VW Used Software In 482K Diesels To Skirt US Clean-Air Rules

[kydsid]

Really? I've been around a few running TDI's and never noticed an excessive amount of fumes.

Yes. Ive seen the actual numbers. Nox is incredibly hard to control. Think about it VW was the only one to bring non scr cars to market post 2009. Well guess not legally.

 

[Deleted member 126051]

Pollution is a left wing conspiracy to take away our things because they hate our freedoms? And stuff?

Repeat after me. SAY NO TO DRUGS!

 

[sliverjazz]

One can make a case that a mega volcano expells more pollution than we have had as a human race.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

So the US Gov allowed a USA company "GM" to kill 174 people and gets a slap on the wrist

VW, a German company killed no one and said infraction involved no lives lost nor a life ending matter (emissions) gets slapped with a "possible" 18 BILLION dollar fine.

Hmmmmmmm could this be payback for VW not joining the union thugs sponsored by the fed gov.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

So the US Gov allowed a USA company "GM" to kill 174 people and gets a slap on the wrist

VW, a German company killed no one and said infraction involved no lives lost nor a life ending matter (emissions) gets slapped with a "possible" 18 BILLION dollar fine.

Hmmmmmmm could this be payback for VW not joining the union thugs sponsored by the fed gov.

It does sound crazy, but it has everything to do with how the laws are written, and is more na oversight than anything else.

There is currently no law that says automakers have to take action on safety flaws. There is also no law that says they have to disclose said safety flaws. The $900M fine that was levied against GM was arrived at with great difficulty, because the government didn't have much of note to charge them with.

See this story.

The clean air act - on the other hand - has plenty of very specific language that tells you exactly what kind of fine to expect for what kind of violation.

IIt's also worth noting that th epotential $18 billion that Volkswagen COULD be fined is a maximum. There is - from what I understand - no minimum. So it could theoretically be MUCH MUCH lower.

This might actually be a good time to buy VAG stock. The market already seems to have priced in a $20B writeoff, but chances are the real fine will be much lower, so at worst the fine will actually be $18B, and the stock will remain where it is. If - however - the fine winds up being lower, expect the stock price to surge immediately.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

I see what your saying Z and I do understand it. I just find it crazy that there is 2 standards. What GM did was done on purpose as was what VW did. One cost lives the other didn't. The possible fines just don't make sense.

Odd tho that the gov agency that pushed this (EPA) just poisoned a river on purpose and who has been held responsible, no one The EPA just caused the biggest pollution event in the USA and where is the justice. Seems the EPA broke every "law" on the books inref to that river incident.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

Repeat after me. SAY NO TO DRUGS!

That's exactly what I would expect a member of the Eelumernati to say.

We R on 2 U

 

[xX_Jack_Carver_Xx]

The Japanese are doing it too. Any "car guy" with a nose can tell the exhaust is fishy as hell when they accelerate in front of you on the highway.

 

[evilsofa]

One can make a case that a mega volcano expells more pollution than we have had as a human race.

...the definition of a "mega volcano" being one of the sort that ends human civilization (see: volcanos with a VEI greater than 8) Ordinary volcanic activity, such as has been seen over the past few thousand years, sees volcanoes releasing about as much each year as humans now do every three days.

 

[c3141hf]

That's because the NOx portions of the emissions are clear gasses.

The thick fumes come from the particle portion of diesel fumes. This is the area diesels have improved the most since the 70's

People breath NOx all the time when they go to the dentist's office.

I think VW TDI owners are going to be pissed when they find out that the EPA mandated "fix" (reading raping and pillaging) of their vehicle kills their performance and fuel mileage.

 

[evilsofa]

The EPA just caused the biggest pollution event in the USA

Worse than the BP oil spill in the Gulf? Worse than the Love Canal? Worse than the asbestos in Libby Montana? Worse than the TVA Kingston Fossil Plant Coal Fly Ash Slurry Spill? Worse than the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

 

[Deleted member 136890]

Worse than the BP oil spill in the Gulf? Worse than the Love Canal? Worse than the asbestos in Libby Montana? Worse than the TVA Kingston Fossil Plant Coal Fly Ash Slurry Spill? Worse than the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

Sorry I should have worded so that it is referenced to what the EPA themselves did. All of what you mentioned was not caused by the EPA.

 

[sfsuphysics]

So the US Gov allowed a USA company "GM" to kill 174 people and gets a slap on the wrist

VW, a German company killed no one and said infraction involved no lives lost nor a life ending matter (emissions) gets slapped with a "possible" 18 BILLION dollar fine.

Hmmmmmmm could this be payback for VW not joining the union thugs sponsored by the fed gov.

You realize that the "US government" doesn't exist as a single entity that does all this shit right? The same part that went after Wesley Snipes for tax evasion is not the same part going after VW either.

 

[nutzo]

Yes, follow the money to those all-powerful environmental companies raking in the big bucks...poor Exxon, Chevron, Ford, VW, etc, can't even begin to play in those lofty leagues of high profits.

Here in California the government make more off a gallon of gas (in taxes) than the oil companies make in profit, after they do all the work of drilling, transporting, refining, etc.

 

[c3141hf]

Worse than the BP oil spill in the Gulf? Worse than the Love Canal? Worse than the asbestos in Libby Montana? Worse than the TVA Kingston Fossil Plant Coal Fly Ash Slurry Spill? Worse than the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

1.The BP Oil Spill was a result of corrupt government investigators partying with BP rather than doing their job (disproving the notion that the EPA does any good).

2.Love Canal was a government caused disaster. Love Canal started out as a US Military dumping site before being bought out by a private chemical company. Chemical company safely disposed of chemicals. Local city stole the property from chemical company at gunpoint and despite their warnings, started building and digging and broke containment.

3.TVA is a federally owed corporation.

Only the Exxon Valdez has no government fault.

 

[Kueller]

It does sound crazy, but it has everything to do with how the laws are written, and is more na oversight than anything else.

There is currently no law that says automakers have to take action on safety flaws. There is also no law that says they have to disclose said safety flaws. The $900M fine that was levied against GM was arrived at with great difficulty, because the government didn't have much of note to charge them with.

See this story.

The clean air act - on the other hand - has plenty of very specific language that tells you exactly what kind of fine to expect for what kind of violation.

IIt's also worth noting that th epotential $18 billion that Volkswagen COULD be fined is a maximum. There is - from what I understand - no minimum. So it could theoretically be MUCH MUCH lower.

This might actually be a good time to buy VAG stock. The market already seems to have priced in a $20B writeoff, but chances are the real fine will be much lower, so at worst the fine will actually be $18B, and the stock will remain where it is. If - however - the fine winds up being lower, expect the stock price to surge immediately.

Before you go betting your retirement, remember the US government fine isn't the only liability from this scandal.

There's the recall itself.
There's the cost of whatever program VW voluntarily initiates to try to keep the most of their current owners from joining civil suits.
There's whatever civil suits are filed by current owners for being defrauded at the time of sale, then having their cars gimped as a result of the recall, and finally the impact that will have on their resale value.
There's still an open question of whether VW did this in EU markets as well.
I wouldn't put it past dealership owners to sue VW as well for damage to their reputations...but their franchising agreements may have language that precludes this, I have no idea.

 

[timta2]

1.The BP Oil Spill was a result of corrupt government investigators partying with BP rather than doing their job (disproving the notion that the EPA does any good).

That's utter bullshit. It was caused by the drive for higher corporate profits and quicker extraction of oil. BP was completely at fault. The EPA doesn't operate those drilling platforms.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

That's utter bullshit. It was caused by the drive for higher corporate profits and quicker extraction of oil. BP was completely at fault. The EPA doesn't operate those drilling platforms.

Its' either the EPA's fault because they stopped something, or it's the EPA's fault because they didn't stop something. All of it has nothing to do with the EPA, and everything to do with the fact that pollution doesn't exist, it's all a conspiracy by the liberal media, some minorities, and some weather balloons. The EPA is just there because they hate our freedoms? And stuff?

 

[tetris42]

1.The BP Oil Spill was a result of corrupt government investigators partying with BP rather than doing their job (disproving the notion that the EPA does any good).

Is that what the history textbooks are saying now?

Let's have a thought exercise and say you're right for a second. The regulations would pretty clearly say what BP needed to have in order to operate safely. They didn't, because that would cost more money. Now let's say a corrupt government inspector looks the other way. Fine, they got away with not getting inspected, that doesn't mean they're still not liable as all hell for skimping on outlined safety requirements in order to save a buck. You're talking like the government was there in scuba gear planting C4 on the rig.

Its' either the EPA's fault because they stopped something, or it's the EPA's fault because they didn't stop something. All of it has nothing to do with the EPA, and everything to do with the fact that pollution doesn't exist, it's all a conspiracy by the liberal media, some minorities, and some weather balloons. The EPA is just there because they hate our freedoms? And stuff?

This sounds like a pretty accurate summary I've heard of people who want to abolish the EPA and rely on the caring hand of profit-driven corporations to enforce themselves and clean up the enforcement. Because they love spending extra money to handle pollution responsibly.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

This sounds like a pretty accurate summary I've heard of people who want to abolish the EPA and rely on the caring hand of profit-driven corporations to enforce themselves and clean up the enforcement. Because they love spending extra money to handle pollution responsibly.

You could point out that it was the EPA that caught Volkswagen while the EU lets companies do their testing internally so nobody was the wiser over there. People had been noticing that cities were starting to have problems with air quality in Europe again since the huge "buy diesel" push started a decade and change ago. This effects 11,000,000 vehicles worldwide.

At least that's what you might point out if you were a statist, socialist, freeloading drain on America. If you were an intelligent man you would know that almost all scientists and medical doctors have been bribed to fabricate controversy about "air pollution". Air pollution? HA! Next thing people will be telling us that lead is bad for our crops.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

This is what VW did wrong

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-22/dear-volkswagen-was-your-biggest-mistake

 

[c3141hf]

Is that what the history textbooks are saying now?

Let's have a thought exercise and say you're right for a second. The regulations would pretty clearly say what BP needed to have in order to operate safely. They didn't, because that would cost more money. Now let's say a corrupt government inspector looks the other way. Fine, they got away with not getting inspected, that doesn't mean they're still not liable as all hell for skimping on outlined safety requirements in order to save a buck. You're talking like the government was there in scuba gear planting C4 on the rig.

This sounds like a pretty accurate summary I've heard of people who want to abolish the EPA and rely on the caring hand of profit-driven corporations to enforce themselves and clean up the enforcement. Because they love spending extra money to handle pollution responsibly.

Or you can introduce a system of private property rights and let the property owners collect damages from BP.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Here in California the government make more off a gallon of gas (in taxes) than the oil companies make in profit, after they do all the work of drilling, transporting, refining, etc.

Let me shed crocodile tears and play the world's tiniest violin for those poor, poor, largest companies in the world.

Why the 3 largest, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon, and BP only brought in $1.1T in revenue between these 3 alone in their last fiscal year. Those poor put upon bastards, we should definitely expand upon the hundreds of billions of worldwide oil subsidies each year.

Or you can introduce a system of private property rights and let the property owners collect damages from BP.

Right, because diverse, fragmented interests with less money usually do well in a court of law against single issue monoliths with deep legal budgets.

Meanwhile, a huge corporation creates a hack to pollute more, and this is...the government's fault. Got it. News update: VW says 11M vehicles worldwide are affected.

 

[sliverjazz]

The problem is the stupid EPA. We could have diesels getting 80 MPG but putting out NOX gasses, to get those NOX gasses down to EPA standards means lowering MPG to less than half and burning more fuel!

 

[Kueller]

The problem is the stupid EPA. We could have diesels getting 80 MPG but putting out NOX gasses, to get those NOX gasses down to EPA standards means lowering MPG to less than half and burning more fuel!

It's not the EPA's fault VW didn't want to implement a urea injection system on their diesels. No reason we can't have both great mileage and low NOx emissions, just gotta refill the urea reservoir at oil change time.

 

[mope54]

This is what VW did wrong

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-22/dear-volkswagen-was-your-biggest-mistake

I think what they did "wrong" was build a factory in Russia:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/04/volkswagen-russia-engines-idUSL5N11A1A920150904

You could point out that it was the EPA that caught Volkswagen while the EU lets companies do their testing internally so nobody was the wiser over there.

Besides the fact the EPA didn't catch VW, they also rely on companies' internal testing, too, just like other governments' regulating bodies.

 

[kydsid]

It's not the EPA's fault VW didn't want to implement a urea injection system on their diesels. No reason we can't have both great mileage and low NOx emissions, just gotta refill the urea reservoir at oil change time.

To be fair the Passat which has urea injection didnt pass either. It was roughly half the ouput of the non scr tdi but still had 10 to 20 times allowallble levels.

The only engine tested at this point in the same group was the V6 SCR equipped BMW x35d.

 

[Mohonri]

Let me shed crocodile tears and play the world's tiniest violin for those poor, poor, largest companies in the world.

Why the 3 largest, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon, and BP only brought in $1.1T in revenue between these 3 alone in their last fiscal year. Those poor put upon bastards, we should definitely expand upon the hundreds of billions of worldwide oil subsidies each year.

Yeah, $1.1T. Of which 90% was paid out for employees, equipment, etc. They also pay massive quantities of taxes. Their profits are only huge because the energy industry is huge. As a percentage of revenue, their profits are...kinda normal.

The point still stands that state and federal governments get far more profits off the production and sale of gasoline the oil companies, refiners, and gas stations.

 

[Probleminfected]

The problem is the stupid EPA. We could have diesels getting 80 MPG but putting out NOX gasses, to get those NOX gasses down to EPA standards means lowering MPG to less than half and burning more fuel!

Agreed...

I know somebody who removed all their emissions devices and got a custom tune that doubled their fuel mileage. I'll say it again, doubled!!!

 

[Chaos Machine]

The problem is the stupid EPA. We could have diesels getting 80 MPG but putting out NOX gasses, to get those NOX gasses down to EPA standards means lowering MPG to less than half and burning more fuel!

The problem has nothing to do with mileage or the EPA , NOX contributes to deaths caused by respiratory issues like asthma and emphysema. Your basic argument is "Screw sick people, I have a God given right to more MPG. Smog? Check out them sunrises and sunsets!". There is a time and place to take a shot at the EPA for their heavy-handedness, this is not one of them.

 

[sliverjazz]

An analogy would be if you have a car with 4 flat tires, turbo charging the engine to make 100HP more won't make much a difference because you have flat tires - the problem is the flat tires

 

[TwistedAegis]

Yeah, $1.1T. Of which 90% was paid out for employees, equipment, etc. They also pay massive quantities of taxes. Their profits are only huge because the energy industry is huge. As a percentage of revenue, their profits are...kinda normal.

The point still stands that state and federal governments get far more profits off the production and sale of gasoline the oil companies, refiners, and gas stations.

There's this great thing called Google where you can get quantitative information.

2012, the most recent year I could find available:

State and local gas tax revenues: $41,447,220,000
Federal gas excise tax revenue: $24,766,580
(source: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/)

2012 US oil company profits: $118,100,000
(source: http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/big-oil-big-profits-industry-tops-120-billion-in-2012)

That's simply the top 5 companies, not even all of them. Via the same source, these same 5 companies also made profits of $1.02T from 2003-2012.

It's a simple fact, they make more money from this than the government does. Draw your own conclusions on what that actually means, if anything.

 

[Frankie]

Only in the United Socialist Republicks of America could a car company have their money stolen for making a less polluting, more fuel efficient vehicle.

The problem with the EPA's "regulations" is that they only look at emissions per unit of fuel burned rather than emissions per unit of distance driven. That penalizes more fuel efficient vehicles.

The "fix" that the EPA fuckwits will mandate on the VW TDI's will reduce mileage and performance, and increase pollution. This is the price you pay for allowing unelected, pencil pushing bureaucrats, to act as law maker, judge, jury, and executioner.

Theyre measured in grams or mg per mile, so you're just wrong.

And if they're putting out 40x the max nox, in order to be less polluting they'd have to be getting 40x better mileage, which they're obviously not.

Pretty much everything you've said on television subject is just dead wrong

 

[Frankie]

Television=the. stupid samsung.

 

[WuTangClam]

There's this great thing called Google where you can get quantitative information.

2012, the most recent year I could find available:

State and local gas tax revenues: $41,447,220,000
Federal gas excise tax revenue: $24,766,580
(source: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/)

2012 US oil company profits: $118,100,000
(source: http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/big-oil-big-profits-industry-tops-120-billion-in-2012)

That's simply the top 5 companies, not even all of them. Via the same source, these same 5 companies also made profits of $1.02T from 2003-2012.

It's a simple fact, they make more money from this than the government does. Draw your own conclusions on what that actually means, if anything.

And then a big chunk of the tax revenue gets transferred back to the oil companies in the form of government subsidies. And the long term costs of accidents caused be recklessness/incompetence are simply transferred to local residents.

 

[c3141hf]

The problem has nothing to do with mileage or the EPA , NOX contributes to deaths caused by respiratory issues like asthma and emphysema. Your basic argument is "Screw sick people, I have a God given right to more MPG. Smog? Check out them sunrises and sunsets!". There is a time and place to take a shot at the EPA for their heavy-handedness, this is not one of them.

Do you have evidence of someone who directly died from Diesel NOX emissions or are you just talking out of your ass like a good statist.

 

[david_]

No, please suck tailpipe for us and let us know how it goes.

 

[tetris42]

Or you can introduce a system of private property rights and let the property owners collect damages from BP.

Are you serious? I'm trying not to be a smartass here, but I see really obvious problems with that:

1. Pollution doesn't care about borders. If a company pollutes in a river that travels down to 8 states, that's 8x the paperwork and 8x less efficient. What if one state has really good enforcement, but the next state barely has paved roads? It would be like the old movies where the cops give up chasing the criminal once he crosses the state line.

2. Large corporations typically will be able to afford the best legal representation available, whereas individuals don't or else can't afford any at all. How is that natural advantage balanced? Yes, you could have class action lawsuits, but A) that wouldn't cover smaller cases where pollution only affects a few people and B) class action lawsuits would STILL be at a disadvantage every time the state line was crossed, because that divides up the people affected for each state.

3. Court cases often get tied up for years. How is action taken RAPIDLY to cleaning up pollution when everyone is in courtrooms arguing about property rights?


I don't think anyone is arguing that the EPA has room for improvement, but when I hear "leave it up to private property rights" what I'm hearing is "we should abolish real enforcement of pollution, corporations have MUCH higher leniency towards polluting and getting away with it, and let's make everything 10x more complicated and less effective by tying everything up in court, per state, only for those individuals who can afford it" By all means, someone explain to me why that wouldn't be the case.

 

[evilsofa]

Perhaps when he talks about "a system of private property rights", he's speaking of private citizen militias that shoot bad guys like corporate polluters?

 

[Frankie]

Do you have evidence of someone who directly died from Diesel NOX emissions or are you just talking out of your ass like a good statist.

Lol, says the person that's done nothing but talk out of his ass this entire thread.