WoW crazt talent tree changes coming in Cataclysm

[Zorachus]

Man the amount of crying over raid epics being replaced is nothing new, but wow is it annoying every time an expansion is on the horizon.

fast forward to summer 2012...

Man why even kill Deathwing for his ilvl380 gear it'll just be replaced by some lvl85 rat dropping a green almost as good in The Hellplains of Argus or whatever xpac is after cata.

Gear is meant to be replaced, if you want something you'll keep till they close the servers go for mounts, tabards, pets, etc...

I have no problem with new gear coming out. That's a big reason I play WoW for that next higher pc.

But I just don't like the idea of high end Raid Epics being replaced by few level higher blues with better stats. Would be cool if Epic 80 was still killer through to 84/85. But reports of blue 78 Cataclysm gear better than purple epic 80 WoLTK gear is messed up.

Wasn't the best top of the line 60 Epics from original WoW still bad ass up to 68/70 ? Gave you a good 10 levels to last.
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[Ezteh]

nope I replaced my tier 2 around 63-64

people with tier 3 maybe 65-66

 

[radioactivez0r]

Why not just start everyone at level 80?

Yeah, that's the same thing.

 

[Dallows]

Yeah, that's the same thing.

lol.

 

[ryken]

edit: Back in classic, healers used to talk about efficiency. Like, using Heal (Rank 2) instead of your max rank because it was a good balance between throughput and HP per mana. People also used to care about being low on the overhealing meters. That all went away when Blizzard made all ranks cost the same, but it was another dimension to being a healer.

makes me feel old because this was still how it was done when I played overhealing was a sin as was casting flash heal (real healers timed it right with rank 2 heal and greater heal)

 

[Krenum]

This sounds ok to me, there are just way to many skills and talents in the game nowdays, I dont even use half of em.

 

[zoobaby]

nope I replaced my tier 2 around 63-64

people with tier 3 maybe 65-66

On my resto druid, I had T2 for the set bonus for a couple of bosses in Kara, yeah some idividual pieces were better...but the set bonuses were that good. Until they got nerfed because people were bitching about wearing BWL gear still. And some of the BWL trinkets were BIS until nerfed.

Nax Tier 3 gear lasted some folks until the final bosses in Kara. I know our tank used his T3 shoulders for a long time. I also used a few feral pieces from Nax and AQ40 until Kara...Ghoul Skin Tunic was was very comparable to early 70 epics.

 

[ScretHate]

Having your talents maxed out at 50 will make leveling an alt much easier.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

That does kind of piss me off a bit. I mean for player who busted their balls, or tits on grinding out awesome raid gear iLevel 264/277, and spent alot of time to learn the encounters in those 25man dungeons, and get truly Epic gear. But, then to be replaced from an easy Level 81+ five man Instance boss is not cool.

Why even bother playing the Raids right now ? Don't even bother for that new iLevel 277 Ruby gear, total waste of time. If killing a Level 81 rat, will drop a green with close stats

That's the difference between utilitarian players and "real" players. The utilitarians see raiding as a tool to get better gear. The slippery slope argument eventually leads to "why play the entire expansion when the next one is just going to replace all that gear?"

"Real" players genuinely enjoy the game for its content, and will go headstrong into the latest and greatest regardless of the reward or level of challenge. After 2 expansions, some of the most active and proficient players I've seen since vanilla are still playing. It's obviously not just because they want loot that will last them 2 expansions.

Greens of the next expansion historically had higher raw stats than epics of the previous game. Most of the time, that's not a good thing. You can either have a lot of Stamina, Strength and Crit from a green, or a little bit less of each, and have haste, attack power, sockets, set bonuses and enchants. Most people wouldn't even bother enchanting their greens, so greens aren't worthwhile most of the time.

That said, I'm in the beta now, and I am replacing a few pieces of my non-set 251 gear for greens/blues. They're hard to come by though, and I have to enchant them to be worth their replacement. I probably won't see anything worth replacing set bonuses until 85.

 

[Daggah]

Am I wasting time upgrading my Tankadin ? Just got back into WoW this month after not playing since Winter. My Parading had all iLevel 245 gear, now running ICC as Off Tank, picking up a few 251 and 264 pcs. But with Cataclysm so close to official release won't greens dropping off a rat be better in Level 81+ zones ?
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Admit it, you typed this with one hand.

 

[Reus]

Is it just me, or does Cataclysm feel more like a reduction than an expansion? Everything is being simplified, no new continent - just recycled Azeroth with some bits blown off, same ancient graphics engine, only 5 new levels, etc etc. I have played WoW since launch, and I do agree that a lot of fat needed to be trimmed, but something about Cata really makes me feel like they have run out of ideas.

 

[WasntMe]

Is it just me, or does Cataclysm feel more like a reduction than an expansion? Everything is being simplified, no new continent - just recycled Azeroth with some bits blown off, same ancient graphics engine, only 5 new levels, etc etc. I have played WoW since launch, and I do agree that a lot of fat needed to be trimmed, but something about Cata really makes me feel like they have run out of ideas.

The changes going into this expansion will probably be bigger than any of the previous expansions. I love that they are re-doing the old world. I don't want another Dalaran or Shatt.

They are following lore from the books to get new expansions, and this one is no different. It's a great opportunity to make adjustments to older really bad quest lines and areas.

I do like the dx11 graphic changes, let's just hope it's more than just water/lava effects.

 

[Ritorix]

It definitely feels like an epic expansion. There may not be a new continent, but there is all the underground and underwater stuff plus major changes to two continents including areas like Hyjal and Uldum. The level cap increase is the least interesting of the changes, they could have increased it by a token single level if they made all new content to go with it.

Also we finally, finally get rated battlegrounds. Queue up as a group and fight other pre-mades. Huge. So there will probably be a huge rise in pvp guilds.

The talent thing is fine with me. WoW underwent talent bloat since launch, now we are just going back to how many talents we used to have. At 85 you end up with the same abilities anyway, plus or minus a few.

 

[Reus]

The changes going into this expansion will probably be bigger than any of the previous expansions. I love that they are re-doing the old world. I don't want another Dalaran or Shatt.

They are following lore from the books to get new expansions, and this one is no different. It's a great opportunity to make adjustments to older really bad quest lines and areas.

I do like the dx11 graphic changes, let's just hope it's more than just water/lava effects.

You make some good points. I guess my perception is this isn't so much an expansion, more a rework of what is already in place, and that makes it appear like less than it really is. And yes, I really hope the DX11 goes way beyond mere lava and water. I really wish they would just give in and make some much higher-res texture settings for those with machines that can handle it. I don't mind the cartoony feel at all, but things really look ugly up close, especially the trees and vegetation...uggh!

 

[Zorachus]

You make some good points. I guess my perception is this isn't so much an expansion, more a rework of what is already in place, and that makes it appear like less than it really is. And yes, I really hope the DX11 goes way beyond mere lava and water. I really wish they would just give in and make some much higher-res texture settings for those with machines that can handle it. I don't mind the cartoony feel at all, but things really look ugly up close, especially the trees and vegetation...uggh!

I agree on the graphics. Of course game play is #1 over graphics, but man this 6+ year old game engine is getting old fast. Sure they have made minor improvements with each expansion, but still...

Cataclysm is almost like a WoW 2.0, redoing the old world with all new quests and zones, adding in several higher level zones, etc...With all these changes Blizzard could have gone balls out and created an all new game engine, and repackaged it as the sequel to WoW.

Don't even give me that crap line, that the game needs to run on lowbie systems too, not just people with Eyefinity setups. I disagree, for one main reason. Back when the game was released in 2004, it was actually pretty hard to run maxed out with all options, and full AA/AF, at high resolution. So Blizzard didn't seem to care then when the game launched about the demanding graphics for it's time. But you had options to run low, medium, or high graphics. Why not do the same again, just with 2010 graphics ?

My main beef with the graphics, is the ground textures, and hills/mountains look so lame, and trees. Even buildings and castles look very bland with little to no texture detail. And all the original races need to be revamped to look at least as good the Blood Elf's and Drainey. Compare a Night Elf next to a Blood Elf, and it is vastly different.

And open up the view distance to be much further out as an option. I also hate it when your walking in the grass, and the stuff way ahead of you is not there, until you come closer to it, then it appears Make it an option to always have the grass there, even far out ahead of you.

I guess I don't really need a flow blown new game engine, but just a much enhanced engine upgrade, beyond the new water effects. Use the same upgrade to the water, and do that to the ground, and trees.

 

[utfreak]

I stopped playing but I figure I will start again in Cata. The talent tree revision as well as the zone revision will do it for me. All the more reason to level a new toon.

 

[zoobaby]

I stopped playing but I figure I will start again in Cata. The talent tree revision as well as the zone revision will do it for me. All the more reason to level a new toon.

Yeah, I've been leveling a Mage and Pally through old content for nostalgia. When Cata hits, I'll then level 2 new toons (1 horde 1 alliance) to see how the changes are.

 

[RanceJustice]

Does anyone know if Outland or Northrend will get any kind of makeover for Cata? Those in the beta shed and light? I heard that Northrend will be getting a "post Lich King" makeover of sorts, but nothing about Outland?

 

[Zorachus]

Does anyone know if Outland or Northrend will get any kind of makeover for Cata? Those in the beta shed and light? I heard that Northrend will be getting a "post Lich King" makeover of sorts, but nothing about Outland?

Curious myself, but I have not heard anything about the expansion continents getting redone, or much of anything at all ?

I am wondering what the hell Blizzard will do for a 4th expansion ? I mean after Cataclysm it seems the game is done, who wants a 3rd new continent for Level 85-90 ? So you will quest from 1-60 in Azeroth, then head to Outland, and to Northrend, then back to Azeroth again for 80-85, and then off to another new continent again for max level 90


What would really be fresh is instead of always adding some new 5 man dungeons or Raid in a major patch, how about add one or two new zones as islands close to the Azeroth continents, that will get us up to Level 87 or so, add those like once per year, that would be original ? Then a year after that, add another 2 or 3 zones attached to Azeroth, from like 87-90 or so ?

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

And open up the view distance to be much further out as an option. I also hate it when your walking in the grass, and the stuff way ahead of you is not there, until you come closer to it, then it appears Make it an option to always have the grass there, even far out ahead of you.

You should have seen the ground clutter radius back then. It was probably less than 10 yards around you. It was also less "cluttery." It was only later when they extended the radius and increased the density.

As for the expansion feeling like a "reduction" My current impressions is that its on a much, much larger scale than the previous 2 so far. I'm not sure about the end-game content because it's not out yet. But just questing through 2 of the zones, it has a massive feeling to it. Vashj'ir has a great opening sequence, and an epic conclusion. I usually despise underwater areas, but it was probably the most adventurous zone yet. I mean, take a look at the size of the zone: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc...taclysm_worldmaps/cataclysm/12479/Azeroth.jpg

I've done a number of Deepholm quests so far, but I leveled up to 83 (the current cap) and will hold off on continuing until it's raised. It's a pretty beautiful zone as well.

Does anyone know if Outland or Northrend will get any kind of makeover for Cata? Those in the beta shed and light? I heard that Northrend will be getting a "post Lich King" makeover of sorts, but nothing about Outland?

As far as I'm aware. Outland and Northrend will (expectantly) remain untouched. The streamlined questing flow really started in TBC, so it's much more acceptable today than the vanilla quests were. All "Post Lich King" storylines and quests occur in the main world for players leveling up.

 

[Ritorix]

What would really be fresh is instead of always adding some new 5 man dungeons or Raid in a major patch, how about add one or two new zones as islands close to the Azeroth continents, that will get us up to Level 87 or so, add those like once per year, that would be original ? Then a year after that, add another 2 or 3 zones attached to Azeroth, from like 87-90 or so ?

This is pretty much exactly what they do, in concept, by resetting gear levels between each release of new raid content. Gear levels pretty much are levels, and when they add something new like Icecrown and the 3 normal dungeons and huge raid instance it included, its like a mini-expansion that raises the powerlevel of the whole game.

 

[Actuary]

It would also make low level play more interesting, if classes got more of their useful tools early on in the leveling process.

+1. This is what has kept me from going back and making other classes that I didn't play a lot originally. The first 30 levels as a shaman were awful.

 

[WasntMe]

+1. This is what has kept me from going back and making other classes that I didn't play a lot originally. The first 30 levels as a shaman were awful.

First 15 levels as a Paladin were AWFUL! It took me 6 months because it was the alt I went back to the least. I'd get bored after 15 minutes. HATED IT. Pally is still only level 17.

 

[Actuary]

First 15 levels as a Paladin were AWFUL! It took me 6 months because it was the alt I went back to the least. I'd get bored after 15 minutes. HATED IT. Pally is still only level 17.

Early priest leveling was pretty dreadful as well, if I remember right. Didn't pick up until mind flay at level 20.

 

[Dallows]

God forbid you have to put anything into something to get something in return.

 

[zoobaby]

Early priest leveling was pretty dreadful as well, if I remember right. Didn't pick up until mind flay at level 20.

I'll toss in there a druid to 20 used to be painful, really painful. I think to level 20 it might be the worst, though priest and mage leveling was a bit painful as well.

 

[WasntMe]

I'll toss in there a druid to 20 used to be painful, really painful. I think to level 20 it might be the worst, though priest and mage leveling was a bit painful as well.

Easiest by far IMO was a hunter. Will be even easier in Cata with hunters having a pet at level 1.

 

[Actuary]

Easiest by far IMO was a hunter. Will be even easier in Cata with hunters having a pet at level 1.

Agreed. A list of the easiest/less boring leveling to level 20/30 to the worst would look something like:

1. Hunter
2. Warlock
3. Warrior
4. Rogue
5. Mage
6. Druid
7. Paladin
8. Shaman
9. Priest

 

[mct]

God forbid you have to put anything into something to get something in return.

God forbid I play a game to have fun. Blizzard is making the leveling experience more enjoyable especially for the early levels which can be quite boring for certain classes. I don't understand why you are so against these changes. A game is not suppose to be like work. Games are meant to be fun. A lot of people did not enjoy the early levels. I know that I did not enjoy them on my paladin.

 

[zoobaby]

Agreed. A list of the easiest/less boring leveling to level 20/30 to the worst would look something like:

1. Hunter
2. Warlock
3. Warrior
4. Rogue
5. Mage
6. Druid
7. Paladin
8. Shaman
9. Priest

I'd largely agree with the top half, though I'd put the bottom half as:

1. Hunter
2. Warlock
3. Warrior
4. Rogue
5. Shaman
6. Mage
7. Priest
8. Druid
9. Paladin

Mage just has to much downtime in lower levels and to fragile.

 

[Dallows]

God forbid I play a game to have fun. Blizzard is making the leveling experience more enjoyable especially for the early levels which can be quite boring for certain classes. I don't understand why you are so against these changes. A game is not suppose to be like work. Games are meant to be fun. A lot of people did not enjoy the early levels. I know that I did not enjoy them on my paladin.

This is just the continual consolization and dumbing down of everything. I'm not a fan of that sorry. You don't want to actually work for the character. You just want all the epics and end game spells/abilities.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a game to be fun. But you can't expect everything to be handed to you. Well at least that's how it WAS. Leveling sucked and it was just dealt with. Now everything is a rush to 80 to farm epics. How is that fun?

Also. I have a lot more fond memories of leveling with friends than doing end-game with friends.

 

[zoobaby]

This is just the continual consolization and dumbing down of everything. I'm not a fan of that sorry. You don't want to actually work for the character. You just want all the epics and end game spells/abilities.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a game to be fun. But you can't expect everything to be handed to you. Well at least that's how it WAS. Leveling sucked and it was just dealt with. Now everything is a rush to 80 to farm epics. How is that fun?

Also. I have a lot more fond memories of leveling with friends than doing end-game with friends.

On release and for the first year or two, leveling was huge part of the game and was fun. Now that the game is older, people have multiple max level, BC level, and classic level toons, the fun part is at max level not so much in leveling. While there are a lot of altoholics like me who still enjoy leveling toons, some just feel that leveling is a necessary evil to get to the real game.

Face it, until cata hits, the leveling process has not changed much. In BC we got 2 new and well done starter zones, a filler quest hub for the 30s, but nothing else new since then. It is old and feels old, which is why people loathe it.

 

[Dallows]

On release and for the first year or two, leveling was huge part of the game and was fun. Now that the game is older, people have multiple max level, BC level, and classic level toons, the fun part is at max level not so much in leveling. While there are a lot of altoholics like me who still enjoy leveling toons, some just feel that leveling is a necessary evil to get to the real game.

Face it, until cata hits, the leveling process has not changed much. In BC we got 2 new and well done starter zones, a filler quest hub for the 30s, but nothing else new since then. It is old and feels old, which is why people loathe it.

It is old. But that's not the issue. The issue is people who feel the need to have 10 level 80s and don't feel like starting from 0. It's a somewhat understandable complaint. But I don't believe the fix is to just give the lower classes more available spells. What am I going to to be running around spamming blast wave or something?

Guess we'll see what happens.

 

[Shalafi]

I would disagree with the list of classes that are hard/boring to play, Paladin dead last? You gotta be kidding me.

I did 1 to 80 in a month without any heirloom gear or any recruit a friend stuff, it wasn't even hard at all, this was last year in mid January 2009 to mid Feb 2009.

Along the way to 80, I stayed ret for most of it and did some tanking at level 75+ and respecced enough to fund an epic mount, something like 80+ respecs as I played all 3 talent trees in raids.

But anyway, more to the point, I'd say that Paladin is the easiest class there is to level right now that isn't named Hunter or Warlock.

Also, I do agree from firsthand experience that priests are a pain to level, that's mostly because their mana gets burned out way too fast, especially in instances. But the flip side is if you choose to heal your queues for dungeons are a lot shorter but still lagging behind tanks. If you level with a friend and have them tank and you priesty heal, that's a good fast leveling team, since you can dungeon all you want.

other thoughts, I have a rogue at 80, warlock at 80, paladin at 80, priest and warrior at 71, a 71 dk, a 53 ally warrior, a 26 ally priest, a 45 Shaman which I feel disinterested in playing, and I'm considering leveling a hunter or mage next once I get this DK i'm leveling at 65 to 80, planning on whoring the shit out of AV weekend at the end of the month to level from 70 to 80 in 2 days, since he's Alliance side.

I'm considering a mage, they seem really easy to level now especially with the added regeneration and lower mana cost of spells. Mages are only fragile if you can't play them properly and use their CC effectively. I have yet to play a druid at a high level, I do have a 64 mage though, I could faction change him, I'll hav eto consider that.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

It is old. But that's not the issue. The issue is people who feel the need to have 10 level 80s and don't feel like starting from 0. It's a somewhat understandable complaint. But I don't believe the fix is to just give the lower classes more available spells. What am I going to to be running around spamming blast wave or something?

Guess we'll see what happens.

The purpose of the talent revamp isn't to entice altaholics to level up their toons, but to get newbies past a critical point where they decide whether they want to continue the game or not (happens around level 10). All you're really getting is a couple "spec defining" abilities at an early level so newbies can understand their identity right away, or much sooner than before. It's not like a mage's Arcane Barrage will be doing thousands of damage at level 10 or something. The revamped zones also seem to be more fleshed out than I initially assumed. There's some neat quest scenes that I've seen people post on youtube, and it's on par with the modern questing experience. Overall, its amazing how much more newbie friendly it is than before. I dunno if it's easier, but there's a lot more notifications with each level up which veterans can promptly ignore.

 

[Daggah]

God forbid you have to put anything into something to get something in return.

Need I point out that ultimately, WoW is a game? It's not supposed to be WORK.

 

[veterator]

Well I remember how much more work it was post max level in BC.. It was fun at first but after awhile it became a lot of replaying the same old stuff to pick up specific items you lacked. Then when you get into the new dungeons you repeat the fun/work cycle, but it just seemed to get shorter on the fun part each cycle. Then PVP slowly went the work route as people figured out maximum way to get points, sold teams, etc. and you'd buy some armor, then a week or two later the new stuff would come out and the armor you just bought sucks in comparison but cost the same as the new. And the grind begins again.

I found leveling from 30-50 pretty fun, 50-60 was a little better, and 60-65 sucked until you replaced all your armor with BC stuff..then the quests became more fun and less "jesus this guy hits hard". Got slower and more tedious as it got closer to 70 but it wasn't unbearable. Then 70 hit and you were basically reset to zero because now your playing with people whose stats dwarf yours...fun fun.

But 1 to 30.....knowing how much more fun it is in certain zones and ranges...was just torture. And that's something everyone has to play at least once on their way up. So if they have an especially hard time or pick the wrong class because they couldn't tell because most of the classes are really generic for the first 30. Anything they can do to clear it up and make it more in line with later experiences is needed.

I've always found it odd that you had to run quite a bit for barrens quests and the ashenvale (I think) forest was a lot of running, Desolace was tonnnns of running. Then when you get your mount (which has changed since I played) you were in STV which is very little running to get to quest locations and Feralas which is very little running for the majority of the quests. But then you look over into 1k needles..tons of running. All the "near mount" or "mounted" level zones at that time the quests were centralized you could complete half a dozen at a time, prior to that you ran 5 times as far for 3 quests and they were all in different spots usually.

So you have pretty boring classes, a lot of running, rather boring quests (Shaman totems and druid forms will make you want to stab someone if you're on a PVP server and don't know exactly what to do), rewards that aren't steady progressions (BC newbie has better quest layout/rewards/stuff than others), and the myriad of other under utilized sections of zones where there's this huge chunk of land and 1 quest for it.

I still recall on my warrior doing this quest in barrens I hadn't ever seen before thinking it was new....it took me forever to find the thing I needed to kill. When I finally turned it in, I got a white named 2h sword that sucked worse than the one hand I had gotten from a quest in the same area...apparently it was a OLD OLD quest that never got looked at again. It was funny because it was an obvious throwback...but I think we've all seen MMO quests where the rewards didn't match the effort and time investment and that gets really old to the point that if it happens enough you say screw it and find an MMO that seems more in line with expectations.

And the "achievers" of WoW are not going to be worrying about 1-30 being fun or boring...or even 1 to (max level - 5) because they just want to hit max and start the grind there ASAP. The people who were turned away from MMOs like Everquest on their first day of play will play the trial of WoW and go ...why is this fun? I think the max level during trial is..10 or 12?

1-30 has just simply been ignored because people don't spend very much time there, but it definitely has an impact on new players who are trying WoW without a friend to encourage them or show them better locations. And it's definitely a factor for some who want to make an alt, because if you've played the newbie zones through once.......again is just tedious since the classes are so damn similar in their archetypes.

 

[WasntMe]

I would disagree with the list of classes that are hard/boring to play, Paladin dead last? You gotta be kidding me.

I did 1 to 80 in a month without any heirloom gear or any recruit a friend stuff, it wasn't even hard at all, this was last year in mid January 2009 to mid Feb 2009.

I never said it was hard, I said it was boring as fuck. I have done every class now but Paladin was the most boring to me. All you do is smack shit with your 2hander until level 15. It sucked and I can't convince myself to continue.

 

[veterator]

I never said it was hard, I said it was boring as fuck. I have done every class now but Paladin was the most boring to me. All you do is smack shit with your 2hander until level 15. It sucked and I can't convince myself to continue.

Paladin is one of those classes where you need to dual box to make it interesting. I put a paladin and mage together...pull a big group of stuff with the paladin, then area effect with the mage until the mage started getting hit, then heal with the paladin while I kept AOEing with mage.

But most of the classes were pretty dull for at least 20 levels and probably till 30...combo of weakness, lack of options, and just knowing it's more interesting later made it more tedious.

 

[KamelRed]

I never said it was hard, I said it was boring as fuck. I have done every class now but Paladin was the most boring to me. All you do is smack shit with your 2hander until level 15. It sucked and I can't convince myself to continue.

Still for me playing a new pally with a heirloom 2h weapon + crusader enchant was pretty sweet and OP.

Before Wotlk came along with heirloom gear and small changes to starting classes, lvling a Rogue was pretty rough for the first 20 levels.
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