only work with d3d9. Implementing it in the shader (which you would have to do in order to achieve what this petition proposes) is a whole other story.
Click to expand...
I suggest you reread the threads linked and you'll see what is actually being done already. People go to lengths by using third party tool, so they can enable SGSSAA, add the hopefully correct AA compatibility bits to play the game without too much blur. When that doesn't work, people add negative lod bias to counteract the blur.

Having SGSSAA as an option in Nvidia CPL, with Nvidia adding the best AA compatibilty bits when a game exe is detected, a profile with a default negative lod applied where needed and having an option in Nvidia CPL to adjust negative lod bias if we need to sharpen a bit is all I ask for. And yes, that can be done in Nvidia Inspector already. I want it preapplied, so I only have to select SGSSAA in Nvidia CPL in most cases and perhaps adjust lod in others where I feel default isn't good enough.

Comparison screenshots of with and without the correct compatibility bits:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169648&view=findpost&p=1220253

Screenshots of the game with different lod adjustment:
link

So check the screenshots and see the difference. Don't be so hung up in the DX10+ part as in the op when you reply to my posts.
 
This petition will get you fuck all :)
Go ahead and vent your rage though.
 
I suggest you reread the threads linked and you'll see what is actually being done already. People go to lengths by using third party tool, so they can enable SGSSAA, add the hopefully correct AA compatibility bits to play the game without too much blur. When that doesn't work, people add negative lod bias to counteract the blur.
Click to expand...

The screenshots linked in your own post only further prove my point. Lowering the lod bias does not help counteract the blur, period. I see so many people in that thread using the term oversampling incorrectly. LOD bias is a totally separate enhancement meant for a totally different purpose.

Nvidia is trying to do two things which both go against what is being proposed.
1. They want every option in the nvcp to work correctly and not f**k up any games, otherwise they won't officially support it. Introducing a negative lod bias can cause issues with games that do complex texture filtering. The same goes for SGSSAA. It requires per game hacks and without thorough documentation they can't ensure that it won't cause any problems.

2. They must look to the future. Games are moving towards custom shaders and d3d10/11. They are more concerned with things like SRAA as a result.

You already have nvidia inspector. This is the best your're going to get no matter how many people sign that petition.

I'm not going to repeat my points again since I've already done it so many times.

I myself was using OGSSAA and HSAA along with a negative lod bias when possible using nhancer long before nvidia inspector existed or the major forums knew about nhancer. But even I recognize the ignorance of this request to nvidia.
 
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AMDs SSAA works differently than SGSSAA.

SGSSAA is a shader that renders to multiple offscreen render targets. The dimensions and initial sample coordinates are provided by an MSAA shader. An offset it applied at each pass to the sample coordinates. Then a filter resolves the buffer and draws to screen space.

AMDs RGSSAA/SGSSAA is a fixed function unit that oversamples the backbuffer, totally different.

Nvidia's implementation does not require a negative lod bias to counteract blur, AMDs implementation does.

AMDs implementation is also far more likely to cause artifacting, is less effective at eliminating aliasing, and does not work with d3d10+ or opengl. However it has one major advantage over nvidia's implementation, it should not collide with any post-processing effects.
 
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