Xbox Elite only HDMI 1.2?

C

CopyCat

Supreme [H]ardness
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Jan 23, 2001
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Now, this likely won't make a change in image quality but Audio has become a huge part of the HD experience and not being able to get that out of the 360 really urks me. I mean you can't even take full advantage of the HD DVD add-on if you use it with a 360?

Anyone else think this is a bummer?? Not that I would have upgraded my 360 anyways, but if I wanted to use it for a Hi-Def player later on I may have made the move after a price change but this just makes me not want one even more.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/xbox-elite-is-really-just-ok-248754.php
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/04/02/xbox_360_elite_is_not_hdmi_1.3_compliant/

Thoughts??
 
i've said it a few times already.

If you are SERIOUS about HD video and audio, you AREN'T using an Xbox360 to watch it.
 
The $1500 Pioneer Elite Blu-Ray player doesn't support all the latest audio codecs. Besides, there isn't an AV receiver on the market that decodes them. Sometimes it seems people are just looking for something to bitch about.
 
Yeah, but since it only does 2 channel uncompressed audio through HDMI it screws everyone on that front as well. PS3 does multichannel uncompressed audio over HDMI and it works great with my Denon 3806. Then again, the PS3 is among the top BluRay players and I doubt the 360 is amongst the top HD-DVD players.
 
ND40oz said:
Yeah, but since it only does 2 channel uncompressed audio through HDMI it screws everyone on that front as well. PS3 does multichannel uncompressed audio over HDMI and it works great with my Denon 3806. Then again, the PS3 is among the top BluRay players and I doubt the 360 is amongst the top HD-DVD players.
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How does it screw people?

Granted, you'd need 2 cables for your hookup (TOSLink and HDMI) but you aren't "screwed". Unless your receiver doesn't have TOSLink inputs (i'd say impossible, if it has HDMI)

People need to remember that Sony is using the PS3 as a conduit for Blu-Ray acceptance, so they NEEDED to make the PS3 stronger on that front.

The XBox 360's HD-DVD player is an optional add-on for people who just "want a taste."
 
Yes, you can get 5.1 via Toslink. not via HDMI. you really don't need it via HDMI anyway simply because I don't think there is a TV with 5.1 audio....
 
Sinister Crayon said:
Yes, you can get 5.1 via Toslink. not via HDMI. you really don't need it via HDMI anyway simply because I don't think there is a TV with 5.1 audio....
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Unless you're hooking it to a serious receiver, or you've got a TV with 5.1 pass-through. Neither scenario is all that difficult to envision.
 
KaosDG said:
How does it screw people?

Granted, you'd need 2 cables for your hookup (TOSLink and HDMI) but you aren't "screwed". Unless your receiver doesn't have TOSLink inputs (i'd say impossible, if it has HDMI)

People need to remember that Sony is using the PS3 as a conduit for Blu-Ray acceptance, so they NEEDED to make the PS3 stronger on that front.

The XBox 360's HD-DVD player is an optional add-on for people who just "want a taste."
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Because I only want one cable. That's really not too much to ask if they're asking me to buy a new system to replace my existing premium to add HDMI functionality. If I bought a receiver that does HDMI switching to minimize the amount of cabling I have to do, why do I want to run an extra cable? The whole point is so Microsoft can say, look we have HDMI too and a larger hard drive. If that's the point they're trying to make, then don't clip the features. HDMI has always had support for 8 channel uncompressed audio, why shouldn't the 360 support it if they're going to release an HDMI capable 360?
 
ND40oz said:
HDMI has always had support for 8 channel uncompressed audio
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nope...

Besides, Microsoft said they don't expect to get many normal xbox360 people upgrading to the elite. It's more of a console designed to reward those who are smart enough to not early adopt a premature console...
 
Just curious but is this something that could change with a firmware update? :confused:
 
ND40oz said:
Because I only want one cable. That's really not too much to ask if they're asking me to buy a new system to replace my existing premium to add HDMI functionality. If I bought a receiver that does HDMI switching to minimize the amount of cabling I have to do, why do I want to run an extra cable? The whole point is so Microsoft can say, look we have HDMI too and a larger hard drive. If that's the point they're trying to make, then don't clip the features. HDMI has always had support for 8 channel uncompressed audio, why shouldn't the 360 support it if they're going to release an HDMI capable 360?
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Your wants and needs don't "screw everyone", simply put.
Sure, you're left out in the cold by it, and i'm sure others feel the same way.

Let's look at it objectively for a second: how many games are in 1080p?
how many games have TrueHD / DTS-HD / uncompressed audio?

Now look at the HD-DVD player... can you even push that amount of data across the USB bus? (I dunno what the hddvd / truehd /etc bit rates look like, too lazy).

The hd-dvd portion i'd say was only marginally considered when MS decided on adding HDMI... simply because it's not a primary function of the system.
 
KaosDG said:
Now look at the HD-DVD player... can you even push that amount of data across the USB bus? (I dunno what the hddvd / truehd /etc bit rates look like, too lazy).
Click to expand...

Yes. It's USB 2.0, not 1.1.

Anyway, getting one cable isn't too much to ask. However, it isn't something to complain about if you don't get it, either. True 5.1 surround sound hasn't even really been possible on a console until the Xbox 360 came around, and when the new model with HDMI makes you hook up just one more freakin' cable, everyone goes nuts.
 
Not looking for something to bitch about, just seems odd that they didn't put 1.3 in there dont you think? I don't see the benefit of not putting it in there really...I mean a huge part of HDMI in the first place is the fact that its a single cable for HD audio and video.
The 360 could already do HD video via component cables so I don't know, the addition of the HDMI 1.2 port seems like just a spin to get people to buy more of them....there is no real benefit in having it on the 360 at all.

Thats all. I love my 360....just wish this upgrade was more of an upgrade. There are lots of bashing on the elite threads already so I will leave it at that.

Not trying to step on any toes, just trying to figure out what Microsoft was trying to do exactly with this new upgrade. For the people or for microsoft??
 
The target market is clearly defined. It is for the ELITE. Much like the ELITE pioneer line of products. It supports extra bells and whistles in and redesigned case. Nothing more.

If you are getting this to plug into a 6 year old TV, and 4 year old reciever with a 10 year old speaker setup. You are probably not spending money very wisely. ;)
 
PWMK2 said:
Yes. It's USB 2.0, not 1.1.

Anyway, getting one cable isn't too much to ask. However, it isn't something to complain about if you don't get it, either. True 5.1 surround sound hasn't even really been possible on a console until the Xbox 360 came around, and when the new model with HDMI makes you hook up just one more freakin' cable, everyone goes nuts.
Click to expand...

No, it's not too much to ask, and I agree that MS should have just gone for the gusto with it.

But it's no reason to take offense. at least they added the HDMI.
 
Jeez, I love how people just defend a position to defend it. If you don't have a receiver that supports HDMI switching and uncompressed audio through HDMI then good for you. I do and I wish microsoft would support it. I planned on picking one up on the 29th, but now I am reconsidering and may just stick with my premium. I still wouldn't mind getting it just so it matches everything else though. There's a pretty sizeable thread over at AVSforum too, so obviously I'm not the only idiot out here that cares. Check out the results of the poll.
 
ND40oz said:
Yeah, but since it only does 2 channel uncompressed audio through HDMI it screws everyone on that front as well. PS3 does multichannel uncompressed audio over HDMI and it works great with my Denon 3806. Then again, the PS3 is among the top BluRay players and I doubt the 360 is amongst the top HD-DVD players.
Click to expand...

Only 2 channels uncompressed? Do you have a link (not one dated April 1st, please ;) ), because that seems really odd. Why would they gimp it like that? I call shenanigans. Lies, half truths.

Anyway, getting one cable isn't too much to ask. However, it isn't something to complain about if you don't get it, either. True 5.1 surround sound hasn't even really been possible on a console until the Xbox 360 came around, and when the new model with HDMI makes you hook up just one more freakin' cable, everyone goes nuts.
Click to expand...

You realize we are talking about the new audio codecs (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA) as well as uncompressed PCM soundtracks, things which are not possible using TOS/optical audio connections. Many PS3 owners, such as ND40oz apparently, are enjoying these advantages in new games such as Resistance: The Fall of Man and on blu-ray movies, for example Crank and Casino Royale. This improved audio quality is only possible via a HDMI connection, something which the Xbox360 lacked until recently. Understandably, there was excitement when we heard about the Xbox360 elite, but if this limitation is even remotely true, we will be left wondering: why?
 
I can do 5.1 uncompressed PCM on my PS3 with a 1.2 HDMI Sony receiver. I don't see why the Xbox 360 couldn't do that also.

I don't need the HDMI for my 360 anyways because I can do 1080p over component with my Samsung HDTV
 
PikachuMan said:
Only 2 channels uncompressed? Do you have a link (not one dated April 1st, please ;) ), because that seems really odd. Why would they gimp it like that? I call shenanigans. Lies, half truths.
Click to expand...

Check out amirms post, number 3221. The spring update sounds nice, but that's about it. Nice of him to suggest we just buy a Toshiba A2 if we want PCM 5.1 with HD-DVD.

On another note, resistance rocks with the uncompressed audio.
 
Somewhere in the thread linked above amirm also explains that a portion of the data path for audio inside the 360 is too narrow to support LPCM. So while HDMI 1.2 should support it, the 360 is not able to handle it. Maybe they were lazy and just tacked on an HDMI converter that takes the existing data path for the optical out and combines it with the video for the HDMI support.
 
IcedEmotion said:
Somewhere in the thread linked above amirm also explains that a portion of the data path for audio inside the 360 is too narrow to support LPCM. So while HDMI 1.2 should support it, the 360 is not able to handle it. Maybe they were lazy and just tacked on an HDMI converter that takes the existing data path for the optical out and combines it with the video for the HDMI support.
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That's the impression I got too. Sounds like it would have been a total motherboard redesign to fix it. Shame too, since they're pushing the whole media receiver feature, it would be nice if it would have supported it. The main problem is toslink doesn't have the bandwidth to support it either, so without another hardware revision, we're out of luck. There are a lot of good posts in the AVSforum thread about it.
 
Stupac said:
I can do 5.1 uncompressed PCM on my PS3 with a 1.2 HDMI Sony receiver. I don't see why the Xbox 360 couldn't do that also.

I don't need the HDMI for my 360 anyways because I can do 1080p over component with my Samsung HDTV
Click to expand...

the 360 cannot do the advanced audio codec’s.

There is a lot of misinformation or simply not enough information regarding the elite, hdmi, and why it is missing features.

The 360 will not support 5.1/7.1 LPCM / Dolby HD / DTS-HD tracks which are all lossless or uncompressed tracks/sound. (2.1 LPCM can be passed through a normal Toslink while the multi-pcm tracks cannot, I suspect the reason being is either a lack of interest to install these features by MS, or a bandwidth limitation (reason being the data streamed off of the HD DVD disc is done via USB 2.0 which maxes out at 480mbs while HDMi 1.3 maxes out at 10.2 Gbps and the 1.2 spec is not far behind that). If the former is true then MS needed to have the HD DVD drive built in which they did not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10176889&&#post10176889

Amir knows MS very well :cool: and can sometimes answer questions.
 
Aerobahn said:
bandwidth limitation (reason being the data streamed off of the HD DVD disc is done via USB 2.0 which maxes out at 480mbs while HDMi 1.3 maxes out at 10.2 Gbps and the 1.2 spec is not far behind that). If the former is true then MS needed to have the HD DVD drive built in which they did not.
Click to expand...

Eh, I think you are confused. The HD-DVD add-on only needs to send compressed video (either as MPEG2, MPEG4/AVC or VC-1 running @ 30 mbps max), and audio (which can either be 640kbps (for DD), 1.5mbps (for DTS) or ~5 mbps for a lossless audio track (Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio)). i.e., the maximum data rate needed by that drive is around 36 mbps.

That's well within the limits of USB 2.0's sustained transfer rate (which is far less than the 480mbps burst rate, but still more than enough for the HD-DVD add-on).

Of course, once those signals get decoded, it's going to be a hell of alot more than USB's capacity, so you need the bandwidth of HDMI or DVI to carry them to the TV (or just use analog connections =\).
 
PikachuMan said:
Eh, I think you are confused. The HD-DVD add-on only needs to send compressed video (either as MPEG2, MPEG4/AVC or VC-1 running @ 30 mbps max), and audio (which can either be 640kbps (for DD), 1.5mbps (for DTS) or ~5 mbps for a lossless audio track (Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio)). i.e., the maximum data rate needed by that drive is around 36 mbps.

That's well within the limits of USB 2.0's sustained transfer rate (which is far less than the 480mbps burst rate, but still more than enough for the HD-DVD add-on).

Of course, once those signals get decoded, it's going to be a hell of alot more than USB's capacity, so you need the bandwidth of HDMI or DVI to carry them to the TV (or just use analog connections =\).
Click to expand...

Thank you for the clairification, then as to why MS left this out is beyond me.
 
Amir from AVS stated that there was a hardware limitation so any hope of a firmware fix is gone.
 
Aerobahn said:
the 360 cannot do the advanced audio codec’s.

There is a lot of misinformation or simply not enough information regarding the elite, hdmi, and why it is missing features.

The 360 will not support 5.1/7.1 LPCM / Dolby HD / DTS-HD tracks which are all lossless or uncompressed tracks/sound. (2.1 LPCM can be passed through a normal Toslink while the multi-pcm tracks cannot, I suspect the reason being is either a lack of interest to install these features by MS, or a bandwidth limitation (reason being the data streamed off of the HD DVD disc is done via USB 2.0 which maxes out at 480mbs while HDMi 1.3 maxes out at 10.2 Gbps and the 1.2 spec is not far behind that). If the former is true then MS needed to have the HD DVD drive built in which they did not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10176889&&#post10176889

Amir knows MS very well :cool: and can sometimes answer questions.
Click to expand...

HDMI 1.2 can do LPCM perfectly for me. Must be the 360 that can't do. Another reason not to get the Elite for me.
 
the elite not having 1.3 has nothing to do w/ getting truehd or dts hd ma. hdmi 1.1 or better is all thats required. im assuming its either a licensing issue or hardware limitation why the 360 addon doesnt do it.

still sucks tho, id get the elite just for the audio codec, but its not THAT big a deal.

a lot of misinformation is being spread around about what can and cant be done in regards to lossless audio and hdmi. check dolby and dts's websites for the facts, not what someone who throws a bunch of acronyms around on a forum says. in brief:

To receive lossless audio ALL that is required is

1) a player with the proper codecs
2) a player with HDMI 1.1+ OR analog outs
3) a receiver with HDMI 1.1+ OR analog ins

The only time HDMI 1.3 is needed is if the player cant decode TrueHD, etc. Then the player AND the receiver needs 1.3 and the receiver needs to have the decoders.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-existing-receiver.php
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-new-receiver.php
 
ND40oz said:
Jeez, I love how people just defend a position to defend it. If you don't have a receiver that supports HDMI switching and uncompressed audio through HDMI then good for you. I do and I wish microsoft would support it. I planned on picking one up on the 29th, but now I am reconsidering and may just stick with my premium. I still wouldn't mind getting it just so it matches everything else though. There's a pretty sizeable thread over at AVSforum too, so obviously I'm not the only idiot out here that cares. Check out the results of the poll.
Click to expand...


I have a receiver that does HDMI switching and takes uncompressed audio through the HDMI. I couldn't care less whether I have to hook up 1 or 2 cables to my receiver. Most people aren't going to care if they have to hook up the second cable. I only want the HDMI because my receiver won't convert 1080p from component to HDMI, it will only convert 1080i or lower to HDMI. :(

That said, I could connect the component directly to my TV and get 1080p, but I like having my receiver convert everything over to HDMI and only having to run 1 cable to the TV. I don't like having to change sources on my TV.
 
ne0-reloaded said:
the elite not having 1.3 has nothing to do w/ getting truehd or dts hd ma. hdmi 1.1 or better is all thats required. im assuming its either a licensing issue or hardware limitation why the 360 addon doesnt do it.

still sucks tho, id get the elite just for the audio codec, but its not THAT big a deal.

a lot of misinformation is being spread around about what can and cant be done in regards to lossless audio and hdmi. check dolby and dts's websites for the facts, not what someone who throws a bunch of acronyms around on a forum says. in brief:

To receive lossless audio ALL that is required is

1) a player with the proper codecs
2) a player with HDMI 1.1+ OR analog outs
3) a receiver with HDMI 1.1+ OR analog ins

The only time HDMI 1.3 is needed is if the player cant decode TrueHD, etc. Then the player AND the receiver needs 1.3 and the receiver needs to have the decoders.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-existing-receiver.php
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-new-receiver.php
Click to expand...

all true, I still wonder what the hardware limitation is if what amir said was true.
 
brom42 said:
I have a receiver that does HDMI switching and takes uncompressed audio through the HDMI. I couldn't care less whether I have to hook up 1 or 2 cables to my receiver. Most people aren't going to care if they have to hook up the second cable. I only want the HDMI because my receiver won't convert 1080p from component to HDMI, it will only convert 1080i or lower to HDMI. :(

That said, I could connect the component directly to my TV and get 1080p, but I like having my receiver convert everything over to HDMI and only having to run 1 cable to the TV. I don't like having to change sources on my TV.
Click to expand...

The problem is you'll care when you have to hook up the 6-8 additional analogue cables to get the uncompressed audio when the source is doing your decoding, think SACD before Denon-Link or HDMI. Toslink and Coax don't support multi-channel uncompressed audio, so you won't be hooking up an additional digital cable, it will be multiple additional analogue cables. Granted, that won't happen with the 360, since it won't be doing the decoding and outputting 8 channel analogue audio, instead you just don't have the option.
 
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