Xbox Series X GPU is better than any Navi GPU released so far

Derangel said:
That will never happen. The chiplets would still be too big, run too hot, and cost too much to work. Not to mention AMD doesn't want to do multi-GPU anymore. They've completely abandoned it.
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I've said this before but chiplet cores in a GPU is not the same as multi-GPU.
 
Derangel said:
Read the post I was replying to.
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Well I do find it unlikely these SOC... or even later SOC end up with "2 GPU chiplets" it isn't impossible. Its not multi GPU in the same way a 3900/50 or Epyc with mulitple CPU chiplets isn't 2 CPUs. It does mean things need to operate via infinity fabric... which posses some problems I'm sure but it wouldn't be like old dual card tiled rendering or anything... considering the controller->chiplet design its going to have to use IF anyway. 2 GPU chiplets would/should be invisible to the software in the same way Zen 2 chiplets are. Software talks to the controller chip... which also talks to the system and graphics ram so really talking to 2 different chiplets via IF shouldn't be any more a hit to performance then talking to 1.

What I find much more likely ... is a 3 chiplet solution CPU GPU and RT chiplets. There is no requirement for RT hardware to be on the same bit of silicon as the GPU CUs.

Basically it comes down to cost. It clearly would bring costs up from the point of view of having a third chiplet to produce. However vs say a monolitic 2060 or something it should also shoot yields way up. Its also possible that the RT chiplet would actually be pretty basic, and there for fairly cheap. Split off from all the other GPU bits... the tensor like function units required to do the Matrix math calculations would probably not be that complicated and in comparsion be a much smaller die. Zen 2 as an example is only a 88mm chip meaning they are fabbing aprox 200 CPUs per waffer and reports are 7nm wafers are turning out around 90% yields on those. So 180 working Zen 2 chips per wafer which means they cost AMD less then $40 give or take a little bit. If a tensor like math co processor chiplet gomes in at half the size say 44nm they could easily be turning out 360 working parts per wafer with a cost of only 20 or so bucks.

I guess it comes down to how realistic it is to split those bits off into a chiplet. I believe there is no reason that wouldn't work just fine. So if Sony and MS can add RT for $25-30 bucks after AMD markup that seems pretty realistic.
 
Derangel said:
The die size of the 7nm Navi in the 5700 XT is 251 mm2. So in the span of a year they're somehow going to go from that to something capable of fitting into an APU, is significantly stronger, contains some kind of ray tracing hardware, has lower enough power requirements for the system to maintain 300w, can actually be cooled with a heatsink and fans, AND is cheap enough in order for a console to be released at $500?
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How large do you think gpu in xbox one x is?
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/xbox-one-x-gpu.c2977
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-590.c3322

Scorpio similar in performance to an rx580 which is 232mm on 12nm...scorpio in xb one x is 16nm, so arguably taking up as much real estate as a 5700xt if not more.

Don't know why people are arguing this, it's RDNA second gen. It's launching in ONE year. How is it unreasonable to expect it to perform around the 2070/2080 level when the 5700xt already comes very close and it the first generation of RDNA?
 
sabrewolf732 said:
How large do you think gpu in xbox one x is?
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/xbox-one-x-gpu.c2977
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-590.c3322

Scorpio similar in performance to an rx580 which is 232mm on 12nm...scorpio in xb one x is 16nm, so arguably taking up as much real estate as a 5700xt if not more.

Don't know why people are arguing this, it's RDNA second gen. It's launching in ONE year. How is it unreasonable to expect it to perform around the 2070/2080 level when the 5700xt already comes very close and it the first generation of RDNA?
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Lol. That's not the size of the GPU. That's the size of the entire APU. The X doesn't have a dedicated GPU.

Who's doubting that RNDA2 itself will be stronger than current gen Navi? That's not the debate here. The doubt is shoving all of that power into an APU, being able to keep it cool enough for a console (even one the size of the XSX) AND be cheap enough to make sense in a $500 system.

Edit: People need to stop talking about when the system launches. Do you really think AMD is going to deliver chips a week prior to launch? No. They're going to need to start getting shit out to Sony and MS likely within 4-5 months at most. The APU is likely finalized at this point or very close to it.
 
sabrewolf732 said:
How large do you think gpu in xbox one x is?
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/xbox-one-x-gpu.c2977
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-590.c3322

Scorpio similar in performance to an rx580 which is 232mm on 12nm...scorpio in xb one x is 16nm, so arguably taking up as much real estate as a 5700xt if not more.

Don't know why people are arguing this, it's RDNA second gen. It's launching in ONE year. How is it unreasonable to expect it to perform around the 2070/2080 level when the 5700xt already comes very close and it the first generation of RDNA?
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Chiplets will shave a ton of die size of GPUs as well... as they did with CPUs.

A Zen+ chip is 212.97mm .... a zen 2 chiplet is 88mm.

GPUs also have memory controllers and other output bits that can be moved to inexpensive controller chips. I would imagine these new APUs will have one controller chip taking care of memory and output... while the GPU chiplet(s) will be nothing but CU complexes, just like the zen 2 chiplets have nothing but CPU cores.
 
I don't believe that. If it was the best, it would already be selling for the PC platform to battle Nvidia.
 
Krenum said:
I don't believe that. If it was the best, it would already be selling for the PC platform to battle Nvidia.
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These don't ship for almost a year yet. At best if they have any chips in hand they are first gen samples.

And well ya the next gen APUs are going to be very compelling. As it is the 3400G is a decent low cost 1080p gaming part. No doubt AMD will be selling a less customized version of these chips as 4400 or 5400g parts. Very possible they change the market on the low end.
 
ChadD said:
These don't ship for almost a year yet. At best if they have any chips in hand they are first gen samples.

And well ya the next gen APUs are going to be very compelling. As it is the 3400G is a decent low cost 1080p gaming part. No doubt AMD will be selling a less customized version of these chips as 4400 or 5400g parts. Very possible they change the market on the low end.
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Why do you think they'd only have first gen samples ready? They need to start mass producing and delivering the final chips in a handful of months.
 
I can see it happening. It would be a bigger jump than the Xbox One X was when it launched but the Xbox One X was an absolute beast spec wise & that system had several shortcomings. Mainly the CPU. They've had more time to spec out this upcoming console than they did with the Xbox One X & seeing how that console delivered & still is, I can see the next platform having a 12TF part.
 
Derangel said:
Why do you think they'd only have first gen samples ready? They need to start mass producing and delivering the final chips in a handful of months.
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These don't ship until Nov 20 2020. That isn't exactly next week. Assuming Sony is expecting to stock pile units in early October... that is still 10 months away. AMD wasn't turning out zen 2 samples 10 months early.... from what I remember the earliest gen one samples where stamped sometime around 8-10 months from launch. So they may have a few of these but they would be early gen samples at this point, most likely still a good ways from production chips.
 
ChadD said:
These don't ship until Nov 20 2020. That isn't exactly next week. Assuming Sony is expecting to stock pile units in early October... that is still 10 months away. AMD wasn't turning out zen 2 samples 10 months early.... from what I remember the earliest gen one samples where stamped sometime around 8-10 months from launch. So they may have a few of these but they would be early gen samples at this point.
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From what I know (and I could be wrong) it takes several months to build up stock for launch. So Sony and MS might want these parts within the next half year or so. Something I forgot, but they also need to get final dev kits out sometime before launch. Though they don't need more than a couple handfuls of chips for that so those could be produced with some of the first run of final chips. If they do have 9-10 months before they need to get mass production and shipping fully in gear that would give them what 6-8ish months to reach finalization? If that's the case then, yeah, maybe they can work some magic. I still think size, heat, and cost are going to be serious limitations.

However, let's just go with the rumor for a sec: If AMD can produce a small/chiplet Navi capable of around 2080 performance inside of an 8c/16t APU for a couple/few hundred dollars a pop then it will be very interesting to see what RDNA2 will look like in full PC GPU form and what RDNA2 APUs could end up being whenever they release (2021?).
 
Derangel said:
From what I know (and I could be wrong) it takes several months to build up stock for launch. So Sony and MS might want these parts within the next half year or so. Something I forgot, but they also need to get final dev kits out sometime before launch. Though they don't need more than a couple handfuls of chips for that so those could be produced with some of the first run of final chips. If they do have 9-10 months before they need to get mass production and shipping fully in gear that would give them what 6-8ish months to reach finalization? If that's the case then, yeah, maybe they can work some magic. I still think size, heat, and cost are going to be serious limitations.

However, let's just go with the rumor for a sec: If AMD can produce a small/chiplet Navi capable of around 2080 performance inside of an 8c/16t APU for a couple/few hundred dollars a pop then it will be very interesting to see what RDNA2 will look like in full PC GPU form and what RDNA2 APUs could end up being whenever they release (2021?).
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You could be correct... no doubt Sony and MS don't want to get final parts weeks before launch. I think 2 months would be about right so Octoberish. You may well be correct. Being Zen 2 based we know the CPU is no big deal those they are fabbing in great numbers at if the reports are true great yeilds... the new thing they have to get fabbed is the Navi2 and the controller chips. The controller chip is likely not a big deal it could be fabbing it its final version already assuming they are going 12nm on it as with Zen 2. So all the parts are already production ready accept the RDNA2 chiplet. So who knows you could be correct perhaps they have been through a few engineering generations already. Speculation either way I guess.

Yes these SOC are going to be game changers. The promise of the Zen 2 chips wasn't just that it was going to allow AMD to make cost effective many core parts. It was always that they where going to start including more then just CPUs on the packages.

We know from their PR work NV is considering these things a threat. If they can even get 2060 level GPU + RT hardware onto the same package as a 8 core zen 2 chip. Its going to be game changing for the GPU industry. That bread and butter mid range is going to have to drop in pricing cause anyone in the market for a $200-300 GPU for a PC doing little else but gaming, is going to be hard pressed to justify the current pricing if a $200 or even $300 APU gives them 8 core + 2060 level performance. That is about what I am expecting out of these... I doubt highly we get 2080ti performance... but 2060 complete with Ray tracing. I can see that. But hey if they can really push 2080ti performance on a SOC that might just be market breaking... I can't imagine they will be that good but who knows. I built my daughter a 2200g based system last year and was shocked that it could basically game at 1080p medium settings with 70fps all day long in 90% of games, and that is under Linux. If AMD is really able to sell a 5400G or something with 8 cores and 2060 ish level graphics even if it cost 3x what they are selling 3400gs for they will be game changing.
 
ChadD said:
You could be correct... no doubt Sony and MS don't want to get final parts weeks before launch. I think 2 months would be about right so Octoberish. You may well be correct. Being Zen 2 based we know the CPU is no big deal those they are fabbing in great numbers at if the reports are true great yeilds... the new thing they have to get fabbed is the Navi2 and the controller chips. The controller chip is likely not a big deal it could be fabbing it its final version already assuming they are going 12nm on it as with Zen 2. So all the parts are already production ready accept the RDNA2 chiplet. So who knows you could be correct perhaps they have been through a few engineering generations already. Speculation either way I guess.

Yes these SOC are going to be game changers. The promise of the Zen 2 chips wasn't just that it was going to allow AMD to make cost effective many core parts. It was always that they where going to start including more then just CPUs on the packages.

We know from their PR work NV is considering these things a threat. If they can even get 2060 level GPU + RT hardware onto the same package as a 8 core zen 2 chip. Its going to be game changing for the GPU industry. That bread and butter mid range is going to have to drop in pricing cause anyone in the market for a $200-300 GPU for a PC doing little else but gaming, is going to be hard pressed to justify the current pricing if a $200 or even $300 APU gives them 8 core + 2060 level performance. That is about what I am expecting out of these... I doubt highly we get 2080ti performance... but 2060 complete with Ray tracing. I can see that. But hey if they can really push 2080ti performance on a SOC that might just be market breaking... I can't imagine they will be that good but who knows. I built my daughter a 2200g based system last year and was shocked that it could basically game at 1080p medium settings with 70fps all day long in 90% of games, and that is under Linux. If AMD is really able to sell a 5400G or something with 8 cores and 2060 ish level graphics even if it cost 3x what they are selling 3400gs for they will be game changing.
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If they can get 2060-level performance (with or without RT) in an APU I think that would push me to build a nice little second PC for my bedroom or something and I don't even need a bedroom PC but that kind of performance in an APU would be that exciting.
 
NKD said:
navi TF is not same as gcn tf. If Navi wasn’t out already I would see your point. Now that it’s already out they have no reason to say it’s 12tf compared to gcn lol. That just is dumb.
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That's the point, Navi doesn't need 12Tf to beat GCN 12Tf, the actual quote from Spencer was "when you do the math it's twice the power", the expression can mean that it is twice the effective output and is more likely than a gpu that would equal a 2080 from Nvidia, alongside ram, ssd, cpu and 1 controller being sold for less than the price of the 2080 alone.

Don't delude yourself reading marketing expressions in the most fantastic way possible, look for the down to earth meaning and accept it, at this point people of this forum should know the score.


That said whoever is sad that it will only be 5700 XT like is honestly dumb. Targeting fixed hardware with smart reconstruction techniques the newest consoles will deliver unique experiences.

Heck, check out a base ps4 and try to admit that you expected what it could deliver with a 7850 like gpu + jaguar cpu.

Edit to add :
The simple addition of the extra raytracing acceleration logic would be enough to make it more advanced than any current Navi offer.
 
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Derangel said:
Lol. That's not the size of the GPU. That's the size of the entire APU. The X doesn't have a dedicated GPU.

Who's doubting that RNDA2 itself will be stronger than current gen Navi? That's not the debate here. The doubt is shoving all of that power into an APU, being able to keep it cool enough for a console (even one the size of the XSX) AND be cheap enough to make sense in a $500 system.

Edit: People need to stop talking about when the system launches. Do you really think AMD is going to deliver chips a week prior to launch? No. They're going to need to start getting shit out to Sony and MS likely within 4-5 months at most. The APU is likely finalized at this point or very close to it.
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Derangel said:
Lol. That's not the size of the GPU. That's the size of the entire APU. The X doesn't have a dedicated GPU.

Who's doubting that RNDA2 itself will be stronger than current gen Navi? That's not the debate here. The doubt is shoving all of that power into an APU, being able to keep it cool enough for a console (even one the size of the XSX) AND be cheap enough to make sense in a $500 system.

Edit: People need to stop talking about when the system launches. Do you really think AMD is going to deliver chips a week prior to launch? No. They're going to need to start getting shit out to Sony and MS likely within 4-5 months at most. The APU is likely finalized at this point or very close to it.
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Dude, simple deduction. Rx590 is 232mm, Scorpio is 370mm, that leaves a fair bit of room for the cpu which is likely tiny. Bristolridge at 28nm (huge) with integrated graphics is like 250mm.

You don't think rdna2 at 7nm and ryzen at 7nm in separate packages is feasible vs. the monolithic Scorpio at 370mm at 16nm?
 
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Something tells me cooling is not going to be an issue this generation, primarily out of necessity. I’m not sure of the design of the Xbox Series X but if it has two 120mm fans (one on top, one on bottom) and there is a large heatsink that takes up a lot of that internal space I’d say it looks pretty robust.

I’m not sure obviously but that’s what it looks like. Maybe one 120 mm on top with vents on the bottom. It’s vastly better than what they do now and the size/shape suggest a large heatsink.

Sonys developer kits show similar cooling capacity.

I expect them both to have Zen 2+ with a GPU a little above 5700XT (2080 non Super) with RT capabilities. It’s not going to have 2080 Ti performance. It doesn’t need to, some of the games they have now on current gen are impossible on a PC built with a 300 dollar budget.

In fact, I would bet after these launch you will see a fairly dramatic change in the PC space in some fashion for the I/O aspects alone. Maybe it’s ReRAM, maybe it’s something else but it will be interesting to see how developers port games to PC designed around “no load times”. Some games will just have load times no big deal.

But from what I understand, a powerful I/O setup changes a lot more than just no load times. Actual gameplay could rely on it.
 
Alot of arguing about the best game experience. Here are two irrefutable facts:
1. PC will always be a better gaming experience regardless of cost.
2. Console will be the best bang for the buck, but will never out perform a gaming dedicated PC.

I have a gaming PC and an Xbox One.

Edit: fixed misspelled words.
 
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sabrewolf732 said:
Dude, simple deduction. Rx590 is 232mm, Scorpio is 370mm, that leaves a fair bit of room for the cpu which is likely tiny. Bristolridge at 28nm (huge) with integrated graphics is like 250mm.

You don't think rdna2 at 7nm and ryzen at 7nm in separate packages is feasible vs. the monolithic Scorpio at 370mm at 16nm?
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Scorpio Engine is 359 mm² total. The GPU takes up about 45-50% of the die space, meaning the GPU is about 162-180 mm².

upload_2019-12-30_13-34-20.png
 
Armenius said:
Scorpio Engine is 359 mm² total. The GPU takes up about 45-50% of the die space, meaning the GPU is about 162-180 mm².

View attachment 211890[/QUOTE
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The image you posted looks like gpu is taking up far more than half of die real estate.
"More components now fit in the same area of the silicon and four clusters of Radeon compute units dominate. The GPU block sits to the left, with two, much smaller quad-core CPU clusters to the right, occupying a fraction of the overall area. There's a total of 4MB of L2 cache."

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

The gpu dominates the die according to the image you posted.

Also, Zen 2 is tiny at 80mm (io is large, but manf. on a cheap process).
 
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sabrewolf732 said:
Dude, simple deduction. Rx590 is 232mm, Scorpio is 370mm, that leaves a fair bit of room for the cpu which is likely tiny. Bristolridge at 28nm (huge) with integrated graphics is like 250mm.

You don't think rdna2 at 7nm and ryzen at 7nm in separate packages is feasible vs. the monolithic Scorpio at 370mm at 16nm?
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I have doubts (especially as far as cost goes) but I will say that I hope I'm wrong. A console with graphics power near a 2080 would be incredible. Plus, it could mean some amazing things for PC APUs down the road and I would love to see that.
 
sabrewolf732 said:
The image you posted looks like gpu is taking up far more than half of die real estate.
"More components now fit in the same area of the silicon and four clusters of Radeon compute units dominate. The GPU block sits to the left, with two, much smaller quad-core CPU clusters to the right, occupying a fraction of the overall area. There's a total of 4MB of L2 cache."

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

The gpu dominates the die according to the image you posted.

Also, Zen 2 is tiny at 80mm (io is large, but manf. on a cheap process).
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I took pixel area measurements and the die space is 50% of the total area if I include other components not explicitly marked that are probably part of the GPU hardware. An APU die has more components than a traditional standalone processor so the CPU and GPU can talk to each other.

For comparison, the CPU cluster is taking up 20% of the area (72 mm²) and the memory controllers take up 17% (61 mm²).
 
The main upside will be Console developers learning to properly use 16 x86 threads to squeeze out performance, especially if they are not clocked particularly high. That will mean PC games will rapidly become much more demanding on CPUs.
 
Why would chiplets cost too much to work? they're doing it on CPUs. Been doing it for 2 gens, now. The whole thing with chiplets in CPU is that its a cheap way to get more cores. The question mark was, would it still have good overall performance? Yes, yes it does. So....why can't they figure that out on a GPU? And if you bin the chiplets, you can keep overall power down. I feel like people are thinking too literally about current GPU designs.

I think the whole point here is that we may finally have the next gen GPU which the industry has been slacking on. AMD couldn't do it on their own. Nvidia has been sitting on its hands because it didn't have to do anything else. AMD is now being helped by MS and Sony, because its in all of their interests.

Now, I'm not saying YOU GUYS THIS IS IT FOR SURE. ITS GONNA BE AMAZING. I'm just saying, the situation is ripe for something to happen and I won't be surprised if it turns out amazing. But....I also won't be surprised if it turns out to basically be a more power efficient 5700xt 2.0 traditional design, with ray tracing tacked on.


Heat is always an issue but, looking at the design of series X: yeah, they didn't completely figure out the heat issue. So, MS designed a box which looks to be setup for a larger heatsink with a regular fan. Rather than a turbine. And maybe even a direct left/right airflow. Rather than top down. These things are gonna use some juice and dump some heat. Until sales and unit costs can catchup with R&D for the slim version two years later.
Armenius said:
Scorpio Engine is 359 mm² total. The GPU takes up about 45-50% of the die space, meaning the GPU is about 162-180 mm².

View attachment 211890
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Who knows, what they put into the consoles may not even be a "standard" package. There really isn't any reason for it to be. AMD made this monstrosity for Intel:
Intel-AMD-APU-3-870x489.jpg


I wouldn't be surprised if what goes into the consoles is a larger package. Like Threadripper sized or maybe even something more strange.

As far as the "leaked" specs: Lets assume they are basically true---That Xbox Series X will be that much more powerful. Then, their ITX-like box design makes sense for cooling. And I'm betting that the supposedly less powerful Sony APU will work in at least a little more traditional styled, lower profile console casing.

There's also a rumored less powerful Xbox, as well. Which will likely look completely different, lower profile.
 
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I bet they would be super happy to put a chunk of NVME in the package to store all the secure shit.

Anything of chip can be sniffed far more easily. Their priority with a console is building a secure system without physical control of the hardware.

A bunch of delicate shit under a soldered lid keeps the modchips at bay.
 
SomeoneElse said:
Alot of arguing about the best game experience. Here are two irrefutable facts:
1. PC will always be a better gaming experience regardless of cost.
2. Console will be the best bang for the buck, but will never out perform a gaming dedicated PC.

I have a gaming PC and an Xbox One.

Edit: fixed misspelled words.
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1. This is hugely debatable. Unless user experience =/= gaming experience. Setting up a living room PC is not exactly idiot proof for the controller only experience. Even with Big Box or Steam Big Picture.
 
next-Jin said:
1. This is hugely debatable. Unless user experience =/= gaming experience. Setting up a living room PC is not exactly idiot proof for the controller only experience. Even with Big Box or Steam Big Picture.
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So you're saying gamers are lazy and incompetent?
 
ChadD said:
Really when the PS4 launched... you could build a better gaming PC for 500 bucks ? I don't know that's debatable. Sure in 2013 you could buy a 780ti or a 290x... but at a $500 price point. I don't know about that.

I would expect the PS5 will be the fastest game playing machine for $500 for 6 months to a year after its launch.
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PS5 is unlikely to be $500 (unless there is some sort of Trump tax)

PS4 launched at $400 & so did PS4 pro

All indications are that PS5 is targetting the same $400

Sony knows what it is doing. Expect a 5700ish gpu with some forward looking features from RDNA2 paired witb 16GB gddr6 ram & (removable) SSD
 
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Derangel said:
The die size of the 7nm Navi in the 5700 XT is 251 mm2. So in the span of a year they're somehow going to go from that to something capable of fitting into an APU, is significantly stronger, contains some kind of ray tracing hardware, has lower enough power requirements for the system to maintain 300w, can actually be cooled with a heatsink and fans, AND is cheap enough in order for a console to be released at $500?
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It is possible that Microsoft has a different strategy this time.

They are now targetting simultaneous game release on PC & Xbox along with game pass subscription. So there is a lot of focus on continuous revenue from service rather than one time revenue from hardware

Also Phil Spencer (Xbox head) seems to be planning on 2 model strategy, a Xbox X & less powerful Xbox S

The Xbox S is expected to have hardware as powerful as a PS4 pro & with optimizations(& without ray tracing) might match X1X in performance. Going by current price of X1X, the Xbox S might come in at a price point of $250-$350

By the size of the Xbox X all indications are it will be a huge chip inside. To manage the power consumption Microsoft might go in with lesser frequency & for cooling they have the tower design.

Price would be a variable tho. An Xbox X with 2TB SSD might be priced $600-$700 I think and it would be as powerful as any standalone $600 gpu that you can buy next year
 
Derangel said:
I have doubts (especially as far as cost goes) but I will say that I hope I'm wrong. A console with graphics power near a 2080 would be incredible. Plus, it could mean some amazing things for PC APUs down the road and I would love to see that.
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A zen 2/3 cpu paired with Navi 12 CUs might be as powerful as a PS4 pro ( 1050 ti ? )
 
Derangel said:
Lol. Tweaktown is becoming the new WCCF. I call BUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIIIT.
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They've been pretty awful for a while. I swear these 2 publications will use anything as a credible source. Like reddit posts for example.........
 
Armenius said:
So you're saying gamers are lazy and incompetent?
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For people in the market for these consoles? Absolutely. If you’re saying it’s “always better” then by definition it’s “better” of an experience as a couch/HDTV experience for everyone in that category.

That’s just not true to anyone who is honest with themselves. Yeah once setup it’s incredible but that mom who is buying her kid a PS5 is not going to go through that huge PIA.
 
Armenius said:
So you're saying gamers are lazy and incompetent?
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He's right, though. Show me which Linux/Windows/MacOS desktop environment can be at least adequately navigated with just a gaming controller / remote control that's not a keyboard + mouse combo

To add some context: I spent two years working on a cable tv application. There are all kinds of things you have to consider when all you have is 4 directions and an OK button. There could be more but everything has to work with just those 5 keys.

The more features you add, the crazier it gets. It's more complex than just building a kb/mouse app.
 
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dgz said:
He's right, though. Show me which Linux/Windows/MacOS desktop environment can be at least adequately navigated with just a gaming controller / remote control that's not a keyboard + mouse combo

To add some context: I spent two years working on a cable tv application. There are all kinds of things you have to consider when all you have is 4 directions and an OK button. There could be more but everything has to work with just those 5 keys.

The more features you add, the crazier it gets. It's more complex than just building a kb/mouse app.
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I’m coming at it from a Gaming HTPC and my setup is a LG OLED 65” sitting 8 ft away.

I specifically built a Node 202 setup for the living room, had to mod the case for RTX 2080Ti heat requirements (cut out a 240mm hole in the GPU compartment then use a black filter magnet on top), took the stock fans off the GPU, added Noctua high air pressure fans under GPU, 9700k on an ASRock Z390 Phantom ITX with 95w TDP limit with a Kraveen CPU cooler and Noctua slim.

Now never mind building an actual native 4K mITX setup that mimics consoles. The hard part is getting it to play nice with a controller. Auto Login, custom tasks through Windows for Speedfan and MSI Afterburner, setting up BigBox and then having to actually install all the games and emulators and customizing everyone of them for set it and forget it with a PS4 controller (which also has to use DS4windows which needs to be configured).

And after everything is done, you still have to account for odds and ends that still require M/KB every once in awhile.

Yes it’s awesome, but it’s not even remotely close to plugging in my PS4 and turning it on to play a game. That’s not a better experience for ease of use or couch play.

I could go into the amount of couch co-op games on PC vs consoles but why bother.
 
next-Jin said:
For people in the market for these consoles? Absolutely. If you’re saying it’s “always better” then by definition it’s “better” of an experience as a couch/HDTV experience for everyone in that category.

That’s just not true to anyone who is honest with themselves. Yeah once setup it’s incredible but that mom who is buying her kid a PS5 is not going to go through that huge PIA.
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I think you are confusing what is meant by my statement. If you buy a PC for gaming its not to hook up a TV to watch movies. I talking as meant for gaming setup. The cost of that is way more than a console and that will ALWAYS be a better gaming experience.....The people buying HTPCs are not really buying the PC to game on, its an entertainment experience not a gaming experience so they get an ok gaming system and an entertainment center.

There is a reason that consoles are using PC parts to run their core systems.
 
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