WoW Classic 8/27. Beta is May 22–Thurs May 23

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Dan, May 14, 2019.

  1. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,030
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    I played WoW at/very near to original launch. I kept my subscription active for years and even keep it today (though I play less as of the most recent expansion for a variety of reasons - mostly non-game-related); Hell, I even have one of those statues they sent to long-term subscribers (its a mini version of the orc mounted on wolf that is visible in front of Blizz's campus if I recall). I have more good memories of WoW than most players I wager... but I am not not really enthused for Classic.

    Maybe it is because my first heavily invested MMO was EverQuest, maybe there are other reasons, but I would much rather that Blizz spend money bettering WoW as it is and could be, rather than focusing on its past. Going back to WoW Classic can't give you back your memories, your wonder etc.... all it can give is mechanics of the past. I've seen LOTS of people seem to mix up the two - for instance those who for some reason hate cross-realm grouping, the Dungeon/Raid finder, or the Raid Finder level difficulty. These are the people who claim it "ruined" the game by making it "too easy", but more than anything I see people relate "difficulty" to what is actually "tedium". What changed? The removal of tedium meant that (for often unrelated reasons) people saw their enjoyment dip, so they assumed it was the tedium that kept it there! All three of those things I mentioned previously some say "ruined WoW by harming the community feel" - now consider that when cross realm zones/grouping came you could still group with those of your own, that you didn't need to use the dungeon/raid finder to find a group, and you had literally 3 harder difficulties (ie Normal, Heroic, Mythic) for Raids besides raid finder - so the game didn't "take anything away", it simply gave others the chance to enjoy things without such tedium. A lot of the "difficulty" of old school raiding wasn't the encounters - many of them were FAR simpler than later expansions, tank and spank with one or two other mechanics though there are a few exceptions - it was the organization and time commitment! Getting 40 people together, getting into a group, getting everyone there, logistics checks, gear and balance checks, and simply getting a large group of people to listen up and of course, deal with potential drama!

    Many (but not all) who espouse the idea the game was "ruined for being too easy/good ol days" seem to fall into the category I call "exclusionists" - The ones who get their enjoyment specifically because content is designed to be inaccessible to all but the most hardcore like them. I watched this demographic ruin more than a few titles (ie Wildstar was incredibly promising, but catering to these people basically took it down the tubes). It isn't enough for them to have Mythic difficulty raids with achievements and gear that show they defeated them, they don't like Raid Finder because "peons who don't work for it" get to see the raid and its story (which is usually a major part of an expansion's storyline) to completion and get rewarded (even though less so). Lots of things come down to this and I find so many of those pining for Classic who are not simply looking back for fond memories, fall into this category.

    However, I will say that there is another discussion to be had - there IS something to say for WELL DESIGNED content that takes more time or whatnot. For instance, during its heyday EverQuest had some phenomenal systems - NPC alignment system for nearly every NPC, unique racial and class abilities that were bonuses and interdependent, and some of the most amazing zone design (for its game structure) I've ever seen. There was no loading screen when you got on a boat, there was a 5+ minute trip in a separate zone but this had a purpose as there were islands with rare, difficult mobs spawning upon them! One forest was a newbie garden with bees and rats during the day, but spawned near-max-level undead at night. Some zones were just huge in scale, taking time to run through them but it was in service of other game elements! There were even secret passages and hidden doors (some only accessible by those with keys or unlocked by Rogues); I can recall that in the major human cities, the "evil" professions (ie Necromancer, Shadow Knight etc) had their trainers and related NPCs in secret areas beneath the city - end up in there as a good guy and you'll be in trouble! I mention all this to say that there is a difference between "time consuming yet good design in service of a real objective" and "grind, tedium, simply drawing out playtime requirements etc". While I loved these systems in EverQuest, they also had a lot of the latter that I'd never like to go back to again - Lack of instanced content (at the time) meaning camping waiting for spawns, all enemy combat was made with a D&D style group in mind so most classes couldn't solo against an on-level enemy, XP loss to the point of DELEVELING upon death, "hell levels" that cost twice or three times as much XP as they should just because, All your belongings dropped onto your body when you died and you needed to physically get back to it in order to loot it - all before it decomposes forever in 72 hours - a big problem if you died on a raid or somewhere remote! If EQ removed these penalites, I'd still enjoy the great things about the game just that much - I don't assume that my fun was because of the "hell levels" or the nearly "game as a job" level dedication to grind necessary to really succeed!

    I know I've written a lot and don't get me wrong, I think people going to play on a WoW Classic private server for nostalgic fun or those who are specifically enamored with that timeperiod is fine, but I really would rather Blizz put their time and money towards making the game better instead of looking backward. There are still a LOT of things I'd like to see in WoW both to be "fixed" and just plain added (ie such as a real housing system like that in Final Fantasy XIV), big and small alike. I don't want to see Acti-Blizz dealing with the criticism or issues with WoW at current by looking backward.
     
    xmadror, Jelly, ThatITGuy and 2 others like this.
  2. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    I stopped playing WoW a few years back, life stuff just made it not fun, but Blizzard would have to be paying me to spend my days dragging people through MC or god forbid Naxx again, I have 0 desire to ever again try to corral that many unrelated people it was always a 6 hour affair at the least to clear those places and just thinking about it makes me cringe.
     
    Armenius and Pieter3dnow like this.
  3. Neslepax

    Neslepax Gawd

    Messages:
    746
    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    While I think that the gaming population is a little more skilled these days and boss mechanics back in vanilla are rather simple by today's standards, it is the amount of time it will take to take people through content that will scare most of them off. The moment they realize that you have to clear trash for 30-45min before a boss, get in a few attempts, and then deal with respawns, they will ragequit. And while boss mechanics might be easier, their classes will be far more restrictive in terms of what abilities they have (what, not everyone gets a Get Out of Jail Free Card in vanilla, or temporary damage reduction?). I see casters going OOM and bitching about it, healers not realizing that weaker spells are more efficient to use, DPS that pull aggro and wipe the raid, etc., and ragequit. You had to have a different mindset in vanilla to really enjoy it, and there really isn't any modern comparison to it. As others have said, just having the lifestyle to give up 6 hours straight doing Dire Maul or BRD so everyone can get their various quests done, is a thing of the past. No one really does that anymore, or even expects it in games.
     
    Armenius, xmadror, BiH115 and 2 others like this.
  4. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    I agree with everything but the "more skilled" part, the internet is filled with scrubs always has been and always will be, jokes aside though if my old raid core came at me and asked me to give it a try while simultaneously sending my wife an apology bouquet I may give it a go, but last I checked most of them were just as busy or more so than I am.
     
    GoldenTiger likes this.
  5. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,139
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    I for one welcome my WOW classic overlords.
     
    chockomonkey, DukenukemX, Dan and 3 others like this.
  6. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,098
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Hahaha. I remember those days. I haven't played in years, but when I did play I was soloing stuff 99% of the time.

    Go into a cave that I am just barely strong enough to kill 1 enemy at a time because I want the nice, high experience and then accidentally pull the whole mob and then run away like a little girl so I hopefully don't die and then go back and try again.
     
    auntjemima, qb4ever, Armenius and 7 others like this.
  7. Neslepax

    Neslepax Gawd

    Messages:
    746
    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Or trying to die somewhere strategic that will make getting back to your corpse easier, without pulling additional mobs to die to again.
     
  8. Verado

    Verado Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Footage is from actual vanilla. We had well over 40 members at launch of vanilla, most of which had known each other for years at that point.
    We had multiple world records in wow including being the first to clear MC in less than an hour.
    Our annual summer party is in a few weeks. Imma get shitfaced, act a fool and puke on someone, again!
     
    Armenius, alxlwson and Pieter3dnow like this.
  9. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

    Messages:
    578
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Got in, too bad I'm at work for another 4 hours :(
     
  10. $trapped

    $trapped [H]Lite

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
  11. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Armenius likes this.
  12. ScuNioN

    ScuNioN [H]Lite

    Messages:
    108
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Ain't that the truth? Dungeon trains, roaming mobs, general buggyness of floors over floors + mobs + aggro, paying attention to mana levels, not breaking mez, ect ect. The xp curves in EQ were brutal along with the death penalty xp loss. Classic WOW xp curve seemed easy.
     
  13. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Blizz will undoubtedly make minor changes they wont go full vanilla they will probably make some tweaks to it, but seriously I wish they had just put the effort into a new game that had a meaningful difficulty, you can do mechanics that are hard with out resorting to needless grind that was one of the things I liked about Wildstar.
     
  14. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,684
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    I dont understand the appeal of WOW Classic? By this time everyone should be burnt the fuck out on that game.
     
  15. Verado

    Verado Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Maybe wow is more like chess, while most games are more like ludo
     
  16. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

    Messages:
    578
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    all depends on how much you play my friend. If you're on for hours on end every day then yeah. but if you only get a few hours here and there it can keep your interest.
     
    Armenius likes this.
  17. Auer

    Auer Gawd

    Messages:
    839
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Depending on your personality, the original and it's No Flying, somewhat grindy slow pace has a higher level of immersion and sense of adventure. It is basically a bit harder and more dangerous, especially on a PvP server.
    The original world is quite large when you cant fly. And you cant just avoid certain enemies with ease. Or just fly up and AFK.....
     
  18. AthlonXP

    AthlonXP [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    20,288
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    I got the invite for testing it out so will give it a go next week.
     
  19. Westwood Arrakis

    Westwood Arrakis [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,121
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    As someone who started playing on 11/23/2004, I'll check it out this winter when the weather disallows motorcycles and outdoor work. I haven't played in about seven months. People kind of killed it for me turning it into a SimCrafter with numbers and all. Log this, log that, log log log. meh
     
  20. exlink

    exlink [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,439
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    I'll check it out. I clocked in over 3000 hours into Vanilla WoW, but that's when I was much younger and lacked many of the responsibilities I now have that take up most of my time. Vanilla WoW was not for the casual player in 2004-2006 and Classic WoW definitely isn't for the casual players of 2019.
     
  21. BiH115

    BiH115 Gif Guy

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Passing on beta. I know it'll be great and I'd rather come in fresh (as fresh as I can having started in Alpha way back when).

    I think that's why I was a bit burnt out as time went on. I realized at some point that I honestly just really didn't give a shit anymore. The game was fun, but I didn't want to hardcore raid anymore. I find that the limited amount of time I have to play games is best spent just sort of sitting back and relaxing, and I can't do that when I'm fiercely clicking buttons and trying not to die while everyone is yelling. I'm fortunate to have a large group of friends I've played WoW with for the last decade, so it'll be a good time chatting and sinking back into Classic and just taking my sweet, precious time getting to 60.

    I hear you, but I can't really agree on the last part of your statement. With Vanilla, you always got what you put into it. The game was successful because it had something for everyone, and while today's iteration with constant expansions and improvements keeps it very much plug and play for the common gamer, it's really the quality of life improvements that people take for granted. I've known hundreds of people who simply wanted to level slowly (and boy was it slow, but that was the journey) and just take everything in. I think the toughest part for people who play WoW now and didn't get a chance to play pre-BC, will be adjusting to all of the missing quality of life improvements that may seem trivial, such as having to dismount first, or having to wand to conserve mana, etc.

    If people want to experience content, they will be able to if they put some time in, like with any MMO. I'm unsure how that'll translate into hardcore raiding today, but we'll see as time goes on. The thing we have to understand is that players are much better overlal now, having played MMOs and WoW for so long, than they were back in 04 and 05. The learning of mechanics and classes was the gating factor for raiding (among other things like farming and time in general), especially getting into later 40-man content. The abundance of information and the fact that we're essentially replaying a 13-14 year old game at this point will make a lot of it moot.

    I started writing my post and then quickly glanced and saw yours. You've hit the nail on the head, essentially the crux of what I wanted to get across. I think, again, people will get what they put into it, but the game is quite different because of all of the QoL improvements over the last decade plus. It'll be an adjustment. I think time will tell, but I'm very curious to see how everything unfolds and to see how modern gamers will deal with all of these various features and what their impressions will be. We can speculate and perhaps even be dead on, but I want to see it for myself.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
    Neslepax and alxlwson like this.
  22. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Like the idea, but I have relied upon "community projects" for this nostalgia. I played EQ from release until WOW beta. I got burned out on WOW after WOTLK and moved on to single player/less time intensive games. Occasionally I missed EQ, so I found PEQ, and now can go load that up anytime I am nostalgic for EQ. There used to be similar for WOW, but I think Blizzard shut all of that down.
    The nice part about PEQ/Community stuff is that it is usually free, so i am more inclined to log in and play it to scratch whatever itch I was having to replay the game. Then I can drop it and go back to the other games I was playing.
     
  23. exlink

    exlink [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,439
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    I was implying that the casual gaming demographic of 2019 is much more casual than even those from the Vanilla WoW days. Vanilla WoW was a game where the more time you put in then the more you were able to experience and were rewarded. But today's casual gamers aren't into that. They want to basically get things quickly and by not putting in any hard work - which has essentially turned everything into RNG. That's why loot boxes are so successful, they allow the casuals to put money down rather than time and hard work to try and get what they want. Also, the longest grind in Vanilla WoW was getting to 60 (probably 2-3 weeks for more consistent players) which is largely circumvented in modern WoW with paid level boosts and heirloom gear.

    2019 casuals are going to get bored with Classic WoW very quickly when it comes out, especially those that didn't experience Vanilla WoW and go in not actually knowing what to expect. Classic WoW will be huge when it releases, but I'm almost willing to bet that the number of active players will sharply drop after about 2-3 months.
     
    Armenius and Auer like this.
  24. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,538
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    My only interest in playing Classic WoW is to be able to access weapons/outfits that are no longer in the game.
     
  25. Westwood Arrakis

    Westwood Arrakis [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,121
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Heh, I went from a level 72 in Lineage ][ to World of Warcraft back in 2004.

    Warcraft was, and still is, a casual game.
     
  26. BiH115

    BiH115 Gif Guy

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    I think in that regard, a lot of the younger players that are impatient and just don't want to put the time in will definitely balk at what Classic WoW is and was (Vanilla), no arguments there. I'm hoping the support will continue to flourish with the player base that has shown interest in Classic and that does want it to last and prosper, that's what I'm banking on. I don't think anyone will disagree that the average, newer player has no interest in putting forth any effort to achieve something in a game, but the decent-sized base that does will really appreciate all the work that goes into this.

    Don't even get me started on loot boxes and p2w, what a world we live in. I doubt that lootbox ban bill will get anywhere either.
     
    Armenius likes this.
  27. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    So a few things.... earlier I said I would consider coming back if the bulk of my old raid core asked me too with a pre apology to the wife, she has already been contacted by 5 of them.....

    Additionally I wonder what minor tweaks they will have made, I am sure they aren't just releasing the old stuff there will have to be some changes/updates and I am really curious for what they plan on doing with expansion content I would love if they managed to roll in some of the other stuff but keep it at the same difficulty levels so the game is properly punishing
     
    Armenius and vividshock like this.
  28. Auer

    Auer Gawd

    Messages:
    839
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Maybe we should make a list of ppl that are going to give classic a shot? Having a solid friends list will make all the difference in the pre LFR vanilla environment
     
    Armenius and BiH115 like this.
  29. Westwood Arrakis

    Westwood Arrakis [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,121
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Notably the warlocks.
     
    Armenius and BiH115 like this.
  30. BiH115

    BiH115 Gif Guy

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    You know I'm in baby! WHOO!

    Bap9.gif

    Ironically enough, plan on playing a Warlock as well. Was the class I enjoyed the most.
     
    auntjemima and Armenius like this.
  31. Auer

    Auer Gawd

    Messages:
    839
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Orc warlock is how I started on Stonemaul at launch. Will go melee in classic tho.
     
  32. Darunion

    Darunion 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,747
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    How long until you see posts from newly created hunters wondering why their bow wont fire? Those hunters that forget to bring enough ammo for those raids or runs was a thorn in my side as raid lead lol.
     
  33. BiH115

    BiH115 Gif Guy

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Should note that the large majority of people I played with plan on going Horde, faction choice is important.
     
  34. Auer

    Auer Gawd

    Messages:
    839
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Really should have a separate thread for all this eventually I spose.
     
  35. Westwood Arrakis

    Westwood Arrakis [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,121
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    I played a gnome rogue because I would be so difficult to click on in PvP. I came from Lineage ][, and there was no tab targeting, heh.

    Funniest thing was at level 1 I somehow inadvertently hit the / sign and walked the first 8h of the game. I thought running was something you unlocked later on. XD
     
    qb4ever, Armenius, vividshock and 3 others like this.
  36. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,451
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    To be frank, there's nobody left playing BfA. So to say that game is largely dominated by casuals isn't saying much when everyone stopped playing the game. The casual argument only holds if there's a good deal of players left, and there isn't any. I do agree that over time the amount of people playing classic will deminish but not because they're bored of the game. They'll quit because they're paying $15 a month for not an accurate recreation. This is because they're using the modern WoW engine and I doubt they replicated all the bugs that gave the game its unique characteristic. For example there was an add-on for Vanilla WoW that allows you to auto cleanse and auto heal players with just one button. In doubt those add-ons work just because the add-on system has changed so much. The ability to climb walls by carefully jumping is another example.

    I also don't think Blizzard is going to release Classic the same way private servers do. Private servers recreate the patches done to the game including class talents and when content is released. If done right a person could enjoy Classic for at least 2 years, but I hear Blizzard is using the latest 1.12 patch throughout the entire games progression. If they release too much content at once, which I expect them to do, then people will just avoid doing certain content since newer content is more rewarding.

    If Blizzard does it correctly I could see the game lasting years for some players, but this is Blizzard we're taking about here. The same companies that ask's the all important question, "don't you all have phones?". They have no incentive to keep you playing an old game you already paid for instead of pushing you to play the latest expansion. They're going to put micro-transactions and XP boosters into the game. They'll ruin the game so badly that within a few months a lot of those people will turn to private servers once again. I hear that Lights Hope is planning to shut down and I hope someone else will pick up where they left off as I have no intention to deal with Blizzard/Activision anymore.
     
  37. Auer

    Auer Gawd

    Messages:
    839
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Blizzard has a pretty good track record for keeping old games going.
     
  38. BiH115

    BiH115 Gif Guy

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    I agree with you to a point. It's a shame that BfA is one of the more controversial expansions, it seems that the game has been on the decline for a while now. Hell, one of the longest running games of this scope is starting to lose wind (and it's been in the making), still impressive what's been achieved.

    I'm willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt with everything that's been announced over the last year or so. The team seems to be made up of individuals who really wanted to be on this project and are passionate enough to want to see it through while keeping it at a consistent quality that the fans expect. That being said, in regards to content, it's going to be staggered for PvE and PvP, but timelines are a little unclear. I'm curious how long each phase will last. No real concrete information in that regard.

    PvE
    • Phase 1 (Classic Launch): Molten Core, Onyxia, Maraudon
    • Phase 2: Dire Maul, Azuregos, Kazzak
    • Phase 3: Blackwing Lair, Darkmoon Faire, Darkmoon deck drops begin
    • Phase 4: Zul'Gurub, Green Dragons
    • Phase 5: Ahn’Qiraj War Effort begins, Ahn’Qiraj raids open when the war effort dictates, Dungeon loot reconfiguration (Tier 0.5 Dungeon gear, Relics, drop rates and location changes)
    • Phase 6: Naxxramas, Scourge Invasion
    PvP
    • Phase 1 (Classic Launch): You can PvP one another in the world, but there is no tracking, and no formal rewards for doing so.
    • Phase 2: Honor System (including Dishonorable Kills), PvP Rank Rewards
    • Phase 3: Alterac Valley (version 1.12), Warsong Gulch
    • Phase 4: Arathi Basin
    • Phase 6: World PvP objectives in Silithus and Eastern Plaguelands
    The build they're using is based on the newest engine, definitely, but there'd be no incentive for them to try to regulate quaint bugs and exploits from the past. They're trying to create an environment where people can experience a unique time in gaming history (with its faults, no doubt), so compromises must be made in all areas.

    In either case, for myself and all the fans involved, I hope you're wrong about the interest fizzing out over the course of a few months, but I suppose none of us really know what's going to happen.

    Some interesting material here regarding Classic, and what's after that, potentially: https://www.wowhead.com/news=291725/burning-crusade-and-wrath-legacy-servers-possibly-in-wows-future
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  39. $trapped

    $trapped [H]Lite

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Lakados likes this.
  40. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,695
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    I would almost rather them use this as a way to "rewrite history" and perhaps do something completely different, like branch it off into an alternate timeline.
     
    Verado likes this.