With HD-DVD players selling out everywhere...

[w1retap]

lol, it doesn't quite leave it in the dust. But I will agree it will probably add fuel to the fire. The article really didn't go in depth that much, but it is stuff that is already common knowledge. Or at least I hope people would already know it, as people on [H] are usually smart consumers.

 

[BillR]

lol, it doesn't quite leave it in the dust. But I will agree it will probably add fuel to the fire. The article really didn't go in depth that much, but it is stuff that is already common knowledge. Or at least I hope people would already know it, as people on [H] are usually smart consumers.

Ok, make this simple. I’m wrong. Ok? There, hope that strokes your,…er…ego.

As to BR or HD, none of it is relevant in the long term anyway, which I might add is the reason I have no investment in either format.

I like a move to look like a movie and to date no HD format looks like a movie. They do however look like a cross between a video game and bad film, which to me is unacceptable.

For a very long time Sony was by far the easiest TV to sell simply because Sony always tended toward a color palette based largely on the pastels and their sets stood out when you had 50 to 80 sets all running side by side.

Both Pioneer and Mitsubishi tended toward a more earth tone color palette and frankly it took extra time to sell a customer on the far more natural look of these sets. As a rule a proper selection of demo movies would show the customer the difference and they were free to make a decision.

Now, with HD in any format we have a really strange color palette and even that varies by studio just as movie size varies by studio. Here it is almost 2008 and there are virtually no true 16x9 format movies on DVD and that is sad.

Even the next gen HD players leave a lot to be desired because they still cause visual fatigue, much the same as many CD’s cause listener fatigue.

While I admit the next gen disk and players may well extend the life of the market for home HD players, the entire concept of set top players will go by way of the of the dodo bird in the not to distant future.

I’ll try to explain in simple terms just for you. In case you missed it, home stereo systems for the masses died a number of years back. Aside from a few of us there is little or no market for a straight up music system anymore. We know this because virtually all CD manufactures and studios have announced they will end production of the CD format as soon as practically possible. Why you ask? MP-3 is the answer. In short nobody gives a damn about audio quality anymore, again except for the very few purist’s types and they are few and far between. So, if you want music you will either have to join a service and pay as you go or steal it.

Back to HD and BR DVD, the same situation exists there as well but only because the consumer doesn’t have the time to deal with competing formats, especially when every store they enter gives them a different story.

You are an HD zealot, god knows you have made that plain enough. The problem is you seem very oriented toward the cheapest product that will do the job.

My personal zealotry tends toward what gives me the best picture at a reasonable price, not the cheapest price.

First, on a TV I can’t stand pixels. Of my three HD sets one is a Pioneer 53” rear projection CRT based set, my wife chose that one for her use out of over 100 sets with no prompting from me. The set in my computer/work room is a Pioneer Elite 50” Plasma and the third set is yet another CRT rear projector based 48” Mitsubishi with a few modifications.

I play good old standard DVD’s on these sets but I use some pretty good players on them and most people think they are in High Def. All 4 of my standard DVD players are modded, all regular solder removed and replaced by pure silver, a few DACs replaced by higher end models etc. and hooked to the sets with better cables then most would be willing to buy.

Aside from my movie collection I have between 75 and 85 movies to pick from on Comcast cable with their On Demand service. That’s a lot of HD movies even if they are “only” 1080i. I also realize that neither Comcast or Fios will go beyond 1080i for many years to come, but not one person has seen any of my sets and suggested I need BR or HD to get an improved difference.

Virtually nobody will argue that the Pioneer Elite Plasma is the best TV out there and that is where I do my comparisons on various players given to me to bring home and evaluate.

Now, all that aside back to my point about how neither format will win in the end although you will probably see a spike in sales in the next year or two and then a sharp decline.

Forbes seems to understand the market especially based on history:

http://www.forbes.com/media/2007/10/08/highdef-dvd-forecast-biz-media-cx_lh_1008bizhighdef.html

Please read all of it this time. This is where we will end up, pay as you go, or steal your movies. Once again if a format persists it will be only for those willing to buy there hardware and software, and you won’t see cheap anywhere in that picture.

 

[whrswoldo]

Ok, make this simple. I’m wrong. Ok? There, hope that strokes your,…er…ego.

As to BR or HD, none of it is relevant in the long term anyway, which I might add is the reason I have no investment in either format.

I like a move to look like a movie and to date no HD format looks like a movie. They do however look like a cross between a video game and bad film, which to me is unacceptable.

For a very long time Sony was by far the easiest TV to sell simply because Sony always tended toward a color palette based largely on the pastels and their sets stood out when you had 50 to 80 sets all running side by side.

Both Pioneer and Mitsubishi tended toward a more earth tone color palette and frankly it took extra time to sell a customer on the far more natural look of these sets. As a rule a proper selection of demo movies would show the customer the difference and they were free to make a decision.

Now, with HD in any format we have a really strange color palette and even that varies by studio just as movie size varies by studio. Here it is almost 2008 and there are virtually no true 16x9 format movies on DVD and that is sad.

Even the next gen HD players leave a lot to be desired because they still cause visual fatigue, much the same as many CD’s cause listener fatigue.

While I admit the next gen disk and players may well extend the life of the market for home HD players, the entire concept of set top players will go by way of the of the dodo bird in the not to distant future.

I’ll try to explain in simple terms just for you. In case you missed it, home stereo systems for the masses died a number of years back. Aside from a few of us there is little or no market for a straight up music system anymore. We know this because virtually all CD manufactures and studios have announced they will end production of the CD format as soon as practically possible. Why you ask? MP-3 is the answer. In short nobody gives a damn about audio quality anymore, again except for the very few purist’s types and they are few and far between. So, if you want music you will either have to join a service and pay as you go or steal it.

Back to HD and BR DVD, the same situation exists there as well but only because the consumer doesn’t have the time to deal with competing formats, especially when every store they enter gives them a different story.

You are an HD zealot, god knows you have made that plain enough. The problem is you seem very oriented toward the cheapest product that will do the job.

My personal zealotry tends toward what gives me the best picture at a reasonable price, not the cheapest price.

First, on a TV I can’t stand pixels. Of my three HD sets one is a Pioneer 53” rear projection CRT based set, my wife chose that one for her use out of over 100 sets with no prompting from me. The set in my computer/work room is a Pioneer Elite 50” Plasma and the third set is yet another CRT rear projector based 48” Mitsubishi with a few modifications.

I play good old standard DVD’s on these sets but I use some pretty good players on them and most people think they are in High Def. All 4 of my standard DVD players are modded, all regular solder removed and replaced by pure silver, a few DACs replaced by higher end models etc. and hooked to the sets with better cables then most would be willing to buy.

Aside from my movie collection I have between 75 and 85 movies to pick from on Comcast cable with their On Demand service. That’s a lot of HD movies even if they are “only” 1080i. I also realize that neither Comcast or Fios will go beyond 1080i for many years to come, but not one person has seen any of my sets and suggested I need BR or HD to get an improved difference.

Virtually nobody will argue that the Pioneer Elite Plasma is the best TV out there and that is where I do my comparisons on various players given to me to bring home and evaluate.

Now, all that aside back to my point about how neither format will win in the end although you will probably see a spike in sales in the next year or two and then a sharp decline.

Forbes seems to understand the market especially based on history:

http://www.forbes.com/media/2007/10/08/highdef-dvd-forecast-biz-media-cx_lh_1008bizhighdef.html

Please read all of it this time. This is where we will end up, pay as you go, or steal your movies. Once again if a format persists it will be only for those willing to buy there hardware and software, and you won’t see cheap anywhere in that picture.

I want some of whatever the hell you're smoking. What color palettes do the pure silver solder and upgraded DACs on your modded DVD players emphasize? The neons, right? How did you mod your Mitsubishi, did you replace all the cabling with diamonds?

I was unaware that HD players cause visual fatigue, but then again my player has the original solder and DACs so maybe my eyes have just been permanently scarred.

Surely you were joking.

 

[<><]

Now, with HD in any format we have a really strange color palette and even that varies by studio just as movie size varies by studio. Here it is almost 2008 and there are virtually no true 16x9 format movies on DVD and that is sad.

damn movie producers, make 16x9 movies so it fills my screen, forget whatever aspect ratio you wanted to shoot the film in, we want 16x9!
/end sarcasm

reading BillR posts causes me visual fatigue

 

[BillR]

I want some of whatever the hell you're smoking. What color palettes do the pure silver solder and upgraded DACs on your modded DVD players emphasize? The neons, right? How did you mod your Mitsubishi, did you replace all the cabling with diamonds?

I was unaware that HD players cause visual fatigue, but then again my player has the original solder and DACs so maybe my eyes have just been permanently scarred.

Surely you were joking.

I was going to dignify you answer with various links and references to video fatigue. I was going to provide the same for what effect new DACs have in improving video clarity.

Then I read your lame response again. You are like a bad politician, twist words, misquote and flat lie just to feed your ego and support your own self serving ignorance.

If you as an individual assume you are above doing even a miniscule amount of research then I can’t help you.

Where did I state that DAC replacement had anything to do with color palette? I didn’t of course, but you chose to deliberately misquote me. In this case because you quoted my post and put your misquote in the same thread it would be fair to call you a liar. I might mention there is an entire cottage industry out there modifying DVD and CD players with upgraded components. As a rule the wal-mart customer is not their customer so there is no doubt in my mind you believe those people have all been brain washed.

I mentioned modifying a TV and you chose to jump to a ridiculous conclusion in what is little more then a sophomoric attempt at sarcasm, a skill I might add you totally lack.

I only pushed this thread so people would realize the dearth of knowledge and education to be found in most of this forum yet you and your kind continue to provide people new to the whole format with bad information drawn only from spec sheets and what appears to be an otherwise empty and closed mind.

If as they say “ignorance is bliss” you and your buddies have to be the happiest bunch of people on earth.

 

[whrswoldo]

I was going to dignify you answer...and I did by taking the time to type out 7 paragraphs.

Thanks Bill I'm honored.

I find it hilarious that you can say with a straight face that your DVD players (all 4 of them) provide better picture quality than an HD player would and then tell me that ignorance is bliss.

You can dress up a turd all you want but it's still going to be a turd.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray provide for more resolution and more bitrate for video and audio. This is not rocket science. I would love to hear your explanation as to how a film that was recorded digitally in 1080p, compressed and down-converted to a 480p DVD and then up-converted back to 1080p by one of your DVD players looks better or "more like a movie."

 

[BillR]

Thanks Bill I'm honored.

I find it hilarious that you can say with a straight face that your DVD players (all 4 of them) provide better picture quality than an HD player would and then tell me that ignorance is bliss.

You can dress up a turd all you want but it's still going to be a turd.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray provide for more resolution and more bitrate for video and audio. This is not rocket science. I would love to hear your explanation as to how a film that was recorded digitally in 1080p, compressed and down-converted to a 480p DVD and then up-converted back to 1080p by one of your DVD players looks better or "more like a movie."

Do in large to your total lack of reading comprehension (again) I tried to simplify what I wrote. I wrote 6 single sentences and one paragraph.

Again with the lies, where did I say my DVD players look as good as any HD player? What I did say was &#8220;not one person has seen any of my sets and suggested I need BR or HD to get an improved difference&#8221;. Again your lack of reading skills shows up because I made no reference to the above statement regarding my DVD players. Again with more lies, where did I say any of my DVD players converted back up to 1080p?

Now to your question; I have no idea how a &#8220;film&#8221; can be recorded in 1080p since film is an analog format and 1080p is a digital format. Perhaps you have a special camera?

 

[w1retap]

Now to your question; I have no idea how a “film” can be recorded in 1080p since film is an analog format and 1080p is a digital format. Perhaps you have a special camera?

1080p is a resolution Bill.

Film is scanned into digital at resolutions much higher than 1080p for the mastering process of HD DVD's and Blu-ray disks. Most films are scanned into digital at 2000 or 4000 lines of resolution.

For movies already shot digitally, they are edited and digitally mastered, then down converted before they go onto the medium itself.

 

[joemama]

Sony may be heavily invested in BD...moreso than Microsoft is with HD-DVD...but I don't think either company will tank if their chosen format comes out the eventual loser. I expect the cost of BD hardware to drop near to the level of current HD-DVD players soon which will prolong this nonsense even further. I've got my bases covered with both a PS3 and a Toshiba HD-A3, but to tell you the truth...I use the Toshie a lot more than the PS3 for movies for the simple reason that it's easier to use and does a great job of upscaling regular dvds, which is the media I still use the most. I have a nice 42" 720p plasma and would have to jump to an expensive 55" or larger 1080p set to see a night and day difference between BD/HD-DVD and a nicely encoded dvd that is upscaled to 720p.

 

[whrswoldo]

Do in large to your total lack of reading comprehension (again) I tried to simplify what I wrote. I wrote 6 single sentences and one paragraph.

Again with the lies, where did I say my DVD players look as good as any HD player? What I did say was “not one person has seen any of my sets and suggested I need BR or HD to get an improved difference”. Again your lack of reading skills shows up because I made no reference to the above statement regarding my DVD players. Again with more lies, where did I say any of my DVD players converted back up to 1080p?

Now to your question; I have no idea how a “film” can be recorded in 1080p since film is an analog format and 1080p is a digital format. Perhaps you have a special camera?

Learn to count, I spot more than 6 periods and question marks durrrr.

I said "recorded digitally," I obviously did not mean using an analog camera. Film is not only an analog format.

 

[[RCKY] Thor]

Now to your question; I have no idea how a “film” can be recorded in 1080p since film is an analog format and 1080p is a digital format. Perhaps you have a special camera?

There are several directors shooting direct to digital in HD these days. They maintain a fully digital workflow from shooting to editing to release in theaters on DLP projectors to DVD release. They do an analog conversion to film only for 35mm projector release.

As was said before even "films" in the true sense of the word are digitized for editing these days.

 

[BillR]

Learn to count, I spot more than 6 periods and question marks durrrr.

I said "recorded digitally," I obviously did not mean using an analog camera. Film is not only an analog format.

No, what you said was; "I would love to hear your explanation as to how a film that was recorded digitally in 1080p," that.

You can't even quote yourself?

 

[BillR]

1080p is a resolution Bill.

Film is scanned into digital at resolutions much higher than 1080p for the mastering process of HD DVD's and Blu-ray disks. Most films are scanned into digital at 2000 or 4000 lines of resolution.

For movies already shot digitally, they are edited and digitally mastered, then down converted before they go onto the medium itself.

I won't argue with you on this one because you are correct, but that's not what was said.

At some point the entire recording industry will have to make some sort of change if for no other reason then scanning actual film into a digital format is a bit of a kludge. At the same time most people don’t like the looks of pure digital tape except perhaps stuff shot for local news, local or cable commercials etc.

I think you will agree the world around us is analog, unless of course we are living in the Matrix. When what we see on the movie screen or on out TV’s should look like what we see daily and not be something that is made to look better then reality.

The obvious holdout on my thought would be animation. Since there is no real in animation (except for the really serious Star Wars fans) the only thing a producer needs to worry about there is making their product better then the next guys while keeping in budget.

In my mind the real art today (in film making) is the mix of real world with CGI, that can be some really interesting stuff to watch.

 

[H-street]

holy thread derailment batman..


anyways... back on track.. someone asked about movie sales alogn with the HD-DVD.. i actually stopped by walmart last night ot get Corpse Bridge in HD-DVD and i was pretty amazed at how picked over/out of stock their HD-DVD selection was..

granted walmart isn't best at restocking but woah.. there was only 3 or 4 different movies with 2 or 3 copies each (you know, those crappy movies nobody wants)...


suffice it to say they didn't have any of the movie i wanted in stock....

 

[whrswoldo]

No, what you said was; "I would love to hear your explanation as to how a film that was recorded digitally in 1080p," that.

You can't even quote yourself?

What about this are you having such a hard time understanding? "Film" can refer to an analog or digital recording; I used it in the same sense as the word "movie." Once again, this is not rocket science, I don't see why you are struggling so much with this concept.

I feel like I'm arguing with a 4th grader. Scratch that, 4th graders can count sentences and probably have a better understanding of what the word "film" means. Just give up, you are not anywhere near the topic of this thread any more.

 

[Nicolaskl]

You are like a bad politician, twist words, misquote and flat lie just to feed your ego and support your own self serving ignorance.

If as they say “ignorance is bliss” you and your buddies have to be the happiest bunch of people on earth.

Bill, were you asleep when you posted a bunch of BS about TVs under 50" not being able to be 1080p? And asleep again when you justified it by making up a bunch of BS about 1:1 pixel mapping and other lies? That's really the only way I could see you saying any of this with a straight face.

 

[BillR]

Bill, were you asleep when you posted a bunch of BS about TVs under 50" not being able to be 1080p? And asleep again when you justified it by making up a bunch of BS about 1:1 pixel mapping and other lies? That's really the only way I could see you saying any of this with a straight face.

I believe I gave you links for those, but you won't believe them either.

 

[w1retap]

The links were to blogs, lol. Please, for the sake of newbies, don't confuse them by spreading bs. That is how rumors start and misinformation is mistaken for fact. It just wastes everyone's time trying to straighten everything out when people come on the forums asking questions. I don't know if that is your goal or what, but please refrain.

 

[Orinthical]

At some point the entire recording industry will have to make some sort of change if for no other reason then scanning actual film into a digital format is a bit of a kludge. At the same time most people don’t like the looks of pure digital tape except perhaps stuff shot for local news, local or cable commercials etc.

This has been going on in the mainstream since George Lucas's ILM introduced the concepts of THX to the world quite a few years ago now. Very very few movies in Hollywood are still hand cut, most are scanned in frame by frame at a very high resolution and then spun down to the various HD formats/resolutions and standard DVD and VHS.

People "liking" it is purely subjective and is mostly caused by studio investment in standard equipment. Direct-to-Digital recording is still a very costly proposal for many firms and that is the biggest reason why many directors tend to say, "I like film better." As for the masses, people sure seem to enjoy an all-digital flick: The new Star Wars flicks are perfect examples of what can be done with Direct-to-Digital production.

================

I respect your various opinions, BillR, based solely upon the fact that they are yours yet I must disagree with your judgment of HD content. I myself have a very nice 110" 16:9 screen and 1080p projector where I do most of my TV and movie consumption, which sadly isn't much these days due to time. I enjoy theater-going but despise the ridiculous cost and, even having been to some projector/digital equipped upscale theaters, I think my basement theater looks (and sounds) much better.

My projector is powered by a Toshiba HD-A20 1080p HD-DVD player over HDMI 1.3, which my projector, receiver and player all support. Speaking of which, my receiver was chosen for its clean/crisp audio reproduction and feature-set and had little to do with price. Consequently, I saved a bundle in that respect. I've always been a Yamaha guy (and not the cheap Best Buy version either) but this time I decided to go with something else because I honestly thought they did a better job.

I've worked as an audio production engineer and "sound guy" in the past and have extended range hearing in both ears, one happens to be low and the other high. My love however is computers and technology, hence why I'm here and not over at AVS all the time.

I didn't spend a large fortune (maybe a small one) on my equipment nor did I have the solder or parts replaced in my DVD players. My standard DVD player is an HTPC which applies algorithms to upscale and clean-up the lower resolution image. You can't argue with math, it works. I do not have ridiculous over-sharpening or other oddities, rather I've invested the time to find a good arrangement that works both for my ideal processor utilization and picture quality targets. I am fully aware that I will never restore a DVD quality film to it's native resolution however it does look a whole lot closer when I'm done with it.

As for TV, I have Comcast HD and have to say that their quality is sorely lacking. Their compression kills their HD offerings, even the on-demand movies. While they certainly look better than broadcast television, it simply does not compare to playing an HD-DVD in-house. Since you have not; It may help you to better understand the format war should you invest in the technology yourself, either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD depending on your tastes.

Back on topic, somewhat:

For someone who states he understands the consumer market, you'll have to forgive me, you seem to have forgotten that the number one rule in the consumer world is the "rule of the wallet." If you've been too-long exposed to the "money is no object" people, who are very few and far between, you should really step back and re-examine the market. There will always be early adopters but in the end the masses will decide the winner. And this is where I see HD-DVD winning; it's not based on stats, features or visual quality, merely on branding and price.

Allow me to make an educated prediction: Sony (and its partners) will continue to hold-out as they classically have and refuse to drop the price on Blu-Ray components and branding. HD-DVD (and its members) will continue to drop prices, even at below-margin/below-cost prices because they are looking at the larger picture. Consumers will flock towards a familiar brand name and say to themselves, "Oh it has the same "DVD" in it that that I'm already familiar with so it -must- work with my regular DVD's as well." They will care little about "quality" or "the finer things" that you make mention of, they will merely say, "And Wow! I can get HD picture quality for $100!" They will care little about pure silver solder, quality components or even the fact that their six year old tube TV cannot reproduce the resolution they were recorded in. Heck, they won't even worry about cables since they 'know' the S-video or (God forbid) composite cable is still right there on the back. Who needs HDMI or even component, these terms confuse the average consumer. Most people just want it to "work."

In the end, I foresee whomever reaches the "cheap" price-point first will ultimately win the format war; because that is who the consumers will flock to in droves. We saw this with in the VHS wars, Mini-Disc versus CD, Laserdisc versus DVD and we will see it again in the Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD war.

HD-DVD was very smart in its branding and continues to act intelligently in the price war. We will see what Blu-Ray's response will be over the coming months but quite frankly - I haven't see much action from their camp thus far, aside from calling the other camp names.

 

[PS-RagE]

Lets keep this thread on topic and civil

 

[Orinthical]

Lets keep this thread on topic and civil

Thank you. I agree whole-heartedly.

Can we please stop comparing e-peni before the thread is locked?

Meh. Back on-topic.

 

[w1retap]

Holy crap, Orinthical understands what is going on. Right on the money, no pun in tended.

 

[SatTech]

Yup, he summed it up pretty nicely.

 

[Nicolaskl]

I believe I gave you links for those, but you won't believe them either.

Your links did not say that televisions under 50" are not 1080p. You misunderstood them, maybe you should read them again and think a little harder.