Zen 3 CPUs - 500 Series or Newer Chipsets Only

bigdogchris said:
I think part of the reason AMD is doing this is to get away from the CPU loaner program. Even if they were to follow Hardware Unboxed plan to have multiple BIOS options available, for new motherboards you would still need at least one generation of CPU's available in both BIOS's which would mean the CPU loaner program chip would need to fall into that category, which it currently does not. The loaner CPU is a GEN1 Ryzen based chip. They would have to maintain compatibility with that chip in the newer BIOS as well so the flash would finish. Then consider if they ever need to change what CPU, or the situation where a user may be trying to flash to a BIOS that doesn't support their current CPU, etc.
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BIOS CPU support is only needed to get the system running. So flashing a BIOS that doesn't support with an older CPU by the new BIOS image wouldn't be a problem until you rebooted after the flash was complete. So you flash, shut down, switch CPUs, and boot up with the new BIOS.


My guess is that they're having problems validating the new CPU on the older chipsets and have decided it's not worth the expense of trying to sort it out.
 
ryan_975 said:
BIOS CPU support is only needed to get the system running. So flashing a BIOS that doesn't support with an older CPU by the new BIOS image wouldn't be a problem until you rebooted after the flash was complete. So you flash, shut down, switch CPUs, and boot up with the new BIOS.


My guess is that they're having problems validating the new CPU on the older chipsets and have decided it's not worth the expense of trying to sort it out.
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Have old cpu installed, flashes bios, installs new cpu since the computer will no longer post with old cpu, of course. Proceeds not to post, at all, with the new cpu, now the user is stuck, unless the motherboard supports bios flash back without a cpu installed and that is, I believe, only on higher end boards.
 
ManofGod said:
Have old cpu installed, flashes bios, installs new cpu since the computer will no longer post with old cpu, of course. Proceeds not to post, at all, with the new cpu, now the user is stuck, unless the motherboard supports bios flash back without a cpu installed and that is, I believe, only on higher end boards.
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I'm not sure I see an issue here. To be able to recover a BIOS, the CPU and memory have to be up and running (assuming the board doesn't support out-of-band firmware updates). If you brick the board in such a way that you can't recover the bios from the new CPU, then you wouldn't have been able with the old one if it were still supported.

Though in this day and age all modern systems should be able to update their firmware without anything but a flash drive and a power supply.
 
Just looks to me like a lack of forsight from AMD and motherboard manufacturers. Either that or nobody wanted to buy the more expensive and larger BIOS NAND for this sorta thing. As a B350 2700X owner I have no interest in Zen 3, because I don't expect a world of difference compared to what I have right now. Unless Zen3 is the equivalent of Sandbridge in terms of performance jump, I just don't care.
 
Master_shake_ said:
Size limit is a real limitation.

You can't just add space to a BIOS chip.
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Problem is a lot of 4 series boards have the same size bios chips as 5 series boards. I have one of the 3 series MSI boards that got support eventually, they were able to fit the bios after trimming older CPU support, colors, image etc.
 
Gideon said:
I will worry about this when I see what ASUS plans when these chips are close to launch.
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Asus nor any other manufacturer will be able to enable Zen 3 support. AMD will not be giving them the microcode needed. This is not like the previous chips where vendors had the option.
DukenukemX said:
Just looks to me like a lack of forsight from AMD and motherboard manufacturers. Either that or nobody wanted to buy the more expensive and larger BIOS NAND for this sorta thing. As a B350 2700X owner I have no interest in Zen 3, because I don't expect a world of difference compared to what I have right now. Unless Zen3 is the equivalent of Sandbridge in terms of performance jump, I just don't care.
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Not exactly. As pointed out in the video I linked, some 400 series boards have enough capacity to support the new chips. AMD simply is refusing to allow it.
 
bigdogchris said:
Asus nor any other manufacturer will be able to enable Zen 3 support. AMD will not be giving them the microcode needed. This is not like the previous chips where vendors had the option.
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We will see when we get close to release what actually happens. Until then, all we can do is guess but, if you want 100% certainty at the moment, buy an X570. :)
 
ManofGod said:
We will see when we get close to release what actually happens. Until then, all we can do is guess but, if you want 100% certainty at the moment, buy an X570. :)
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Yes, we will see what actually happens, but a solution of "buy an X570" isn't always an option. It is kind of a dick move by AMD, especially since there are plenty of boards available without the problem cited for not supporting older boards (see the new MSI Max series for example).
 
Intel's gonna intel...

dk_0601k0414.jpg
 
kirbyrj said:
Yes, we will see what actually happens, but a solution of "buy an X570" isn't always an option. It is kind of a dick move by AMD, especially since there are plenty of boards available without the problem cited for not supporting older boards (see the new MSI Max series for example).
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Why is it not always an option, today, if you are buying new and not upgrading, today? And if you cannot afford one, then wait for the B550, if you plan on doing Zen 4. Of course, at this point, if someone is buying brand new and waited this long......
 
ManofGod said:
Why is it not always an option, today, if you are buying new and not upgrading, today? And if you cannot afford one, then wait for the B550, if you plan on doing Zen 4. Of course, at this point, if someone is buying brand new and waited this long......
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Fair enough, I shouldn't say, "isn't always an option" as it is technically always an option, but I should say, "Is a fucking stupid option when you already have a motherboard which would work perfectly fine if AMD would just allow it to work."

This is the same nonsensical behavior which I fault Intel for all the time. At least with Intel you had a little notice. AMD is still selling B450 boards as their go to mainstream part.

I'm sure that someone will figure out a way to hack the bios to allow it as the socket is no different. I mean if they can do it with Intel with different pins, it should be a piece of cake with the same pins. But the point is it shouldn't come to that.
 
bigdogchris said:
Asus nor any other manufacturer will be able to enable Zen 3 support. AMD will not be giving them the microcode needed. This is not like the previous chips where vendors had the option.
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Nothing personal against you, but I will believe it when ASUS says so, until then this is just a rumor. I mean you own chart says my 3900X should not be working on my X370 board. I appreciate you sharing the news tho, but this was also speculated last launch as to be a issue.
 
bigdogchris said:
Hardware Unboxed makes a case for why AMD is wrong about this decision and is screwing some of their customers (400 series specifically)

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AMD just can't help themselves even when they are on top. Crappy drivers, bullshit marketing, lying about spec and support, GPU division, CPU division...ah, never change. They seem to desperately want to be Intel in every way.
 
Gideon said:
Nothing personal against you, but I will believe it when ASUS says so, until then this is just a rumor. I mean you own chart says my 3900X should not be working on my X370 board. I appreciate you sharing the news tho, but this was also speculated last launch as to be a issue.
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If enough people complain, AMD may reverse this decision.
 
ManofGod said:
Why is it not always an option, today, if you are buying new and not upgrading, today? And if you cannot afford one, then wait for the B550, if you plan on doing Zen 4. Of course, at this point, if someone is buying brand new and waited this long......
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Because why spend the money on a x570 when a B350 works just as good? It does everything I need.
I am only a little upset about it since it should be up to the MB makers. I will not need a cpu for a while anyways.
 
Hagrid said:
Because why spend the money on a x570 when a B350 works just as good? It does everything I need.
I am only a little upset about it since it should be up to the MB makers. I will not need a cpu for a while anyways.
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That and not everybody is running a monster CPU. I'm sure a b350 could handle a 6C/12T 65W "4600" processor easily.
 
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I hang out on bios-mods.com sometimes, and I'm quite sure anyone could get a BIOS modded for their older motherboard that runs AMD's newest processor. If it is truly compatible. AMD might still be right.

But with a shout of holy rage, let me raise the sword of ultimate elitism:

If you are a computer builder who will dare touch the sacred hardware within your machine and update CPUs, GPUs, and other components, then you will have no fear modifying the BIOS of your system to get unauthorized CPUs to work if they are truly compatible. The ethos of the 1337 h@x0r lives as a fire in the hearts of those with courage.

To be quite honest and harsh, the complete cowardice of the poor fools complaining about this issue makes me sick.
Filthy Luddites need to remember the origins of advanced technology: Matter and energy manipulation is the core of creating the divine computational substrate of our personal computers.

Just modify your BIOS. Why is there so much whining and complaining? If it's a "BIOS space limitation," or other severe incompatibility, then AMD is right, so stand down.

If it's an artificial limitation, then stand up straight and remember who you are: You are the master of your machine. Modify the internal components and hardware and software to your desire if you are as "enthusiastic" as you claim to be. And if you're not a computer enthusiast, then this issue doesn't concern you.
 
Aegir said:
I hang out on bios-mods.com sometimes, and I'm quite sure anyone could get a BIOS modded for their older motherboard that runs AMD's newest processor. If it is truly compatible. AMD might still be right.

But with a shout of holy rage, let me raise the sword of ultimate elitism:

If you are a computer builder who will dare touch the sacred hardware within your machine and update CPUs, GPUs, and other components, then you will have no fear modifying the BIOS of your system to get unauthorized CPUs to work if they are truly compatible. The ethos of the 1337 h@x0r lives as a fire in the hearts of those with courage.

To be quite honest and harsh, the complete cowardice of the poor fools complaining about this issue makes me sick.
Filthy Luddites need to remember the origins of advanced technology: Matter and energy manipulation is the core of creating the divine computational substrate of our personal computers.

Just modify your BIOS. Why is there so much whining and complaining? If it's a "BIOS space limitation," or other severe incompatibility, then AMD is right, so stand down.

If it's an artificial limitation, then stand up straight and remember who you are: You are the master of your machine. Modify the internal components and hardware and software to your desire if you are as "enthusiastic" as you claim to be. And if you're not a computer enthusiast, then this issue doesn't concern you.
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simmer down, noob. ;)
it not always possible to bios mod, we'll see.
 
kirbyrj said:
That and not everybody is running a monster CPU. I'm sure a b350 could handle a 6C/12T 65W "4600" processor easily.
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Actually it says up to a 3950x. Probably not OC, but the compatibility is there for it.
 
Aegir said:
I hang out on bios-mods.com sometimes, and I'm quite sure anyone could get a BIOS modded for their older motherboard that runs AMD's newest processor. If it is truly compatible. AMD might still be right.

But with a shout of holy rage, let me raise the sword of ultimate elitism:

If you are a computer builder who will dare touch the sacred hardware within your machine and update CPUs, GPUs, and other components, then you will have no fear modifying the BIOS of your system to get unauthorized CPUs to work if they are truly compatible. The ethos of the 1337 h@x0r lives as a fire in the hearts of those with courage.

To be quite honest and harsh, the complete cowardice of the poor fools complaining about this issue makes me sick.
Filthy Luddites need to remember the origins of advanced technology: Matter and energy manipulation is the core of creating the divine computational substrate of our personal computers.

Just modify your BIOS. Why is there so much whining and complaining? If it's a "BIOS space limitation," or other severe incompatibility, then AMD is right, so stand down.

If it's an artificial limitation, then stand up straight and remember who you are: You are the master of your machine. Modify the internal components and hardware and software to your desire if you are as "enthusiastic" as you claim to be. And if you're not a computer enthusiast, then this issue doesn't concern you.
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If AMD doesn't include the old chipsets in the the platform initialization code for the new CPU (i.e. AGESA), there's not much a modder will be able do.
 
ryan_975 said:
When AMD doesn't include the old chipsets in the the platform initialization code for the new CPU (i.e. AGESA), there's not much a modder can do.
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If they do not, if. The key thing is, they may change direction and we still have a long way to go. (Will they depends entirely upon motherboard manufacturers, however.)
 
ManofGod said:
If they do not, if. The key thing is, they may change direction and we still have a long way to go. (Will they depends entirely upon motherboard manufacturers, however.)
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Yeah, I edited my post to reflect that I was speaking hypothetically.
 
Eh, Tech Jesus there kinda loses me in the first 2mins. Are there really people out there comparing this to eh, current real world problems going on? Or is that just the standard youtube comment swarm of stupidity?
 
Ranulfo said:
Eh, Tech Jesus there kinda loses me in the first 2mins. Are there really people out there comparing this to eh, current real world problems going on? Or is that just the standard youtube comment swarm of stupidity?
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Standard general population swarm of stupidity. People love to be outraged about something.
 
Ranulfo said:
Eh, Tech Jesus there kinda loses me in the first 2mins. Are there really people out there comparing this to eh, current real world problems going on? Or is that just the standard youtube comment swarm of stupidity?
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Yeah, and later on, he shares that Intels SOP is to never mention AMD. Instead, Intel does anti competitive and illegal behavior, instead. (Which he does not mention.) :D
 
bigdogchris said:
AMD simply is refusing to allow it.
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I'm pretty sure they aren't "refusing to allow it"
They're simply making sure that it's not expected or required.

I'm positive we'll see some X470 boards with support. Maybe even some X370 on the super high end.

It's just not gonna be unanimous board support.

AMD has no plans to introduce “Zen 3” architecture support for older chipsets. While we wish could enable full support for every processor on every chipset, the flash memory chips that store BIOS settings and support have capacity limitations. Given these limitations, and the unprecedented longevity of the AM4 socket, there will inevitably be a time and place where a transition to free up space is necessary—the AMD 500 Series chipsets are that time.
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Yeah, "no plans", not that it's impossible, not that it's REFUSING TO ALLOW IT.
only "no plans"

Which basically means motherboard makers are on their own on this one or that plans may change in the future.
 
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TheSlySyl said:
I'm pretty sure they aren't "refusing to allow it"
They're simply making sure that it's not expected or required.

I'm positive we'll see some X470 boards with support. Maybe even some X370 on the super high end.

It's just not gonna be unanimous board support.


Yeah, "no plans", not that it's impossible, not that it's REFUSING TO ALLOW IT.
only "no plans"

Which basically means motherboard makers are on their own on this one or that plans may change in the future.
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I don't see it that way. If they don't provide AGESA or whatever other requirements are necessary for 4XX motherboards to manufacturers then they are refusing to allow it. If a MB manufacturer has to reverse engineer something to get it to work, then AMD is essentially refusing to allow it.

I watched the whole Tech Jesus video. I agree on certain things like: I think the issue of the 16MB ROM size is real. The reason it is only 16MB on most boards is because it's a cheaper part in an industry where there are thin margins. I disagree with him in that I don't think it's the end of the world for there to be split levels of support. For example, if you have a highend 32MB X370 board, you should be able to fit all the microcode necessary. But if I bought a B350 with a 16MB one, I lose out on support. Or the MSI Max boards...if you have a Max board you get all the support. I don't have a problem with leaving it up to the motherboard manufacturer to decide on support. I think going forward, there should be something like a 32MB ROM board might cost $10 more, but you have an expectation of upgrades. A 16MB board gets the current generation and one additional generation (like Intel does). Or the X series has larger ROM sizing but the B series has smaller ROM sizing.
 
I will have to look for the 2016/2017 article that talked about AM4 support through 2020. I could swear it had a caveat like “we reserve the right to reverse this decision due to engineer needs or because we want to....”

I don’t think they are pulling an Intel yet, however, if they say it can’t run and the community develops an easy way to say... run a new 4xxx on an a350 board. Well maybe they are not that far off from Intel.
 
I bought two msi max boards this year, thinking the max's would get zen3 support.
So when I went AMD thinking i wouldnt be getting fucked by intel for a while, I got fucked by AMD instead.
 
Verado said:
I bought two msi max boards this year, thinking the max's would get zen3 support.
So when I went AMD thinking i wouldnt be getting fucked by intel for a while, I got fucked by AMD instead.
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Honestly, MSI is in a bad spot if AMD completely locks out Zen 3. MSI is still directly advertising that the MAX boards will support all future AM4 products. I feel like worst case, you're probably going to at least get some money out of MSI from a false advertising suit.
 
TheSlySyl said:
I'm positive we'll see some X470 boards with support. Maybe even some X370 on the super high end.
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I’m positive that’s not going to happen. They’ll cite clarity like they did when it was found that certain X470 boards had PCI-E 4.0 lanes supported. They already said they’re not sending the code for motherboard manufacturers to do this. Time to accept the X470 is at the end of its line and move on.
 
Doesn’t really affect me in my case since I tend to keep my systems for a while. My last one was 6 years, and I only upgraded because I was on a 4 core i5 and my frame rate was getting crunched after some games started moving their designs to 6 cores. By the time I’m going to upgrade, DDR5 will be out and I’ll want a new mobo anyway.

Still, this totally blows for people who bought based on the marketing that AMD put out when the processors launched. That simply isn’t acceptable, especially if you bought a CPU on the lower end since these are the ones that are most likely to be upgraded in the future and probably were bought by those on a budget who might not be able to afford a full upgrade.
 
bigdogchris said:
Asus nor any other manufacturer will be able to enable Zen 3 support. AMD will not be giving them the microcode needed. This is not like the previous chips where vendors had the option.
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Are you sure about that? There already appears to be one example of B450 being confirmed to be compatible with the next generation chips. Granted, this is just one boutique laptop manufacturer, but if they can make it work, then why can't Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, etc?

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-4000-desktop-cpus-socket-motherboard
 
GotNoRice said:
Are you sure about that? There already appears to be one example of B450 being confirmed to be compatible with the next generation chips. Granted, this is just one boutique laptop manufacturer, but if they can make it work, then why can't Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, etc?

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-4000-desktop-cpus-socket-motherboard
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I don't know because I don't work for AMD and have not spoken with them. Hardware Unboxed was pretty adamant that after speaking with AMD, this time is diffferent than Zen 3000 and that they would not be providing the microcode needed to run Zen 4000 series in 400 series or older motherboards. The update from Gamers Nexus also confirms this after they spoke with motherboard vendors.

As said earlier, it is possible AMD reverses course on this if enough people complain.
 
Im liking all this shit storm AMD has be receiving . Keeps hope alive they might enable it for atleast us 400 series owners. 300 series had 2 cpu upgrade paths with Zen + and Zen2 so I guess they did pretty well. But knowing the only upgrade path for us 400 series owners is going up higher on the Zen2 pile (3900x or 3950x for me)
 
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