Recent AM5 upgrade, bad luck, user upgrade or Internet went easy on it ?

L

LukeTbk

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
6,068
Just used what felt like deals on BlackFriday to upgrade to a 7900x, 64 gig DDR-5 6000mhz setup from a 3900x 32 gig 3200mhz setup.

I am not sure if a lot is new windows install vs a bloated old one or if reviewer test shorter and better made code base than mine but one of my most common work task went from 2:08 minute down to 1:01 minute. Stuff that took 50 minutes on an old 4 core 3570k something are now down to 2 minute something.

So the advertised performance are there, but the platform experience on a MSI X670-p WIFI on the latest bios has been quite bad.

  1. power on from no power, restart, wake, everything outside being in the OS seem to be terrible.
  2. 1 would not have been that big of an issue if AMD drivers did not necessitate to be installed with windows in safe mode, it is just not that they would not install otherwise despite the OS not being 24 hours old with little installed-running on it, but they jammed the computer so bad it would not restart or close, needed hard shutdown.
  3. Said drivers or the iGPU hardware seem worse than very old Intel iGPU, maybe it was seen just as a debugging tool for when your discrete GPU seem to fail.
  4. For 3, one big issue with them is that once a simple OpenGL scene get just a bit large (seem to happen when it get too close to 512mb of vram) the drivers crash and hard, the monitor become all black for a little while.

One could say why does iGPU matter on CPU that price, well the GPU market has not been that good in a long time and the 7900x/7950x are very powerful, very high core counts affair, the I need a lot of CPU while I do not mind the GPU (or not use one that has video output on it) is much clearer for them than said playing game with those instead of doing it on a 7800x3d, lot of people on Intel platform have stayed on their iGPU that support 3-4 monitor really well and can run low demand, pro vulkan-openGL industrial-visual application without much issues.

Where the reviewer at launch assumed the issues would be fixed and massed out in the first year of launch ? (as I did, I heard about the slow boot time being common, but I thought it was a 2022-early 2023 bios issue)

Has people went easy on the AM5 platform, should have stayed on my nice x570 AM4 with a 5950x instead, waiting for the second generation of AM5 motherboard (could explain in part why the 5950x stay so expensive...)?

Or was I unlucky/did not follow good AM5 protocol to setup my computer, I updated the bios first before doing anything, installed windows, tried to let AMD auto-detect drivers app do its thing.
 
I don't have anything like this setup but it seems to me like something's really wrong. What version of Windows?
 
I had noticeable stability issues on my Asus AM5 until bios 1811 came out. Mostly fail to post and once into the OS (Linux) it was fine.
 
Axman said:
I don't have anything like this setup but it seems to me like something's really wrong. What version of Windows?
Click to expand...
Made yesterday with the little microsoft tool, Windows 11, 10.0.22631 Build 22631.

The once in the OS experience being mostly fine and stable (when not trying to install driver or run a openGL scene in a Qtwidget) match mine I runned a 100% cpu-ram stress test all the first night long, was going perfectly fined in the morning, still maxing out the 200w limit with fine temps.
 
Last edited:
LukeTbk said:
Just used what felt like deals on BlackFriday to upgrade to a 7900x, 64 gig DDR-5 6000mhz setup from a 3900x 32 gig 3200mhz setup.

I am not sure if a lot is new windows install vs a bloated old one or if reviewer test shorter and better made code base than mine but one of my most common work task went from 2:08 minute down to 1:01 minute. Stuff that took 50 minutes on an old 4 core 3570k something are now down to 2 minute something.

So the advertised performance are there, but the platform experience on a MSI X670-p WIFI on the latest bios has been quite bad.

  1. power on from no power, restart, wake, everything outside being in the OS seem to be terrible.
  2. 1 would not have been that big of an issue if AMD drivers did not necessitate to be installed with windows in safe mode, it is just not that they would not install otherwise despite the OS not being 24 hours old with little installed-running on it, but they jammed the computer so bad it would not restart or close, needed hard shutdown.
  3. Said drivers or the iGPU hardware seem worse than very old Intel iGPU, maybe it was seen just as a debugging tool for when your discrete GPU seem to fail.
  4. For 3, one big issue with them is that once a simple OpenGL scene get just a bit large (seem to happen when it get too close to 512mb of vram) the drivers crash and hard, the monitor become all black for a little while.

One could say why does iGPU matter on CPU that price, well the GPU market has not been that good in a long time and the 7900x/7950x are very powerful, very high core counts affair, the I need a lot of CPU while I do not mind the GPU (or not use one that has video output on it) is much clearer for them than said playing game with those instead of doing it on a 7800x3d, lot of people on Intel platform have stayed on their iGPU that support 3-4 monitor really well and can run low demand, pro vulkan-openGL industrial-visual application without much issues.

Where the reviewer at launch assumed the issues would be fixed and massed out in the first year of launch ? (as I did, I heard about the slow boot time being common, but I thought it was a 2022-early 2023 bios issue)

Has people went easy on the AM5 platform, should have stayed on my nice x570 AM4 with a 5950x instead, waiting for the second generation of AM5 motherboard (could explain in part why the 5950x stay so expensive...)?

Or was I unlucky/did not follow good AM5 protocol to setup my computer, I updated the bios first before doing anything, installed windows, tried to let AMD auto-detect drivers app do its thing.
Click to expand...
I have had read MANY reviews about AM5 and stability issues. I want to upgrade but the platform doesn't seem super polished at this point. Probably going to take some BIOS revisions to fix some of the issues you are having. AMD drivers, generally, imho, are pretty horrible.
 
How many sticks of RAM are you using to get that 64GB? 2x32 or 4x16?

Reason I ask is that at this time, using more than 2 sticks on the AM5 platform is (generally) begging for trouble.

Also... You should not have to go into safe mode to install the AMD chipset drivers. On top of that, you can manually set the amount of RAM allocated to the integrated GPU in the BIOS - by default, I believe it is 512K (I could be wrong on this).
 
techie81 said:
Probably going to take some BIOS revisions to fix some of the issues you are having
Click to expand...
That was my guess, but we are 14 months in and 13 bios release in for that motherboard which make me a bit uneasy for temporary it is if it is not fixed by now, maybe I should try an older non beta version one.

mvmiller12 said:
How many sticks of RAM are you using to get that 64GB? 2x32 or 4x16?
Click to expand...
2x32 G.Skill 6000, CL30 the (EPO ? was still called xmp in the bios) worked on the first try.

mvmiller12 said:
Also... You should not have to go into safe mode to install the AMD chipset drivers. On top of that, you can manually set the amount of RAM allocated to the integrated GPU in the BIOS - by default, I believe it is 512K (I could be wrong on this).
Click to expand...

You can but apparently it is a bit of mostly if not all fake setting for games that look at your vram to setup default or available option and give a clue to any application that want to know, not doing actual stuff on the hardware level, it is all dynamic nothing is more or less allocated according to that option, I will certainly try too if it is a simple bios option. (According to the quick google I made after the crash)
 
Would you be willing to try Windows 10 on it just to see if it's software-related?
 
LukeTbk said:
2x32 G.Skill 6000, CL30 the (EPO ? was still called xmp in the bios) worked on the first try.
Click to expand...

Have you tried running the ram on auto? Because 99.99999% of AM5 problems are related to ram. Dual rank CL30 6000 dimms are a gigantic pain in the ass on most boards.
 
Axman said:
Would you be willing to try Windows 10 on it just to see if it's software-related?
Click to expand...
Could be interesting to try, I think I will go a bit older but non beta bios version, reinstall of a fresh Windows 11 first and try the AMD drivers software as the very first action before uninstalling a couple of Windows default installed apps.

I think it was the first time I got the must have an account and connected to the Internet (or at least no easy obvious way to go around it with this very recent windows 11 pro installer), not that a particularly mind wanting the work account anyway for easier credential transfer, but it make quick reinstall testing stuff more of a pain.
 
Also maybe don't use the automatic driver installer, try the manual install packages.
 
mvmiller12 said:
EXPO only shows up for RAM modules that explicitly have an EXPO profile
Click to expand...
But like I said, this seem to be a kit that should have it:
https://www.gskill.com/configurator...524715120&chipset=1663552499&model=1663552978

It is the flare X5, 64gb 2x32 that say AMD Expo. Maybe marketing call EXPO, XMP that they manually validated themselve that they work on that AM5 motherboard.

mvmiller12 said:
On top of that, you can manually set the amount of RAM allocated to the integrated GPU in the BIOS - by default, I believe it is 512K (I could be wrong on this).
Click to expand...
LukeTbk said:
all fake setting for games that look at your vram to setup default or available option and give a clue to any application that want to know
Click to expand...
That was a cheap (in time and money) test to do, and it changed in the task manager the number, going from 512m to 4GB seem like expected to be pure show, thing went well on some program when vram was kept at 0.4mb, the moment it went over 0.5 monitor goes black, on more recent openGL render have triangle normal issue that goes black and vertex that pop-up until it rapidly crash
 
LigTasm said:
Auto is just JEDEC timings, usually 4800mt/s to 5200mt/s depending on your modules. Worth a try. I can't even tell you how many threads and reviews I've seen with the same identical complaint by now.
Click to expand...
It does boot from power off, close, restart from windows quite well at auto 4800 thanks, can be useful during the setup phase and just put it back on when the computer will rarely be rebooted.

Did not fix without much faith otherwise the other issues.
 
TLDR, I'm going to guess, as others have here, that the problem lies with the RAM and the motherboard. Which is unfortunate if the latest BIOS update and choosing a RAM kit that was on the memory QVL for your board was not a fix.

Man it sucks that you're having such a hard time with AM5. Not that it's worth much, but I just upgraded (2 days ago) from a 5800X3D w/ a MSI X570S MAG ACE MAX w/ 128GB of 3600MHz C16 RAM to a 7800X3D w/ an Asrock X670E Steel Legend and a kit of G.Skill 96GB 6400MHz C32 RAM which is on its memory QVL. I popped out the X570S, popped in the X670E, swapped the drives, GPU and AiO over, booted the old windows install just fine (after a several minute initial boot up (memory training?)), installed the latest X670E AMD chipset drivers, did some testing to make sure everything at stock was stable, then tried XMP 6400 which was stable, then updated to the latest 2.02 BIOS (from the stock 1.28), then found that a -15 all core offset was stable via Ryzen Master (-20 in BIOS, the lowest preset, wasn't stable with my 7800X3D), then completed Buildzoid's AMD 7000 "all Hynix M Die kits can do this" settings (6000Mhz, and dropped my primary timings to 30 36 36) and gained ~10% bandwidth and dropped ~30% latency over the XMP 6400 setting in the Aida64 cache & memory benchmark.

So far so good. It even boots up faster than the X570S (after the first boot with memory changes), which I was not expecting.

I currently have only two, minor complaints. The X670E Steel Legend does not have a CMOS reset button on the I/O plate, just a jumper on the bottom of the board that has to be bridged when powered off (it is a cheaper X670E), and the CPU1 fan/water pump header does not read my Arctic Freezer II 420's pump RPM (the pump and fans as daisy chained, which is the stock configuration) - but it does have an option to set it as a water pump in BIOS, and I can set to it max RPM which did drop temps noticeably from the non-water pump standard fan setting.
 
Last edited:
Apparently MSI is particularly bad for boot time issue according to my search since, I too went with the freezer 420mm and I rapidly did find out why it was cheaper than the 360mm version when trying to fit in the Meshify 2 case, took a bit of effort to make it work.
arestavo said:
but it does have an option to set it as a water pump in BIOS, and I can set to it max RPM which did drop temps noticeably from the non-water pump standard fan setting
Click to expand...
I would be interested in this part, apparently the pump reach 100% at 40% PWM so maybe it is not a big deal to let do its things.
 
Previously I used Ryzen 7500F which doesn't have iGPU.
Then earlier this month, I upgraded to Ryzen 7700x.

My full spec:
Ryzen 7700x
ASRock B650M HDV
Ram:
1. 32gb kit Team Elite+ 5600c46
2. 16gb kit Patriot Signature 4800c40
NVMe: 1TB VenomRX OEM gen4

My experience since using 7700x:
1. Boot time using the latest bios (version 2.02) has been flawless. Even with MCR off, I can boot from cold (power off) to windows in just 7s, compared to previous bios 1.xx that needed >30s with MCR off settings.

2. The iGPU is serviceable. If the tunings are done right, it will have ~90% performance of 2200g apu.

3. The iGPU performance is affected by ram frequency. I used the team kit as it's Hynix A-Die and can be clocked to 7800c36 easily. The performance uplift is unreal and at it's max tuning, I can beat the other's score at HWBot as can be seen here (my HWBot account is riev90).

4. Because of the team kit already sold, I'm using the patriot one and using the rig for monero mining.
Due to cpu cooler I have is only Wraith Spire :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:, I run the memory at 6000mhz 40-40-40 at 1.25v only, SoC 1.2v and MCR off.
So far so good, no issues with booting (still same 7s compared to Team kit), no issues with iGPU, everything run flawlessly.

To answer your question:
1. Your board is MSI and it's well documented that MSI still lags behind the other in terms of booting time from cold boot to windows. You can try to turn the MCR On (inside the bios) to slash some seconds.

2. I don't have that issue. Perhaps you can take a look at one of your settings on bios to turn that off.

3 & 4. Like I said, I even overclocked both iGPU and the memory frequency (and tuning the timings, sub-timings, and ram termination), all work flawlessly. No issues with the driver (BTW I'm using the 23.7.1 version).

TLDR:
My 7700x (upgraded from 7500F) using ASRock B650M HDV is working flawlessly.
I would suspect the problems stem from your bios board. Perhaps you can try updating your bios.
 
riev90 said:
all work flawlessly.
Click to expand...
Would be maybe a strange question and could be becoming really rare, but does it work flawlessly for very old OpenGL application ? Did try the memory recovery affair, seem to be still quite slow vs no XMP on.
 
LukeTbk said:
Would be maybe a strange question and could be becoming really rare, but does it work flawlessly for very old OpenGL application ? Did try the memory recovery affair, seem to be still quite slow vs no XMP on.
Click to expand...
What kind of OpenGL application you want me to test?
I will try to check it after going back from work.

Regarding the memory settings:
1. Update to the latest bios
2. Find menu for "Memory Context Restore", choose enable
3. Set the XMP on, save and exit the bios
 
Last edited:
RE: iGPU
This is not an APU. This is just enough video rendering capacity to stop whiners from bitching about something Intel CPUs have and AMD CPUs don't, that they (a) don't need, and (b) won't use. This is for overspecced home NASes and diagnosing mis-seated graphics cards.

Unless your monitor displays nothing but system logs and tech support forums, get a dGPU.



RE: RAM
AMD's DDR5 controller is obnoxiously slow to boot up -- MSI's implementation especially so. It seems to get better with every BIOS update, but still -- it is what it is.

Reset BIOS to stock settings, then update it to the latest version. Enable EXPO, Memory Context Restore, and Power Down Enable on the memory. This will knock boot times down to... well, not great, but not excruciating. Boot it up, load up something that'll hammer the memory, and run it for a while to test stability. Then, hibernate the machine for a bit, boot it back up, and test stability again. And then repeat that, just to be sure.

AMD's memory controller quality is still subject to the Silicon Lottery, so don't be too terribly surprised if you need to knock the memory speed down 5-10% below rated spec to maintain stability. Though, I have to say, recent MSI BIOSes has been pretty solid for me at rated speeds.
 
XenIneX said:
RE: iGPU
This is not an APU. This is just enough video rendering capacity to stop whiners from bitching about something Intel CPUs have and AMD CPUs don't, that they (a) don't need, and (b) won't use. This is for overspecced home NASes and diagnosing mis-seated graphics cards.

Unless your monitor displays nothing but system logs and tech support forums, get a dGPU.
Click to expand...
Lot of our clients and computer at works run intel iGPU for 15 years, industrial-commercial application that have some simple 3d openGL visual do exist. For non game, solidworks level affair you cut yourself a very large market if you go dgpu alone.

XenIneX said:
Enable EXPO, Memory Context Restore, and Power Down Enable on the memory.
Click to expand...
NIce I tried MCR but not the power down enable affair.

XenIneX said:
AMD's memory controller quality is still subject to the Silicon Lottery, so don't be too terribly surprised if you need to knock the memory speed down 5-10% below rated spec to maintain stability.
Click to expand...
Should not be an issue, XMP worked first time without changing anything and passed a full night of stress test.
 
LukeTbk said:
Lot of our clients and computer at works run intel iGPU for 15 years, industrial-commercial application that have some simple 3d openGL visual do exist. For non game, solidworks level affair you cut yourself a very large market if you go dgpu alone.
Click to expand...

I mean, thats... cool for them? But, that doesn't change that you're sitting at the nexus of the performance of a component that AMD doesn't care about, and the driver stability of a component that AMD... doesn't care about.

Like, yes, there's no reason that institutional knowledge shouldn't cross over from one product category to the next. But, as Intel's driver teething issues on ARC show, the iGPU/dGPU(/APU) divide is real. So, until AMD has a couple generations of this permutation of iGPUs under their belt, I'm not trusting it for anything more than basic pixel shuffling.


LukeTbk said:
NIce I tried MCR but not the power down enable affair.
Click to expand...

PDE has been necessary for MCR to remain stable on MSI boards. Supposedly, that may not be necessary on the latest BIOS, but I don't feel like spending the next two weeks worrying about the possibility of random crashes, and -- as far as I can tell -- PDE has no negative impact on anything. So... *shrug*


LukeTbk said:
Should not be an issue, XMP worked first time without changing anything and passed a full night of stress test.
Click to expand...

When you bring MCR into it, stability can get really finnicky. One night won't tell you much when you're talking about memory timing stability across multiple reboots.
 
AM5 was a mess when it launched. As the dust has settled, IMO Asrock has the best handle on it.
 
chameleoneel said:
AM5 was a mess when it launched. As the dust has settled, IMO Asrock has the best handle on it.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear, that's why I try to get Asrock stuff even though it's not the highest quality; their software guys work wonders. I'm still running a 3770 rig because they've managed to keep the BIOS running and doing shit like NVME boot supported.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top