You Should Care about the Supreme Court Case on Toner Cartridges

Megalith

Megalith

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I think this is interesting just on a surface level, as toner runs like water and print companies charge ludicrous prices for first-party cartridges, but we have a case here where the verdict could have consequences on practically any purchased product. Lexmark is suing a company and claiming patent infringement for making non-official cartridges, and if they win, it could mean that companies would have increased control of what someone could do with a product even after purchase.

A corporate squabble over printer toner cartridges doesn’t sound particularly glamorous, and the phrase “patent exhaustion” is probably already causing your eyes to glaze over. However, these otherwise boring topics are the crux of a Supreme Court case that will answer a question with far-reaching impact for all consumers: Can a company that sold you something use its patent on that product to control how you choose to use after you buy it? The case in question is Impression Products, Inc v Lexmark International, Inc, came before the nation’s highest court on Tuesday. As with many SCOTUS disputes, Lexmark is a devil-in-the-details case that could have wide-ranging implications for basically everyone who ever buys anything — so, all of us.
 
So yes - when you buy a printer, check out ink prices and options as that's the real cost of the printer, not what you pay to walk out of office depot.
 
Well I have a couple of laser printers in the office, the ink costs are kind of high for all of the brands I've use in the past, I've had several hps, an epson inkjet that they claim will hold up like a laser (it didn't, was sorely disappointed), a few brothers, never had a lexmark tho. There is also the cost of the drum and in the case of that brother I had, it had a waste toner that needs to be replaced every so often. That actually bugged me more than the ink, some of these other components aren't cheap either.
 
Whenever I buy a printer, I make sure there is generic toner/ink available for it. I can usually buy 3 generic for the cost of a single name brand.
I'll usually by a brand name toner/ink the 1st time while the printer is under warranty, but after that it's all generic.

I sometimes run into a quality issue on the generic toner, like an occasional DOA or one that starts having printing issues before it runs out of toner, but it still saves significant money overall. I usually order 3 at a time for an even better discount, and to have a spare (just in case). Not a problem using them since I have multiples of the same type of printers in most cases.
 
I hope they lose, BUT if they do, I expect printer prices to rise, because an awful lot of them are sold at a loss and they only make money if you buy ink. Personally, I just use a laser printer and if I need to print pictures, I use a photo company.
 
I've always been a Canon fan, but god almighty they drink ink. Until I got a Maxify. Now I don't mind buying original ink. 4 months, family of four, still on original ink!
 
This is weird, do I understand correctly that, in principle, if lexmark wins this case this implies that the second hand market (or even independent repair service?) for any product that contains patented technology could be prohibited by the manufacturer?

Compared to that, the price of ink is rather insignificant imo.
 
nilepez said:
I hope they lose, BUT if they do, I expect printer prices to rise, because an awful lot of them are sold at a loss and they only make money if you buy ink. Personally, I just use a laser printer and if I need to print pictures, I use a photo company.
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I don't have a problem paying 100% of the actual printer price, as long as I'm not stuck paying 1000% for the ink.
 
MV75 said:
lol. Article about toner, put a picture of ink. Conversations then keep randomly crossing the two. Sure you guys really are computer guys?
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Somehow I didn't even catch that it was about toner and not ink.
It doesn't matter that much though, because it's the same arguments either way.
 
MV75 said:
lol. Article about toner, put a picture of ink. Conversations then keep randomly crossing the two. Sure you guys really are computer guys?
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Because it's completely and utterly irrelevant for said conversations. This isn't a discussion about printer mechanics, it's a discussion about how manufacturers are trying to lock down <Thing Printer Accepts To Make Marks On Paper>.
 
My FIL is an EE/QE at Lexmark HQ, up the road. He said the big reason this came about was because these reman carts were fucking up printers, and they were having to eat warranty repairs.
 
alxlwson said:
My FIL is an EE/QE at Lexmark HQ, up the road. He said the big reason this came about was because these reman carts were fucking up printers, and they were having to eat warranty repairs.
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This is exactly it.
Xerox produces a wax based color printer and many years ago sued a company that was making knock off ink for it. This knock off ink damaged the printers. Damage to the tune, it rendered the printer not worth repairing. Xerox took the knock off ink company to court and LOST. The judges ruling had NOTHING to do with the matter at hand. He ruled a consumer has the right to by any kind of ink he wants. Idiot activist judge.
Xerox was put in a position of canceling warranties if they find customer were using knock off ink. But the damage was the perception of the customers. They don't blame themselves or the knock off ink when the printer fails. They blame the printer manufacturer. So they come away saying Xerox is junk.

When it comes to laser printers here is a simple fact. Toner formulations are patented and each brand is designed to work with it's own special formulation. This is why knock off toners leak all the time and don't print worth a crap for the most part. They buy toner in bulk probably formulated for Canon/HPs and put the toner in all different brands. I listen to customer cry and whine about toner issues all day. I don't have much sympathy for them.
 
PhaseNoise said:
Because it's completely and utterly irrelevant for said conversations. This isn't a discussion about printer mechanics, it's a discussion about how manufacturers are trying to lock down <Thing Printer Accepts To Make Marks On Paper>.
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Nope, it's actually a question of first impression on whether the patent first sale doctrine applies to foreign sales and not just to domestic sales. This is an interesting case that the Federal Circuit decided en banc in a 10-2 decision (so not even close) in favor of Lexmark.

With only 8 justices the Supremes will likely tie 4-4 and the Federal Circuit decision will stand.

Here are the pertinent facts.
 
The fact that there is DRM on fucking ink cartridges is criminal in the first place!?!? It boggles my mind that people are OK with that.
 
nilepez said:
I hope they lose, BUT if they do, I expect printer prices to rise, because an awful lot of them are sold at a loss and they only make money if you buy ink. Personally, I just use a laser printer and if I need to print pictures, I use a photo company.
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Printer prices shouldn't rise if Lexmark loses, as it'll just be the status quo.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
This is exactly it.
Xerox produces a wax based color printer and many years ago sued a company that was making knock off ink for it. This knock off ink damaged the printers. Damage to the tune, it rendered the printer not worth repairing. Xerox took the knock off ink company to court and LOST. The judges ruling had NOTHING to do with the matter at hand. He ruled a consumer has the right to by any kind of ink he wants. Idiot activist judge.
Xerox was put in a position of canceling warranties if they find customer were using knock off ink. But the damage was the perception of the customers. They don't blame themselves or the knock off ink when the printer fails. They blame the printer manufacturer. So they come away saying Xerox is junk.

When it comes to laser printers here is a simple fact. Toner formulations are patented and each brand is designed to work with it's own special formulation. This is why knock off toners leak all the time and don't print worth a crap for the most part. They buy toner in bulk probably formulated for Canon/HPs and put the toner in all different brands. I listen to customer cry and whine about toner issues all day. I don't have much sympathy for them.
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I have no problems with companies voiding the warranty IF the 3rd party toner/ink caused the problem.
Based on experience, I'd say this is more of a problem with ink, since improperly formulated ink is more likely to dry out and gum up the print head.

As for Toner, I've used hundreds of 3rd party toners over the years, and I've rarely had a problem. It's usually a defect with the cartridge than with the actual toner.
I've switched vendors a couple times due to the falling quality of their generic toner (they started out great, but a couple years later started having too many DOA's)
I can live with the rare DOA, since they will quickly send me a replacement with free return shipping, and I'm saving 70% compared to OEM.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
This is exactly it.
Xerox produces a wax based color printer and many years ago sued a company that was making knock off ink for it. This knock off ink damaged the printers. Damage to the tune, it rendered the printer not worth repairing. Xerox took the knock off ink company to court and LOST. The judges ruling had NOTHING to do with the matter at hand. He ruled a consumer has the right to by any kind of ink he wants. Idiot activist judge.
Xerox was put in a position of canceling warranties if they find customer were using knock off ink. But the damage was the perception of the customers. They don't blame themselves or the knock off ink when the printer fails. They blame the printer manufacturer. So they come away saying Xerox is junk.

When it comes to laser printers here is a simple fact. Toner formulations are patented and each brand is designed to work with it's own special formulation. This is why knock off toners leak all the time and don't print worth a crap for the most part. They buy toner in bulk probably formulated for Canon/HPs and put the toner in all different brands. I listen to customer cry and whine about toner issues all day. I don't have much sympathy for them.
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I had one of these in my office, spent close to $2k on it. Always ran Xerox wax thru it and it was still garage. Xerox had to warranty it several times, and luckily I had a square trade warranty on it. Square trade ended up cutting me a check for the cost of the printer because it was such a POS.
 
Sometimes, it's cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy new set of ink...
 
Printers are really a magical focal point of bad business practices:

Worse reliability than technology we had decades ago? Check.
Collusion across manufacturers to artificially keep prices high? Check.
DRM to prevent competition? Check.
Planned obsolescence? Check.
 
Nanogrip said:
Sometimes, it's cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy new set of ink...
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That's why cheap printers (at least by HP) come with cartridges that only have 10-20% ink in them already.
 
viscountalpha said:
The fact that there is DRM on fucking ink cartridges is criminal in the first place!?!? It boggles my mind that people are OK with that.
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People AREN'T OK with that. But corporations lobbied to get DRM passed into law, in order to protect their profits. Might makes right, or, in this case, $$$$ makes right. We live in a capitalist society, where if you have enough money, you can do whatever you want.
The anti-socialists don't get what capitalism really is. Capitalism means the richest guy gets to make the rules. We're not rich. So we pay more for the product as per the laws that get passed (paid for by the rich guy).
Right wing conservatives don't have a problem with that until it affects something THEY don't like.
 
Ok lets spin it another way.

Your car needs oil. You used to be able to just replace your oil from any 3rd party. Now they start making the cars that have an oil cap (not filter because that would be useful) that "expires" when its time to replace the oil. Since only the auto maker makes the cap, you have to either take it to a certified oil changer, or buy their "bundle" that comes with the free oil cap that start a count down as soon as you start the car for the first time.
 
vegeta535 said:
It is not just the price it is the damn DRM these printers use. One I have at work will refuse to even print black if any of the colors are empty.
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Heh, my Epson AIO printer refuses to scan if any of the ink carts are empty or it thinks has an issue with them. The chips on the ink carts actually have gone bad on me from non use lol. The ink carts also auto deactivate the chip if you remove them and put them back in.
 
vegeta535 said:
It is not just the price it is the damn DRM these printers use. One I have at work will refuse to even print black if any of the colors are empty.
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that is a setting in some printers. It is because it not only uses black but mixes all colors together along with black to print black when printing in color mode. If you are only printing monocolor pages it is sometimes best / needed to tell the printer to only print in monocolor.

alxlwson said:
My FIL is an EE/QE at Lexmark HQ, up the road. He said the big reason this came about was because these reman carts were fucking up printers, and they were having to eat warranty repairs.
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I have had that happen to me a few times trying to go with whatever cheap crap I could find. After having a few knock offs dump all their toner out into the printer or causing damage to printers that made replacing them the cheapest route to get back to a working printer I decided to stay with more name brand stuff or at the very least known and trusted 3rd party. That said I never found lexmark to be that bad as they sold their own refurbed toner cartridges. Although even one of those came once with the cap out and all the fiber spilled out into the page. Nothing like breathing in a cloud of toner dust froming opening a bag.
 
nightanole said:
Ok lets spin it another way.

Your car needs oil. You used to be able to just replace your oil from any 3rd party. Now they start making the cars that have an oil cap (not filter because that would be useful) that "expires" when its time to replace the oil. Since only the auto maker makes the cap, you have to either take it to a certified oil changer, or buy their "bundle" that comes with the free oil cap that start a count down as soon as you start the car for the first time.
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This analogy doesn't really work, since the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 requries that any company that requires an OEM part, and only an OEM part, to retain warranty status, has to provide said part free of charge to the purchaser.

In regards to this issue with 3rd party toner/ink, why wouldn't the M-M Act apply as well? Let's forget the issue of patent infringement for a minute. If HP/Canon/Epson/Lexmark etc require that you use an OEM supplied toner/ink, and ONLY the OEM part, to retain warranty, then why wouldn't they be required to supply said part free of charge? As long as the OEM's are charging more then $25 for their part, and stating it is required for warranty, then I don't see how this isn't a direct violation.
 
It's the razor blade model. Same business model that the nuclear industry uses. "We'll sell you the reactor at or near cost, because for the rest of it's existence you'll have to buy the fuel bundles from us".
 
We have a Canon printer at the house for school stuff, the Canon cartridges are $44 a piece (or so) for it.

The Chinesium ones are $29.99 for all four colours plus an extra black.

As long as that continues to be the way of things, all the lawsuits in the world won't make illegal the trade go away.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
We have a Canon printer at the house for school stuff, the Canon cartridges are $44 a piece (or so) for it.

The Chinesium ones are $29.99 for all four colours plus an extra black.

As long as that continues to be the way of things, all the lawsuits in the world won't make illegal the trade go away.
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Don't you love when a single ink refill costs more than the whole color printer did?

alxlwson said:
My FIL is an EE/QE at Lexmark HQ, up the road. He said the big reason this came about was because these reman carts were fucking up printers, and they were having to eat warranty repairs.
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You forgot to mention when the manufacturer starts subcontracting out the remanufacturing of toner cartridges which end up with lots of substandard bits and yet still falsely labels them as new. This is becoming a problem with my office's main upright Samsung copier/printer. When it broke, the technician come out to repair the printer and showed how our OEM cartridge was not using original spec parts. The technician indicated this was common with Samsung, HP, and other brands as a means to cut "legacy" costs of even higher end printers ($3-5K for a black and white upright) that were about five years old or older and "encourage" end users to buy new hardware even though the old printers would otherwise still work, playing on enhancing end user aggravation with repeated repair calls from fixing toner cartridge (which would then spread to toner feeder and fuser parts) related problems.

The replacement "OEM" cartridge bought and shipped directly from Samsung also had non-spec parts and worse fitment than cartridges from when the printer was new.
 
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