Xbox "Next" or "Infinity" reveal thread. Today is the big day!

Even the box art sucks.

xboxone_forza5_boxart-590x330.jpg


Grey and green? Seriously?
 
You can no longer sell used games on sites like Craigslist or eBay starting with the Xbox One.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publ...of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137

  • Gamestop and other retailers who have agreed to the policy will be participating in this.

    Any retailer not participating in this program will more likely be unable to take in your used game.
  • Any Xbox One game is registered in a database at Microsoft and linked to your [XBL] account. When a game is sold at a place like Gamestop, the game is de-linked from your account from the database so that it can be re-linked to another XBL account.
  • Microsoft takes a cut of the amount sold for the game and another cut goes to the game publisher/developer. The rest goes to the retailer.
There is still no absolute confirmation other than from the comment by the Microsoft representative that someone will need to pay full retail price or a used game fee for buying a previously used game, or borrowing a game from a friend or family member and linking it to your own account on your own console.

As I see it, these games are following Microsoft's Windows 7 and 8 licensing for their retail versions. You are only allowed one license per game per account and console. It cannot be installed or played on another console without going through extra measures and steps.

And, how I understand the "let a friend borrow my game" that was already talked about and mentioned in recent news articles:
If you log onto YOUR XBL ACCOUNT, you can play your game at your friend's place or another family member's Xbox One console.

If you let your friend or family member borrow your game to install on his/her console, and he/she uses their XBL account, they CANNOT play that game you lent to them. They will need their OWN license to the game.

If the game is previously activated/registered on your OWN console, and installed on a friend's/family member's and they register/link the game to THEIR XBL ACCOUNT, your installation is DEACTIVATED and DE-LINKED from your XBL account.​
Microsoft is essentially saying in very simple terms:
ONE Xbox One game PER Xbox Live account.

Only ONE COPY of an Xbox One game is allowed to be registered and linked to your XBL account.

YOUR COPY of an Xbox One game will be de-linked, de-activated, and/or removed from your XBL account once onwership of the game is transferred to another (e.g.- resold to a retailer like Gamestop; or if a friend registers your game to their account.)

Borrowing someone else's copy of a game and registering it to YOUR ACCOUNT, will most likely incur a small fee charged by Microsoft with cuts going to the game publisher. Details of this have been hinted at by a Microsoft representative but will be detailed at a later time.

There is NO FEE INCURRED if you play YOUR COPY of an Xbox One game on another console AS LONG AS YOU ARE LOGGED INTO YOUR OWN Xbox Live account on that console.

Letting someone borrow YOUR COPY of an Xbox One game will be unplayable on another Xbox One console if the person you lent it to uses THEIR Xbox Live account to play it. You will need to a) log into YOUR account so they can play on THEIR console OR b) Your friend or family will have to pay a possible fee to transfer license from YOUR account to the BORROWER'S account, but also de-linking it from your account as a result and deactivating your installation on your own console.​
Hope this clarifies some things, because that's what I understand so far since the Xbox One reveal.
 
I like how all the Xbox One logos, colors, designs are all based on Metro. :rolleyes:
Lock stock and barrel they will go down with the Metro ship apparently.

I just hope the new UI Sony showed at their conference works half as well as the XMB. I still cannot understand why they are throwing that design away....it's such a fast and decently organized UI.
 
zero2dash said:
I like how all the Xbox One logos, colors, designs are all based on Metro. :rolleyes:
Lock stock and barrel they will go down with the Metro ship apparently.
Click to expand...

Well, the kernel is based on Windows 8, or a very small version of it.

And, if going by the article on Anandtech, I wonder how long it will be until someone manages to extract the guest OS images of the Xbox OS (Xbox One games) and the Windows 8 OS (apps) to attempt to run on an installation of Hyper-V in Server 2012 with RemoteFX enabled.

Lol.
 
I see people making an account for each game and selling the account with it, while microsoft will boast about how many new people joined xbox live.

And what if your account gets banned for things other than piracy?
 
Nettwerk said:
I see people making an account for each game and selling the account with it, while microsoft will boast about how many new people joined xbox live.

And what if your account gets banned for things other than piracy?
Click to expand...

A future FS/FT forum post a few years from now:

FS Used Xbox One Games (accounts included)

"cod5acct1" - Call of Duty 5 - $60

"halloo6acct2" - Halo 6 - $70

"assncred9" - Assassin's Creed 9 - $65

"frzafrza5" - Forza 5 - $60

When sold, buyers will get the user name and password shipped with their game.

Priority mail shipped to all 48 continental US states, PM if you live in Canada, Hawaii, or Alaska.

Amazon Payments or PayPal Verified accounts ONLY!​
 
octoberasian said:
You can no longer sell used games on sites like Craigslist or eBay starting with the Xbox One.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publ...of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137

  • Gamestop and other retailers who have agreed to the policy will be participating in this.
  • Microsoft takes a cut of the amount sold for the game and another cut goes to the game publisher/developer. The rest goes to the retailer.
Click to expand...

Allow me to repost here what I just posted in a thread at GB about this, because I think it's potentially very interesting (although all speculation):

On the surface (and I'm sure it's all in the details) this sounds a lot like the Agency model that Apple is now in "deep shit" with the Department of Justice over, in a price-fixing case where the sitting judge just recently stated in a pretrial hearing:

"I believe that the government will be able to show at trial direct evidence that Apple knowingly participated in and facilitated a conspiracy to raise prices of e-books, and that the circumstantial evidence in this case, including the terms of the agreements, will confirm that,"
Click to expand...

To spell out my speculation; If Microsoft has indeed entered into a similar deal to make retailers their and game publisher's agents, and this happens... it could explain why they're a) not willing to talk specifics at this point and b) No one seems to be on the same page.
 
eloj said:
Allow me to repost here what I just posted in a thread at GB about this, because I think it's potentially very interesting (although all speculation):

On the surface (and I'm sure it's all in the details) this sounds a lot like the Agency model that Apple is now in "deep shit" with the Department of Justice over, in a price-fixing case where the sitting judge just recently stated in a pretrial hearing:



To spell out my speculation; If Microsoft has indeed entered into a similar deal to make retailers their and game publisher's agents, and this happens... it could explain why they're a) not willing to talk specifics at this point and b) No one seems to be on the same page.
Click to expand...

It does make me wonder if this falls under "collusion":
In the study of economics and market competition, collusion takes place within an industry when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit. Collusion most often takes place within the market structure of oligopoly, where the decision of a few firms to collude can significantly impact the market as a whole. Cartels are a special case of explicit collusion. Collusion which is not overt, on the other hand, is known as tacit collusion.

- Wikipedia​
And, would it be illegal?

You have to consider several things:
  1. Microsoft has entered into an agreement with game publishers and retailers.
  2. They are inherently modifying secondhand sales and the game publisher's to their favor, not the consumer's.
  3. The agreement is asking a percentage cut of any sale of a secondhand game.
  4. It is essentially limiting or removing competition of used game sales in other places-- eBay, Craigslist, and the like.
  5. Consumers have little control over the game they bought and will most likely be asked or required to pay a fee to transfer license and ownership to another person whether through Xbox Live's proposed used game market or through a retailer such as GameStop.
This kind of practice is something you don't see in other markets.

For example, if I go to CarMax and buy a Nissan Pathfinder, Nissan is in no agreement with CarMax to take a 10% cut of every Nissan vehicle CarMax sells to a customer. CarMax is also not asked to pay a fee to resell a used car to another customer. The only one organization that's going to ask me to pay a fee for transfer of ownership is the California DMV, and it is my responsibility alone to pay the DMV a registration fee to register my newly bought used car.

The same with used books. The book store in my neighborhood does not pay a portion of their used book sales to a publisher like Penguin Books or McGraw-Hill for a used book they sell to another person. The book is still protected under copyright laws just like any software or game in the PC and console market. Why would a retailer be required to pay a portion of their sales to the copyright owner's just for reselling the book? It makes no sense.

It would practically remove the idea of ownership of anything if licensing and/or ownership of an item such as a car, book, or even a music CD, is limited to single-use, single-owner without rights to transfer it to someone else. It basically violates the first-sale doctrine, US Code 17, Section 109 (Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord):
Once an item is purchased, it is freed from its copyright control on how it is resold or its resale price.​
 
JohnDoe9541 said:
Why did you add Ninja Gaiden 3 to that list? It's not a exclusive for Wii U, it's on 360 and ps3. Unless 1st party and exclusive is different?
Click to expand...

As noted Nintendo published it...First party games are published by Nintendo... Same for MS and Sony... IF MS Studios decided to publish a multiplatfrom title, it would be considered a first party game on that system.
 
Yeah this "collusion" is really bad. It gives Gamestop along with one or two other big-name second-hander traders a monopoly over the used-game market.

Gamestop already has what is effectively a monopsony, since it freely dictates terms to its suppliers (i.e. publishers) on its stocking of videogames...ranging from demanding exclusive in-game content, exclusive pre-order bonuses, and forcing Steam/Origin/etc prices to be equal to or higher than what Gamestop's.

I really want to know how rentals are going to work now, if at all.
 
^ steam will basically tell them if you want it on our store you agree to our terms. Steam makes a crapload of money for developers even with heavily discounted games...
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
^ steam will basically tell them if you want it on our store you agree to our terms. Steam makes a crapload of money for developers even with heavily discounted games...
Click to expand...

What terms though? Steam does nothing to counter exorbitant price-fixing, especially across different regions. The price-fixing is done because Gamestop/EB Games threatens the publishers into doing it.
 
Plague_Injected said:
I really want to know how rentals are going to work now, if at all.
Click to expand...

This essentially kills game rentals from places like Redbox.

It's practically the end of "traditional used game sales" and game rentals from the moment Xbox One enters the market, and especially if Sony follows Microsoft's lead.

You cannot rent an Xbox One game from Redbox or Gamefly without having to go through the process of registering and linking it to your account.

And, I would not be surprised you'll end up paying a licensing fee of some kind, if renting was possible under this scenario, just to play the game on your own account. You still have to go through the hassle of possibly de-linking and/or de-authorizing the game from your account as well when you return the game.

I don't think any consumer would want to go through that trouble at all. I wouldn't.

I don't care if I'm making a lot of money from my job or live in the Hamptons, I'm not going to use my own money to pay for a licensing fee for every game I rent or any used game I buy. Microsoft should not treat the game like they treat their operating systems and other software with this single-license, single-ownership attitude.
 
octoberasian said:
This essentially kills game rentals from places like Redbox.

It's practically the end of "traditional used game sales" and game rentals from the moment Xbox One enters the market, and especially if Sony follows Microsoft's lead.

You cannot rent an Xbox One game from Redbox or Gamefly without having to go through the process of registering and linking it to your account.

And, I would not be surprised you'll end up paying a licensing fee of some kind, if renting was possible under this scenario, just to play the game on your own account. You still have to go through the hassle of possibly de-linking and/or de-authorizing the game from your account as well when you return the game.

I don't think any consumer would want to go through that trouble at all. I wouldn't.

I don't care if I'm making a lot of money from my job or live in the Hamptons, I'm not going to use my own money to pay for a licensing fee for every game I rent or any used game I buy. Microsoft should not treat the game like they treat their operating systems and other software with this single-license, single-ownership attitude.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'm actually expecting Sony will go down this road as well, since it has not ruled any of this out and has been extremely cagey over details. If MS and Sony are bowing to the whims of Gamestop then it makes sense that both will implement a system that benefits Gamestop over everyone else. If both consoles release around the same time, all it will take is for Gamestop to not stock as many PS4 units as Xbox One units and Sony is already behind.
 
octoberasian said:
It does make me wonder if this falls under "collusion":
In the study of economics and market competition, collusion takes place within an industry when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit. Collusion most often takes place within the market structure of oligopoly, where the decision of a few firms to collude can significantly impact the market as a whole. Cartels are a special case of explicit collusion. Collusion which is not overt, on the other hand, is known as tacit collusion.

- Wikipedia​
And, would it be illegal?

You have to consider several things:
  1. Microsoft has entered into an agreement with game publishers and retailers.
  2. They are inherently modifying secondhand sales and the game publisher's to their favor, not the consumer's.
  3. The agreement is asking a percentage cut of any sale of a secondhand game.
  4. It is essentially limiting or removing competition of used game sales in other places-- eBay, Craigslist, and the like.
  5. Consumers have little control over the game they bought and will most likely be asked or required to pay a fee to transfer license and ownership to another person whether through Xbox Live's proposed used game market or through a retailer such as GameStop.
This kind of practice is something you don't see in other markets.

For example, if I go to CarMax and buy a Nissan Pathfinder, Nissan is in no agreement with CarMax to take a 10% cut of every Nissan vehicle CarMax sells to a customer. CarMax is also not asked to pay a fee to resell a used car to another customer. The only one organization that's going to ask me to pay a fee for transfer of ownership is the California DMV, and it is my responsibility alone to pay the DMV a registration fee to register my newly bought used car.

The same with used books. The book store in my neighborhood does not pay a portion of their used book sales to a publisher like Penguin Books or McGraw-Hill for a used book they sell to another person. The book is still protected under copyright laws just like any software or game in the PC and console market. Why would a retailer be required to pay a portion of their sales to the copyright owner's just for reselling the book? It makes no sense.

It would practically remove the idea of ownership of anything if licensing and/or ownership of an item such as a car, book, or even a music CD, is limited to single-use, single-owner without rights to transfer it to someone else. It basically violates the first-sale doctrine, US Code 17, Section 109 (Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord):
Once an item is purchased, it is freed from its copyright control on how it is resold or its resale price.​
Click to expand...

I guess it really comes down to how the initial transaction is viewed. Using the car analogy Mircosoft think's of this more as lease than a purchase. You are leasing the game according to their terms. If you want to transfer your lease, both you and the party you are transferring your lease to must agree to MS's terms.

I don't like it, but I do see how it could be perfectly legal.

They could also go the route of Steam where you are not actually buying a game, but purchasing a subscription.
 
Well if Sony decides to do this i'm going to take the HTPC route. I will just have to miss out on some exclusives and playing with friends... :(
 
Plague_Injected said:
What terms though? Steam does nothing to counter exorbitant price-fixing, especially across different regions. The price-fixing is done because Gamestop/EB Games threatens the publishers into doing it.
Click to expand...

Obviously you are skipping over the all too regular Steam sales that negate any so called price fixing.

Batman on Steam with all DLC 2 weeks after launch $25, console $60, Retail at Target $40. It's called being patient and waiting them out.

Also Amazon has run HUGE sales on multiple titles for like $7.50 or the WTF pack for $10 that included Duke Nuken Forever, Borderlands, and The Darkness II

or how about the freaking awsome deal of Tantalizing THQ Medley [Download] for $10

Patience is an awesome thing..
 
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YeuEmMaiMai said:
Obviously you are skipping over the all too regular Steam sales that negate any so called price fixing.

Batman on Steam with all DLC 2 weeks after launch $25, console $60, Retail at Target $40. It's called being patient and waiting them out.

Also Amazon has run HUGE sales on multiple titles for like $7.50 or the WTF pack for $10 that included Duke Nuken Forever, Borderlands, and The Darkness II

or how about the freaking awsome deal of Tantalizing THQ Medley [Download] for $10

Patience is an awesome thing..
Click to expand...

The recent Dead Space pack sale on Steam was $21 on the Australian Steam...three times the price of the US price. Steam sales are still price-fixed and have what we call the "Australian Tax" on them. Origin has Australian-specific sales, which are extremely rare and result in getting Crysis 3 at 50% off at a fantastic...$50.

Amazon has good deals, but it does not sell digital downloads legally games outside of the US and Canada. To buy from it, you have to make a fake address and then because downloads don't work outside of USA/Canada, you are limited to games that come with Steam, Origin or UPlay, where you can use the code to activate and download through that.
 
Australia sounds like a shitty place to be a gamer. I'd find a new hobby like surfing... Wait.. I've seen jaws never mind :) at least there's Kylie Minogue.
 
Plague_Injected said:
The recent Dead Space pack sale on Steam was $21 on the Australian Steam...three times the price of the US price. Steam sales are still price-fixed and have what we call the "Australian Tax" on them. Origin has Australian-specific sales, which are extremely rare and result in getting Crysis 3 at 50% off at a fantastic...$50.

Amazon has good deals, but it does not sell digital downloads legally games outside of the US and Canada. To buy from it, you have to make a fake address and then because downloads don't work outside of USA/Canada, you are limited to games that come with Steam, Origin or UPlay, where you can use the code to activate and download through that.
Click to expand...

lol just because something cost more outside of the USA does not mean it's price fixed.

give you a prime example

a yamaha 125 CC scooter runs you $3300 here state side and a similar sized yamaha scooter runs you $2K in Vietnam.... OMG they are price fixing it. I am willing to bet you never looked to see if prices are higher due to import tarrifs...
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
lol just because something cost more outside of the USA does not mean it's price fixed.

give you a prime example

a yamaha 125 CC scooter runs you $3300 here state side and a similar sized yamaha scooter runs you $2K in Vietnam.... OMG they are price fixing it. I am willing to bet you never looked to see if prices are higher due to import tarrifs...
Click to expand...

If you are comparing digital downloads bought in USD and downloaded from US servers to physical products manufactured in different countries with different production expenses, wages and government regulations, then import costs and local retailers taking a cut...then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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octoberasian said:
For example, if I go to CarMax and buy a Nissan Pathfinder, Nissan is in no agreement with CarMax to take a 10% cut of every Nissan vehicle CarMax sells to a customer. CarMax is also not asked to pay a fee to resell a used car to another customer.
Click to expand...

While I agree with you, I think car sales is probably not the best comparison here. In the US specifically they're actually really fucked up (or even more recently, Tesla). Listen to the podcast episode if you haven't it's ... enlightening.

But yes, if MS has entered into agreements with publishers and retailers to control this market, there's good reason to think MS may find themselves before a judge before long. Now, imagine how this looks if Sony wants to (or is forced to by publishers) do the exact same thing!
 
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HisSvt76 said:
Australia sounds like a shitty place to be a gamer. I'd find a new hobby like surfing... Wait.. I've seen jaws never mind :) at least there's Kylie Minogue.
Click to expand...
Most of us still don't know how she had a career after the Street Fighter movie. As for gaming, prices do drop quite quickly for some games. I picked up Crysis 3 for $39 a few days back, and ozgameshop, Zavvi and Hitari offer reasonable pricing for games. PAL gaming is generally shitty though, we didn't get an official Final Fantasy game until 7, and our games become rarer and more expensive after the console becomes obsolete.
 
Plague_Injected said:
The recent Dead Space pack sale on Steam was $21 on the Australian Steam...three times the price of the US price. Steam sales are still price-fixed and have what we call the "Australian Tax" on them. Origin has Australian-specific sales, which are extremely rare and result in getting Crysis 3 at 50% off at a fantastic...$50.

Amazon has good deals, but it does not sell digital downloads legally games outside of the US and Canada. To buy from it, you have to make a fake address and then because downloads don't work outside of USA/Canada, you are limited to games that come with Steam, Origin or UPlay, where you can use the code to activate and download through that.
Click to expand...

The minimum wage is more in the US, healthcare costs more, more people are closer to the wage in the US and income inequality is worse here. As such, you're average US consumer has far less in income and manages to keep far less out of pocket. That's free market capitalism at work, but the downside is we get shit cheaper. You guys are on average paid a good bit more, have cheaper cost of living, cheaper and better health care, and get to keep more of your cash.

Some countries are worse than the US and guess what... games are cheaper there. But trust me, you're better off in AUS than the US. A game costs vastly more of the average average workers wage (without taking into account we pay more for healthcare than it does in AUS). They're making up for the fact the US is going to shit. Has been since Reagan.
 
acerbic said:
The minimum wage is more in the US, healthcare costs more, more people are closer to the wage in the US and income inequality is worse here. As such, you're average US consumer has far less in income and manages to keep far less out of pocket. That's free market capitalism at work, but the downside is we get shit cheaper. You guys are on average paid a good bit more, have cheaper cost of living, cheaper and better health care, and get to keep more of your cash.

Some countries are worse than the US and guess what... games are cheaper there. But trust me, you're better off in AUS than the US. A game costs vastly more of the average average workers wage (without taking into account we pay more for healthcare than it does in AUS). They're making up for the fact the US is going to shit. Has been since Reagan.
Click to expand...

Not according to wikipedia.
800px-GDP_PPP_per_capita_2007_IMF.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
 
SeKmna0.png


This kinda tells the story. And in the US, the lower part of our population is far lower to the lower wage.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I support it. Hell I work in IT and I support policies I know are going to savage my income. That's what capitalism is all about, driving down costs. But lower wages + higher health costs = less spare cash.

Also that median is utterly inflated by blue coastal states where incomes are much higher on average, but so is cost of living.
 
acerbic said:
This kinda tells the story. And in the US, the lower part of our population is far lower to the lower wage.
Click to expand...

WTH are you talking about, that image says nothing about cost of living.

And ignoring all that, there's been a national inquery in AU from the government trying to get to the bottom of the pricing problems. Not only that, but the vendors invited FAILED to explain why prices are so much higher, offering just bullshit and hand waving.

But yeah, I guess some 16 day old sockpuppet can explain it all away with a meme-generator. Are you insane?
 
rsbennett00 said:
That's harsh. I see now what other forums mean about elitism at the [H].
Click to expand...

It's entirely fair. He's trotting out the "wage difference" like hasn't been trotted out a thousand times before. If I were australian, I'd be insulted at the implication.

Allow me to quote the Great Yahtzee:

"But if I'm going to enable someone's elitism, it's going to be the guy who's elitist because he's smarter. Not the one who's elitist because of fucking bullshit."
Click to expand...

I'm happy taking the word elitist back.
 
eloj said:
It's entirely fair. He's trotting out the "wage difference" like hasn't been trotted out a thousand times before. If I were australian, I'd be insulted at the implication.

Allow me to quote the Great Yahtzee:



I'm happy taking the word elitist back.
Click to expand...

Companies price things differently in different regions. The US has a lower minimum wage, more people close to it, vastly more income inequality, and people get screwed with their healthcare costs. Thus, stuff is generally cheaper in the US than it is in the EU or AUS. Much like how shit is cheaper in China or Mexico than it is in the US. That's just capitalism at work. Want cheaper goods, move your country closer to a shit hole and shit will get cheaper. Live in a nicer place and shit gets more expensive. This is not that hard.

It's not an insult to Australia, it's a compliment. Shit costs less here because vast swaths of the US are backwards shit holes racing to become the next China. As such pricing for goods is adjusted.
 
eloj said:
But yeah, I guess some 16 day old sockpuppet can explain it all away with a meme-generator. Are you insane?
Click to expand...

Being registered here longer that somebody else doesn't make you any more intelligent or right.
 
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