Xbox One blocks used games - goodbye MS!

Mozex

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It is of course complete BS and why I will be enjoying my current consoles. I do wonder about the legality of this in Europe. Unlike USA, EU actually has policies to favor the consumer and you can't legally block 2nd hand sales.

It will be the same in Europe as the US. Steam works the same way in both places. Xbox live and psn work the same way in both places. I'm pretty sure Europeans have to deal with those crappy online passes too.

In both cases you can always sell the physical goods, but you may only be selling a collectible coaster.
 

MikeTrike

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Who needs them when you have a Steam DRM Scheme on the console.

This DRM is exactly like steam.. Honestly not surprised.. But I won't be getting one.

Exactly, killing off one of the main "good" features of what a console was. It's finally to the point where having a console provides no real benefit. The last real benefit it has, is that it's a little easier and a little more convenient it connect to the TV. For now, Steam's big screen mode aims to change that more and more. I think the big guy was right, next gen is going to be against the PC for sure this time.
 

mcravenufo

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Damnit...you mean my ColecoVision games aren't compatible with the Xbox One? :confused:
 
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Damnit...you mean my ColecoVision games aren't compatible with the Xbox One? :confused:

They can be emulated on a PC.


Seriously though, xbl games not being able to be emulated is a kick in the nuts. Most of those games work on phones, sheesh.
 

MikeTrike

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:eek: You mean I get to keep my games when I upgrade my HTPC?

One of my favorite parts of my PC universe. :D

I've got my PC games from the mid 90s that I can still run. However I need a god damn different console for everything else not on PC. :(

That's why it's upsetting that they are finally going the digital route and locking shit to your account. Why have a console if it now does what PC will do. We can only hope that they don't change the platform yet again in 5-10 years and you lose all of your shit again. While PC still has all of it's old shit. It's just annoying to know what they're doing and why they're doing it.
 

DarkSaturn

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I know I should be angry, but ultimately I don't buy used games, don't sell used games, and I keep my old console. I also already install everything to the 360 HDD, and have no problem having everything bound to a single account. So it would seem MS has seen fit to make everybody behave as I do.
 

MaZa

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I know I should be angry, but ultimately I don't buy used games, don't sell used games, and I keep my old console. I also already install everything to the 360 HDD, and have no problem having everything bound to a single account. So it would seem MS has seen fit to make everybody behave as I do.

However, do you even lend games to your friends? Sorry, Xbone doesnt allow that! Unless you give him access to your account which is a recipe for disaster. Or do you have family members with their own accounts? They cant play on their own, they have to use yours or buy the license.
 

biggles

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Maybe I'm dense but, if I buy a game and play it, then sell the physical disk to my friend for say $20, does my friend then in turn have to pay MS the "fee" which may be full retail price? Because now it could potentially have just cost my friend $80 for the game. I'm confused, or just dumb. Maybe both!

I have a couple friends that finance the next purchase of games by buying and selling games. They don't keep games forever.

I believe you have stated it correctly. From a practical standpoint it would become impossible to exchange a game with someone without MS taking a cut. This would eliminate the ability to sell your game on Craigslist or ebay.

It remains to be seen how MS will setup a process to sell or transfer your game to someone else. My guess is that they will partner with Gamestop or similar merchants. Or perhaps they will force folks to deal with them directly.

The other thing this would eliminate is borrowing games from friends. I sometimes loan out one of my 360 games in exchange for another. For instance, I recently loaned out Mass Effect in exchange for Fable 2. After a few months (after beating the games) my friend and I returned the games to each other. One could not do this with Xbox One without paying the full price of the game to MS.

For folks like me this is a HUGE dealbreaker. It is difficult to express in words how much this disappoints. This single issue ruins everything for me. All the other stuff (always online, backward compatibility, losing xbla titles, etc) are annoying but I could get over it. Can't get over the used game policy though.
 

DarkSaturn

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However, do you even lend games to your friends? Sorry, Xbone doesnt allow that! Unless you give him access to your account which is a recipe for disaster. Or do you have family members with their own accounts? They cant play on their own, they have to use yours or buy the license.

Yeah, I have borrowed or loaned a game from time to time. Ultimately I think we will see enough pressure to create a check-in, check-out type deal where the game can be deactivated from one account and activated on another. It looks like Microsoft is positioning this generation as the last for physical media, basically moving to treating everything like XBLA titles. We're likely to see hybrid releases, similar to the late stage of the PSP cycle where games saw synchronized releases in physical media and download versions (and also physical download code cards...).

The era of software as a license only sucks, but it's not going away.

They've serious fubared their roll-out here, letting out little bits of info, while it looks like they don't really have the whole picture worked out yet. Either that, or as everybody seems to have already decided - the whole picture is so terrible they have to reveal it slowly.
 

JohnDoe9541

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I am just arguing the case that it can't be compared to Steam and the PC. I completely understand that the games aren't compatible with the new architecture. But, people trying to defend this saying it is like Steam, is where they are wrong. This is nothing like Steam.

I lean towards a Playstation fanboy, but I am even mad about the games I bought on the PSN that are not going to be able to be played on the PS4. This is why I mostly game on my PC, because of BS like this. This is nothing like what I have ever seen from Steam/PC.

Can't sell or play my games that I bought from either console (xbox360/ps3) - $750 worth give or take. They are worthless once I upgrade. Screw that. I will buy a PS4, but only to play my physical discs. I will not be buying anything from the PSN anymore, unless they say it will be able to be played on future consoles, which won't even happen until close to the release of the next generation....oh well.

The only thing i buy from PSN store is DLC and that's it. I rather have a disc i can sell back and atleast get half of my money back. I don't plan on supporting digital games in the future, unless i don't have a choice. Also i never replay games so one time is fine with me.
 

Derangel

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For people comparing this to Steam: Let me ask you this- Would you seriously trust Microsoft to run a service like Steam? I sure as hell wouldn't.
 

Stereophile

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Exactly, killing off one of the main "good" features of what a console was. It's finally to the point where having a console provides no real benefit. The last real benefit it has, is that it's a little easier and a little more convenient it connect to the TV. For now, Steam's big screen mode aims to change that more and more. I think the big guy was right, next gen is going to be against the PC for sure this time.

MS has been against PC gaming since they got in the console business. Xbox always seemed to be trying to straddle the PC and console worlds. It was a Trojan horse like the GFWL.

With Xbone always using 2 out of 8 cores and 3/8 GB and always 10% of GPU resources dedicated to apps and virtual OS, it is trying to cross over into some new PC/Console/"device" hybrid product. MS feels the heat from Google and Apple.
 
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MrCrispy

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For people comparing this to Steam: Let me ask you this- Would you seriously trust Microsoft to run a service like Steam? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Why? Do you have any reasons beyond MS hatred? I can think of a number of companies with much worse privacy violations, e.g. Apple, Facebook, EA, even Google.
 

MrCrispy

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MS has been against PC gaming since they got in the console business. Xbox always seemed to be trying to straddle the PC and console worlds. It was a Trojan horse like the GFWL.

With Xbone always using 2 out of 8 cores and 3/8 GB reserved for OS, and always 10% of GPU resources dedicated to apps and virtual OS, it is trying to cross over into some new hybrid product. MS feels the heat from Google and Apple. If they aren't careful, Windows could become obsolete. It's An all in on one tech device that you want but dont know it yet.

It's obvious the Wii's success has influenced MS'S thinking on graphics. They went pretty low end considering how long it's been since 360 launched. Even if that was their strategy to not focus on the best graphics, they made a poor choice settling on DDR3, the esram and move engines wasted a lot of transistors that could have been spent on more compute units. It's all a bandaid for the slow main ram. One thing though, it is dirt cheap.

This is total FUD. Just because PS4 has some more shaders doesn't mean games will look hugely different. The same nonsense was said when PS3 came out about how much better Cell is with its multiple units etc. In 8 years most of the titles looked and played better on Xbox.

PS4 chose to spend money on GDDR5. You are conveniently ignoring the cost of Kinect. It may not matter to you, doesn't mean its free or that no one else cares. A tiny reduction in gpu specs + a whole bunch of new features means Xbox One is much more capable and all the multiplatform games will look pretty much the same.

For god's sake they haven't even shown the games yet! Already people are declaring PS4 the winner, its ridiculous.
 

MikeTrike

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9422545230500977529621197204563n.png
 

Derangel

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Why? Do you have any reasons beyond MS hatred? I can think of a number of companies with much worse privacy violations, e.g. Apple, Facebook, EA, even Google.

I wouldn't trust any of them either. I don't hate Microsoft. I just don't really trust them. What reasons? Simple: They haven't earned it. Over the life of the 360 they have focused updates on things that are not consumer friendly. The Blade interface wasn't great, but the ad-blasted, Kinect optimized, current 360 UI is terrible. The NXE UI was pretty good, but of course it didn't have enough ad room. XBL Gold in general. Forced to pay to play online, or to get demos on time, to watch streaming content, basically to use the system for it's intended entertainment center focus you have to pay Microsoft money on top of paying for services. GFWL..Just, GFWL. The new Kinect quite frankly freaks me the hell out. MS already has working in their TOS that makes it sound like they can gather and sell information on you, imagine that applied to a device that has to be on at all times the console is, can monitor your emotions and heart beat, can see in the dark, and is ALWAYS listening even when the console is asleep. I don't like conspiracy theories, but that is just too far for my liking.
 

MrCrispy

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I wouldn't trust any of them either. I don't hate Microsoft. I just don't really trust them. What reasons? Simple: They haven't earned it. Over the life of the 360 they have focused updates on things that are not consumer friendly. The Blade interface wasn't great, but the ad-blasted, Kinect optimized, current 360 UI is terrible. The NXE UI was pretty good, but of course it didn't have enough ad room. XBL Gold in general. Forced to pay to play online, or to get demos on time, to watch streaming content, basically to use the system for it's intended entertainment center focus you have to pay Microsoft money on top of paying for services. GFWL..Just, GFWL. The new Kinect quite frankly freaks me the hell out. MS already has working in their TOS that makes it sound like they can gather and sell information on you, imagine that applied to a device that has to be on at all times the console is, can monitor your emotions and heart beat, can see in the dark, and is ALWAYS listening even when the console is asleep. I don't like conspiracy theories, but that is just too far for my liking.

These are all reasons not to like the Xbox itself. Fine, don't buy it. I thought you said you didn't trust MS to run an online service like Steam, and for that I see no reason since they are in fact one of the best companies to run a massive online service.
 

Derangel

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These are all reasons not to like the Xbox itself. Fine, don't buy it. I thought you said you didn't trust MS to run an online service like Steam, and for that I see no reason since they are in fact one of the best companies to run a massive online service.

GFWL alone would be enough of a reason. Beyond that MS has proven time and again that they don't give two shits about the customer. Having the ability to run a service is only one part of the equation. Consumer trust is the bigger part. Valve, while no where near perfect either, has earned that trust. Microsoft has shot itself in the foot a rather impressive amount of times over the last year.
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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This is total FUD. Just because PS4 has some more shaders doesn't mean games will look hugely different. The same nonsense was said when PS3 came out about how much better Cell is with its multiple units etc. In 8 years most of the titles looked and played better on Xbox.

PS4 chose to spend money on GDDR5. You are conveniently ignoring the cost of Kinect. It may not matter to you, doesn't mean its free or that no one else cares. A tiny reduction in gpu specs + a whole bunch of new features means Xbox One is much more capable and all the multiplatform games will look pretty much the same.

For god's sake they haven't even shown the games yet! Already people are declaring PS4 the winner, its ridiculous.

50% MORE GPU power = more eyecandy. Nothing you can say to try and justify MS console will change this... MS is not focus on games, they are focus on media and it shows with their new MPAA patent to count the number of people watching a freaking movie....
 

MrCrispy

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Of course their focus isn't just on games. I'm to trying to justify anything, just that its a new direction and its not just for gamers.

More gpu only matters if games use it, and most are programmed to lowest common hardware. PS4 will look better but the two are more similar than people think. Exclusives are where the PS4 might shine.
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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The lowest common dedominator was the PS3 last time around but a good development team could pretty much negate that as the consoles were similar in overall power both CPU and graphics wise. This time around there is a rather significant performance penalty to be imposed on the one oveall with significantly less GPU power and system bandwidth outside of that tiny 32MB EDRAM block.
 

Derangel

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Ran across something interesting when reading an article on the system. Quotes are from Phil Spencer, the VP of Microsoft Game Studios:

"We think, actually, that having the content that’s yours go with you is an important thing. You could have multiple Xbox Ones, your content is yours on every one of them, and it doesn’t require that you carry discs back and forth. The disc becomes a means of distributing the bits back and forth but the content is locked to you."

and more interesting

“I think the whole idea of a secondary market is important and it’ll be important in the next generation and we’ve designed [Xbox One] with that in mind from the beginning. We think there are a lot of advantages of having your content assigned to you digitally – we did that on 360 with cloud-saved games – and we want to do that with content.”

“We understand there are implications to secondary; just know that we recognise the importance of that market and we’ve designed with that in mind from the beginning. We’ll share more details as we get further along the road.”

Source of quotes: Edge

It makes me wonder if Microsoft is going to have some kind of digital buying and selling system where presumably they along with publishers get a cut of the sales. With that kind of system they could cut out companies like Gamestop and get a piece of the used game pie, a win-win situation for them. That said, he doesn't mention anything about game borrowing.
 

bigdogchris

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On the used, I thought about that as well -Microsoft getting a cut.

They may have some type of digital locker program that only resellers, like Gamestop, can join. The reseller will act like a broker of these titles in the digital locker, reassigning new keys (that were assigned to them from Microsoft) to gain access to the games (think how publishers sell games on Steam, yet receive keys for give aways or other distribution methods). Because it's been discussed that Microsoft is probably not going to stamp unique disc, it's going to be interesting to see how they know if someone has 'traded in' a game or not. Unless of course Gamestop has a system where gamers can log in (on a keypad or kiosk) and de-activate their game, right in the store, and transfer that purchase to Gamestop to be reassigned.

A system like this would be more of a courtesy than anything else, since Microsoft could handle it if they wanted too.
 

HardUp4HardWare

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They could always sell two versions of games, One is one install only and then another with a $5 premium would be resaleable. At least the consumer would be guaranteed a larger return on used games sales, AND they would get the $$ up front, AND the end user can decide if he wants to be able to resell, as some people don't care.

Still M$ should, in the end, drop this bull shit and consume a satchel full of phalli.
 

SeymourGore

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What Microsoft should do is take a page from Blizzard's book. Create a built-in auction house into X1 where players can trade/sell DLC, user created cosmetics and game licenses. MS themselves would take a cut of each transaction. This way, MS would still be able to say they allow a used games market, while we're happily being nickel and dimed! Woo!
 

MrCrispy

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If they don't announce any way to sell games privately, e.g. Over CL/eBay, then like I said I'm not buying the One. This system is nothing but pure greed and will hurt both consumers and retailers.
 

BladeVenom

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I thought you said you didn't trust MS to run an online service like Steam, and for that I see no reason since they are in fact one of the best companies to run a massive online service.

Why would anyone buy games from them that relied on online servers?

MS has already screwed over anyone foolish enough to buy DRM music from their MSN Music Store. They shut down those servers. Microsoft to nuke MSN Music DRM keys Why wouldn't they do the same to games?

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

They have already shut down their Microsoft Gaming Zone servers. Anyone who used those got screwed, if the game developers didn't come up with an alternate system.
 
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Jagger100

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I know I should be angry, but ultimately I don't buy used games, don't sell used games, and I keep my old console. I also already install everything to the 360 HDD, and have no problem having everything bound to a single account. So it would seem MS has seen fit to make everybody behave as I do.
The secondary game market is probably the only reason console games eventually drop in price. They can't keep selling Call of Dudley for $60 if there's a monsterous inventory of Call of Dudley at Gamefly/stop/whathever and its going for $10.

I expect they would eventually lower prices but no where near as fast as they do now which is already glacial compared to PC game price drops.

So even if you don't resell or buy used, you benefit by being able to pick up new games cheaper sooner because of the reselling that does (did) happen.
 

demingo

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The secondary game market is probably the only reason console games eventually drop in price. They can't keep selling Call of Dudley for $60 if there's a monsterous inventory of Call of Dudley at Gamefly/stop/whathever and its going for $10.

I expect they would eventually lower prices but no where near as fast as they do now which is already glacial compared to PC game price drops.

So even if you don't resell or buy used, you benefit by being able to pick up new games cheaper sooner because of the reselling that does (did) happen.

Except the above makes no sense since the PC has almost no secondary market and the lowest prices you can find.
 

Snowdog

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Except the above makes no sense since the PC has almost no secondary market and the lowest prices you can find.

Console games are inherently more expensive because a cut has to go to Microsoft/Sony.
 

demingo

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Console games are inherently more expensive because a cut has to go to Microsoft/Sony.

I know that, but he said the only reason for a price drop is a secondary market. Which is not true.

Steam, the source of most cheap pc games, also takes a cut, not as large but it seems it's still a workable model for pubs.
 

yourgrandma

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Steam, the source of most cheap pc games, also takes a cut, not as large but it seems it's still a workable model for pubs.
Steam has competition between digital stores. There is no competition on consoles because you're locked into their market. You can already see the difference on console digital prices on their locked market vs used prices, hell even the retail prices are better. Prices on the digital market stay at higher prices for much longer and just about never drop in price.

example
example
 

DarkSaturn

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The secondary game market is probably the only reason console games eventually drop in price. They can't keep selling Call of Dudley for $60 if there's a monsterous inventory of Call of Dudley at Gamefly/stop/whathever and its going for $10.

I expect they would eventually lower prices but no where near as fast as they do now which is already glacial compared to PC game price drops.

So even if you don't resell or buy used, you benefit by being able to pick up new games cheaper sooner because of the reselling that does (did) happen.

Even in a world completely devoid of secondary sales, I think we still see the 'Platinum Hits' and 'Gold Edition', those aren't designed to compete with secondary sales but rather to re-introduce interest in games beyond their initial sales window. Most well received spring/summer releases, will see a lower price version released in time for the holiday season. Not really that different from the steal sales philosophy, just that the prices aren't quite so good. Console publishers are happy to pick up anyone who had moderate interest with the secondary release, whereas Steam prices it so low that idiots like me end up buying games we only have a cursory interest in, but hey, its only $3.99...
 

Arthur Hucksake

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I was a bit of a 360 fanboy for some years due to the fact it had the edge on multiplatforms. Then avatars crept in, and it seemed to spiral so I got back into PC gaming and just a PS3 for it's original and different IPs.

I was hoping I could enjoy the Xbox again, but not like this. I am so unimpressed with this system it's unreal. It doesn't even have the redeeming edge of being the most powerful of the two.
 
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