Can we come up with a better way to keep new users out of the FS/FT forum?

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CEpeep

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50 posts is a great starting point, however it just encourages spammers to post 50 posts worth of junk under the radar so they can come to FS/FT and peddle their wares. Most of the time these posts are like "oh yeah I liked that too" or "should of gone AMD" (in the NVidia/Intel forum) and other crap that contributes nothing to the overall quality of the board. Instead of using only post count, can we also require that you have been a member for at least a couple of months to post in FS/FT? I think even 60 days would go a long way toward reducing spam and bad traders.
 
Honestly, we can put any number of filters in place, but nothing will be as remotely effective individual members using good judgment. The length of membership idea isn't necessarily bad, but I don't think it would be as effective as you might imagine. I've personally caught a bunch of trolls who have made multiple sleeper accounts that they just periodically post from over several months time to establish some kind of history.

As to the spam, we see when that happens, and I've personally set a bunch of new members posts back to zero for spamming, and I know the other mods have as well. We may miss a few, but I think we find the vast majority of them.

There's also the fact that the vast majority of n00bies are really just honest folks who stumbled across the forum and think it looks cool. Sellers need buyers and overly draconian policies will be a stumbling block for new buyers to enter the market.
 
Can you set a forum such that restricted members can reply to threads but not create them?
 
The only way to scare off, or prevent fraud is to have a confirm system such as having to have a confirmed address, or confirmed bank account. Though it seems like a lot of work, we'd be amazed by how many users won't sign up and try to scam because of the steps you have to go through to sell on here.

This just gives us more PERSONAL information about the user, and make it more secure and a less chance of them running away there "loot".
 
Yes, there are a lot of personal calls that go into whether or not I'll sell to somebody or accept a particular form of payment. Why not weed out the ones that can't be bothered to stick around for a few months? It's not being asked for [H] to eliminate all fraudulent buyers and sellers on its forum, just to deter a few more from starting.

Requiring an address or bank account to be confirmed with [H] to use the trading section will ensure I no longer use it.

-1 to that.
 
Oldie pretty much covered it....in the end, its up to you guys to make sure your protected.

The majority of the troll threads I see are where the buyer has little or no verifiable information on the seller, or they paid with a gift and gave away what little protection they had.


With all trades,searching the TTT section with their name as the search term will let you know if there were ever any issues and how they were handled.

As far as new traders go,if they have little or no feedback, I will ask that they ship first, if they are not comfortable with that, I move on.

I will also Google their username ,you would be surprised what you can find out with a few simple keystrokes.
 
Thanks for weighing in, mods. Is it considered "thread crapping" to remind others in the thread that the OP selling his i7 for $100 has only 50 posts and registered yesterday?
 
CEpeep said:
Thanks for weighing in, mods. Is it considered "thread crapping" to remind others in the thread that the OP selling his i7 for $100 has only 50 posts and registered yesterday?
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yes it would be..:)
 
OCN (Overclock.net) has the toughest requirements for their FS/T forum I've came across.
The memebr has to accumulate "rep", which is given by members for helping/assisting other with issues, hot deals, great finds, news posts etc. 35 rep points are need to post in the FS/T forum.

It took me over 1000 posts and 4 months to get 35 rep points.
You can get there in a few weeks or months, but it depends on the users "participation" in the forum.

Not saying [H] needs to do anything OCN is doing, but it's a pretty iron clad system of keeping trolls out.
Once a person works for their rep, they are more likely to make an effort to be a trustworthy trader. Trolls will go elsewhere because of the time involved to achieve the required rep points.
 
Crosshairs said:
I will also Google their username ,you would be surprised what you can find out with a few simple keystrokes.
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I think this is a great suggestion. I use my username literally everywhere. I don't think my identity could remain hidden for very long just because this tag is so integrated into my life (started with 5 years on Rogue Spear actually, lol). Just google DMFD-Minister or DMFDMinister and you'll come up with tons of stuff outside this forum.

Ultimately, if the other person seems flaky and the deal is too good to be true...listen to your gut and move on. It's not worth it.
 
CEpeep: This is a for sale forum, NOT ebay.....You want to have zero risk, go to eBay....You want a better deal, you have to be smart & cover your butt in any transaction, period. Why do you think the deals here are much better than eBay,,,,no fees to post which would be if you expect the mods to be a security team who verifies identity & banking info, etc. It's like a yard sale. Buyer beware & use PayPal invoicing if you want buyer protection....Anyone who stands behind their sales will NOT object to a PayPal invoice for goods.

I had a couple of sellers refuse PayPal invoices & tried money requests & gift payments. I told them to peddle their junk somewhere else. No invoice for goods, no sale. My heat is 100% which guarantees I'm a man of my word & an honest buyer, period.
 
Yeah, I agree identity verification is nice but exactly how much would you be willing to pay to have that here? Things have been working remarkably well here for over a decade now with a system that has barely changed since it was started.

I mean just look at the number of troll threads started in the last month, compared to the thousands of trades/sales during that same period of time. I doubt you would get numbers that are much better even with some insane verification system.
 
WorldExclusive said:
OCN (Overclock.net) has the toughest requirements for their FS/T forum I've came across.
The memebr has to accumulate "rep", which is given by members for helping/assisting other with issues, hot deals, great finds, news posts etc. 35 rep points are need to post in the FS/T forum.

It took me over 1000 posts and 4 months to get 35 rep points.
You can get there in a few weeks or months, but it depends on the users "participation" in the forum.

Not saying [H] needs to do anything OCN is doing, but it's a pretty iron clad system of keeping trolls out.
Once a person works for their rep, they are more likely to make an effort to be a trustworthy trader. Trolls will go elsewhere because of the time involved to achieve the required rep points.
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And even with OCN's tough policy it's where I got beat the 1st time by a long time member who had an impeccable looking facade, at least 50 deals under his belt all positive.
I never even batted an eye when he wanted me to ship 1st on trade, being I was fairly new there, lost about 50.00 and learned a lot.
 
I do see and agree with the mods points in the matter. However, I think it is still a good idea to have a post restriction before even being able to view or post in the FS/T forum. I would love to see that feature here. Other forums have that feature and I think it is nice. Without 50 posts, you cant even view the FS/T forum. That would be awesome.

At the very least, it would weed out some potential trolls.

As they also noted, you should never send money to or ship first to someone new and/or has no heatware. Just dont do it. No heat, they get to take all the risk. If they are unwilling to do so, dont trade with them.
 
Retsam said:
As they also noted, you should never send money to or ship first to someone new and/or has no heatware. Just dont do it. No heat, they get to take all the risk. If they are unwilling to do so, dont trade with them.
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This is a good practice. I've followed this rule since I've begun buying/selling/trading online, and I've yet to be scammed.
 
playah said:
And even with OCN's tough policy it's where I got beat the 1st time by a long time member who had an impeccable looking facade, at least 50 deals under his belt all positive.
I never even batted an eye when he wanted me to ship 1st on trade, being I was fairly new there, lost about 50.00 and learned a lot.
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Did they just take your money outright or the trade went bad? Yes there's a difference.

Getting beat is different from making it harder for trolls to post in the FS forum, which this topic is about.
Even with a 100+ heatware user, he/she can decide to use us as their ATM. Nothing is too hard for a determined troll, but making the process tedious as possible will weed out the ones looking for a quick ATM withdrawal.
 
As someone who recently joined [H] in large part due to the FS/T forum, please don't make the rules any stricter.

The one suggestion i'd make is to allow newbs to post replies in the FS forum. There were a few times id want to bump a thread out of courtesy and obviously wasnt able.
 
CEpeep said:
50 posts is a great starting point, however it just encourages spammers to post 50 posts worth of junk under the radar so they can come to FS/FT and peddle their wares. Most of the time these posts are like "oh yeah I liked that too" or "should of gone AMD" (in the NVidia/Intel forum) and other crap that contributes nothing to the overall quality of the board. Instead of using only post count, can we also require that you have been a member for at least a couple of months to post in FS/FT? I think even 60 days would go a long way toward reducing spam and bad traders.
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Try TPU or Overclockers, I'm sure you'll fit right at home between those nut jobs. They have similar requirements.
 
Oldie said:
I mean just look at the number of troll threads started in the last month, compared to the thousands of trades/sales during that same period of time. I doubt you would get numbers that are much better even with some insane verification system.
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^ this sums it all up in one shot. Trade smart and you will reduce the chances of being trolled to very little.
 
PaperclipGod said:
As someone who recently joined [H] in large part due to the FS/T forum, please don't make the rules any stricter.

The one suggestion i'd make is to allow newbs to post replies in the FS forum. There were a few times id want to bump a thread out of courtesy and obviously wasnt able.
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As a noob on this site, I agree with PaperclipGod. I understand you don't want people to spam their wares, and do illigitimate dealings on here. I have stuff I would love to sell on here, and would be a good seller, but cannot even post a reply on the FS/FT thread. I am working my way to 50 posts, with what I hope are good, positive responses, but don't just crush out good folks with even more strict rules.

I have read through several of the Tricks and Trolls, and it seems even some legit sellers on here have gone to the "dark side" and took folks money. Although rare, it is prudent for both the seller and the buyer to be careful in a transaction, and use good judgement as much as possible.


Ian
 
playah said:
And even with OCN's tough policy it's where I got beat the 1st time by a long time member who had an impeccable looking facade, at least 50 deals under his belt all positive.
I never even batted an eye when he wanted me to ship 1st on trade, being I was fairly new there, lost about 50.00 and learned a lot.
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Yup, I've been trading here for three years. My heatware account is almost four years old now. I'm dealing with my first troll on OCN right now, I've been a member for far less than a year. I really hope that Heatware overturns that retaliation feedback that he left me.
 
OC-Chronic said:
CEpeep: This is a for sale forum, NOT ebay.....You want to have zero risk, go to eBay....You want a better deal, you have to be smart & cover your butt in any transaction, period. Why do you think the deals here are much better than eBay,,,,no fees to post which would be if you expect the mods to be a security team who verifies identity & banking info, etc. It's like a yard sale. Buyer beware & use PayPal invoicing if you want buyer protection....Anyone who stands behind their sales will NOT object to a PayPal invoice for goods.

I had a couple of sellers refuse PayPal invoices & tried money requests & gift payments. I told them to peddle their junk somewhere else. No invoice for goods, no sale. My heat is 100% which guarantees I'm a man of my word & an honest buyer, period.
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Well said.

If you change the rules and become more draconian as another has stated, valid users like myself will just say frack it and go somewhere else. Then you risk making your user base smaller and having less stuff to buy/sell.
 
[strike=]FYI guys the posting limit has been increased to 100. They haven't changed the dialogue but one of the mods confirmed it either here in TTT or in forum feedback.[/s] This information is outdated, the minimum posting limit is in fact 50.

Thanks for the info about OCN's verification system. That's an airtight way to make sure trolls don't get in, but I think it's also important to consider, in an absolute sense, how big is the problem in the first place? I've been seeing more posts get deleted for "spamming to 50" recently, but if the mods think that the current system is catching most of the trolls, I think it's good enough. Because, by increasing the verification requirements, you also scare away some legitimate people who won't want to go to the trouble to sell their stuff.

The above point reminds me of the voter fraud prevention laws that we're putting in place in government. The average person has a 39x higher chance of being killed by lightning than he does of committing voter fraud, and less than 5 out of every 10,000 people actually commit voter fraud, but we're making it harder for 100,000s of people by requiring a driver's license. At some point, it becomes penny-wise, pound-foolish. You have to look at the big picture. BTW please don't reply about the political part of this post, PM me about it, I don't want to derail the thread. I just thought there was a funny similarity.
 
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If the posting limit has been increased to 100, then someone needs to edit the sticky that still indicates 50.
 
XacTactX it's still just 50, I just tested it myself.
 
I hope it doesn't increase to 100. The main reason I joined [H] instead of just lurking forever is for the FS/FT section, and seeing "100 posts required" likely would've just made me look at another similar forum instead.

It will definitely increase the amount of useless spam posts going on, too :p
 
txsizzler said:
...I have stuff I would love to sell on here, and would be a good seller, but cannot even post a reply on the FS/FT thread. I am working my way to 50 posts, with what I hope are good, positive responses, but don't just crush out good folks with even more strict rules.
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I think one important thing to remember here is that FS/FT is a courtesy that was added to the [H]ard|Forum for the benefit of the members. Ultimately though, this forum is not here to be yet another hardware market place, but rather to foster a healthy computing community. For that reason, I have no issues with minimum post counts, or even minimum term lengths before acquiring access to the FS/FT.

To me, this applies not only to newbs, but also to long-term members. I have seen more than a few sellers in FS/FT, that have been members for 5 years or more, and yet are still "noobie" or "limp-gawd" ranks.

I have wondered to myself many times, how many members would just leave [H] if the FS/FT was closed. ;)
 
I have bought several things from [H] members from the FS/FT thread. It might be nice to allow those trades to be documented so that after a certain amount of purchase deals we can offer stuff back the community when we are done. I can't post in the FS/FT thanking someone for sale publicly or post that I sent a PM to purchase.

I believe I have purchased over 15 video cards, several power supplies, and some 2600ks from here along with a couple server motherboards. No issues with any of the transactions, and when I got rid of some of the items I just fleabayed them when I would have liked to give back to [H].
 
My worst transaction was actually my most recent one. Bought a 6950 from a 5.9 year member and it took 3 weeks to get to me. I have had some very successful trades and purchases from <1 year members, just have to be smart and research them a little. If all this posts are "I like this too" then find someone else.
 
@ Buckwheet.... that's exactly what I meant.

You've only been a member for 3 months (not nearly as bad as 5+ years, lol), and have managed to purchase what I estimate from your description to be about 2 dozen items... but in those 3 months you couldn't take the time to leave a measly 50 comments in other contributory topics? Instead you whine that you can't leave any messages in FS/FT. :rolleyes:

Of all the topic groups in [H]ard|Forum, there has to be at least one conversation where you could contribute some meaningful comments, and establish that you are actually here for something more than a free alternative to ebay.
 
wjogert said:
Of all the topic groups in [H]ard|Forum, there has to be at least one conversation where you could contribute some meaningful comments, and establish that you are actually here for something more than a free alternative to ebay.
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Isn't the goal of the 50-post-minimum to try and filter out the blatant scammers? You're making it out like the FS/T forum is a reward for posting just for the sake of posting... which is the kind of attitude that seems to get a lot of new members banned.

It seems to me that the whole community benefits from more FS/T members, regardless of how active they are in the rest of the forums.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
Yup, I've been trading here for three years. My heatware account is almost four years old now. I'm dealing with my first troll on OCN right now, I've been a member for far less than a year. I really hope that Heatware overturns that retaliation feedback that he left me.
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I had the same problem with a retaliation eval on Heat. I was given a good eval and then the guy left another eval as negative.
 
wjogert said:
@ Buckwheet.... that's exactly what I meant.

You've only been a member for 3 months (not nearly as bad as 5+ years, lol), and have managed to purchase what I estimate from your description to be about 2 dozen items... but in those 3 months you couldn't take the time to leave a measly 50 comments in other contributory topics? Instead you whine that you can't leave any messages in FS/FT. :rolleyes:

Of all the topic groups in [H]ard|Forum, there has to be at least one conversation where you could contribute some meaningful comments, and establish that you are actually here for something more than a free alternative to ebay.
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I came here as a F@H person and because of my affiliation with OCN, there has not been as much of a warm welcome as I would have liked. Not to mention that 99% of the stuff I talk with [H] members about is inside the IRC channel and has to deal with F@H. I have lots and lots of private messages to [H] members regarding F@H and it also doesn't help that many [H] members post their information on OCN or the F@H forum.

So there is no reason to double/tripple/quadruple the number of posts or areas I have to ask questions. I post when I have something to contribute, but 99% of my activity is dedicated to the F@H/Bitcoin topics. So I like to help [H] members out and buy their used equipment. I have no problem directing my ~$1000 monthly spend in distributed computing away from [H] members if you would rather have me post just "nice post", or "thanks" in all the distributed computing topics.

Oh, and I am not whining. I am saying it would just be nice if there was another way to verify me, and allow me to offer items I purchase from [H] members back to [H] members. I am not talking about opening up an entire shop.

Edit: I have sold stuff using the DC FS thread, and I guess I will just continue to do so and if other members don't check that section oh well.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1663092
 
We appreciate the feedback guys but at the end of the day I personally think that overly draconian ways of keeping trolls out aren't very effective and drive away a ton of otherwise good traders. I've personally done deals with people who had zero history here and zero feedback and had no problem at all. I've also seen people ripped off here by members who were very well established.

The bottom line is that the best trader protection is the diligence of the trader himself. From what I can see bad deals make up an incredibly small percentage of all trades here, so while it's not ultimately my decision, I don't see the need to make any changes.
 
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