The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center

locutus24 said:
http://www.nsa.gov/about/faqs/oversight.shtml

"The executive order, however, prohibits the collection, retention, or dissemination of information about U.S. persons except pursuant to procedures established by the head of the agency and approved by the Attorney General."
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You must not remember the NSA Whistleblowers who came out and said the NSA was ignoring this. There was a version of their monitoring software that would encrypt the information of US citizens until a warrant is produced.

They stripped that safeguard.

If the Constitution is optional to the Government, then the Social Contract is null and void. Obama isn't President. Congress isn't the Legislature. The FBI is just a gang of thugs with guns, and this isn't the United States of America.

Leadership by example.
 
Naieve said:
If the Constitution is optional to the Government, then the Social Contract is null and void. Obama isn't President. Congress isn't the Legislature. The FBI is just a gang of thugs with guns, and this isn't the United States of America.

Leadership by example.
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1. The social contract is a myth.

2. It's not just the FBI, it's the entire group of liars, thieves, and killers known as Government, all of them.
 
sfsuphysics said:
So it's building the biggest because the one they're building is larger than the already biggest spy center (the one they also own) ??
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With so many encryption technologies, they would need massive amount of supercomputers center to crack them :p
 
With so many encryption technologies, they would need massive amount of supercomputers center to crack them
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I think a data center that uses 65 mw of juice can do this. If the rumors are true, then their super computer will be able to do just about anything they want it to do.
 
...and why haven't we started another revolution yet?

to believe this won't be used against american citizens is just dumb.

they have every intention of logging everything...completely against why we exist.
 
It states in that article that they listen to peoples cell phone conversations in real time and without a warrant, and not just USA citizens either. What they are doing is illegal and they just don't give a fuck if it is illegal or not. Just like that J.E. Hoover dbag.
 
ninjaturtle said:
IMO, I think it is the other way around.

2. I think everyone should encrypt their stuff.
3. We should all get together and send them "seven zettabytes of "explicit images""
:)
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Only EDI would be able to process that much pr0n.
 
I would like to think this is for the citizens of America, but I think its not.

You are being treated like farm animals, no choice (The political system you have is corrupt in my opinion), this should be a wake up moment.

The reality is you will bow down to the "World new order".
 
OP20 said:
Vote Ron Paul before its too late.
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damn straight. Although most people seem to stupid, or to obsessed with thinking they have a say in what others do when it doesn't affect them to care. The American revolution was fought over less than what the federal government is doing right now.
 
damn straight. Although most people seem to stupid, or to obsessed with thinking they have a say in what others do when it doesn't affect them to care. The American revolution was fought over less than what the federal government is doing right now.
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Problem really is who wants to revolt against the U.S military. Trying to over throw the american government would be like trying to jump over the grand canyon on a motor bike. Sure it could be done, but what are the odds of it being successful.

Oh wait maybe we can look to the confederates for advice. :D

While yes i do agree Ron Paul to be the best candidate for president. Why? because hes been preaching the same stuff for years. Those other guys just make false promises and say they can do X and Y, just to get people to vote for them. Sad part about this is that it is working. How ever even if Ron Paul were to win the election he would still be severely limited to what he can actually accomplish due to the nature of how our government works/ operates.

As for this spy center. The american people gave the NSA the funds and the power to complete such a project. We gave away some of our liberties for some temporary security. The Government will try and soak up as much power as you let them have, its our job to keep them in check, but we continually fail ourselves. Its a downward spiral one i hope to ditch and move elsewhere.
 
Eisenblut said:
Only EDI would be able to process that much pr0n.
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I bet EDI is into some really kinky shit.

Manaknight said:
...and why haven't we started another revolution yet?
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Because tanks and jets win a fight against pickup trucks and shotguns. Also where you see "new world order" and "big brother" most people don't.

to believe this won't be used against american citizens is just dumb.

they have every intention of logging everything...completely against why we exist.
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Just because they are the NSA doesn't mean they have the ability to actually log everything. For the NSA to log everything they would need *massive* co-operation from every ISP out there, and they would need data centers located in a ton of places to be on all the major interconnects between ISPs. One data center in the middle of nowhere can't log shit because none of the data is flowing anywhere close to it. Its location makes using it to actively log data incredibly unlikely. It may be for storage of data other centers are logging, but this one in particular isn't going to be doing much logging.
 
I hope they build a really large building.... Construction means I have a job :)
 
Because tanks and jets win a fight against pickup trucks and shotguns. Also where you see "new world order" and "big brother" most people don't.
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not all wars are won via brute force. Would be funny to see a bunch of people with shotguns and pick up trucks try and take on the military though. Wait its already happening in other places. Doesn't turn out well for them.

of course the ordinary person doesn't see "big brother" or "new world order". Ignorance is bliss. Its not on the news, and well they want to keep it that way. How do you keep a slave happy? you don't educate them, so they don't know a better life could be had.
 
ebduncan said:
Problem really is who wants to revolt against the U.S military. Trying to over throw the american government would be like trying to jump over the grand canyon on a motor bike. Sure it could be done, but what are the odds of it being successful.

Oh wait maybe we can look to the confederates for advice. :D

While yes i do agree Ron Paul to be the best candidate for president. Why? because hes been preaching the same stuff for years. Those other guys just make false promises and say they can do X and Y, just to get people to vote for them. Sad part about this is that it is working. How ever even if Ron Paul were to win the election he would still be severely limited to what he can actually accomplish due to the nature of how our government works/ operates.

As for this spy center. The american people gave the NSA the funds and the power to complete such a project. We gave away some of our liberties for some temporary security. The Government will try and soak up as much power as you let them have, its our job to keep them in check, but we continually fail ourselves. Its a downward spiral one i hope to ditch and move elsewhere.
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Agreed. There's absolutely nothing anyone can do until a majority of the public wakes up to what is going on. Given how oblivious the average person is I have a feeling that won't happen until this house of cards falls apart; which is looking more and more likely simply looking at the way the federal government is spending us into oblivion. Eventually the whole charade will collapse with the trajectory it's following. Hopefully when it does we're able to put it back together the way is was intended to be. With the people's natural rights first, then the state and the federal government a distant third.
 
ebduncan said:
of course the ordinary person doesn't see "big brother" or "new world order". Ignorance is bliss. Its not on the news, and well they want to keep it that way. How do you keep a slave happy? you don't educate them, so they don't know a better life could be had.
Click to expand...

I was more implying you are making quite the jump from "government agency is building a data center" (something fairly boring - pretty much everyone is building a data center these days) to "government is tracking, logging, and breaking encryption on everything everyone does!"

You are no more educated on this than the general public is - you just think you are. You are eagerly gobbling up what the media is feeding you while simultaneously complaining about others doing the same ;)

wtiger said:
Agreed. There's absolutely nothing anyone can do until a majority of the public wakes up to what is going on. Given how oblivious the average person is I have a feeling that won't happen until this house of cards falls apart; which is looking more and more likely simply looking at the way the federal government is spending us into oblivion. Eventually the whole charade will collapse with the trajectory it's following. Hopefully when it does we're able to put it back together the way is was intended to be. With the people's natural rights first, then the state and the federal government a distant third.
Click to expand...

You are no more "awake" to what's going on than the general public is. You're getting your information from wired after all.

What will really happen in a couple of years is this data center will be obsolete - just like the ones built 4-5 years ago are obsolete now. I'm sure they'll eventually be able to brute force 128-bit AES in a reasonable amount of time - with things like GPU compute you can test an obscene amount of passwords these days - but that will just result in using a stronger encryption for anything really secret, such as ECDSA. The cost difference between encrypting and breaking is just staggering as well. The NSA hopes to be able to break the encryption that a <$1 chip can quickly create with a $2B facility.

The fun thing is that the NSA is playing catch up, and likely always will be. They are fighting on a battlefield where the government doesn't really have an advantage. After all, you've got companies like Google that keep several copies of the internet *in RAM*. And companies like Akami that have the largest, fastest networks out there. It doesn't sound like this facility is really all that much bigger than what the private sector is doing, either. Wired has estimates of $2B and ~65 megawatts of power - Apple's recently complete data center cost $500 million and gets 20 megawatts from a 100-acre solar farm they built. Facebook is building a second data center with plans for a third next to their current 28 megawatt, 300,000 sq ft data center (which dwarf's the NSA's 100,000 sqft). Not to mention the companies that are actually building the tech the NSA will be using in the first place.
 
kllrnohj said:
I was more implying you are making quite the jump from "government agency is building a data center" (something fairly boring - pretty much everyone is building a data center these days) to "government is tracking, logging, and breaking encryption on everything everyone does!"

You are no more educated on this than the general public is - you just think you are. You are eagerly gobbling up what the media is feeding you while simultaneously complaining about others doing the same ;)



You are no more "awake" to what's going on than the general public is. You're getting your information from wired after all.

What will really happen in a couple of years is this data center will be obsolete - just like the ones built 4-5 years ago are obsolete now. I'm sure they'll eventually be able to brute force 128-bit AES in a reasonable amount of time - with things like GPU compute you can test an obscene amount of passwords these days - but that will just result in using a stronger encryption for anything really secret, such as ECDSA. The cost difference between encrypting and breaking is just staggering as well. The NSA hopes to be able to break the encryption that a <$1 chip can quickly create with a $2B facility.

The fun thing is that the NSA is playing catch up, and likely always will be. They are fighting on a battlefield where the government doesn't really have an advantage. After all, you've got companies like Google that keep several copies of the internet *in RAM*. And companies like Akami that have the largest, fastest networks out there. It doesn't sound like this facility is really all that much bigger than what the private sector is doing, either. Wired has estimates of $2B and ~65 megawatts of power - Apple's recently complete data center cost $500 million and gets 20 megawatts from a 100-acre solar farm they built. Facebook is building a second data center with plans for a third next to their current 28 megawatt, 300,000 sq ft data center (which dwarf's the NSA's 100,000 sqft). Not to mention the companies that are actually building the tech the NSA will be using in the first place.
Click to expand...

The news isn't really about the data center itself. The "big picture" takeaway is that they aren't even pretending to be following the law anymore; they're becoming much more open about blatantly spying on literally everybody, and they're continually gauging our reactions to see how much more they can get away with.
 
Argh. Two days ago, I said,
Mini-Me said:
This never-ending expansion can't continue forever, but a pervasive control grid has the potential to do a lot of damage while it lasts, and it greatly troubles me that this government is so hellbent on constructing one. I think they're fully willing to nationalize industries, institute martial law, and debase the currency until we're all starving rather than voluntarily retreat in the face of economic woes. Even after the petrodollar collapses and the dollar hyperinflates, I still don't expect the government to actually cut spending, especially in areas that perpetuate their control grid. If they want to keep up appearances and avoid adding zeros to the money like Zimbabwe, they may just move off the books like the USSR and demand people work for the government as a civic duty (Rahm Emmanuel style).
Click to expand...

As it turns out, Obama signed something called NDRP (National Defense Resources Preparedness) that very day as an executive order, which effectively authorizes the government to seize control of all virtually all material resources and even labor (PEOPLE) in the country in the event of a declared "national emergency." "Rahm Emmanuel style," indeed. Taken all the way, that's a straight up Communist transformation overnight. Exactly what power does this administration think the government DOESN'T have?
 
I was more implying you are making quite the jump from "government agency is building a data center" (something fairly boring - pretty much everyone is building a data center these days) to "government is tracking, logging, and breaking encryption on everything everyone does!"

You are no more educated on this than the general public is - you just think you are. You are eagerly gobbling up what the media is feeding you while simultaneously complaining about others doing the same
Click to expand...

wow dude. First i never claimed to be more educated. Second calling me uneducated is ignorant as you know nothing about me or my life. I also never said that the government is tracking logging and breaking encryption on all Americans. I merely pointed to the fact that they could monitor American's and impose on our rights.
 
TheBluePill said:
For all intents and purposes, it now only applies to what is between your ears.

They say you give up your 4th now when you enter an Airport, Train Station, Public Highway or even outside of your home. (From the TSA to DUI Checkpoints)

Now, with electronic tools, that goes even to content or thoughts conveyed electronically. (SMS being used in court, Torrents, even forced decryption of private computers and phones).

There is no such thing as privacy or respect of a person. Its a myth and illusion. It has been gone for some time.
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I ran into a similar thing at college. I was parked in the visitor's lot to pick up some paperwork in the administration office, but when I went back to my truck I had a parking ticket on my windshield. I went to the campus police to find out why I got the ticket since I was legitimately a visitor and they told me that they ticket all vehicles and the people that truly are visitors can file an appeal. The best part is that they only give you 14 days to pay the initial ticket or they forward the information on to the department of motor vehicles and your license is suspended. Not only are you guilty until you are proven innocent, but you are forced to pay a fine before you can even appeal the initial offense, at which time if they find your appeal has merit, they might refund your money...
 
I ran into a similar thing at college. I was parked in the visitor's lot to pick up some paperwork in the administration office, but when I went back to my truck I had a parking ticket on my windshield. I went to the campus police to find out why I got the ticket since I was legitimately a visitor and they told me that they ticket all vehicles and the people that truly are visitors can file an appeal. The best part is that they only give you 14 days to pay the initial ticket or they forward the information on to the department of motor vehicles and your license is suspended. Not only are you guilty until you are proven innocent, but you are forced to pay a fine before you can even appeal the initial offense, at which time if they find your appeal has merit, they might refund your money...
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every ticket i have ever received by a rent-a-cop i have crumbled up and threw in the trash can. I've never had any problems. They don't have the authority to write a real ticket. They just try and scare you.
 
Monkey God said:
Remember folks, the biggest flag they look for when looking for troublemakers is encryption.
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no actually the best thing you can do is encrypt material that has no defense/intelligence value. Think of it as a small particle of dirt that gums of the gear works of overreaching government. If they've grown beyond accountability to the people they can still be made to be ineffective in their overreaching by many small acts of resistance to that overreaching.

Lith1um said:
"Things that can't go on forever, don't".

U.S. National Debt divided by number of citizens of the United States of America, man, woman, and child. = $49,521.

U.S. National Debt divided per U.S. Taxpayer, $137,025.

State debt per citizen, not taxpayer, of my home state, $9,792.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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The Federal Reserve System can go on forever as it now stands. In the United States you have money by decree or fiat money with no backing other than the government's ability to pass the cost on to you "the full faith and credit of the United States". Unless people refuse to do business in dollars the system doesn't break. When large players in that system screw up and take too much risk they are simply bailed out and the cost is passed on to you the tax payer. All of the money in the system is based in debt created out of thin air. So if you want to pay off the debt that's great but realize that if you were to completely pay off the debt the US dollar would cease to exist because every bit of currency currently in circulation be it physical or digital had its basis in debt and was leveraged though fractional reserve banking into even more fiat money out of thin air. That amount of debt per citizen is only part of the story. You are taxed also via the hidden tax of inflation. Whenever "new" money is created the purchasing power of the money already in circulation goes down. This inflation is not immediate, there is a lag time so those who handle that new money first are at an advantage. The new money is not equally distributed among all money holders which is one of the fundamental logical flaws of Keynesian economics. If you did not see a reciprocal increase in your wages then you've just experienced the lowering of the quality of life you can afford.

Mini-Me said:
Oh, I agree, and the Soviet Union collapsed for financial reasons too...but their nationalization of industry and resources kept the books from really showing their bankruptcy. Rule by force, intimidation, and fear (the gulag archipelago) kept their fundamentally broken system going for over half a century, even in the face of famines. A system like that doesn't really "collapse" in the traditional sense...more like, economic conditions became so bad that the party leaders realized the people would surely hang them all soon enough. Even today, the people of North Korea are still living in a hell they can't escape...or even recognize at this point, because they've been indoctrinated to worship their dear leader.

This never-ending expansion can't continue forever, but a pervasive control grid has the potential to do a lot of damage while it lasts, and it greatly troubles me that this government is so hellbent on constructing one. I think they're fully willing to nationalize industries, institute martial law, and debase the currency until we're all starving rather than voluntarily retreat in the face of economic woes. Even after the petrodollar collapses and the dollar hyperinflates, I still don't expect the government to actually cut spending, especially in areas that perpetuate their control grid. If they want to keep up appearances and avoid adding zeros to the money like Zimbabwe, they may just move off the books like the USSR and demand people work for the government as a civic duty (Rahm Emmanuel style).
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Most of those famines were caused by interference from their system of government. For a very long time under the Tzars that area of the world was a net exporter of foodstuffs. It was not until the Tzars were overthrown by the Mensheviks who were then overthrown by the Bolsheviks(both financially backed by industrialists/bankers from the U.S. and Europe) that you began to see famines in the Russian states. Food most assuredly can/has/will be used as a weapon in more ways than one.

The U.S.S.R. didn't really collapse financially their loans were just renegotiated. Communists were renamed social democrats. Then they were able to bring in central banking full force and receive yet more loans and aid from countries that had supposedly been their arch enemies.

You can't debase a currency that is purely fiat. The only base our currency has is the ability of the government to tax the people and the ability of the fed to steal the purchasing power of the money in your possession by inflating the money supply.

Why would the politicians stop spending it's not their money they are spending it's your money. The best thing for them is they don't even have to raise taxes they just have the fed inflate more money out of nothing and they've gotten the money from you as surely as if you had handed them the cash yourself.

locutus24 said:
http://www.nsa.gov/about/faqs/oversight.shtml

"The executive order, however, prohibits the collection, retention, or dissemination of information about U.S. persons except pursuant to procedures established by the head of the agency and approved by the Attorney General."
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Which has been done. The supreme court ruled the government could not keep possession of information on U.S. citizens once it had been analyzed and found to not be of value to national security. So they went around it by having hubs all around the country hoover up information that is then data mined by computer and archived. They went even further by taking government employees out of the equation as much as possible and started using third party companies to do the analysis. Watch PBS "The Spy Factory". According to the head of the NSA at the time one of these hubs stores 16 petabytes of data/month.

Manaknight said:
...and why haven't we started another revolution yet?

to believe this won't be used against american citizens is just dumb.

they have every intention of logging everything...completely against why we exist.
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And just who would people revolt against? The centers of power are far removed from the public faces of government. Even if you were able to remove the minions of the power structure from their offices, charge them with treason, etc... You still will have the issue rear it's head in the next generation since they will most assuredly become apathetic to the issues of governance once more since they did not have to sacrifice anything to see those wrongdoings corrected.

You are most assuredly correct that the police state will be used against the people of the United States. Just look at the definition of domestic terrorism under the Patriot Act
(Sec 802)

(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended--
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;​
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or​
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and​

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.​

If you sped in your car today then you're a domestic terrorist that's how broad that is. You violated a law of the United States or of a state that was dangerous to human life. The ones under B. are even worse because the government doesn't have to prove anything to throw your rights out the window. Your actions to have to "appear to be intended" to do either 1,2, or 3.

Furthermore we now have the NDAA(National Defense Authorization Act) where you can be scooped up by the military, held indefinitely, without due process, without any proof of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Oh and apparently now U.S. citizens can be assassinated on just such a whim as well or at least that's the authority some are claiming.

Sorry if some of you may feel I got off topic there but much of this is interrelated on how the U.S. government should be limited to the powers enumerated to it in the constitution, and should have no portions of itself which are above the law/accountability to the U.S. people.
 
Mini-Me said:
The news isn't really about the data center itself. The "big picture" takeaway is that they aren't even pretending to be following the law anymore; they're becoming much more open about blatantly spying on literally everybody, and they're continually gauging our reactions to see how much more they can get away with.
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How do you figure? The only actual information we have is that the NSA is building a huge data center. They didn't say anything about the size, cost, power, usage, etc... All of that is rumors and leaks - possibly true, but possibly not as well. They certainly aren't being more open and blatant about it, it's just really hard to hide a massive construction project like that.
 
The article was written in part because someone spilled the beans on what goes inside which alleges that they were extremely lax with who they collected information on and how it was done as well.

The allegations of sidestepping legal barriers have been numerous and by numerous people and range over years. This isn't the first time it's been brought up.
 
kllrnohj said:
You are no more "awake" to what's going on than the general public is. You're getting your information from wired after all.
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You must be a government goon because here you are admitting that the public are lied to and kept in the dark when Obama promised open and transparent government during his last election campaign. Has Obama kept even *one* of his election campaign promises? I think not.
 
You are most assuredly correct that the police state will be used against the people of the United States. Just look at the definition of domestic terrorism under the Patriot Act
(Sec 802)

(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended--
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.
If you sped in your car today then you're a domestic terrorist that's how broad that

Funny because these are precisely the methods the Gov uses to enslave and control the populous.
 
What the government is doing in this thread is not much different than what corporations are doing with consumer data.
 
kontact said:
Hello? Corporations do not wiretap people's cell phones.
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Of course they don't, they don't need to. They already own the device you are speaking into *AND* the connection you are using. It's not wiretapping if you willingly give it to them.

kontact said:
You must be a government goon because here you are admitting that the public are lied to and kept in the dark when Obama promised open and transparent government during his last election campaign. Has Obama kept even *one* of his election campaign promises? I think not.
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I'm not a government goon, what gives you that idea? Also not sure what Obama really has to do with this. The president can't change all that much by himself, and if the Senate & Congress oppose what he is trying to do it's pretty much game over.
 
kllrnohj said:
I'm not a government goon, what gives you that idea? Also not sure what Obama really has to do with this. The president can't change all that much by himself, and if the Senate & Congress oppose what he is trying to do it's pretty much game over.
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So BO's head is oblivious to what his hand is signing? Good trick. This guy is a micro manager. He knows. Maybe I can try that on a hotty in the next seat at a movie. "I have no idea how my hand got up that chick's skirt?"
 
Ualdayan said:
If you read all 5 pages you would know that isn't necessary. They're building enough computer capacity that it's going to suck up as much power as 265,000 people's homes (and guess who gets to pay for all that energy consumption - it isn't a nuclear power plant so there goes a big chuck of either coal, natural gas, or oil) and they expect to be able to even crack 256-bit AES.
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So get 1000s of people to send out millions of copies of paragraphs of random letters encoded in 128bit for months. Theres lots of noise out there already. They don't have the power to decrypt that much infomation, and even if they do, it's just noise. Theyd need 1 person per person, analysing going through sorting out the noise from the actual stuff, which can be hidden in more old fashioned ways. So even then it will seem like more noise. What if they are coded in some kind of fantasy language that only you and your members know. If they decrypt more words of seemingly random letters, it's just going to seem like more nonsense.

If a method of secrecy becomes useless, then a new one gets found. You can't brute force everything, all the time. Things like context/meaning etc. They don't have the capability to monitor the whole internet and get meanings from it or know very language. This whole thing is pretty pointless, made by some moron who just thinks you can throw money (that they don't have) at some unsolvable problem.
 
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