6850(BARTS pro) performance &price information

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Well in reviews their latest greatest card will be slower than 4 or more other cards that are on the marker already. That will look both sad and pathetic to many people.

I think they will lose a lot of credibility in order to maintain some sort of marketing stance.

Not really. Its the GTX 460's price segment the Barts are rumored to be fighting in. People know already about Cayman and that this is the new highend. What will be sad and pathetic, is if the GTX460 will still stay in that price segment after launch of Barts (provided that Barts have a performance of around 5870).

Naming Cayman 69XX just brings it up into the highend numbering. Traditionally, AMD have only used 69xx for 5000 dual card, but its reasonable that both their highend dual and highend single uses 69XX.

 

[mafa]

If the 6870 ends up being slower than a 5870, AMD will get burned to the ground by just about everyone.

I just can't see them doing something that crazy stupid.

Maybe these rumors have the model numbers mixed up or something.

Yeah that is extremely stupid if they do that.

 

[needmorecarnitine]

That will look both sad and pathetic to many people.

Only to the dummies

A smart shopper will consider the performance and how much it costs.

 

[Cat1yst]

^^ this.

If its between a 5850 and a 5870 for about 200$. I highly doubt anyone that isnt a fanboy, or someone that has a brain would say its a waste.

 

[PRIME1]

It looks to me like they are abandoning the high end gaming market. Their "high end" card will merely be a mid-range offering.

I think they are going to end up like S3 or PowerVR.

 

[Snowdog]

^^ this.

If its between a 5850 and a 5870 for about 200$. I highly doubt anyone that isnt a fanboy, or someone that has a brain would say its a waste.

My prediction is:

6850 performs under 5850 for ~$219 MSRP.
6870 performs under 6870 for ~$279 MSRP.

A mild improvement in price/performance, but not enough to get many terribly excited.

 

[Tudz]

I can't help but think this naming scheme is simply to keep the prices higher so the new cards come with the same price/performance as the old ones.

l was hoping for 5850 performance in the 6750 for similar price to a 5770, now it seems like 5850 performance in the 6850 for much the same price as the 5850.

 

[needmorecarnitine]

It looks to me like they are abandoning the high end gaming market. Their "high end" card will merely be a mid-range offering.

Really? Me too!

I thought they were going to come out with a more powerful videocard with a different name but now I think they will start selling bananas instead.

 

[Snowdog]

I can't help but think this naming scheme is simply to keep the prices higher so the new cards come with the same price/performance as the old ones.

l was hoping for 5850 performance in the 6750 for similar price to a 5770, now it seems like 5850 performance in the 6850 for much the same price as the 5850.

Yeah, that is my thinking as well. I think if they called it 6770, they were worried people would expect 5770 type pricing. I think the price performance will improve a little bit, but just enough for the lower end card to compete with the 460.

 

[kllrnohj]

You are dreaming. 4850 dropped from competitive pressure, not because ATI only wanted $150. When the 5xxx series released, it actually went UP more than MSRP, because of high demand and ZERO competition.

You must not have a very good memory. The 4xxx series really didn't have any competition when it launched. The 4870 launched $100 cheaper than the GTX 260, and the 4850 launched much cheaper than the 9800GTX it was competing against.

The price dropped to $150 so quickly because the card was cheap and ATI wanted to take back marketshare ASAP. There wasn't any competition to it for a long time.

That still doesn't change that 4850 MSRP was $200 vs. 5850 MSRP of $260 (I think?), and 4870 MSRP of $300 vs. 5870 MSRP of $390.

The real reason they are doing this is because they made ZERO advancements in a year because they are still stuck with the same process.

They are doing a new architecture, and you have no clue what advancements they may or may not have made. Still being 40nm means next to nothing about how it will perform. Architecture is every bit as important as process - hell, it's *more* important. All the transistors in the world don't matter if you don't know what to do with them. Process just determines how many transistors they get to play with - how much performance they get out of them is completely dependent on the architecture.

 

[NIVO]

too much confusing info and numbers for now. Best wait til we get solid info. Take off, nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

 

[Cali3350]

6850 = replacement for 5750 - supposed to be $150
6870 = replacement for 5770 - supposed to be ~$220
6950 = replacement for 5850 - supposed to be ~$320
6970 = replacement for 6870 - supposed to be ~$400
6990 = replacement for 5970 - Sky is the limit

The prices above are just based on cumulative speculation of all leaks and discussion at beyond3d, I have no facts to link and I am not presenting them as such, just a currently likely idea of what the market will be.

Yes, its absolutely as fucking stupid as it sounds.

 

[Cali3350]

The real reason they are doing this is because they made ZERO advancements in a year because they are still stuck with the same process.

They have completely redone their shader architecture and improved Tesselation performance substantially, what the hell are you talking about?

 

[fattypants]

I think ATI has finally figured out how to generate prelaunch buzz.

 

[Lorien]

They have completely redone their shader architecture and improved Tesselation performance substantially, what the hell are you talking about?

Well he is an engineer that works at AMD, you should feel lucky he has shared his insider secrets with us. Oh wait.

It looks to me like they are abandoning the high end gaming market. Their "high end" card will merely be a mid-range offering.

I think they are going to end up like S3 or PowerVR.

Kids, just say no to drugs.

I think ATI has finally figured out how to generate prelaunch buzz.

You think? It seems more like the hype came from websites desperate for clicks and ad views.

 

[Snowdog]

You must not have a very good memory. The 4xxx series really didn't have any competition when it launched. The 4870 launched $100 cheaper than the GTX 260, and the 4850 launched much cheaper than the 9800GTX it was competing against.

No competition? More like AMD had no part to compete with NVs best and had to aim for midrange with it's top part. So it is hardly surprising they had to enter the market at a cheaper price.

There is a fair bit of premium attached with having the fastest part on the market as opposed to needed to face your opponents mid-range with your best. It is only natural that when AMD launched 5870 as fastest GPU on the market, the could command $60-$80 more in premium than when they had to compete for mid-range.

 

[Snowdog]

They have completely redone their shader architecture and improved Tesselation performance substantially, what the hell are you talking about?

Really? Where can I see these benchmarks.

Every single leak I have seen, indicates 6870 (Barts) will be slower than 5870. Certainly they have reworked the architecture, but they seem to have put the effort into smaller, lower power, slower chip.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

No competition? More like AMD had no part to compete with NVs best and had to aim for midrange with it's top part. So it is hardly surprising they had to enter the market at a cheaper price.

There is a fair bit of premium attached with having the fastest part on the market as opposed to needed to face your opponents mid-range with your best. It is only natural that when AMD launched 5870 as fastest GPU on the market, the could command $60-$80 more in premium than when they had to compete for mid-range.

AMD earned a lot of money and gained a lot of marketshare with their 4000 series, due to their sweetspot strategy.

The 6000 series primary competition isn't the GTX 480, but the GTX 460. If you look at recent steam survey (which is hardly a full statistics, but can be used to see the trends), you'll notice that the GTX 480 isn't even on the all video cards list and haven't been during the 6-7 months its been on the market. The GTX 460 however, have arrived on the all video cards list this month.

If AMD first releases a card in the priceclass of the GTX 460, they can probably gain more money and sales then releasing their 6900 highend cards first. With the Barts, they can kill the GTX 460 sales if they price them the same . Nvidia's true halo card during this generation seems to be the GTX 460.

 

[Snowdog]

If AMD first releases a card in the priceclass of the GTX 460, they can probably gain more money and sales then releasing their 6900 highend cards first. With the Barts, they can kill the GTX 460 sales if they price them the same . Nvidia's true halo card during this generation seems to be the GTX 460.

Note in the post you are quoting I am just pointing out that there was a significant reason why 58xx could command a higher premium than 48xx. Pricing is always driven by where you fit against competition.

Naturally the most important thing AMD has to do is counter the GTX 460. But IMO it will leave a bad taste if the 68xx has less performance than 58xx (which certainly appears to be the case).

Though, kill the GTX 460 does seem like an exaggeration. I don't really think AMD wants a price war, IMO the 6850 will be close in price and performance to the 460, giving people a choice, but it won't be a massacre.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Note in the post you are quoting I am just pointing out that there was a significant reason why 58xx could command a higher premium than 48xx. Pricing is always driven by where you fit against competition.

Naturally the most important thing AMD has to do is counter the GTX 460. But IMO it will leave a bad taste if the 68xx has less performance than 58xx (which certainly appears to be the case).

Though, kill the GTX 460 does seem like an exaggeration. I don't really think AMD wants a price war, IMO the 6850 will be close in price and performance to the 460, giving people a choice, but it won't be a massacre.

My point was that there is no need of a price premium. AMD earned a lot of money by using sweetspot strategy and sell a lot of cards. They will earn more money I think by fighting the GTX 460 then going for the single GPU crown. They already have the single card crown.

68XX having less performance then the 58XX doesn't matter that much if the price/performance value is there. Thats what sells a lot of cards these days. The GTX 460 is excellent in that regard.

Highend segment usually have enthusiasts as customers and enthusiasts usually read reviews I think and know that the 69XX series is a month away. I bet that the only ones you'll see complain about the 68XX series are the ones that read reviews and know that they are not the successor to the 58XX.

If AMD was/is to sell the 6870 at the price of 5870 with lower performance, I could understand the complaints. But, if they are not, its more reason to feel you get stiffed if the GTX 460's will have much lower performance and you still have to pay price premium for them.

 

[Cali3350]

Really? Where can I see these benchmarks.

Every single leak I have seen, indicates 6870 (Barts) will be slower than 5870. Certainly they have reworked the architecture, but they seem to have put the effort into smaller, lower power, slower chip.

thats because the 6870 is in absolutely no way the market replacement for the 5870, the 6870 is the market replacement for the 5770. Now you can argue over how stupid that is all you want and I will agree, but to compare two completely different levels of cards is beyond stupid.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

thats because the 6870 is in absolutely no way the market replacement for the 5870, the 6870 is the market replacement for the 5770. Now you can argue over how stupid that is all you want and I will agree, but to compare two completely different levels of cards is beyond stupid.

Not to mentioned that the cards will no longer be called ATI if the rumors are true. You'll have the ATI 5000 series and the AMD 6000 series. If there were a good time to use X9XX for their highest end single GPU, now would be the time when they also change the brand name.

 

[Tudz]

6850 = replacement for 5750 - supposed to be $150
6870 = replacement for 5770 - supposed to be ~$220
6950 = replacement for 5850 - supposed to be ~$320
6970 = replacement for 6870 - supposed to be ~$400
6990 = replacement for 5970 - Sky is the limit

The prices above are just based on cumulative speculation of all leaks and discussion at beyond3d, I have no facts to link and I am not presenting them as such, just a currently likely idea of what the market will be.

Yes, its absolutely as fucking stupid as it sounds.

I think that's pretty optimistic. I reckon they're more likely to release the 6850 and 6870 at 5850 and 5870 pricing to milk the market more. I dont see why they'd be motivated to undercut the 5000 series with higher naming, lower price and better performance.

When the rumours were saying they'd be named 6750 and 6770 I was thinking "they're gonna be releasing these to replace the 57xx series and blow away the GTX450/460!" Now they are being named 68xx, I dont think they're aiming for that anymore, just a slight adjustment to the current line up to put more pressure on the GTX450 and 460.

I reckon their pricing will revolve around being low enough to get more people to buy their cards over nVidia, but still high enough to get the most money out of people. They get the most benefit when people think "This is slightly better than what nVidia offer so I'll buy it", which is not what pricing a card as low as the 5770/GTX450 which has similar performance to a 5870 (the 6870).

 

[PersonalJ]

I think that's pretty optimistic. I reckon they're more likely to release the 6850 and 6870 at 5850 and 5870 pricing to milk the market more. I dont see why they'd be motivated to undercut the 5000 series with higher naming, lower price and better performance.

When the rumours were saying they'd be named 6750 and 6770 I was thinking "they're gonna be releasing these to replace the 57xx series and blow away the GTX450/460!" Now they are being named 68xx, I dont think they're aiming for that anymore, just a slight adjustment to the current line up to put more pressure on the GTX450 and 460.

I reckon their pricing will revolve around being low enough to get more people to buy their cards over nVidia, but still high enough to get the most money out of people. They get the most benefit when people think "This is slightly better than what nVidia offer so I'll buy it", which is not what pricing a card as low as the 5770/GTX450 which has similar performance to a 5870 (the 6870).

The 5770 performed the same as a 4870 and the MSRP is around $160. There is no way AMD is going to do rip-off prices that are not competitive with the GTX 460 1GB. It's not far fetched to believe we'll be getting roughly 5870 performance for around $200. I can already buy a 5850 for close to $200 after MIR.

 

[Cali3350]

I think that's pretty optimistic. I reckon they're more likely to release the 6850 and 6870 at 5850 and 5870 pricing to milk the market more. I dont see why they'd be motivated to undercut the 5000 series with higher naming, lower price and better performance.

When the rumours were saying they'd be named 6750 and 6770 I was thinking "they're gonna be releasing these to replace the 57xx series and blow away the GTX450/460!" Now they are being named 68xx, I dont think they're aiming for that anymore, just a slight adjustment to the current line up to put more pressure on the GTX450 and 460.

I reckon their pricing will revolve around being low enough to get more people to buy their cards over nVidia, but still high enough to get the most money out of people. They get the most benefit when people think "This is slightly better than what nVidia offer so I'll buy it", which is not what pricing a card as low as the 5770/GTX450 which has similar performance to a 5870 (the 6870).

Not a chance in hell the 6870 will cost what the 5870 does. The renaming of the card to a "higher level" than it should be is already going to get them A LOT of flack. If they made it perform worse too they would be destroyed. The only way they would do what they are doing is if the keep up the pricing.

 

[Snowdog]

The 5770 performed the same as a 4870 and the MSRP is around $160. There is no way AMD is going to do rip-off prices that are not competitive with the GTX 460 1GB. It's not far fetched to believe we'll be getting roughly 5870 performance for around $200. I can already buy a 5850 for close to $200 after MIR.

The gtx 460 is ~$219, which is where I expect the 6850 will drop, the 6870 will likely be ~$279.

If they were going to price it like the 5770, they would name it the 6770.

 

[Cali3350]

The gtx 460 is ~$219, which is where I expect the 6850 will drop, the 6870 will likely be ~$279.

If they were going to price it like the 5770, they would name it the 6770.

That makes absolutely no sense, the 768mb 460 is easily found for 150 and the 1gb is pretty easily found for 200 or less. If ATI did that they would NOTHING between the 5770 and the 6850, which is exactly where those cards are, which means they would cede that market to them. It very literally makes no sense at all.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

The gtx 460 is ~$219, which is where I expect the 6850 will drop, the 6870 will likely be ~$279.

If they were going to price it like the 5770, they would name it the 6770.

Not necessarily. Ati doesn't exist anymore. 5770 was an ATI card, not an AMD card.

AMD is not only changing the main brand name, but the numbering and also the GPU family itself. APU's are going to be introduced, which will be offered to OEM's probably as alternative to add-in cards. Intel will probably do the same with Sandy Bridge instead of their IGP's. The entry point is changing. AMD has also started to market platforms under the name AMD Vision. Things change.

I think that the 6870 will be priced around the GTX 460 as well, but not because it would have been the 6770. This is not a GTX 8800 series to GTX 9800 series renaming as we have seen before. The market is changing with Fusion (and Sandy Bridge).

 

[IRSmurf]

6850 <--- Replaces 5770 performs around 5830
6870 <--- Replaced 5830 performs around 5850
6950 <--- Replaces 5850 performs between 5850/5870
6970 <--- Replaces 5870 performance ???
6990 <--- Replaces 5970 performance ???

That seems really deceptive for ATI. It sucks to be not constantly on top of video cards. A lot of non-[H]'ers will be in for a rude awakening when they pop in a 6870 and it is no more powerful than a 5870.

 

[PersonalJ]

The gtx 460 is ~$219, which is where I expect the 6850 will drop, the 6870 will likely be ~$279.

If they were going to price it like the 5770, they would name it the 6770.

I can pick up a GTX 460 1GB for around $190 easily. Just need to wait for a deal to pop up. I picked up my 4850 for $158 after MIR right when they released on newegg, you don't pay MSRP unless you absolutely must have a particular brand. I've seen 5770 cards for $110 after mail in rebate, $220 and you have two in crossfire with great performance. This is a new generation, AMD is 6 months ahead of Nvidia, performance/price will be better.

http://slickdeals.net/sdsearch.php?forumchoice[]=9&search=GTX+460&mode=forum&showposts=0&sdsearch_archive=0&firstpost=1

 

[Snowdog]

I can pick up a GTX 460 1GB for around $190 easily. Just need to wait for a deal to pop up. I picked up my 4850 for $158 after MIR right when they released on newegg, you don't pay MSRP unless you absolutely must have a particular brand.

http://slickdeals.net/sdsearch.php?forumchoice[]=9&search=GTX+460&mode=forum&showposts=0&sdsearch_archive=0&firstpost=1

It is impossible to predict what pricing will be on some special deal somewhere you found on the net, that is why I am predicting MSRP.

You will be able to easily pick up an 6850 for $190 just as "easily"(eventually), but the MSRP will likely be around $219. But they aren't going to set MSRP to match the lowest price of some off brand on some deal site.

 

[PersonalJ]

It is impossible to predict what pricing will be on some special deal somewhere you found on the net, that is why I am predicting MSRP.

You will be able to easily pick up an 6850 for $190 just as "easily"(eventually), but the MSRP will likely be around $219. But they aren't going to set MSRP to match the lowest price of some off brand on some deal site.

Well at this point it's difficult to even say that the 68xx series is barts. But I think it's safe to say within a month there will be a 6xxx series card for $200-$250 MSRP that is going to be a great buy and leave those who just bought a 460 1gb at MSRP looking rather silly. I can already get 5870 performance out of two 5770s for $220, AMD isn't going to give us a rebadged 5770 for $200.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

That seems really deceptive for ATI. It sucks to be not constantly on top of video cards. A lot of non-[H]'ers will be in for a rude awakening when they pop in a 6870 and it is no more powerful than a 5870.

Those people would probably already be confused if they should buy an ATI 5870, an AMD 6870 or a Nvidia GTX 480.

This is not only a number change, but a brand change (including a whole new line of GPU(APU) products as mentioned above). People survived Nvidia's change to GTX 100, GTX 200 etc and probably would survive the name and product changes to AMD as well.

And, not to mention that if the AMD 6870 is priced as 5770, they already got the best option for the money if they perform as rumored. Most buy after bang for buck.

 

[Red Falcon]

Those people would probably already be confused if they should buy an ATI 5870, an AMD 6870 or a Nvidia GTX 480.

This is not only a number change, but a brand change (including a whole new line of GPU(APU) products as mentioned above). People survived Nvidia's change to GTX 100, GTX 200 etc and probably would survive the name and product changes to AMD as well.

And, not to mention that if the AMD 6870 is priced as 5770, they already got the best option for the money if they perform as rumored. Most buy after bang for buck.

GTX100 series? When was this?

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

GTX100 series? When was this?

When Nvidia introduced the 200 series, older cards (G92) were called 100 series and sold to OEM's:
Heres GTS150

Here's the full rename of that time:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...Geforce-GTS-150-GT-130-GT-120-and-G-100/News/

Edit: Note that the G92 was used in the 8800 and 9800 series as well.

It kinda moots the point of how bad it is that the 6870 isn't named 6770... Especially considering that AMD is not only changing the numbering, but are also killing the ATI brand name.

6000 series is not ATI. ATI is dead. The 6000 series is AMD and they have changed the numbers along with the branding.

 

[Red Falcon]

When Nvidia introduced the 200 series, older cards (G92) were called 100 series and sold to OEM's:
Heres GTS150

Here's the full rename of that time:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...Geforce-GTS-150-GT-130-GT-120-and-G-100/News/

Edit: Note that the G92 was used in the 8800 and 9800 series as well.

LOL

The GTS150 OEM is just a GTS250/9800GTX+, haha, I had no clue that even existed.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

LOL

The GTS150 OEM is just a GTS250/9800GTX+, haha, I had no clue that even existed.

Thanks for the info.

LOL! The G92b is probably the most renamed GPU, but its not for nothing that it still on top of Steam survey. Took ATI a long time to catch up with it.

Here's another funny point for you:
GTS450 vs. GTS250

Seems the GTS450 are close to equal with the GTS250 in performance depending on test or game. Pretty funny in light of this thread, don't you think?

 

[Agent_N]

LOL no.

Maybe you're confusing GPU score with the artificially inflated PhysX CPU score? That is why people more often use GPU scores rather than even talking about the overall scores in Vantage anymore because it essentially eliminates that massive and irrelevant variable.

Actually, he may be right, if you ran the 480 in 3D Mark 2001!!

 

[Dizon248]

When Nvidia introduced the 200 series, older cards (G92) were called 100 series and sold to OEM's:
Heres GTS150

Here's the full rename of that time:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...Geforce-GTS-150-GT-130-GT-120-and-G-100/News/

Edit: Note that the G92 was used in the 8800 and 9800 series as well.

It kinda moots the point of how bad it is that the 6870 isn't named 6770... Especially considering that AMD is not only changing the numbering, but are also killing the ATI brand name.

6000 series is not ATI. ATI is dead. The 6000 series is AMD and they have changed the numbers along with the branding.

Yeap, a lot of people are getting really confused on this forum, thinking that the 6870 (a midrange, NOT HIGH END, replacement for the 5770) is supposed to be better than a 5870 (single gpu flagship) assuming that it is supposed to be a 5870 replacement, which is completely wrong.

 

[Snowdog]

But I think it's safe to say within a month there will be a 6xxx series card for $200-$250 MSRP that is going to be a great buy and leave those who just bought a 460 1gb at MSRP looking rather silly.

That isn't safe to say at all. I think the 6850 will be in that price range, but I think it will underperform the 5850, in which case it will right in the GTX 460 performance and price ballpark, so I don't know why anyone with a 460 would look silly.

This is not only a number change, but a brand change (including a whole new line of GPU(APU) products as mentioned above).

That is a rather specious argument. This might make sense if they said: "Introducing AMD graphics cards with the 1xxx series". But it isn't like it is a clean slate, they are clearly carrying on the generational naming scheme. The disappearance of ATI logo is irrellevant to this change.

And, not to mention that if the AMD 6870 is priced as 5770, they already got the best option for the money if they perform as rumored.

It won't be priced like 5770. The only clear reason I can think of for using 68xx on Barts is they want to maintain closer x8xx series pricing. If they called it a 6770 people would be expecting a much lower price.

The reality is without die shrink there is no transistor budget increase to radically improve price/performance. Instead of moving into the 5770s niche. The 68xx will just be moving down a little bit in niche. Offering only a small improvement in price performance, thus calling it 68xx.