Which 120hz monitor has the lowest "average" response time?

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sadbuttrue

Gawd
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So my 4th Sony FW900 has caught the dreaded loss of focus/popping bug and I'm stuck using a Samsung 2233rz. Since another FW900 could take 6 months to appear, I need something to tide me over.

Is there a 120hz display that can actually display a fluid 120fps? The Samsung 2233rz cannot. Doing 180degree turns with a high sensitivity results in blurryvision. At 60hz there is no issue, which leads me to believe the average response time is far too high. Have the new 120hz screens improved in this area, or did TN reach its limit a few years ago?

I'm not interested in manufacturer claims. Links to independent tests would be much appreciated.
 
yes newer 120hz tns are generally faster
my vx2268wm blurs visibly more than the 120hz lg i had

what you wanna look for in reviews is "ghosting"
the lower the ghosting the faster the pixel response
 
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No 120hz LCD is going to match your fw900/crt's ability to display distinct, unblurred frames at 120hz - especially when each 1hz (8.3ms) attempted screen update is new data (120fps+ maintained). Its a limitation of lcd tech.
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.. 120hz lcd's give a more fluid feel or flow since there are more screen updates per second, but they still will blur across transitions to different content-updates due to lcd response times as well as the sample and hold / retinal retension vs non-instant strobing backlights, etc. A crt would display each 120fps frame across 120hz of screen updates with no blurring... no lcd can do that. 120hz LCD's can cut some type of blur by half according to some people, and give a more fluid feel (though unless you are maintaing 120+fps I suspect this smooth feeling may be due to an effect similar to frame doubling). For my own purposes, even with a high end gpu I'd have to make some graphics eye candy tradeoffs on the most high end games to maintain 120fps anyway so that is one of many serious considerations of mine vs ever getting a 120hz lcd with the current lcd tech limitations.
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120hz LCD will blur ... because the screen won't transition fast enough. Its only capable of displaying the real response time divided into the 1000ms per second, because the response time is how long it takes to change the pixels each time a new frame is sent. 120hz is 8.3ms per hz.., if the real respone time was 7ms, it would be able to do 142.8 pixel transitions per pixel per second vs the 120 updates per second sent. if the real response times (idk what they are vs the g2g quotes on most 120hz panels) are much higher it would be a mess if the content changed every update, because the pixels wouldn't be able to update fast enough. .. .. As for maintaining 120FPS vs 120hz to get the "most" out of your 120hz panel .. your panel is capable of sending 120 updates per second, so you could send it 120frames per second or more if you wanted to utilize every screen update with a new frame.. however the response time (depending on what the real response time of the panel is) could lag behind the updates, blurring the displayed content. The 120hz panel will always try to update 120 times per second regardless of frame rate in your game of course - but if you were sending 60 frames per second, the content would potentially remain the same for two updates each frame (2hz out the 120hz per each 1/60 fps).. To me that isn't fully utilizing the screen updates to present faster game action.. its taking the same slow frame rate and doubling the frames.. yes it could still appear slightly more fluid vs 60hz screen updates but it wouldn't be presenting action any faster/more precisely. Maybe someday when its 480hz it would make more sense to me to keep the same frame displayed across two screen updates. .. ... So , long story short, to me I'd want to maintain 120fps vs the 120 screen updates per second... and the nature of the tech for various reasons means the screen will still blur some regardless... so I'm not convinced its worth the graphics bells&whistles hit vs maintaining 120 fps(that I'd personally want to maintain), the price tag on 27" 120hz , the fact that they still blur(even if reduced slightly), and the fact that they are TN.
Click to expand...
 
It would be interesting to find out the real response times of the current crop of 120hz lcds. I'd also like to know if blurring seems less the closer to 60fps you get, and worse when you maintain 120fps+.. since 60fps could be maintaining the same frame through two 1/120hz screen updates (showing the same frame for 2x 8.3ms -> 16.6ms), while at 120fps+ the lcd would have to attempt to update a discrete frame every 8.3ms vs the response time blurring and other lcd baclkight~image retention blurring issues.
 
I'm certain the response time of the Samsung 2233rz is ABOVE 8.3ms, or at least very close to it. This would mean the pixels are always in flux during fast motion, so the eyes see nothing but a blurry mess. I think what I need is an LCD with an average response time well below 5ms. It doesn't look as tho such a display exists :(
 
let's assume a tft has a reaction time of 6ms:

120fps = 6ms blur (75%) + 2ms still picture
060fps = 6ms blur (38%) + 10ms still picture
030fps = 6ms blur (18%) + 27ms still picture
001fps = 6ms blur (~0%) + 994ms still picture

digital photo frames show even less blur
but you don't really wanna use them for gaming
 
dowant120hz said:
let's assume a tft has a reaction time of 6ms:

120fps = 6ms blur (75%) + 2ms still picture
060fps = 6ms blur (38%) + 10ms still picture
030fps = 6ms blur (18%) + 27ms still picture
001fps = 6ms blur (~0%) + 994ms still picture

digital photo frames show even less blur
but you don't really wanna use them for gaming
Click to expand...

That makes sense and if true, is what I was getting at vs 8.3 ms per 1hz/120hz at 120fps+ and 16.6ms per 2hz having same frame at 60fps. So more accurately 2.3ms, 10.6ms, (a little closer to 11ms for the 60fps).
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NCX said:
Digital Versus has measured the response times

2233rz=0.2/0.25
http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-syncmaster-2233rz-p357_4495_36.html

the Acer GN245HQ is supposed to be even faster
http://www.digitalversus.com/acer-gn245hq-p357_10716_38.html

Something is seriously wrong if you see more blur with the 2233rz running @60hz, click the responsiveness section in TFT centrals review to see that it runs slower @60hz
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_2233rz.htm
Click to expand...
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.... I find that review very hard to believe for a few reasons ...
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--- I was under the impression that grey to grey response times were actually the best case to make the specs look better, and that black to white and other color transitions would be *worse* than the quoted 2ms or 5ms g2g scores most gaming TN's have.
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..---don't forget that the nature of the non-instant backlight strobing causes image retention blur to our eyes as well, so you are going to get blur on lcd's regardless in addition to the response time's failings.. and I don't see the review mentioning that blur at all.
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---Most people on 120hz threads I've read relate that you are only getting a blur reduction of around 1/2 as much (their subjective opinions from playing games on the monitor) and only on certain types of blur.. but that the feel/flow is much better (due to more screen updates per second). I don't see that review showing what I have seen as a general consensus that the blur is only "about half as much".
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--- We are talking about the entire frame transition here not updating fast enough and the totality of blur on 120hz LCDs .. not just a "mouse trail" on a single moving object that the review seems to be testing. Your FoV movement alone would be enough pixels changes on the entire panel to blur.. plus multiple characters, object, world object animations and animated textures are all moving. I'd like to know exactly how they are testing. Is there a link to that? I didn't see one at a glance. They do mention that they don't use ms to test. I didn't see how many frames per second they were pushing to the panel vs 120hz screen updates either, which makes a huge difference.
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... That review makes is sound like .000000025 ms blur honest! There are tons of exclamation points and heavy sales pitches throughout. "it slices! it dices! and its available now!" idk thats how it comes across to me.
 
NCX said:
Something is seriously wrong if you see more blur with the 2233rz running @60hz,
Click to expand...

I don't. Although I will say this, at 60hz my Dell 2209wa is far smoother than the Samsung 2233rz. I can't do choppy 60hz tho :(
 
Best test of response times is by eye, taking several pictures of bluring images on multiple monitors and comparing them. Then compare best and worst results from each monitor and go from there.

Response time numbers haven't been very accurately lately from the factory. (2ms Monitors being as responsive as 5ms.)

Look at some posts from NCX he talks about it often.
 
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I noticed some blurring at first when I got my AW2310 compared to my old 21" CRT. But what I did was get rid of the CRT. Then after 1 month or so I couldn't remember what the CRT looked like.

So I'm blocking my memories of how crisp CRT's are/were. And I stay away from CRT's.

So to me, my 120hz LCD is AMAZING! :D

but yeah... new CRT's would be awesome.
 
Druneau said:
I noticed some blurring at first when I got my AW2310 compared to my old 21" CRT. But what I did was get rid of the CRT. Then after 1 month or so I couldn't remember what the CRT looked like.

So I'm blocking my memories of how crisp CRT's are/were. And I stay away from CRT's.

So to me, my 120hz LCD is AMAZING! :D
Click to expand...
You are demonstrating your own ignorance! It is the path to the dark side. We must not forget, not chill until the makers clearly know our demands. The market is their playground, but our responsibility.
 
I have played quake 3 arena with an lg w2363d at 120hz/120fps and it was just as smooth, solid and blur free as my current lacie electron blue22 iii crt monitor. I did not do a direct side-by-side comparison at that time, but i am very sensitive with framerate and blur.

The "3d ready" requirements really makes these monitors very close to CRT. I just wish they came in 1920x1200 and a new superfast IPS tech... TN viewing angles make it difficult to see whats on the top shelves in fallout 3 :(

You should try an lg w2363d and set it in thru mode and 120hz and ensure you have >100 fps. The smooth animations and responsive/ precise mouse cursor in windows is also an unique upgrade.

This monitor is also one of the few with zero input lag.
3dvision-blog.com/review-of-the-23-lg-w2363d-120hz-full-hd-3d-gaming-monitor/

It also have good black levels
 
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