Linux market share passes 4% for first time

ManofGod said:
Some snap versions of programs are just as fast as their apt and flatpak versions. However, many snap version programs are not even close, such as Steam.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Flatpak seems less random when it comes to performance in comparison to Snaps.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Agreed. Flatpak seems less random when it comes to performance in comparison to Snaps.
Click to expand...
It’s not so random, Snaps hate ZFS as your primary partition, you mix those two and your in for a bad time.
The other side there is when building the package, compression algorithms play a huge role in startup performance and there is not a one size fits all, the high compression formats designed for older hardware or IoT with limited memory tank performance, but lower compression algorithms and ones with lower ratios work much better.
Most use gzip or xz for compatibility and high ratios but you can improve performance greatly by using lzo, the trade off there is a lower compression ratio on small and medium sized packages. But as the package size increases they all eventually reach a degree of parity where their differences become negligible.

Dev kits also play an important roll, Mono and Electron for one reason or another create terrible Snaps packages even if you do everything right, it has something to do with node.js and building the runtime environment.

Update:
I’m told it might not be ZFS itself but an interaction with Zsys. As that is what facilitates the nested ZFS systems that you inevitably create when running Snaps on ZFS. I said to them that if you need Zsys for compatibility then ZFS is still the root of the problem. Then we got killed by bugs and the subject changed to where the F was Steve with our cover.
 
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Lakados said:
It’s not so random, Snaps hate ZFS as your primary partition, you mix those two and your in for a bad time.
The other side there is when building the package, compression algorithms play a huge role in startup performance and there is not a one size fits all, the high compression formats designed for older hardware or IoT with limited memory tank performance, but lower compression algorithms and ones with lower ratios work much better.
Most use gzip or xz for compatibility and high ratios but you can improve performance greatly by using lzo, the trade off there is a lower compression ratio on small and medium sized packages. But as the package size increases they all eventually reach a degree of parity where their differences become negligible.

Dev kits also play an important roll, Mono and Electron for one reason or another create terrible Snaps packages even if you do everything right, it has something to do with node.js and building the runtime environment.

Update:
I’m told it might not be ZFS itself but an interaction with Zsys. As that is what facilitates the nested ZFS systems that you inevitably create when running Snaps on ZFS. I said to them that if you need Zsys for compatibility then ZFS is still the root of the problem. Then we got killed by bugs and the subject changed to where the F was Steve with our cover.
Click to expand...

Well, if Zsys is causing any kind of performance penalty ( it shouldn't), then that is another Canonical screwup.
 
Mazzspeed said:
With the advent of Flatpak, many developers simply adopted the Flatpak standard as it's universal across distro's, as opposed to packaging the application to suit individual distro's. TBH, this isn't a bad thing, and Flatpaks are simple to install.



The only way you're going to get the latest software out of the Ubuntu repo's is if the software is packaged as a Snap and actively maintained by the developer. If you want the very latest version of whatever package you're running, best to avoid the Ubuntu repo's. With the advent of Flatpak, considering most packaged distro's can access Flathub, the problem of outdated software in your distro's software store is quickly becoming a non issue.

EDIT: You can even get Wine in a Flatpak now, which is fantastic. When it comes to my Linux desktop, I tend to go for a mix of Windows/MacOS:
Click to expand...
hijack,

how do you put your icons at the bottom centre like that? Probably something easy I am missing. Using KDE6 plasma right now and I think its amazing. Big change form cinnamon that came default on Mint. I generally run XFCE, but even this beats it. imo.
 
auntjemima said:
hijack,

how do you put your icons at the bottom centre like that? Probably something easy I am missing. Using KDE6 plasma right now and I think its amazing. Big change form cinnamon that came default on Mint. I generally run XFCE, but even this beats it. imo.
Click to expand...

Right click the bar, there's a way to configure that in one of those menus.

I don't remember exactly what it's called, need to grab my laptop, but what you're looking for is literally just a few clicks away.
 
socK said:
Right click the bar, there's a way to configure that in one of those menus.

I don't remember exactly what it's called, need to grab my laptop, but what you're looking for is literally just a few clicks away.
Click to expand...
I decided to download latte dock. Probably fairly similar.
 
auntjemima said:
hijack,

how do you put your icons at the bottom centre like that? Probably something easy I am missing. Using KDE6 plasma right now and I think its amazing. Big change form cinnamon that came default on Mint. I generally run XFCE, but even this beats it. imo.
Click to expand...

You create an additional floating dock located at the bottom of the screen and add the 'Icon's only Task Manager' widget.

auntjemima said:
I decided to download latte dock. Probably fairly similar.
Click to expand...

Latte Dock isn't actively developed anymore, you will have problems with Latte Dock. Latte Dock won't work under Wayland.
 
Mazzspeed said:
You create an additional floating dock located at the bottom of the screen and add the 'Icon's only Task Manager' widget.



Latte Dock isn't actively developed anymore, you will have problems with Latte Dock. Latte Dock won't work under Wayland.
Click to expand...
Turns out I have KDE 5.xx, not 6. I couldn't really find any information about using it on mint.

Using Latte dock now on Mint 21.3 with KDE5. Usually I can choose Wayland when I pick a DE at the login screen, but with plasma I don't get the Wayland option, so no harm no foul.
 
auntjemima said:
Using Latte dock now on Mint 21.3 with KDE5. Usually I can choose Wayland when I pick a DE at the login screen, but with plasma I don't get the Wayland option, so no harm no foul.
Click to expand...

Are you still running Mint with KDE Plasma as an additional DE?
 
auntjemima said:
Usually I can choose Wayland when I pick a DE at the login screen, but with plasma I don't get the Wayland option, so no harm no foul.
Click to expand...
Need the plasma-workspace-wayland package, which isn't default on kde5 I guess. I find it's a bit buggier anyway, but that may be specific to my hardware/drivers.
 
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Lakados said:
It’s not so random, Snaps hate ZFS as your primary partition, you mix those two and your in for a bad time.
The other side there is when building the package, compression algorithms play a huge role in startup performance and there is not a one size fits all, the high compression formats designed for older hardware or IoT with limited memory tank performance, but lower compression algorithms and ones with lower ratios work much better.
Most use gzip or xz for compatibility and high ratios but you can improve performance greatly by using lzo, the trade off there is a lower compression ratio on small and medium sized packages. But as the package size increases they all eventually reach a degree of parity where their differences become negligible.

Dev kits also play an important roll, Mono and Electron for one reason or another create terrible Snaps packages even if you do everything right, it has something to do with node.js and building the runtime environment.

Update:
I’m told it might not be ZFS itself but an interaction with Zsys. As that is what facilitates the nested ZFS systems that you inevitably create when running Snaps on ZFS. I said to them that if you need Zsys for compatibility then ZFS is still the root of the problem. Then we got killed by bugs and the subject changed to where the F was Steve with our cover.
Click to expand...
I tried using ZFS on my SSD and that was a big mistake. It works, so long as you don't put a custom kernel like Xanmod. In the end it wasn't faster than EXT4 and I ended up reformatting the drive to EXT4.
Mazzspeed said:
Wayland's just not there for me yet, I tend to stick to good 'ol X11.
Click to expand...
Wayland is the future but it just recently started to get support from other projects. I know Wine just added Wayland support, and Cinnamon is just getting started on it. It's so fresh that even in benchmarks it isn't faster than X11. Which is strange that Hector Martin who works on Asahi Linux for Apple Silicon was demanding people to stop using X11. The is the problem with the Linux developers in that they all have the best way of doing something, but it usually results in a less functional machine. I'm sticking with X11 until Wayland has proven to be 100% or better than X11.
pavel said:
Why? What happens?
Click to expand...
Graphic glitches, things are just missing on screen. Wayland is also not great on Nvidia, though it does work. Xwayland allows X11 applications to work on Wayland but it's not fast. Games run slower on Wayland vs X11.


View: https://youtu.be/xlvusAuDDZ0?si=UjKzD0z0VF1McSKa
 
DukenukemX said:
Wayland is the future but it just recently started to get support from other projects. I know Wine just added Wayland support, and Cinnamon is just getting started on it. It's so fresh that even in benchmarks it isn't faster than X11. Which is strange that Hector Martin who works on Asahi Linux for Apple Silicon was demanding people to stop using X11. The is the problem with the Linux developers in that they all have the best way of doing something, but it usually results in a less functional machine. I'm sticking with X11 until Wayland has proven to be 100% or better than X11.
Click to expand...

The problem with Wayland is that it's essentially broken by design. Applications essentially don't have control over their own windows. Sure, it's all in the name of security, however if you have Malware on your system - you're already pwned. Devs could have enforced no control over other process windows, but instead they chose to go full retard.

Even window positioning is a mess. I run multiple virtual desktops, with applications limited to their own virtual desktops. Under X11, I boot and everything is where it should be, under Wayland I boot and everything is lumped into the one virtual desktop.

I'm sticking with X11 right up until the bitter end, every time I've tried Wayland there's been some showstopper issue preventing me from using it, and almost all of those issues have nothing to do with the fact that I'm running Nvidia hardware/drivers. Furthermore, because Wayland is the compositor and not your WM - It's not like you can just switch WM's and everything will be roses.

/rant off
 
DukenukemX said:
tried using ZFS on my SSD and that was a big mistake. It works, so long as you don't put a custom kernel like Xanmod. In the end it wasn't faster than EXT4 and I ended up reformatting the drive to EXT4
Click to expand...
ZFS is a great software level raid solution if you are running multiple spindle drives. ZFS is highly optimized for mechanical disks and those optimizations and checks are useless for SSDs and NVMEs and more often than not the commands send to them will just burn the solid state options.

ZFS should display a warning that says:
*not recommended for solid state storage options.
Next to it on the selections menu during install.
 
Mazzspeed said:
The problem with Wayland is that it's essentially broken by design. Applications essentially don't have control over their own windows. Sure, it's all in the name of security, however if you have Malware on your system - you're already pwned. Devs could have enforced no control over other process windows, but instead they chose to go full retard.

Even window positioning is a mess. I run multiple virtual desktops, with applications limited to their own virtual desktops. Under X11, I boot and everything is where it should be, under Wayland I boot and everything is lumped into the one virtual desktop.

I'm sticking with X11 right up until the bitter end, every time I've tried Wayland there's been some showstopper issue preventing me from using it, and almost all of those issues have nothing to do with the fact that I'm running Nvidia hardware/drivers. Furthermore, because Wayland is the compositor and not your WM - It's not like you can just switch WM's and everything will be roses.

/rant off
Click to expand...

I only used Wayland once on XFCE to give it a try as it was suggested to solve a battle net black screen issue I had, and it did.

I don't have the problem on KDE so I won't bother with Wayland on that.
 
Lakados said:
ZFS is a great software level raid solution if you are running multiple spindle drives. ZFS is highly optimized for mechanical disks and those optimizations and checks are useless for SSDs and NVMEs and more often than not the commands send to them will just burn the solid state options.

ZFS should display a warning that says:
*not recommended for solid state storage options.
Next to it on the selections menu during install.
Click to expand...
The "ZFS for everything" religious phenomenon has been an interesting one on the timeline of modern computing. Off-topic, but ZFS is pretty much inescapable for anyone that's tried researching improving or expanding their storage. Just about every online guide, forum, youtuber-that-knows-just-enough-to-be-dangerous preaches it as the One Tool for every storage job, and often knee-jerk dismiss anything else in a discussion. And not always because they took the time to truly understand how it works under the hood, but because they themselves heard it from someone else, or equate safety to popularity.

It's excellent for a lot of use cases - the built-up goodwill isn't an accident. But it's complex and has gotcha's and quirks, can be easily misconfigured, data corruption bugs are still found occasionally, expansion isn't straightforward. And for the many people that don't backup, striping non-mission-critical data like home media introduces unnecessary risk that outweighs the throughput and uptime multipliers of striping. /old man waving broom
 
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AGI will fix linux in the next 3 years and it will go mainstream.
 
Just found this thread, and haven't really caught up, but I wanted to add a comment (that may or may not be relevant).

I just switched my gamin PC to Linux (Mint Cinnamon). I've been using Mint on some computers for years for various purposes, but never a machine that I use daily. However, Linux has gotten to the point where it can be used daily without much hiccup. There are still a few things that need to be ironed out to make it easier for a low-skilled user. However, for most tasks, it functions so well that anyone can learn it.

I've been using it for a few weeks, and have no reason to go back to Windows.
 
Mazzspeed said:
The problem with Wayland is that it's essentially broken by design. Applications essentially don't have control over their own windows. Sure, it's all in the name of security, however if you have Malware on your system - you're already pwned. Devs could have enforced no control over other process windows, but instead they chose to go full retard.

Even window positioning is a mess. I run multiple virtual desktops, with applications limited to their own virtual desktops. Under X11, I boot and everything is where it should be, under Wayland I boot and everything is lumped into the one virtual desktop.

I'm sticking with X11 right up until the bitter end, every time I've tried Wayland there's been some showstopper issue preventing me from using it, and almost all of those issues have nothing to do with the fact that I'm running Nvidia hardware/drivers. Furthermore, because Wayland is the compositor and not your WM - It's not like you can just switch WM's and everything will be roses.

/rant off
Click to expand...
Wayland on AMD is damn dream. I moved my nvidia card to the HTPC/Family Gaming Room and took the AMD card and put it on my office computer since I primarily run Linux there. Ever since the switch it's been a dream. Update after update, program after program no issues. Even GPU sharing with KVMs runs without issue. To each their own but the only issues I used to have dealt with screenshots on Wayland. Other than that nothing to report.
 
DPI said:
The "ZFS for everything" religious phenomenon has been an interesting one on the timeline of modern computing. Off-topic, but ZFS is pretty much inescapable for anyone that's tried researching improving or expanding their storage. Just about every online guide, forum, youtuber-that-knows-just-enough-to-be-dangerous preaches it as the One Tool for every storage job, and often knee-jerk dismiss anything else in a discussion. And not always because they took the time to truly understand how it works under the hood, but because they themselves heard it from someone else, or equate safety to popularity.

It's excellent for a lot of use cases - the built-up goodwill isn't an accident. But it's complex and has gotcha's and quirks, data corruption bugs are still being found occasionally, expansion isn't straightforward, and striping non-mission-critical data like home media introduces unnecessary risk that can be avoided with other solutions. /old man waving broom
Click to expand...
I’m having fun playing with a Microsoft ReFS stack right now and that’s been interesting. Performs really well and it was smart enough to point out the stupid shit I did and flag me for it and actually tell me how to fix it. So weird when a Microsoft error actually gives you useful information.
 
kac77 said:
Wayland on AMD is damn dream. I moved my nvidia card to the HTPC/Family Gaming Room and took the AMD card and put it on my office computer since I primarily run Linux there. Ever since the switch it's been a dream. Update after update, program after program no issues. Even GPU sharing with KVMs runs without issue. To each their own but the only issues I used to have dealt with screenshots on Wayland. Other than that nothing to report.
Click to expand...

It's total rubbish here. I thought I'd try it again with the release of Plasma 6, as I run a 27" 4k monitor and there was talk that fractional scaling was finally fixed. So I booted into Wayland, and sure enough the desktop was rendered perfectly, no disproportionate scaling, no fuzzies. I fired up a game of CS2, crazy flickering - OK I thought, explicit sync still hasn't been merged. It should have been merged by now, but I can handle that.

Upon exiting the game I went to click the KDE icon to open the Application Launcher menu, only to find that the last program in my system tray was opening instead - It seems desktop elements are in the right place visually, but to the OS they're not where the pointer expects them to be. So, once again, Wayland = a total fail.

Furthermore, as stated, only the flickering is Nvidia hardware/driver related. Everything else is specifically a Wayland implementation issue.
 
kac77 said:
Wayland on AMD is damn dream. I moved my nvidia card to the HTPC/Family Gaming Room and took the AMD card and put it on my office computer since I primarily run Linux there. Ever since the switch it's been a dream. Update after update, program after program no issues. Even GPU sharing with KVMs runs without issue. To each their own but the only issues I used to have dealt with screenshots on Wayland. Other than that nothing to report.
Click to expand...
I'm on AMD and for me Wayland sucks ass. It's ok until I want to run a game. For example, in order to run Lost Epoch I have to input a launch option to run it in an X11 window and then it hard locks the system if I alt-tab. Now I just login under X11 since it always works and it has me questioning returning the 7900XT and grabbing a 4070ti S or 4080S. I figure that by the time Wayland is actually good it will be ok on Nvidia.
:banghead:
 
Mazzspeed said:
You create an additional floating dock located at the bottom of the screen and add the 'Icon's only Task Manager' widget.



Latte Dock isn't actively developed anymore, you will have problems with Latte Dock. Latte Dock won't work under Wayland.
Click to expand...
I did a little research on the floating docks. Turns out I need 5.25.x to have the option, which is why I couldn't find it. Only 5.24.7 is available on my Mint 21.3 distro. Oh well. Latte dock for now!
 
auntjemima said:
I did a little research on the floating docks. Turns out I need 5.25.x to have the option, which is why I couldn't find it. Only 5.24.7 is available on my Mint 21.3 distro. Oh well. Latte dock for now!
Click to expand...

I don't think floating docks became an option until 5.27, although my memory isn't great so I could be wrong.

Bankie said:
I'm on AMD and for me Wayland sucks ass. It's ok until I want to run a game. For example, in order to run Lost Epoch I have to input a launch option to run it in an X11 window and then it hard locks the system if I alt-tab. Now I just login under X11 since it always works and it has me questioning returning the 7900XT and grabbing a 4070ti S or 4080S. I figure that by the time Wayland is actually good it will be ok on Nvidia.
:banghead:
Click to expand...

And meanwhile all the AMD fanbois claim "Wayland's running perfectly under AMD, all your issues are because you're running Nvidia hardware/drivers..."

Yeah...Nah. The reality is Wayland's still half baked.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I don't think floating docks became an option until 5.27, although my memory isn't great so I could be wrong.



And meanwhile all the AMD fanbois claim "Wayland's running perfectly under AMD, all your issues are because you're running Nvidia hardware/drivers..."

Yeah...Nah. The reality is Wayland's still half baked.
Click to expand...
I just installed KDE Neon instead.

Pretty sexy, but getting used to not using apt was a little something else.
 
Bankie said:
I'm on AMD and for me Wayland sucks ass. It's ok until I want to run a game. For example, in order to run Lost Epoch I have to input a launch option to run it in an X11 window and then it hard locks the system if I alt-tab. Now I just login under X11 since it always works and it has me questioning returning the 7900XT and grabbing a 4070ti S or 4080S. I figure that by the time Wayland is actually good it will be ok on Nvidia.
:banghead:
Click to expand...

Guess I'm lucky or something. I have a 7840u laptop and I've had very few issues under a Wayland session.

Didn't notice any issues on the few games I tried.

My Nvidia desktop would constantly fuck up and reset the refresh rate for reasons beyond earthly logic, though. It absolutely loved randomly resetting to 60hz because a gnat farted a mile away or something.
 
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auntjemima said:
I just installed KDE Neon instead.

Pretty sexy, but getting used to not using apt was a little something else.
Click to expand...

*Cough*

I still use apt under KDE Neon, just not for Wine. Use the Wine Flatpak instead. Although I am trying to switch to mostly Flatpak installs of all my most used software.
 
Mazzspeed said:
*Cough*

I still use apt under KDE Neon, just not for Wine. Use the Wine Flatpak instead. Although I am trying to switch to mostly Flatpak installs of all my most used software.
Click to expand...
When I ran apt it told me no such command. Ended up using pkcon, as pacman gave me the same error as apt.
 
auntjemima said:
When I ran apt it told me no such command. Ended up using pkcon, as pacman gave me the same error as apt.
Click to expand...

If you're updating the OS, KDE Neon will inform you to use pkcon. If you're installing software, you can still use apt.
 
Mazzspeed said:
You can update using apt, but it isn't recommended. KDE Neon is loosely based on Ubuntu LTS.
Click to expand...
I want to agree with you, but when I run sudo apt anythinghere it comes back with an unknown command. Maybe I don't have apt installed or something. I'm running the newest KDE Neon iso.

I'm not too worried about it.

Thanks for the help!
 
auntjemima said:
I want to agree with you, but when I run sudo apt anythinghere it comes back with an unknown command. Maybe I don't have apt installed or something. I'm running the newest KDE Neon iso.

I'm not too worried about it.

Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
The command is apt-get, not apt, iirc.
 
Code: 
echo "alias apt='apt-get'" >> ~/.bashrc && source ~/.bashrc

although this strikes me as a somewhat questionable idea
 
auntjemima said:
I want to agree with you, but when I run sudo apt anythinghere it comes back with an unknown command. Maybe I don't have apt installed or something. I'm running the newest KDE Neon iso.

I'm not too worried about it.

Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
Er...That's odd, something's not right there, as apt is running fine here.

What version of KDE Neon did you install? It it the User Edition?
 

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Mazzspeed said:
Er...That's odd, something's not right there, as apt is running fine here.

What version of KDE Neon did you install? It it the User Edition?
Click to expand...
Yeah. I figured it was better than the testing one as I just wanted to test plasma 6 at the time.
 
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