Copyright Waiver? Design Release? Hold Harmless Agreement?

usa all day

usa all day

Gawd
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Apr 20, 2021
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I'm looking at a niche where I can quickly improve crappy websites at a fair price.

I made a mock-up / redesign for a website and sent the owner an introduction email & link.

I got a reply saying that they will not to look at unsolicited design content for copyright / legal reasons, but they did look at it.
~ I'm using HubSpot so I know they read my email (they also replied) + they clicked the link & visited all the pages, etc.

I want to re-write my intro email with language that releases them from any risk of future copyright / legal BS from me & require they reply to get the link - with full understanding that I waive any right to legal tomfoolery.

It's like the opposite of an NDA but it's not "open source" either...

Any thoughts on what language I'd need or how to structure this kind of marketing?

I've seen some simple language software development contracts on github & I'm leaning toward something like that.
 
Nope. You will not be able to legally bind an agreement over email replies while maintaining no relationship with their party.

Either reach out in a strictley friendly manner and only send the link if the party is interested. Or dont send the link at all. You shouldn't send unsolicited links and honestly no one should open them.

Python could easily be used to automate an email process. There are also c based automation utilities that would be pretty easy to setup.
 
Hubspot can do what I need - if all I am doing is sending an intro / offer w/ no link.

I just wanted to give these type of businesses some "security" that I won't sue them for looking at my screenshot / mock-up & let's talk...

I found the "simple language software development contracts on github" but the guy is selling it now (open source to profit).



Here's an earlier repo - https://github.com/RandomArray/ContractKiller
 
cdabc123 said:
Nope. You will not be able to legally bind an agreement over email replies while maintaining no relationship with their party.
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Oh, wait - one of us misunderstood the other or vice versa. ;)

I don't want to legally bind them to anything.

I want to release them from ME having any right to damages or any legal mumbo jumbo if they just LOOK at my design - even if they copy it / steal it or have their nephew do it.

BTW - I guess I ignored the part - no relationship with their party.

I've "e-signed' a TON of legal docs via email, but we had an established trail of communication / relationship...
 
usa all day said:
I want to re-write my intro email with language that releases them from any risk of future copyright / legal BS from me & require they reply to get the link - with full understanding that I waive any right to legal tomfoolery.
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Why? They said 'no' so move on.

Frankly trying to "reverse NDA them" so they maybe even have a chance of looking at, or respond to, your unsolicited rewrite of their website reeks of neediness and some sort of shenanigans. If I were on the receiving end I would delete the email immediately.
 
HA! That reaction is more paranoid than the prospects.

I don't understand why giving you advance permission to look at my proposal w/ out risk vs requiring you sign an NDA to look at my proposal "sounds fishy".

This was a test for a market niche with thousands of prospects.

Email marketing is slim pickins'.

I'm looking to beat the odds with my UVP (unique value prop).

https://www.campaignmonitor.com/resources/guides/email-marketing-benchmarks/
 
You don't understand why when someone - out of the wide blue internet - pops into my email box and says "hey, I totes won't sue you for theft of ideas and here's some legal handwaving to indicate that, but I remade your website. You should take a look and we can talk money for it" sounds fishy?

It's like why writers, designers, and what not are auto deleting crazy pitch ideas for stories, and why 'clip shows' refuse to even open submissions.

You are asking me to believe some unsolicited rando that their legaleeze is trustworthy enough to not get a slapback suit if I don't take them up on their submission or redesign something that is remotely construed as the same? Naw dawg.

At best legal team will say no, and at worst someone doesn't talk to legal, engages in a bit of back and forth that ultimately leads to a 'no', and a year or so down the line when a redesign pops out a lawsuit for theft of idea and services emerges out of the forgotten dark.

What you are doing may work for some small mom and pop companies, and maybe you are a trust worthy internet rando. I would have to think any of a lower-mid to bigger company aught to not expose themselves to the risk. Not to mention a website redesign typically comes along with a company rebranding and that's generated and directed internally.

At the end of the day - you do you, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in this basket. I am staring at about fifty or so emails I've binned at work promising me to improve our processes, architecture, design, coding, assets, etc if I just go to some link and see what they have to offer.

If you are jonesing that hard to do design work why not crank up a Fiverr account (or similar) and take jobs.
 
cdabc123 said:
Either reach out in a strictley friendly manner and only send the link if the party is interested. Or dont send the link at all. You shouldn't send unsolicited links and honestly no one should open them.
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modi123 - clearly, you work in a bigger pond with bigger fish than I am trying to catch...

I'm going for mom & pops that don't have "legal teams" or need rebranding but they desperately need to update.

cdabc123 is more on point RE: revising my pitch.

Honestly, my initial pitch was already very friendly - but I didn't explicitly say "no strings attached".

They reacted with a paranoid fear like they've been sued before & maybe were even guilty of "stealing" IP before - because I know they clicked my link & surfed the site - yet they lied and said they didn't.

RE: ...staring at about fifty or so emails I've binned at work promising me...

Yeah, no-thanks India, please go away.

RE: Fiverr - see above!
 
Cool. Well as long as you acknowledge the view from the opposite end, good luck.

usa all day said:
They reacted with a paranoid fear like they've been sued before & maybe were even guilty of "stealing" IP before - because I know they clicked my link & surfed the site - yet they lied and said they didn't.
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There that is. :LOL:

They don't want to talk to you, and your immediate stance is adversarial in that they are irrationally paranoid or are guilty of IP theft before. Woaaaah boy. Maybe your next email should be "I see you looked at my redesign. Either let's talk about what you think, or else. * dun dun duuuunn * But, like, it's totes cool. I pinky promise I won't sue you if you don't use my redesign." :ROFLMAO:

giphy.gif


Absolutely love it!
 
cdabc123 said:
You shouldn't send unsolicited links and honestly no one should open them.
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Second look at this statement... do you do any sales or marketing - or respond to public RFP's to request getting on the bidders list?

Every company I've worked for (various industries) require their website link be in our signature block - even though it was already the email extension.

It's pretty normal to have an "unsolicited link" in emails - unless it is some BS short link vs COMPANYname.com
 
I am over the moon with this determined gumption! (y)
usa all day said:
. do you do any sales or marketing - or respond to public RFP's to request getting on the bidders list?
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There is a whole mess of difference between a company requesting proposals or company web addresses in signatures, and some dude rocking up with a completely done chunk of work looking for a payday.

Get you that cheddar!
 
modi123 said:
There that is. :LOL:

They don't want to talk to you, and your immediate stance is adversarial in that they are irrationally paranoid or are guilty of IP theft before. Woaaaah boy. Maybe your next email should be "I see you looked at my redesign. Either let's talk about what you think, or else. * dun dun duuuunn * But, like, it's totes cool. I pinky promise I won't sue you if you don't use my redesign." :ROFLMAO:
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LOL, you're insane! I like you...

I sent a friendly email, they replied with a paranoid legal excuse / apology / dismissal / whatever...

I think if I had just added something like - check out one of my TEMPLATES that I feel will work great for your company with "no strings attached" vs the tiny bit of their own company name / brand - or - any of the THEMES I can offer at this - LINK.

When was the last time you heard of a freelancer suing Microsoft or google and winning? NEVER.

Guess what? They don't win against a 5 store grocery chain or a 1 location muffler shop either.
 
modi123 said:
I am over the moon with this determined gumption! (y)

There is a whole mess of difference between a company requesting proposals or company web addresses in signatures, and some dude rocking up with a completely done chunk of work looking for a payday.

Get you that cheddar!
Click to expand...

Insanity does not die quietly... keep goin'!

I've had so many unsolicited emails (different industries) with unsolicited links to suppliers quotes & spec docs as a result of getting on a bidders list.

Do you have single industry tunnel vision?
 
Is it a niche market, or they are simply fine with their current site, or they think it looks fine, or, they do not have the money for a new site.

My first question is are you legit making your sites and templates, or just copying ones from wordpress sites or other pre-made theme sites?

Do you provide hosting for their websites, SSL certs and maintenance?

I think throwing them a "hey, i redid your website as i noticed yours isnt so great" may not work for many.

Before you go making anything, or mocking up their site, you need to just reach out to them.

"Hello,

My name is *joe blow / company* and i am currently a *web designer / full stack blah blah*

Coming across your websites, I noticed it looks as though it could potentially use some updating to help improve its usage and performance as well as capture new customers"


For all you know, they made the website and love it, or someone they know made it and they love it, so you have to tred lightly around how you approach the reasons why you feel their site needs a remake...
 
It's really the mom & pop niche in a large market segment that has traditionally used the free DIY site builders when they signed up @ godaddy, etc. Many only use facebook & will never budge, or like you said, they have some ego connection to the site they "built" or their son-in-law made for them, etc. This whole thing is based on a site I built for a client that was a facebook only guy & it has completely changed his business. Unfortunately, his skill level is facebook on an iPad. Fortunately, the contact form, email responses and workflow documentation I created for him RE: how to update the site himself is driving a lot traffic and new business.

My goal is to provide an easy, affordable upgrade for that type of client, so I've curated specific Wordpress themes that lend themselves to the niche, UVP & are very customizable. UI / UX is pretty settled with a group of layout options, so no need to offer custom sites or drupal ATM.

I'm working out a marketing / sales funnel with price points for my shared hosting or they can use their existing hosting (my preference). SSL is included "free" with most hosting now & for this level site should be sufficient. I might require a scaled maintenance agreement for WP to login monthly and update themes / things / make backups - which will cost me a little time, but I can automate that and also set WP to auto-update the core & plugins. Another maintenance offering might be content creation or uploading their content for them. I might also advertise / require siteguard to avoid any blame game BS if there are issues.

RE: your sample email is more or less all I sent & would certainly never say:

MrGuvernment said:
"hey, i redid your website as i noticed yours isnt so great"
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I guess that could be the knee-jerk reaction from some people though.

My last line was pretty close to yours: I came across your website and thought you might be interested in updating the site to attract new customers. I also said that I recently built a site for a customer in the same business (9 states away) and thought they might like to see an example site with their name on it & gave them a link. I could have sent a screenshot or PDF (hubspot can track opened images / PDF too), but I'm rethinking the marketing funnel now & rather than an intro + an offer & link or screenshot, I should just send an intro & offer to send a link, etc.

mydomain.com/path was totally generic (not their name) & site is set for nofollow / noindex. The only change I made to the theme was an image of the company name (generic ALT text) at the top and did not use their logo or images, I just matched site colors to their logo.

Finally, they didn't flip out with a cease & desist, they were just kinda' "terse" so I thought I could add a simple PS: about no obligation, etc. but that even seems like it doesn't need to be said... Ultimately, this taught me that people may react unreasonably & adding any legalese mumbo-jumbo might cause them to react like an insane person.

I got some good ideas from the feedback & can soften my approach by mentioning that I can send a link or screenshots of specific themes with "no stings attached", etc.

Thanks for the replies!

EDIT: re-read some earlier posts - it seems I didn't make it clear, or someone didn't understand that this was a simple, single test email. I have no intention of contacting that company again & spent very little time on a mock-up, etc. I thought that was pretty obvious, but apparently not, so I wanted to clarify.
 
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usa all day said:
this taught me that people may react unreasonably & adding any legalese mumbo-jumbo might cause them to react like an insane person.
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It tickles the cockles of my heart how anyone who doesn't take you up on your offer, or won't take a second doggedly send email, is put in the "unreasonable" or "insane" category (as well as the preexisting 'probably are IP thieves before'). I can't tell if it is hubris or a locked world view, but you go girl! Keep hoeing that line.

Have you considered a more direct approach? Along the lines of "hey, bubba, I see you already looked at what I have to offer so you should do me the courtesy of talking." and leave with an air of 'implication' if they don't. (y)


always-sunny.gif
 
Apparently you posted while I was writing this EDIT above...

EDIT: re-read some earlier posts - it seems I didn't make it clear, or someone didn't understand that this was a simple, single test email. I have no intention of contacting that company again & spent very little time on a mock-up, etc. I thought that was pretty obvious, but apparently not, so I wanted to clarify.
 
Being in the IT industry, approaching a situation with the client in mind first trying to see where they may see the benfit, can be good. And as with most places, money becomes the first factor "can we afford to have our website redone" not realizing the potential business they are actually losing by not having more traffic.

I think if you work to integrate some level of analytics to the person you are going to talk to, any public ones you can get for current site traffic, would be good, cause then there is a base line to work from. It is hard to guarantee that you can increase site traffic 5000000%! But having some number may help. Also some performance numbers, use some of the free site loading test sites to show them if their site is loading slow. Years back, the numbers I worked with were our main site had to fully load with in 2 seconds, that included main images (Design team hated me cause they wanted to throw up 10MB images cause compression made their work look bad)

Def good to go with their existing hosting, or at least move them to a good reliable host and have them set up the account, own it, pay for it, and then add you as an admin sort of role to manage anything as needed. This offer a re-occuring income for you and helps support them, as they know they can always go to you for help.

Backups - for sure, always have them, some how, that works easily for them of course. I have read too many horror stories of company that hired X company to redo their site, they transfer their full domain over to them, used their webhosting, then one day they simply stopped replying to the people, or demanded more money, or just simply were not doing the work and when asked to give back control, refused to. It keeps liability off of you, think of it that way. Always leave the client with full control over their assets and make that clear to them.

Re-occuring revenue is where it is at, so the services beyond just redoing the site is where you can make real money.

For wordpress, we know it is exploited to hell and back, so I would also push security into it and have https://www.wordfence.com/ for any install done, may be hard to explain to clients the benefits, but even if they are already running a WP site, you could show them stats on how often wordpress sites are compromised....
 
Thinking more, that is even something else you could offer, asking them if they have any analytics for their site? And if not, get them signed up with google analytics and integrate it into their site and show them the info they can learn about how their site is being used.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Thinking more, that is even something else you could offer, asking them if they have any analytics for their site? And if not, get them signed up with google analytics and integrate it into their site and show them the info they can learn about how their site is being used.
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I second this. Lots of small businesses have crappy/incorrectly setup/no analytics. On that note it only takes a little bit of coding ability past that to help a mom & pop shop setup some automated marketing on their website using Klaviyo or something similar.
 
RE: your earlier reply / first paragraph... MrGuvernment

That first one (benefits vs features) is pretty easy to write marketing language for because I am targeting a singular industry - aka - market segment w/ this! I know what most of them need & want & WHY they want it because of my existing / similar clients in different locales.

Cost is always an issue & I might build a few FAKE COMPANY example websites at different "base price" points, like Biz Card + UVP, Blog + UVP, BLOG + GALLERY + UVP and maybe some PREMIUM site - so they have 3-4 KNOWN numbers to start with and also realize that they can upgrade from Biz Card 1 to BLOG 2 then 3 then 4 and I will also offer 3-4 levels of monthly maintenance levels for my own stability money / recurring revenue.

It might have been BS (because I can't find it now) but I read about WENDY's doing a market test for the single, double & triple stack burgers. The sales were like 20% single, 75% double, 5% triple. When they needed more space on the menu board for new chicken offerings they removed the triple stack because it wasn't selling (they'd still make one for you). Sales changed to 75% single, 25% double. This was attributed to "perceived value" of good, better, BEST. When the best was removed, people settled for good because they didn't want to pay the premium upcharge for BEST (the double was BEST without the triple). When the triple / BEST was offered at the highest price, they sold more doubles for the same reasons. IDK if that is true or not, but the psychology seems plausible & you see those same differentiators for a LOT of online services which I assume were gleaned from the old freemium vs basic vs premium models. My theory is that people started buying more chicken vs double stacks - but I am a cynic!

RE: analytics - I made a very cool CASE STUDY doc template & will be flipping that into a web page. I used my primary example client & listed his monthly growth numbers because I did not have any previous baseline analytics for his traffic or conversions.

RE: load speed, mobile friendliness ratings & other metrics like that would be a great addition to my "case study" doc / webpage or example site.

RE: existing / upgrading hosting, ownership, etc.

I did sales & PM at three different companies on 4 platforms. I've heard horror stories from prospects about companies or sole proprietors who just disappeared (along with the clients website) or who claimed complete design / IP / copyright "ownership" of the website and forbid clients from moving the site, etc. There is a tangled "web" of unreasonable & insane people out there.

I have ALWAYS requested that the client purchase & retain the domain & hosting for themselves (and assign me admin - I have a doc for them about adding me & deleting me) and I always recommend that they setup auto-pay & also buy specific features / plugins (like siteguard, ALL-IN-ONE, etc). I also offer a screen-share session to get them squared away because many are not capable w/ out assistance or are paranoid to make me admin, etc.

RE: recurring revenue & more analytics - my first few clients will teach me what the market will bear & what I can offer. There are a lot of WP SEO services that will give you a TON of data but only some reports that Joe Client can understand & will be willing to pay for at this market level - IMO - but yeah - I'll do some anal-analysis along the way looking for ways to help the client at a fair price for an add-on service like the SEO content updates, etc.
 
Toriessian said:
I second this. Lots of small businesses have crappy/incorrectly setup/no analytics. On that note it only takes a little bit of coding ability past that to help a mom & pop shop setup some automated marketing on their website using Klaviyo or something similar.
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Interesting service... I'll look into this...
 
Oh, thanks... honestly, I hate analytics. It is so freaking boring.

If I have trouble sleeping, I open an SEO / analytics youtube video & POOF - I am out like a light.
 
Spam and using trademarks without permission are not a good business model and not a good way to meet new clients.
If I bothered to engage it would be a c&d letter from an attorney demanding you take the pages off the net.
I would then tell everyone I know not to do business with you.
I recommend rethinking your business model.
 
RE: Spam - I worked for 4 companies that used Hubspot CRM & complied w/ CAN-SPAM Act w/ messages approved by their lawyer, blah blah blah & I followed the same pattern.

RE: Trademarks - You might work for a big Trademarked company, but very few mom & pops TM the name of their tiny 1-5 location company.

RE: C&D - Do you really pay your attorney an hour for every email you get that you consider spam?

I realize you're a "stormy1", but sending a single email w/ an opt out option is legal & SOP for many, many, many businesses.

RE: rethinking your business model - I already said that I have done so up above.
 
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