Best Sound setup for Headphones

AthlonXP

AthlonXP

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 14, 2001
Messages
20,588
I want to keep using my current headphones/mic setup (Sennheiser PC360) and wanted to know which sound card/DAC should I look to get? Want good overall gaming sound and audio.
 
Any newer realtek sound chip found in any decent mobo will suffice, unless you hear the static noise from your pc components.

If you want perceivable audio improvements you should spend your money on better headphones.

I would recommend getting hd650's, these are incredible cans, with a bit of warmth to the sound but detailed as well. Just attach your mic to them somehow.

However, for gaming you might as well consider something with larger soundstage, for example akg q701.


And don't listen to the audiophiles that might lurk here, DAC's and solid state amps are no different in sound quality (not sure about the tube amps, never tried one), all the quality differences they hear are just mismatched volume levels and placebo. My o2/odac combo was a complete waste of money. I wish I had gotten the LCD2's with the money I could save on the dac/amp.
 
Last edited:
How was the o2 amp dac combo a waste of money? It is essential an external sound card. You need both good headphones and the amp dac combo to get good quality sound. There is no on board audio solution that can correctly power the lcd2 which are difficult run anyways
 
Onboard is sometimes sufficient and sometimes not. I've had motherboards with clean onboard sound and decent enough op amps to run most headphones. I've had motherboards with so much noise in the onboard sound that I wouldn't use it even with speakers. (I say "even with speakers" because speakers have lower sensitivity than headphones that can help mask some of the noise in your electronics.)

Generally if you can't hear problems from onboard and it gets loud enough for you, you should spend your money on things other than sound cards/DACs/amps. But if you hear bad issues like poor SNR, or it just doesn't get loud enough for you without distorting, then you should look into the electronics.
 
Last edited:
123Lanoix said:
How was the o2 amp dac combo a waste of money?
Click to expand...

Because it sounded exactly the same as my asus maximus 4 mobo and the acer laptop with my 650's?

Not sure about the LCD2's but for 650's a realtek chip that has no issues with noise from the other components is more than enough. :D
 
So how much better is the Soundblaster ZXR over the Sound Blaster Recon3D Fatality Pro edition? I picked up the ZXR and seems better but has an issue where it stops working when coming out of sleep mode.
 
Pechendko said:
And don't listen to the audiophiles that might lurk here, DAC's and solid state amps are no different in sound quality (not sure about the tube amps, never tried one), all the quality differences they hear are just mismatched volume levels and placebo. My o2/odac combo was a complete waste of money. I wish I had gotten the LCD2's with the money I could save on the dac/amp.
Click to expand...

Tubes introduce distortion - from what I have observed, in general, most people like the distortion largely because they like what it does to the mid-range, some others don't.

And most headphones and earphones out on the market do not need amplification largely because there's sufficient power from that headphone output to drive them.

Some headphones are preferable with an amp, subjectively due to personal preference (as some claim), objectively due to power/decibel level recommendations by the headphone manufacturer. I do agree that the differences between different DACs and solid-state amps are very small and you shouldn't be paying obscene sums for them.

Somewhat puzzled about the o2/odac comment, the LCD2 cost around USD900 - 1k new - unless the o2/odac you got was around that price or if used LCD2 are going around for much less...
 
Last edited:
Hey I know that they introduce a flavor to the sound. This ain ' t my first rodeo. I find digital to be a bit harsh at times. Tubes soften things up a bit. I had a pair of akg 340s modded by larry at headphile powered by a quest for sound tube amp using j.and j tubes that robert plant and allison kraus used to listen to their tracks while recording an album together. They said it sounded natural. It is all a matter of preference. The amp was an sq 84 i believe.
 
It seems why you want to get a new sound card is never really addressed...are you having problems with the headset using the onboard sound? If so what issues are you having?


You could certainly buy more expensive sound card if you want, a Asus Xonar DG/ DGX would probably be more than sufficient ...it is a nice cheap card (i used a DG for awhile..it is now in my wife's computer) it has a onboard headphone amp..

If you plan on using that senn headset i think the DG/DGX would be more than sufficient for that caliber of headset.
 
Schiit combo...depends how much you want to spend. On the lower end there's the Magni/Modi DAC/AMP combo, on the higher end a Bifrost/Asgard combo would be very nice, not sure how well that set of sennheisers could take advantage of a higher end amp/dac combo though.
 
The 02 amp and dac goes for about $275.00
It's the best for the price and it can power 99% of all head phones. The sound quality rivals hi end dacs and amps that are thousand dollars.
 
123Lanoix said:
The 02 amp and dac goes for about $275.00
It's the best for the price and it can power 99% of all head phones. The sound quality rivals hi end dacs and amps that are thousand dollars.
Click to expand...

But then again, you can also rival that sound quality with $50 :)

It's easy to use the word rival when they're all gonna sound the same!
 
123Lanoix said:
The 02 amp and dac goes for about $275.00
It's the best for the price and it can power 99% of all head phones. The sound quality rivals hi end dacs and amps that are thousand dollars.
Click to expand...

And in turn the sound quality of my laptop onboard realtek rivals that of my o2/odac :D
 
The Amp on most sound cards cannot power alot of the higher ohm head phones correctly. Look at the specs and compare
 
123Lanoix said:
The Amp on most sound cards cannot power alot of the higher ohm head phones correctly. Look at the specs and compare
Click to expand...

Most sound cards can power most headphones (including very high-end ones) just fine unless you're looking for tons of volume.
 
123Lanoix said:
The Amp on most sound cards cannot power alot of the higher ohm head phones correctly. Look at the specs and compare
Click to expand...

For example? For now we know exactly that hd650's can be powered by just about anything including some laptops, of course if the audiochip implementation is decent, without noise.
 
123Lanoix said:
The Amp on most sound cards cannot power alot of the higher ohm head phones correctly. Look at the specs and compare
Click to expand...

For example? For now we know exactly that hd650's can be powered by just about anything that has resonable headphone out including some laptops, of course if the audiochip implementation is decent, without noise.
 
It is a pointless circular argument but just saying I have used various dacs and headphone amps, various speaker amps / headphone jacks etc. And there are differences in sound quality, they do not all sound exactly the same, just saying that because the information above is not necessarily correct, but yes headphones make the biggest difference. A good sound card like Xonar STX is good value though and will work with most headphones except high end ones that you will probably never buy anyway.
 
Last edited:
I have owned the stx and moved to an external amp dac setup and there is a noticeable difference. The problem with sound cards and the stx is the high output impedance they have. The stx is rated at 10ohms vs the O2 amp which is 2 ohms for example.
 
Pechendko said:
For example? For now we know exactly that hd650's can be powered by just about anything that has resonable headphone out including some laptops, of course if the audiochip implementation is decent, without noise.
Click to expand...

650s are kind of an interesting/unique beast; They will sound great on a cheaper amp/dac; but they scale further with better amplification better than any headphone I've tried I think. (MS1s, DT770s, M50s, a number of others). I will say I wasn't happy with the sound out of them from an E07k/E17 combo, just lacked... Depth. O2/ODAC brought them to life though; wonderful.

My favorite sound from them so far has come from a Schiit Valhalla though... Accentuates the warmth.
 
The "all amps and dacs sound the same" opinion usually comes from people who have not actually used a variety of different dacs / amps / headphones and heard the differences, or are not interested enough in audio to spend the money... so that is convenient way to think about it if you do not want to buy more expensive equipment. I used to think all dacs were a rip off but a good dac does improve sound quality if you have good headphones and other equipment. Better dacs and amps give better sound quality... they don't all sound the same, Its not as simple as "it is all digital 1 and 0 so it works or it doesn't" or "an amplifier amplifies the sound so they all sound the same"
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
Cambridge DAC Magic 100.
Click to expand...

What made you pic that over NAD, Audioengine and the billion other options? I'm not criticizing your purchase, but I am curious since it is very hard to find reviews from people who have tested many options as well as make a definitive recommendation.

Not sure why devices like these have 2 coaxial inputs and only 1 toslink/optical...not multi-console owner friendly.

---------------

@ the OP. I had a pair of PC 360's for two weeks paired with both an SBZ and Denon 1713 receiver, both of which are wasted on such an overpriced, bass-less pair of headphones. The PC 360's are like the Razer Krakens (extremely bassy) reverse-twin, but cost >3x more. The SBZ is the only product worth buying due to the low price.

I use AKG K712's with my receiver (it doesn't add any lag; tested with the Leo Bodnar device) and have a Stax SRM-1/MK2 headphone+amp combo (it was free).
 
Last edited:
NCX said:
What made you pic that over NAD, Audioengine and the billion other options? I'm not criticizing your purchase, but I am curious since it is very hard to find reviews from people who have tested many options as well as make a definitive recommendation.

Not sure why devices like these have 2 coaxial inputs and only 1 toslink/optical...not multi-console owner friendly.

---------------

@ the OP. I had a pair of PC 360's for two weeks paired with both an SBZ and Denon 1713 receiver, both of which are wasted on such an overpriced, bass-less pair of headphones. The PC 360's are like the Razer Krakens (extremely bassy) reverse-twin, but cost >3x more. The SBZ is the only product worth buying due to the low price.

I use AKG K712's with my receiver (it doesn't add any lag; tested with the Leo Bodnar device) and have a Stax SRM-1/MK2 headphone+amp combo (it was free).
Click to expand...

I literally just picked a random DAC.

And I can't tell the damn difference.
 
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
I literally just picked a random DAC.

And I can't tell the damn difference.
Click to expand...

In a recent hifi magazine test they tested 6 different DACs ranging from 120 euros to 2500 euros price. They found minimal differences. Certainly not enough to warrant the price tag.

They also tested a late model Macbook pro with its built in headphone output. After blind testing they basically stated that all you get from buying a separate DAC is a lighter pocket (at least if you happen to own a late MBP).
 
So I spent about a couplehours playing with the two DACs I linked earlier...The Cambridge Azur is probably going back. Audio wise I can not tell a difference at all. None.

Foobar > DAC > Woo Audio WA6 > HD800's for anyone who cares.

Gaming there is flawless loading in games with the Azur and the Creative MB3 software. With the SMSL there are pretty large loads, and alt tabbing while in games there are huge freezes when going back into game.

I've always been a sound card guy. Especially with gaming. But after using these two DAC's and the Creative MB3 software, I may go the DAC route from here on out.
 
Try the NAD D1050, it is such a nice dac... It does make a big difference to the sound quality, makes sibilance a lot less noticeable and no digital type sound from it, dacmagic sounds harsh to me and its ok but I sold it and the D1050 is much better, the Arcam dac is quite good but the bass is terrible on it and I don't think it is worth the money... Anyway my point is that if you have good headphones external dac DOES sound different and better than a Xonar STX for example.. Although for the money the STX is a really good card but as its inside your PC it will pick up interference... Eg using the Xonar STX the coil whine from my 970 comes through the speakers...
 
Don't bother trying that NAD. No matter what you try, when you find that there are no differences, he's going to blame it on you or tell you to buy another thing instead. It's on him to prove the difference. You can tell when people really have no idea what they're talking about when they not only pretend that there is a difference but also that the difference is very significant. He didn't use the phrase "night and day difference" so he is far from the worst offender, but most golden ears use that phrase.

I've owned NAD receivers, the T761 and T753. Never in my life have I heard a headphone output with as much hiss as those things. I'm sure the purpose-oriented products from them will be better in that regard, but you're still not going to hear a difference otherwise. Both receivers had a lot of hiss on the regular speaker outputs. I got more hiss out of those receivers on my ~85dB 1W/1m speakers than I have out of any headphone setup I've had. Again, this is probably not the case for their headphone-specific stuff, or at least I hope not. That stuff is probably just fine. But it won't be an improvement. I also hear that newer receivers than the T7x3 series improve on this.

That said, they were both pretty nice receivers otherwise. The hiss wasn't too bad with speakers at least.
 
Last edited:
Pechendko said:
Any newer realtek sound chip found in any decent mobo will suffice, unless you hear the static noise from your pc components.

If you want perceivable audio improvements you should spend your money on better headphones.

I would recommend getting hd650's, these are incredible cans, with a bit of warmth to the sound but detailed as well. Just attach your mic to them somehow.

However, for gaming you might as well consider something with larger soundstage, for example akg q701.


And don't listen to the audiophiles that might lurk here, DAC's and solid state amps are no different in sound quality (not sure about the tube amps, never tried one), all the quality differences they hear are just mismatched volume levels and placebo. My o2/odac combo was a complete waste of money. I wish I had gotten the LCD2's with the money I could save on the dac/amp.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this. Sound cards, external DACs, and solid state amps are a waste of money in most cases, unless you're picking up EMI or your speakers or headphones aren't getting loud enough. If you're running a modern enthusiast desktop board with something like the Realtek ALC1150, they will not sound any better than your onboard. A tube amp might be worthwhile, but only if you like the way tube amps sound. They introduce distortion, but it's distortion that many people find pleasing. If you want better sound quality, get better headphones or speakers. It's really as simple as that. The soundcard and DAC industry is mostly a lot of snake oil salesmanship to get people to pay far too much for something they probably don't need.
 
I always liked buying used high end dacs on audiogon for cheap. Had a PS audio dac that had been modded a bit and that sucker was clear as new glass. Just no background noise or hiss ever.
 
Cmdrmonkey said:
I have to agree with this. Sound cards, external DACs, and solid state amps are a waste of money in most cases, unless you're picking up EMI or your speakers or headphones aren't getting loud enough. If you're running a modern enthusiast desktop board with something like the Realtek ALC1150, they will not sound any better than your onboard. A tube amp might be worthwhile, but only if you like the way tube amps sound. They introduce distortion, but it's distortion that many people find pleasing. If you want better sound quality, get better headphones or speakers. It's really as simple as that. The soundcard and DAC industry is mostly a lot of snake oil salesmanship to get people to pay far too much for something they probably don't need.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. In your opinion they are a waste of money. Honestly, for most people, I would also agree that it is a waste of money. What comes in most computers is more or less "good enough". Most audiophiles go overboard with the emphasis on "quality" and difference in sound they are getting...but at the end of the day there are some pretty nice benefits to DACs/Amps....and soundcards to some extent.

In my particular case, the sound hasn't really change dramatically (since I haven't changed headphones yet), but the quality has improved. I went from onboard to a Fiio E7 about 3 years ago. I recently went from the E7 to Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC + Magni 2 Uber Amp. In each case there were noticable differences if you knew what you were looking for. Onboard sound to E7 was a definitely improvement in sound quality and reduction of noise/hiss/static. Going form the E7 to the Schiit gear, was again, a pretty big difference. I can now get "true" silence in my headphones which is pretty neat especially when listening to quieter or more ambient music, or music with silences and pauses.

For me, I felt that was a worthwhile investment. I listen to music a lot, and I do appreciate clean, hiss-free and clear reproduction of the sound. For some, spending even more money on it would be worthwhile (though personally I don't see the point). It all comes down to the tolerances of the buyer and what they are looking for.

So yea, I disagree with your statement at face value, but I agree that at some level, it really isn't worth it to spend a lot of money on Amps/DACs/Soundcards unless you really really really care about big improvments in some small areas of your audio since 99% of the time, that onboard sound card will be good enough.
 
I think tap water vs bottled water is a good comparison. The US has some of the cleanest tap water on the planet and you already pay for it through your taxes. People buy expensive bottled water and think it tastes better, but it's mostly placebo, and that Placebo effect correlates directly with how expensive the water is. In fact tap water is often cleaner than bottled water. On Penn and Teller Bullshit, they gave people tap water from a garden hose, but made them think it was expensive imported water and served it in an upscale restaurant. People thought it tasted significantly better than tap water.

You're already paying for a good DAC/Amp when you buy your enthusiast level motherboard that's going to sound just as good as a sound card or external DAC. The sound cards and DACs might have fancy marketing or look cool, but they won't sound any better. It's all placebo. You may as well just use what you already paid for when you bought your motherboard.

The only reason to buy a soundcard or DAC/Amp is if you are picking up EMI or something isn't getting loud enough. That's it. And even then, don't overspend because they all sound pretty much the same. As far as the guy above me, it sounds like the Fiio DAC/Amp was probably a necessary purchase, but you are describing the Schiit stack mostly in terms of how it made you feel, which is typical of someone describing placebo effect.

And actually just returning your motherboard and getting something else if the onboard sound is picking up EMI is probably a wiser and cheaper course of action.
 
Last edited:
It is NOT a placebo. There certainly is a point of diminishing returns on the cost though. I could not really hear a difference bw a solid state $200 dac and a $2000 one.

However, external dacs offer a lower noise floor and sound cleaner with more detail. Even if you don't hear a hiss, a good external dac can be an improvement on the best sound card.

Tube dacs allow you to really color the sound signature to taste. So you can certainly warm or soften the sound up with tubes. I loved my SQ-84 with J and J tubes. Same as used in Marshall guitar amps. Great flavor for rock.

None of this is worth doing unless the rest of your system is decent. Things scale up. There isn't a magic dac that will make your razer headset sound like hd800s.
 
Cmdrmonkey said:
I think tap water vs bottled water is a good comparison. The US has some of the cleanest tap water on the planet and you already pay for it through your taxes. People buy expensive bottled water and think it tastes better, but it's mostly placebo, and that Placebo effect correlates directly with how expensive the water is. In fact tap water is often cleaner than bottled water. On Penn and Teller Bullshit, they gave people tap water from a garden hose, but made them think it was expensive imported water and served it in an upscale restaurant. People thought it tasted significantly better than tap water.

You're already paying for a good DAC/Amp when you buy your enthusiast level motherboard that's going to sound just as good as a sound card or external DAC. The sound cards and DACs might have fancy marketing or look cool, but they won't sound any better. It's all placebo. You may as well just use what you already paid for when you bought your motherboard.

The only reason to buy a soundcard or DAC/Amp is if you are picking up EMI or something isn't getting loud enough. That's it. And even then, don't overspend because they all sound pretty much the same. As far as the guy above me, it sounds like the Fiio DAC/Amp was probably a necessary purchase, but you are describing the Schiit stack mostly in terms of how it made you feel, which is typical of someone describing placebo effect.

And actually just returning your motherboard and getting something else if the onboard sound is picking up EMI is probably a wiser and cheaper course of action.
Click to expand...

Tried my MB audio vs the Cambridge DAC. There is a difference no doubt. Not just interference being gone. The sound is definately tighter/sharper on the DAC.

As I go from the HD800's to the MMX300's and the HDR 180's I can't tell the difference from the DAC to MB.

EDIT my MB:

http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-P67-Ex...sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335836807&sr=8-1-spell
 
Last edited:
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Cmdrmonkey said:
The only reason to buy a soundcard or DAC/Amp is if you are picking up EMI or something isn't getting loud enough. That's it. And even then, don't overspend because they all sound pretty much the same. As far as the guy above me, it sounds like the Fiio DAC/Amp was probably a necessary purchase, but you are describing the Schiit stack mostly in terms of how it made you feel, which is typical of someone describing placebo effect.

And actually just returning your motherboard and getting something else if the onboard sound is picking up EMI is probably a wiser and cheaper course of action.
Click to expand...

Definitely not a placebo effect. Did a blind A/B test with both setups (same headphones). Was able to pick out the correct stack 9 out of 10 times (one of the sound files had a minor hiss in it due to poor quality, go figure). So during that test I actually had to stop and ask my buddy "Really?"

You'll get better isolation in nearly all cases with an offboard, and out of case DAC/AMP combo just by virtue of being away from the EMI in your case (in which case the e7 is MOOOOORE than enough.)

Now that being said, my buddy performed the exact same test after I did. He was only correct 6 out of 10 times. Accuracy improved towards the end of the test though.
 
dandragonrage said:
Don't bother trying that NAD. No matter what you try, when you find that there are no differences, he's going to blame it on you or tell you to buy another thing instead. It's on him to prove the difference. You can tell when people really have no idea what they're talking about when they not only pretend that there is a difference but also that the difference is very significant. He didn't use the phrase "night and day difference" so he is far from the worst offender, but most golden ears use that phrase.

I've owned NAD receivers, the T761 and T753. Never in my life have I heard a headphone output with as much hiss as those things. I'm sure the purpose-oriented products from them will be better in that regard, but you're still not going to hear a difference otherwise. Both receivers had a lot of hiss on the regular speaker outputs. I got more hiss out of those receivers on my ~85dB 1W/1m speakers than I have out of any headphone setup I've had. Again, this is probably not the case for their headphone-specific stuff, or at least I hope not. That stuff is probably just fine. But it won't be an improvement. I also hear that newer receivers than the T7x3 series improve on this.

That said, they were both pretty nice receivers otherwise. The hiss wasn't too bad with speakers at least.
Click to expand...

Receivers are not good for headphone jacks... I have owned 3 NAD (stereo) amps and they all have good headphone jacks if you use high impedance headphones. For low impedance not so good.
 
Its really tedious the everything sounds the same argument tbh... either you cannot hear properly or you have not actually used various dacs / amps... They don't sound exactly the same... I could list all the characteristics of all the dacs I have used then look online and see people saying exactly the same thing... Maybe everyone is having the same placebo effect???? ... anyway biggest difference is the headphones so spend most of your money on that and try a dac later...
 
Nicholars said:
Its really tedious the everything sounds the same argument tbh... either you cannot hear properly or you have not actually used various dacs / amps... They don't sound exactly the same... I could list all the characteristics of all the dacs I have used then look online and see people saying exactly the same thing... Maybe everyone is having the same placebo effect???? ... anyway biggest difference is the headphones so spend most of your money on that and try a dac later...
Click to expand...

It's really tedious that people argue that DACs sound different tbh... either you're biased that they do or you don't understand how digital anything works. You could list all those characteristics that are subjective and meaningless in real world usage. :p

This isn't the 80's at the advent of CD's, DAC's back then sounded different because they hadn't perfected it yet. You'd be hard pressed to find a modern DAC that isn't passable these days. DAC's have gained the status of exotic cables as a way to part fools from their money. With DAC's you're just paying for more or different options, not SQ.

So why is everyone having the same placebo effect? Expectation bias, you believe they make a difference so your brain creates it or now you're just paying attention to something that was always there but now you just noticed it. Also on another different example and somewhat similar subject. Why do people see that silly dress as white and gold when it's really blue and black? Even on the same display different people see it differently. It's perception. To bring it back to the topic to a degree if you believe DAC's and other digital things make a difference then swapping HDMI cables or sources would swap that dress between the colors but it doesn't. It's all in your head. Your eyes and ears are not measurement devices and the thing they're attached to, your brain distorts it by it's own expectations, subjectivity, and cognitive dissonance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top