Xbox Series X GPU is better than any Navi GPU released so far

HAL_404

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"My industry sources have said that the Navi 20 GPU will be a "proper 4K" GPU, and that the semi-custom design chips for the new consoles when added with GDDR6 memory, technologies like Variable Rate Shading (which we're going to go into detail on in a future article) and the fact Microsoft and Sony can finely tune every single part of their console from hardware to software -- the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost).

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/69398/xbox-series-gpu-better-navi-released-far/index.html" ~TweakTown

the part that caught my attention was "the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost)."

add to that the fact that consoles have lots of great games, no hardware set up challenges, etc it will be interesting to see how gamers wind up spending their hard earned cash over the next year or three
 

Mega6

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it will be interesting to see how gamers wind up spending their hard earned cash over the next year or three
Not on a $2K video card or a $600 Console.
I don't believe that for a second. If AMD was able to produce a GPU that can perform like that at such a price point, then they would be shoving a discrete AIB version for PCs out the door to bury their competitors.
That's right, you have to wait for RDNA2 cards.
 

Derangel

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It's rumored to be 12 tflop vs current Navi ~10, plus hardware rt. Why is this difficult to believe? This is rdna 2. I'm more interested in how they got it in a ~300 watt power envelope for the total package..
I'll believe it when I see it. You really think AMD can shove something stronger than a 5700 XT into an APU? And, even if they could, what makes you think it would be cheap enough for these consoles to hit the rumored $500 price point?
 

NKD

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I'll believe it when I see it. You really think AMD can shove something stronger than a 5700 XT into an APU? And, even if they could, what makes you think it would be cheap enough for these consoles to hit the rumored $500 price point?
The parts aren't even out yet and you are looking at late 2020 for this. So why is it so hard to believe lol. Its very custom process and you are forgetting that the CPU base clocks are going to be lower as they will be relying heavily on IPC uplift not just clock speeds. We already know how efficient the zen 2 chips can be up to certain clocks and voltage and you can easily get 8 core above 3ghz all below 65w. The chip is probably 65w for CPU that leaves over 225w for GPU portion. Now top that with RDNA2 improvements and these APUs might actually be in 7nm+ to further improve efficiency but I don't even think that is required. Now I made a mistake, I shouldn't ven call these APUs. These are semi custom solutions so not your traditional low powered APU.
 

NKD

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It's rumored to be 12 tflop vs current Navi ~10, plus hardware rt. Why is this difficult to believe? This is rdna 2. I'm more interested in how they got it in a ~300 watt power envelope for the total package..
easy. CPUs are likely 65w chips and that leavs 235w for the GPU to be around 300w. Its not hard to believe. Zen 2 can easy do 3ghz+ on 8 cores for 65w. Remember its very efficient at certain clocks and voltages and you can easily tweak it to be under 65w.
 

Derangel

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The parts aren't even out yet and you are looking at late 2020 for this. So why is it so hard to believe lol. Its very custom process and you are forgetting that the CPU base clocks are going to be lower as they will be relying heavily on IPC uplift not just clock speeds. We already know how efficient the zen 2 chips can be up to certain clocks and voltage and you can easily get 8 core above 3ghz all below 65w. The chip is probably 65w for CPU that leaves over 225w for GPU portion. Now top that with RDNA2 improvements and these APUs might actually be in 7nm+ to further improve efficiency but I don't even think that is required. Now I made a mistake, I shouldn't ven call these APUs. These are semi custom solutions so not your traditional low powered APU.
Late 2020? AMD will need to have these APUs done and ready to deliver, en masse, by early to mid 2020. Console stock takes several months to build up to launch.
 

Revdarian

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*12Tf is the equivalent most likely in GCN, which in reality gives us a regular 5700 XT ish gpu. Thinking that it is 12Tf naturally at that rumored package price is wishful thinking at best, don't fall on that hype and you won't get disappointed with the reality.

A 5700 - 5700 XT is still a sweet deal with everything else that rounds up the package, yes later you will be able to create more powerful desktops for the price, but whenever it comes out it will be hard to beat in the bang - bucks - simplicity level which is what average Joe cares about.
 

NKD

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Late 2020? AMD will need to have these APUs done and ready to deliver, en masse, by early to mid 2020. Console stock takes several months to build up to launch.
Hey I was mentioning when the consoles themselves will be out. Regardless my point still stands that they can have it at 300w easy for both cpu and GPU.
 

NKD

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*12Tf is the equivalent most likely in GCN, which in reality gives us a regular 5700 XT ish gpu. Thinking that it is 12Tf naturally at that rumored package price is wishful thinking at best, don't fall on that hype and you won't get disappointed with the reality.

A 5700 - 5700 XT is still a sweet deal with everything else that rounds up the package, yes later you will be able to create more powerful desktops for the price, but whenever it comes out it will be hard to beat in the bang - bucks - simplicity level which is what average Joe cares about.
navi TF is not same as gcn tf. If Navi wasn’t out already I would see your point. Now that it’s already out they have no reason to say it’s 12tf compared to gcn lol. That just is dumb.
 

Dayaks

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I am highly skeptical they are cooling a 300W APU and it’s sustaining 12TF just on the graphics....
 

jfreund

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This kind of BS floats around before every console generation. "ZOMG!!! This PlayboxTWO5 is going to be so much faster than PC hardware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Then the consoles launch, and are on par with a low-midrange PC. Then a year goes by, the console is the same, and PC has gotten faster.
 

DejaWiz

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That's right, you have to wait for RDNA2 cards.
You really think that AMD will have such a "magic" RDNA2 GPU that will wipe the floor with all the competition at such a low price point ($200-300)?

I'm quite apprehensive to such a notion.

If I were buying a GPU today, then the RX5700XT would be near the top of my short list. But that's in the $420+ price range, and isn't wiping the floor with some of the competition's offerings.

I doubt that a mid-tier RDNA2, like what will be featured in the next XBox, is going to own all performance figures.
 

sabrewolf732

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You really think that AMD will have such a "magic" RDNA2 GPU that will wipe the floor with all the competition at such a low price point ($200-300)?

I'm quite apprehensive to such a notion.

If I were buying a GPU today, then the RX5700XT would be near the top of my short list. But that's in the $420+ price range, and isn't wiping the floor with some of the competition's offerings.

I doubt that a mid-tier RDNA2, like what will be featured in the next XBox, is going to own all performance figures.
It's not owning anything.

It's going from slightly belower 2070 super performance to 2080 performance approx 1.5 years after rdna 1 launched. Not super hard to believe. Imo, rdna 2 will launch this summer for desktop.
 
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Mega6

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You really think that AMD will have such a "magic" RDNA2 GPU that will wipe the floor with all the competition at such a low price point ($200-300)?

I'm quite apprehensive to such a notion.

If I were buying a GPU today, then the RX5700XT would be near the top of my short list. But that's in the $420+ price range, and isn't wiping the floor with some of the competition's offerings.

I doubt that a mid-tier RDNA2, like what will be featured in the next XBox, is going to own all performance figures.
I never said anything of the sort. You did. I just said you will have to wait for RDNA2. We can already see how AMD is going to handle the APU/Console/GPU field by the patents already in place. Variable Resolution, Shading. Performance is only one metric. HOW you render opens a new avenue.
 

DejaWiz

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I never said anything of the sort. You did. I just said you will have to wait for RDNA2. We can already see how AMD is going to handle the APU/Console/GPU field by the patents already in place. Variable Resolution, Shading. Performance is only one metric. HOW you render opens a new avenue.
You're using my negating of a notion to speak your words vicariously through me, as if I am the one that affirmed what will be the future of AMDs product offerings and price points.

You even backed up your vicariousness by stating that the patents and rendering methodology affirm this.
 

DejaWiz

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It's not owning anything.

It's going from slightly belower 2070 super performance to 2080 performance approx 1.5 years after rdna 1 launched. Not super hard to believe. Imo, rdna 2 will launy this summer for desktop.
That's exactly my point...the article states "the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost)".
No, it won't. Never has that happened, and it never will.
 

Mega6

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You're using my negating of a notion to speak your words vicariously through me, as if I am the one that affirmed what will be the future of AMDs product offerings and price points.

You even backed up your vicariousness by stating that the patents and rendering methodology affirm this.
Learn the difference between "Performance" as quoted by you and "Rendering Methodology" as put forth by myself.
Shouldn't be too difficult.
 

ChadD

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I'll believe it when I see it. You really think AMD can shove something stronger than a 5700 XT into an APU? And, even if they could, what makes you think it would be cheap enough for these consoles to hit the rumored $500 price point?
Its simple.... 7nm+ and chiplets. But mostly chiplets. These are zen 2 meaning the CPU is chiplet... there for the GPU is going to have to be as well.

These are going to perform an order of magnitude better then previous SOC designs that had to squeeze far to much into one hunk of silicon.

Yields will be much better then traditional SOC with multiple points of failure, and that decoupling will allow them to build a more traditional GPU. It will be on the same package but it won't really be the same die. Expect many more CUs vs previous SOCs as well as room for things like RT hardware on a SOC design.

These will be the least SOC like SOC we have ever seen. The PC master race will move on to Zen 3 and RDNA2/Ampere cards around the same time... so sure at the higher end PCs will still be superior. Low end PCs won't catch up till the following spring when AMD starts selling chiplet based SOC with RDNA2. If AMD gets a 8 core / RDNA AM4 part out.... I have a feeling the market for low end GPUs will look very different. At least until 4K monitors start selling for 1080p prices.
 

KarsusTG

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I dunno, I have an Xbox One X and it often struggles and/or freezes with diablo 3 which has a gtx 260 as it's recommended card. I wish venders would release recommendations based on resolution rather than 1080p.
 

ChadD

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That's exactly my point...the article states "the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost)".
No, it won't. Never has that happened, and it never will.
Really when the PS4 launched... you could build a better gaming PC for 500 bucks ? I don't know that's debatable. Sure in 2013 you could buy a 780ti or a 290x... but at a $500 price point. I don't know about that.

I would expect the PS5 will be the fastest game playing machine for $500 for 6 months to a year after its launch.
 

Derangel

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Its simple.... 7nm+ and chiplets. But mostly chiplets. These are zen 2 meaning the CPU is chiplet... there for the GPU is going to have to be as well.

These are going to perform an order of magnitude better then previous SOC designs that had to squeeze far to much into one hunk of silicon.

Yields will be much better then traditional SOC with multiple points of failure, and that decoupling will allow them to build a more traditional GPU. It will be on the same package but it won't really be the same die. Expect many more CUs vs previous SOCs as well as room for things like RT hardware on a SOC design.

These will be the least SOC like SOC we have ever seen. The PC master race will move on to Zen 3 and RDNA2/Ampere cards around the same time... so sure at the higher end PCs will still be superior. Low end PCs won't catch up till the following spring when AMD starts selling chiplet based SOC with RDNA2. If AMD gets a 8 core / RDNA AM4 part out.... I have a feeling the market for low end GPUs will look very different. At least until 4K monitors start selling for 1080p prices.
The die size of the 7nm Navi in the 5700 XT is 251 mm2. So in the span of a year they're somehow going to go from that to something capable of fitting into an APU, is significantly stronger, contains some kind of ray tracing hardware, has lower enough power requirements for the system to maintain 300w, can actually be cooled with a heatsink and fans, AND is cheap enough in order for a console to be released at $500?
 

ChadD

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The die size of the 7nm Navi in the 5700 XT is 251 mm2. So in the span of a year they're somehow going to go from that to something capable of fitting into an APU, is significantly stronger, contains some kind of ray tracing hardware, has lower enough power requirements for the system to maintain 300w, can actually be cooled with a heatsink and fans, AND is cheap enough in order for a console to be released at $500?
Wait when did they say it would be more powerful then a 5700xt ?

They said it will be faster then any PC you could build for $500 did they not. The 5700xt is a $400 US part is it not ? Are you suggesting we will be able to build 8 core 16 thread PCs with 5500 level GPUs for $500 in a year.

Can they build a RDNA2 part that is 5500 xt level... pretty sure they will be able to yes.

Also RT hardware doesn't have to be on the same chiplet. I am not saying they for sure will be 3 chiplet parts... but it seems pretty logical that RDNA2 will be AMDs first chiplet based GPU, and if I had to guess it would be one standard chiplet and one RT chiplet. With high end PC cards potentially having 2 GPU chiplets and 1 RT chiplet. Lowest end having one GPU and not RT.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.... all I will say is NV has for some reason felt the need to start the anti RDNA2 PR really early. I have a feeling 5700xt may be actually be very possible. Chiplets are a great way to reduce cost and jack core count up on CPUs... but the real promise is adding multiple different chips into one package. My guess these console parts are going to be 3 chiplet parts... with CPU GPU and RT chiplets. The performance gains will probably be revolutionary.
 
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Derangel

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Wait when did they say it would be more powerful then a 5700xt ?

They said it will be faster then any PC you could build for $500 did they not. The 5700xt is a $400 US part is it not ? Are you suggesting we will be able to build 8 core 16 thread PCs with 5500 level GPUs for $500 in a year.

Can they build a RDNA2 part that is 5500 xt level... pretty sure they will be able to yes.

Also RT hardware doesn't have to be on the same chiplet. I am not saying they for sure will be 3 chiplet parts... but it seems pretty logical that RDNA2 will be AMDs first chiplet based GPU, and if I had to guess it would be one standard chiplet and one RT chiplet. With high end PC cards potentially having 2 GPU chiplets and 1 RT chiplet. Lowest end having one GPU and not RT.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.... all I will say is NV has for some reason felt the need to start the anti RDNA2 PR really early. I have a feeling 5700xt may be actually be very possible. Chiplets are a great way to reduce cost and jack core count up on CPUs... but the real promise is adding multiple different chips into one package. My guess these console parts are going to be 3 chiplet parts... with CPU GPU and RT chiplets. The performance gains will probably be revolutionary.
The title of the article is literally "Xbox Series X GPU is better than any Navi GPU released so far"
 

sabrewolf732

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That's exactly my point...the article states "the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost)".
No, it won't. Never has that happened, and it never will.
Yeah, that's inaccurate for sure. The closest we came to that was PS3 with a derivative of 7800gtx and the 360 with a derivative or r500. I don't think ~2080 performance is out of the realm of feasibility for rdna2
 

DejaWiz

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Really when the PS4 launched... you could build a better gaming PC for 500 bucks ? I don't know that's debatable. Sure in 2013 you could buy a 780ti or a 290x... but at a $500 price point. I don't know about that.

I would expect the PS5 will be the fastest game playing machine for $500 for 6 months to a year after its launch.

Doesn't matter if the console is freshly launched, six months old, or four years old during it's life cycle. A PC will offer a much better experience for the cost during that consoles life cycle.
 

KarsusTG

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Doesn't matter if the console is freshly launched, six months old, or four years old during it's life cycle. A PC will offer a much better experience for the cost during that consoles life cycle.
Now that I own a console, I am really not so certain. You have to make A LOT of sacrifices to get to the $500 mark. You would have to rely on finding good used hardware for cheap to get a $500 pc that can push modern 4k games at 30-60hz. Honestly, a gtx 1060 can just barely push a game at 4k if you have the game set to bare minimum specs and that is ~$200. If you spent about that on a cpu, you would end up with only $100 for the motherboard, ram, hard disk, power supply, case, cooling, and the interface (keyboard/mouse or controller) which is really really tight.
 

Derangel

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Doesn't matter if the console is freshly launched, six months old, or four years old during it's life cycle. A PC will offer a much better experience for the cost during that consoles life cycle.
Yeah, no. Not even close. The XBX has been on sale for $350. There is no $350 PC that will offer even close to the same experience. Even at the non-sale price of $500 you're not finding a PC capable of running games at the same resolutions, frame rates, and settings as either the X or the Pro.
 

thesmokingman

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That's exactly my point...the article states "the experience on consoles will be unmatched on the PC (for the cost)".
No, it won't. Never has that happened, and it never will.
We've never been able to ever match a console in performance for the same purchase price of a console especially with the last couple generations. I dunno what you are smoking dude but its too early in the day.
 

DejaWiz

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Let me rephrase: the cost of the GPU in the XBox (probably $150-250 per unit) vs the cost of the GPU for a PC. At some point during the console's long life cycle, an AIB PC GPU comes along and absolutely will give a better experience for the cost.

Does that make more sense to the point I'm trying to make?
 

Derangel

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Let me rephrase: the cost of the GPU in the XBox (probably $150-250 per unit) vs the cost of the GPU for a PC. At some point during the console's long life cycle, an AIB PC GPU comes along and absolutely will give a better experience for the cost.

Does that make more sense to the point I'm trying to make?
The entire APU probably doesn't even cost that much per unit any more. Considering MS is able to sell the XBX for $350 regularly and Sony's Pro is at $400 (often less these days) I doubt either of them are paying more than $100 per chip these days, possibly significantly less.
 

chameleoneel

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You really think that AMD will have such a "magic" RDNA2 GPU that will wipe the floor with all the competition at such a low price point ($200-300)?

I'm quite apprehensive to such a notion.

If I were buying a GPU today, then the RX5700XT would be near the top of my short list. But that's in the $420+ price range, and isn't wiping the floor with some of the competition's offerings.

I doubt that a mid-tier RDNA2, like what will be featured in the next XBox, is going to own all performance figures.
You gotta look at timelines here.

The chips in these consoles will be released about 1.3 years after the 5700XT. And R&D has been bankrolled by Sony and MS. Its very possible this could be a proper generational leap over the current GPUs. At this point, it seems to me like current Navi was a sort of back spin product, just to have something to fill out the product suite, during Zen 2's buzz period.
 

ChadD

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Let me rephrase: the cost of the GPU in the XBox (probably $150-250 per unit) vs the cost of the GPU for a PC. At some point during the console's long life cycle, an AIB PC GPU comes along and absolutely will give a better experience for the cost.

Does that make more sense to the point I'm trying to make?
You are comparing apples and oranges.

Consoles are complete systems. They are not just a GPU you plug into your old console.

Sure of course a $500 GPU is going to be better then a $500 console... but a $500 GPU requires another $500 worth of parts minimum if your building anything more then a cheap piece of crap around a mid range video card.

There is no way in 8 or 9 months you will be able to put together a 8 core Zen 2 system with 16GB of ram... SSD power supply and GPU for $500 that would be anywhere close to what the next gen consoles are going to offer. For anyone in the market for a sub $700-800 PC... the consoles are going to make way more sense. That will probably be true till at least the following xmas after its launch. By then I'm sure you will be able to buy the same or better AMD SOC and build solid 1080p 2k gaming machine for $500 bucks... or spend a couple hundred more and get a decent discrete+cpu setup to do a bit better.
 

4saken

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Cost of consoles at the beginning of the run are below the cost of manufacture and is subsidized by the games sold for the console, something that is not the case for a PC.
This really.
 

idiomatic

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The die size of the 7nm Navi in the 5700 XT is 251 mm2. So in the span of a year they're somehow going to go from that to something capable of fitting into an APU, is significantly stronger, contains some kind of ray tracing hardware, has lower enough power requirements for the system to maintain 300w, can actually be cooled with a heatsink and fans, AND is cheap enough in order for a console to be released at $500?
If its chiplets it could be a pair of GPUs really. They can let developers figure it out.
 

Derangel

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If its chiplets it could be a pair of GPUs really. They can let developers figure it out.
That will never happen. The chiplets would still be too big, run too hot, and cost too much to work. Not to mention AMD doesn't want to do multi-GPU anymore. They've completely abandoned it.
 
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