No, I have my doctorate in criminology, law, and society. Studying how and why crime occurs in this country necessarily entails understanding the relationship between income inequality and crime. Some criminologists think it does not have much relationship and some think it has to do with a lot but all of us have to understand the nature of the relationship to explain it one way or the other.
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Women Are Leaving The Tech Industry In Droves
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
Actually, I'm 100% correct and your post merely reinforces my points.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine but you have a huge chip on your shoulder and you still aren't any better at articulating your points.
First of all, when your sister left school with her BSN that placed her multiple levels of education and experience higher than the rest of the "nursing" field that was included in those categories in the article. Health and wellness support staff, candy stripers, etc. do not make anywhere near a 4 year degree holding, licensed, and trained nurse.
Your BS in engineering, on the other hand, is an entry level degree into your field. Unless you start counting all the guys that stand behind Geek Squad desks and Apple Genius Bars as "engineers" and averaging all your wages together into the broad field of "IT" then it's a completely useless comparison to the field of "nursing."
A 4 year undergraduate degree in nursing is worth more than a degree in engineering.
The only comparison worth doing is comparing men to women in nursing and men to women in engineering. The fact that you don't understand this basic principle is likely another factor as to why you were hired at such a low wage--it's basic statistical analysis.
You then compared her highly skilled FNP degree to your entry level position before you earned your masters. Yet again, even though it's a useless comparison, it still illustrates the lengths you're willing to go to minimize your sister's skill and education level.
I correctly educated you on the fact that, within the field of nursing, FNP is a terminal degree. It's equivalent in the field of a general practitioner and FNPs are replacing general physicians. I even showed you evidence that the field is moving to replacing the FNP with a doctorate in nursing. Programs like the one at the university I teach at have switched to offering doctorates in nursing rather than family nurse practitioners. It's a very small percentage of nurses who obtain that degree so her wages are by no means representative of the broad category of "nursing" that people think of and encounter when they enter a health service facility.
You then compared it (erroneously) to your MS in engineering (despite my comprehension skills I'm going to assume you meant that rather than your newly listed "BSN" above) and MBA. I'm not gong to insult you about obtaining your MBA but I am going to point out that it's not a rare or highly skilled degree. It's a common degree and there is no reason to suspect it would command a high salary in the market.
So you have your master's in electrical engineering (and given that I come from UC Irvine I'm aware of what it takes to earn such a degree, which isn't much) and years in the field and now you make more than your sister.
Nothing that I wrote contradicts that narrative that you've given us. I've been accurate in my assessment of it. The only difference here is that I think you are off your rocker to be upset that your sister makes far above the average nurse, as she should with a freaking graduate degree in nursing, whereas you made lower wages than her for the first 2/3rds of the your career, which also as it should be since EE majors and MBA holders are a dime a dozen.
VladDracule
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OMG are you so fucking full of it. I NEVER COMPARED HER FNP DEGREE TO MY BS. I compared her FNP TO MY MBA AND MS salary AFTER COMPLETING THEM.
As i said, your reading comprehension is absolute trash, remind me to never reply to a single one of your posts ever again.
I think this is the key point. Your work is your family, and your real family is secondary. The company may say they value work/life balance, but that's BS. Everyone knows the truth. If you don't enjoy working long hours with little social interaction, don't work in tech. And of course this leads to a certain atmosphere which is unfriendly to women, but you can either change the culture and see profit loss, or you can be a job where women don't want to work.
And remember, you are replaceable. Nothing you do can't be done by someone else. You have no leverage, and there's always someone younger who's willing to put in more time and effort for less money. This isn't about gender either.
VladDracule
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Also to again further clarify the same thing ive been saying over and over again, the MS and BSN came after already having been a Principle Engineer, having 5+ patents granted with my company (my name on them), mutliple IEEE recognitions, and multiple Company Outstanding Engineer or the year awards.
And AGAIN. her ENTRY FNP pay was higher than mine after already having been a recognized engineer in my field, completing my masters, and my BSN, and only after receiving a Chief Engineer and SME title did my pay exceed hers.
MrGuvernment
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So where are the femi-nazi's on this one and their reasoning for it?
They left.
What is an "entry" FNP position given that family nurse practitioner takes several licensure completions, years of training in the field, and is a terminal degree in nursing
and you're comparing all that to your MBA and a master's in engineering.
BTW, the fact the several people reached the same conclusion is due to your inability to communicate your ideas clearly. You said that her salary was hire [sic] than yours was in the first 2/3rds of your career, which implies before you had all your achievements. There's no way for anyone to know you had all of that since your followup claimed that you only earned them several years into the field. You now have stated twice that you also hold a BSN, indicating it wasn't a typo. So apparently you hold a BSN, a BS in engineering, an MBA, and an MS in engineering. You're a chief engineer, you hold all kinds of awards, and so apparently you are accomplished (although your narrative seems unlikely given your communication skills, typos, and inability to parse basic analytical factors), but the worst part of all this is twofold:
1. The wages your sister earn as a nurse vis-a-vis to yours as an engineer are irrelevant to the discussion of gendered wage gaps.
2. This whole shitstorm you can't stop throwing is because I said that, on the whole, nurses are overworked and underpaid and that a broad spectrum of social and personal choices land a lot of women (many minority and immigrant status) into the nursing field rather than on track for an MD.
You come across as a real classy guy.
VladDracule
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What is an "entry" FNP position given that family nurse practitioner takes several licensure completions, years of training in the field, and is a terminal degree in nursing
and you're comparing all that to your MBA and a master's in engineering.
BTW, the fact the several people reached the same conclusion is due to your inability to communicate your ideas clearly. You said that her salary was hire [sic] than yours was in the first 2/3rds of your career, which implies before you had all your achievements. There's no way for anyone to know you had all of that since your followup claimed that you only earned them several years into the field. You now have stated twice that you also hold a BSN, indicating it wasn't a typo. So apparently you hold a BSN, a BS in engineering, an MBA, and an MS in engineering. You're a chief engineer, you hold all kinds of awards, and so apparently you are accomplished (although your narrative seems unlikely given your communication skills, typos, and inability to parse basic analytical factors), but the worst part of all this is twofold:
1. The wages your sister earn as a nurse vis-a-vis to yours as an engineer are irrelevant to the discussion of gendered wage gaps.
2. This whole shitstorm you can't stop throwing is because I said that, on the whole, nurses are overworked and underpaid and that a broad spectrum of social and personal choices land a lot of women (many minority and immigrant status) into the nursing field rather than on track for an MD.
You come across as a real classy guy.
And yet ive pointed out the same facts over and over again clarified what i said over and over again and your still completely cluelss and make BS statements about what you claim i "said" Why am i suprised at what your area of "expertise is" I bet you can put a damn good spin on anything in your favor. Your reading comprehension as i said before, is terrible
Another personal attack.
I don't think anyone here believes you're a trained professional in the field with years experience leading teams of engineers who don't play well with others. If they even believed your claims in the first place, it's become clear that you can't handle yourself in what amounts to a mildly stressful situation, at worst, that could have been cleared up with a sentence or two (ignoring the glaring issue that your and her wages are irrelevant to the discussion anyway).
I don't think anyone here believes you're a trained professional in the field with years experience leading teams of engineers who don't play well with others. If they even believed your claims in the first place, it's become clear that you can't handle yourself in what amounts to a mildly stressful situation, at worst, that could have been cleared up with a sentence or two (ignoring the glaring issue that your and her wages are irrelevant to the discussion anyway).
VladDracule
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Not my fault if you cant comprehend blatantly obvious statements repeated 30 times for you. US Education at its finestWhat exactly do you think I'm not comprehending?
You continue to lodge that attack but it's not clear what you think I don't understand you're trying to say.
You compared your sister's salary after earning her terminal degree to the beginning of your career arc.
Is that incorrect?
VladDracule
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lolololol ive stated it in at LEAST 5 posts that i compared her FNP salary to my principle engineer salary post BS and MBA. I said it MULTIPLE times. Again, way to put your comprehensive understanding capabilities on full display
What, exactly, do you think this point of yours demonstrates?
You're extremely adamant about it so it holds extreme significance to you.
You posted this in response to me writing that the majority of nursing positions are low wage, high demand, positions.
Why do you think your statement above contradicts what I wrote?
Thanks. That reflects what I have seen in the workplace.
Referring back to previous comments on promotion.
I worked for a large telecom manufacturer as a software dev for 14 years. No one was just promoted to manager. I saw no discrimination. But this is what it took:
Being damn good. Working ~10-20 hours of overtime (unpaid) per week on a regular basis. Taking on project lead positions and delivering (which required lots of extra overtime). A willingness to push your team to deliver on crazy deadlines.
And some actual aptitude managing people.
Some men/women were willing to do what it took and they got the promotions. Many men/women weren't and they didn't get the promotions.
I just think it is the case were a slightly higher proportion of men are type-A personality driven types. They are the ones that will have give up a life to get the promotions.
In the end the promotions went to those who worked the hardest and deliver the most. Shouldn't that be the way it works?
VladDracule
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yeah thats what i responded to. you SERIOUSLY need to improve your reading comprehension, you cant even understand what is laid out explicitly in front of you, Im done here
EE majors are a dime a dozen? Care to prove that? If EE majors are a dime a dozen what are history, psych, or poly-sci majors, penny per gross?
VladDracule
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Hes proven repeatedly how dense he is, dont even bother. EE is one of the lowest pursued degrees in the US at virtually every single college in the US
I don't doubt that is true to some but quality statistical evidence do we have it is true industry wide?
That same writer wrote a followup article. http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-women-in-tech-responses-20150223-story.html
That same writer wrote a followup article. http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-women-in-tech-responses-20150223-story.html
I'm wondering after reading what you've said as a mechanical engineer myself if I should think about get my FNP myself and leave engineering altogether or find some way to mix the two. However, the cost of a 4 year nursing degree may exceed my yearning to pay, what do you think about a transition like that. I'm in my 40's and I'm wondering if it's worth it to make a move into something else. I'm becoming very disillusioned with engineering as a whole. Is the cost worth it?
You should probably look up what entails obtaining an FNP.
An FNP is a terminal degree. You'd think with all you college graduates you would know what exactly that is. It is *not* a four year nursing degree.
A four year nursing degree is a BSN. You have to have years of schooling, years in the field, and a graduate degree in nursing before specializing as a Family Nurse practitioner.
It's now being called a Doctorate in Nursing, if that gives you an idea. If you think it's a good advice to quit your career and spend a decade in nursing then by all means make that decision but I'm not a career counselor
Well, I have to admit I was an EE/CS minor in college so I have a bias, but everyone I knew in college thought EE was tough.
That article says the same thing that people here have said, the tech industry is BRUTAL. I guess giving a bunch of antisocial nerds power is not a good thing
PS Yes I am an engineer
GearChoices
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That article says the same thing that people here have said, the tech industry is BRUTAL. I guess giving a bunch of antisocial nerds power is not a good thing
PS Yes I am an engineer
Correct me if I am wrong (seriously, I am not sure), but I think they are more antisocial geeks (not all geeks are antisocial btw, but most of the ones in IT seem to be so) rather than antisocial nerds. Geeks are highly into computers/tech (and often video games), whereas nerds are highly into intellectual, worldly, and/or academic topics (all of which the antisocial geeks normally hate).
But unfortunately, the geek extremists are just half of the problem. The other half is the business management which treats all of their tech workers as expendable. In the long-term, pure IT is a dead-end career, as designed by management. Because IT workers are looked down upon by management, they are also the most vulnerable to overseas outsourcing and overseas in-sourcing.
With an alliance between tech industry fat cats, political fat cats, and media fat cats, propaganda articles like these are constantly being published to encourage increased visa limits (both worker and student) and pro-outsourcing trade agreements, despite there already being a large amount of citizens who are highly educated, trained, and experienced IT students/graduates/workers that are currently unemployed (or underemployed with part-time work) and seeking full-time work. The more unemployed IT workers there are, the worse they can treat their current/potential IT employees and the less they have to compensate them.
So if all the anti-social geeks suddenly became friendly, positive, "people-persons," tomorrow, the IT industry would still be brutal.
EE is one of the most difficult engineering programs out of all the engineering programs. I think only ChemE is considered more difficult.
Also, back on topic, EE had one of if not the lowest % female graduates at my university (it was single digits). Even MechE had more women than we did for fuck's sake.
Have to love the guy droning on and on about comprehension skills completely incapable of parsing a paragraph:
Here is what Forbes has to say about the demand for EE careers:
-- http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2014/09/12/the-most-in-demand-and-oldest-engineering-jobs/
That said, given the display of complete lack of logic and statistical analysis skills, it's no doubt that he found a theoretical and math-centric discipline "hard."
Here is what Forbes has to say about the demand for EE careers:
-- http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2014/09/12/the-most-in-demand-and-oldest-engineering-jobs/
That said, given the display of complete lack of logic and statistical analysis skills, it's no doubt that he found a theoretical and math-centric discipline "hard."
I just provided the actual data versus opinion for you to read.
That said, if you want my honest opinion about the state of our US workforce *any* BA/BS degree is worth about as much as the paper it's printed on. If you can parlay it into a vocational track then fine, other than that a four year undergraduate degree, with nothing else in hand, has basically replaced the high school diploma and either preps you for flipping burgers or going on to graduate school...so yeah, pretty much a "penny per gross."
GearChoices
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I agree with you about the ever-decreasing value of any college degree. However, although an MBA is a dime a dozen and not worth it from the vast majority of schools, it isn't a dime a dozen from the top 10-20 business schools, although those are becoming less valuable too, as are all college degrees. In fact, if you get an undergraduate in an engineering discipline and gain several years of engineering experience, an MBA from a top business school will be more valuable than an MS/ME/PHd from a top engineering school, if you are the type of person to be perceived by managers / recruiters as potential management material.
I don't disagree.
In fact, my previous roommate (and all his friends) dropped out of their EE PhD programs and went to work in various places around OC because they were making more with their Master's after several years in the field than if they completed their degrees and added another few years of debt under their belts.
That said, let's put those comments back within the context they were made:
He's been whining and flinging personal insults for nearly two days now because I stated that his sister's graduate degree in nursing doesn't represent the vast majority of wages "nurses" make (the broad category the article listed included everyone from support staff all the way up to nurses with doctorates).
He initially tried to compare his sister's terminal (graduate) degree in nursing salary to the salary he made at the beginning of his career arc ("first 2/3rd of his career as an engineer"), which according to his subsequent posts, included the time he started working in his field with a mere BS in engineering.
It wasn't until after several years in the field and a couple master's degrees along with a number of achievements that his salary exceeded hers.
Keeping in mind that the two comparisons are completely asinine when trying to discuss potential wage gaps between men and women (unless there is some relationship between wages women make while nursing compared to wages men make while engineering I'm missing), the fact that his sister was making more with her graduate degree and years in the field compared to the first 2/3rds of his career is probably what most would consider the market "working as intended."
VladDracule
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Your still spouting bullshit I see? Move on its pathetic at this point. AND HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU I DID NOT COMPARE HER FNP TO MY BS SALARY. HOW MANY DAMN TIMES???? THIS IS THE 10TH AT LEAST.
VladDracule
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And again. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU I COMPARED HER BSN TO MY BS SALARY CALCULATING FOR INLATION????? Seriously it is flat out pathetic how much bullshit flak your putting out. No wonder your a law professor. What a joke
Wait a minute...
So now you're claiming that this statement:
really meant:
and my "reading comprehension" is the failure in this discussion?
BTW, by my count this is literally the first time you mentioned that you were comparing her starting salary out of college with your starting salary out of college.
The first time you posted in response to me you stated you were comparing her FNP graduate degree to the first 2/3rd of your career arc.
If you really stated that you were comparing her starting salary to your starting salary before that then I apologize for missing it.
Please quote the relevant post of yours so I can go review the data you presented. I'd also like to see the work you did to control for inflation. I'm assuming you posted that, as well, and that I missed it so a simple quote to the post will suffice.
Does his displayed behavior strike you as potential management material?
VladDracule
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And yet I actually managed a department of 130 engineers before I became an RF and antenna subject matter expert. I mean seriously get over yourself. Its getting old. Your misinterpretations and entire attitude is completely passive aggressive and there is absolutely no reason for it.
Disposed
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I know this is unrelated but where on earth did you work that had 130 engineers in a single department?!
VladDracule
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I was at a VP level of one of our subcompanies, so it wasnt just 1 discipline of engineering i oversaw hardware groups, software groups, mechincal groups, and several cad design (PCB layout groups)
lilbabycat
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Recent studies (last 20years?) has been tainted by certain people with certain agendas that have been conveniently finding data that supports their theories more often than research has in the past.
Classic SJW "Don't question what we tell you, everyone in our exclusive club say you're wrong, you bigot"
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/13/scientific-research-fraud-bad-practice
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6026/251
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/n...logy-heralds-interesting-times-for-the-field/
http://www.nature.com/news/replication-studies-bad-copy-1.10634
Well to be fair, they pay better then most IT industry jobs to begin with.....