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World's Largest Solar Project Would Power 1 Million U.S. Homes

The FASTEST way to power Ai mega computer systems is with NAT Gas power plants. Every thing else takes to long.
 
They're somewhat quicker to build, but they drive up natural gas prices due to sucking down millions of cubic feet per day, driving up demand.
 
What that guy said. It's easy to scream Thorium or whatever non standard reactor design someone read in Popular Mechanics, but there are real world reasons why they arent being used, and w1retap typed a small essay so I dont have to
 
w1retap said:
There's zero talk of them in the real world nuclear industry. We are talking about PWR/BWR SMR's though, and large 1200MWe+ units. My company is licensed for one already, and not too long ago we solicited the state legislature for allocation of a loan to break ground and start construction.

But yeah, we've done molten salt before. My office is right next to what used to be one. They are an extreme pain to perform any type of work on, and to operate reliably. Any areas in the primary loop (or even secondary loop where sodium is used) where there's any sort of flow eddy or disruption, you get solidification of the sodium. Then it all just goes downhill from there...

So far every "cool" online pipedream I've seen uses fuel in the primary loop not within fuel rods. That makes maintenance impossible or not even feasible cost-wise due to long-term fission products coating everything you need to perform maintenance on -- a person isn't getting anywhere near it, and it embrittles all the components with neutron flux, requiring replacement at an even higher rate. We don't even have materials available for seals and motor winding coatings that can withstand that type of abuse anyhow for extended operation like you'd see on an electrical grid. So that brings you back to fuel in fuel rods and the whole flow eddy discussion where you can't maintain temperatures/cooling properly and end up with a fuel melt. Beyond that, the corrosiveness factor is off the charts. We have a hard enough time with just boron corrosion in PWR's, so MSR's bring a 100x factor to that problem.
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I assume the salt problem applies to fast reactors as well. Besides fast reactors, is there a viable way of using U-238 as fuel for power or is that the only way?
 
Breeder reactors are really the only economical way in terms of commercial power production. But they're shunned and frowned upon politically due to the easy jump to nuclear weapons production. However that isn't even how we make weapons grade material anymore. We just use laser isotope separation. It can be done in an area the size of a home basement and consumes a pretty low amount of power.
 
w1retap said:
Breeder reactors are really the only economical way in terms of commercial power production. But they're shunned and frowned upon politically due to the easy jump to nuclear weapons production. However that isn't even how we make weapons grade material anymore. We just use laser isotope separation. It can be done in an area the size of a home basement and consumes a pretty low amount of power.
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It's not like the new pit production isn't without it's challenges.
 
It really doesn't have many challenges. My coworker had that as her previous job at Y12.
 
Tsumi said:
I assume the salt problem applies to fast reactors as well. Besides fast reactors, is there a viable way of using U-238 as fuel for power or is that the only way?
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On its own no. U238 is not a neutron source. However under neutron flux it does give us Pu-239 which is fissile.

Thorium is the same way, worthless on its own. Just mildly beta emitting. Hit it with neutron and you get U-233 which is all kinds of fun.

One of the biggest downsides to thorium is that due to the fact that it is much more reactive, gives more energy and leaves far less long lasting waste, it also produces a lot more radiation. Handling that is a real problem for workers.

The salt problem, we're at the waiting game again. In theory a salt reactor would give much higher fuel burn up and therefore much less waste. More modern ideas involve much higher working temperatures and not necessarily sodium. There are other options. A lot of the delays are regulatory. Approving a small light water reactor is simple, humans have been building those for decades. Full scale molten salt or molten lead reactor not so much.
 
w1retap said:
They're somewhat quicker to build, but they drive up natural gas prices due to sucking down millions of cubic feet per day, driving up demand.
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LOL, we have more NAT gas then we know what to do with. Hell look at North Dakota at night on a sat image, it looks like NYC all lit up. That is not lights it's nat gas vents burning it off. We have enough to run the US for 200 years.
 
w1retap said:
There's zero talk of them in the real world nuclear industry. We are talking about PWR/BWR SMR's though, and large 1200MWe+ units. My company is licensed for one already, and not too long ago we solicited the state legislature for allocation of a loan to break ground and start construction.
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This is so not my area of expertise, but is that similar to the BWRX-300 that Ontario is beginning construction on? Granted, only a 300MW unit.
 
mullet said:
LOL, we have more NAT gas then we know what to do with. Hell look at North Dakota at night on a sat image, it looks like NYC all lit up. That is not lights it's nat gas vents burning it off. We have enough to run the US for 200 years.
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I didn't say we didn't have enough. I said it just drives up prices for consumers due to the increased demand. That's fine if you're ok with that, but I'd rather have cheaper natural gas to heat my home and hot water heater.

Ididar said:
This is so not my area of expertise, but is that similar to the BWRX-300 that Ontario is beginning construction on? Granted, only a 300MW unit.
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Yeah, that's a new SMR design, a boiling water reactor. They're meant to be easy to construct with most of the components able to be shipped via rail and truck. Smaller EP-zone, less maintenance required, better passive safety systems, etc. Darlington is supposed to be building them soon. I have a few contacts there I talk with every so often.
 
CVNet1 said:
When I see or hear of these large solar farms, I always think how much more stable MW capacity could be generated on the same footprint with Thorium molten salt reactors. And without the fragility and unstable nature of solar power production, it would remove the eyesore while delivering more reliable grid power.
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Gideon said:
There is currently no approved reactor design at this time, that would be the major hurdle. Once a design is approved you would probably see commercial units within 5 years. They are at least far closer to becoming a possibility than Fusion reactors.
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China World's First Thorium Reactor
It's also molten salt and meltdown proof.
US is falling behind.

"The U.S. Invented It. China Made It Work.
The concept of molten salt thorium reactors (MSRs) was pioneered by the United States during the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Despite their potential, the U.S. abandoned the research in favor of uranium-based designs better suited for nuclear submarines and weapons development.
Decades later, China dusted off these declassified blueprints and invested billions in advancing the technology. In 2021, China’s Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP) completed construction of a 2-megawatt experimental thorium reactor in the Gobi Desert. Now, it’s fully operational — a global first.
...
Thorium reactor technology was once an American innovation. But short-term defense goals, budget constraints, and political inertia pushed it into obscurity.
Now, the U.S. faces a scenario where it must import — or license — a technology it originally created. Unless urgent action is taken, this could become yet another example of lost scientific leadership."

Of course, the article writer goes sideways at the end and reminds us of why the US lost scientific leadership, "...As the climate crisis accelerates..." :rolleyes:
 
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w1retap said:
I didn't say we didn't have enough. I said it just drives up prices for consumers due to the increased demand. That's fine if you're ok with that, but I'd rather have cheaper natural gas to heat my home and hot water heater.


Yeah, that's a new SMR design, a boiling water reactor. They're meant to be easy to construct with most of the components able to be shipped via rail and truck. Smaller EP-zone, less maintenance required, better passive safety systems, etc. Darlington is supposed to be building them soon. I have a few contacts there I talk with every so often.
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They already have it all dug out. They have only been waiting for the CNSC approval. They got the green light from the province and the CNSC this past week, game on.
 
sleepeeg3 said:
China World's First Thorium Reactor
It's also molten salt and meltdown proof.
US is falling behind.

"The U.S. Invented It. China Made It Work.
The concept of molten salt thorium reactors (MSRs) was pioneered by the United States during the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Despite their potential, the U.S. abandoned the research in favor of uranium-based designs better suited for nuclear submarines and weapons development.
Decades later, China dusted off these declassified blueprints and invested billions in advancing the technology. In 2021, China’s Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP) completed construction of a 2-megawatt experimental thorium reactor in the Gobi Desert. Now, it’s fully operational — a global first.
...
Thorium reactor technology was once an American innovation. But short-term defense goals, budget constraints, and political inertia pushed it into obscurity.
Now, the U.S. faces a scenario where it must import — or license — a technology it originally created. Unless urgent action is taken, this could become yet another example of lost scientific leadership."

Of course, the article writer goes sideways at the end and reminds us of why the US lost scientific leadership, "...As the climate crisis accelerates..." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Just going to say, I am highly skeptical of anything China claims to have done. But the reality is we would never use a Chinese design in the US for a reactor. If their much bigger reactor works in 2030 or so then they will turn heads. Also to be fair America has always done better when pushed, rather than left to our own devices.
 
Gideon said:
Just going to say, I am highly skeptical of anything China claims to have done. But the reality is we would never use a Chinese design in the US for a reactor. If their much bigger reactor works in 2030 or so then they will turn heads. Also to be fair America has always done better when pushed, rather than left to our own devices.
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Well in this case I don't think I'd be skeptical, I'd just say this has been blown out of proportion. From multiple sites
The reactor is reportedly designed to sustainably generate 2 megawatts of thermal power.
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that is NOT a fully functioning power plant, this is a test facility, nothing more, and for point of emphasis the MSRE that the US built to test the idea in the mid 60s was about 4 times as much thermal energy. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way poopooing on what China is doing, good for them and all their research they are pushing, but lets not pretend they have a fully functional plant putting commercial levels of power out there, this is a testing facility for the technology, nothing more.
 
2MWth.. but it will go nowhere because they won't be able to perform maintenance on it, unless they use the soviet method of having workers do 2 minute shifts and eating up their ALARA goals in that time period -- or maybe they don't care and they'll just have people get fatal doses lol. But that's 700kW electric output at best with a 35% efficient steam cycle, which they likely aren't even reaching anyway. By comparison, a standard peaker unit does around 15MW electrical output. Or the sodium cooled fast reactor at my work did over 400MWth / 150MWe.. back in the 1960's. They'll soon realize they're unfeasible from a maintenance and cost perspective. BWR and PWR or other advanced generation water/gas based designs are far superior for power production. The "waste problem" is what these grifters are trying to solve, but it isn't even a problem because we already know how to do a closed fuel cycle to recycle 99% of spent fuel and breed it into new fuel while producing power. The only difficult part of that is fuel cut-up and repinning, but our advanced automation/robotics can solve that issue -- the last go around we didn't even have microprocessors yet.
 
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sfsuphysics said:
for point of emphasis the MSRE that the US built to test the idea in the mid 60s was about 4 times as much thermal energy.
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The US built a standard, uranium based reactor. This is thorium based - first of it's kind.
Reality is, China is doing it, we're not.
 
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Because it is a pointless waste of money. We did all that back in the late 50's and early 60's and figured it out already.
 
sleepeeg3 said:
The US built a standard, uranium based reactor. This is thorium based - first of it's kind.
Reality is, China is doing it, we're not.
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No, the US built a TEST reactor, they didn't put the thorium blanket in because they were more concerned with seeing what the neutron flux was like more so than breeding additional fuel. And I hate to break it to you, but their reactor is also uranium based, thorium doesn't make energy it's used as a seed to create more uranium which is the nuclear fuel that is being used.

And yes China is doing it, we're not, but we're not really doing much of anything on the nuclear side of thing, and that's the bigger problem.
 
w1retap said:
The "waste problem" is what these grifters are trying to solve
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I thought it was more
- fuel cost/complexity o fuel,, Thorium there is like for 100,000 years worth of energy more easily available that the more complicated enriching uranium process (as you say it is a way to create more uranium cheaper)
- security of small in-city-industrial sector system

I doubt the CPP care about made up waste problem.
 
Fuel cost is already insanely cheap for a LWR, costing us about half a cent per kWh. It isn't complex at all and it is simple to make. I've been to both GE's and Westinghouse's fuel fabrication facilities numerous times and watched every step of the process besides physically mining the ground. The fuel is plentiful. We have enough uranium to fuel the planet for longer than humanity will be around.
 
This thread is interesting. I've listened to "experts" on podcasts with less relevant information.

A podcast series talking about the US lack of nuclear research and/or debunking fake news from the rest of the world would draw a lot of listeners. I've heard people talking about the salt reactors with such promise that I was left questioning the politics of it all for days...

Anyway, we need to get the boomers out of our federal politics that cry about Chernobyl and fast track some next-level power plants.
 
Most podcasts don't have experts on. They'll have some researcher who has never stepped foot out of a lecture hall or science lab. They don't know anything about the real world application. They can tell you all you want to know about isotopic transmutations or processes, but don't have knowledge on what it takes in reality, or they oversimplify it and act like it is feasible in real life in a commercial application.
 
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mullet said:
The robots will need it when they take over the human race.
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They better, because if they are going to plug me into a machine to keep me complaint and violate laws of thermodynamics to turn me into a battery I'm going to be all sorts of Neo level of pissed
 
sfsuphysics said:
They better, because if they are going to plug me into a machine to keep me complaint and violate laws of thermodynamics to turn me into a battery I'm going to be all sorts of Neo level of pissed
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End the cycle of violence, bruh!
 
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