Wireless network for 20,000 sq ft office

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ciggwin

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***02/28/2011 update at post 39***

Our wireless network here needs some upgrading and I have been asked to see if I can come up with a fairly cheap solution. Since we are moving soon, the wireless needs of the new office may differ from this office, so that is why they do not want me to spend much money. I however, know what I am talking about, and I know that I will be able to take the equipment from this office and move it to the new office and use it there (which is going to be somewhat of a smaller office) but they do not really care and/or understand.

The current problems that exist are that the wireless is not that reliable. People drop a lot, and it says they are connected when they are not. A lot of times I have to just turn off their wireless card and turn it back on and let it reconnect. I know that a wired connection is best, but try getting 55 users to switch off their wireless and plug in every time they sit at their desk...

The WAPs right now are all different models of Linksys & Netgear, with the one to the far right being a Linksys WAP11 :eek:. I am assuming that these consumer grade APs are overloaded with user sessions and that there is channel interference, but I really don't know much about the specifics of how these things operate.

I know from the other thread I bumped yesterday that the channels could be changed and that may improve performance, because right now they are not in the best honeycomb fashion that is the standard for wireless networks. I actually just did this site survey the other day with Ekahau Heat Mapper and it seems to have done a pretty good job.

So I'm looking for advice on how to go about this task, whether it be rip and replace the entire thing or see if I can patch it up. I would rather rip and replace, but the budget is not going to be that large unless I can justify using it at the new office (for which I don't even have a floor plan).

As far as what I am thinking, I think I should re-arrange the channels on each AP so that they are in honeycomb form, as well as upgrade the firmware (if applicable) on all APs. That is the least I can do. Other than that, I would consider what I saw in the other thread, 5x Cisco WAP 2000 and one Cisco SRW208P.

I've also seen http://meraki.com/ and was curious if anyone had any experience with that technology.

This is a smaller business and we don't even have an IT budget that I can play with; everything is present and persuade in order to get approval. That being said, I don't even know how much a "reliable" wireless network for a 55 user office would cost in the first place.

Thanks again
 
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i mean, wireless is just not that reliable. You're asking to have a reliable wireless solution, but then the budget is not there for it. Sounds like the bosses need to make a decision. Do they want a reliable solution?--go with wired, or spend the money on some cisco gear, (cisco AP, and a cisco lan controller), or do they want a cheap solution, that is less reliable - keep using the consumer grade products..

what if you take away the access points? does everybody have their office/cubes wired? That;s what i'd do..so fuck it. Plug your shit in, at least then it will be reliable.

port security becomes an issue later on though..
 
Ruckus Wireless makes some good products, but they might be just out of an acceptable price range. The Wall mounted Zoneflex 7025 is <$200 and won't functionally take up a wired jack.
I could almost not be happier about the Ruckus stuff that I have used (which doesn't include the 7025).

Sometimes they have very good bundle pricing.
 
I have some Ruckus devices for sale is you like 2 Zoneflex 2942 models, pulled from jobs working...
 
MavsX said:
i mean, wireless is just not that reliable. You're asking to have a reliable wireless solution, but then the budget is not there for it. Sounds like the bosses need to make a decision. Do they want a reliable solution?--go with wired, or spend the money on some cisco gear, (cisco AP, and a cisco lan controller), or do they want a cheap solution, that is less reliable - keep using the consumer grade products..

what if you take away the access points? does everybody have their office/cubes wired? That;s what i'd do..so fuck it. Plug your shit in, at least then it will be reliable.

port security becomes an issue later on though..
Click to expand...

Tell me about it. I would love to pull all the APs and make people plug in, but the bosses won't let me do it because of all our conference rooms and they are too worried about having "cool stuff" like wireless (yep, even if it doesn't work).

This week has been hell. People keep getting connected but it's local access only. I've rebooted the APs and it seems like that fixed it temporarily, but I just keep telling people to plug in.
 
is the range covered with the units you have now? 55 users doesn't seem all that much, what is the main router?
 
As an update to this, I neglected to mention that I have a SonicWALL NSA 2400 and I am considering getting a few SonicPoints to replace our current setup of:

1 Linksys WAP11
1 Edimax EW-7206APg
2 Netgear WG602 v2
1 Netgear WG602 v3

Since I already have a SonicWALL NSA 2400, would you guys recommend putting in the SonicPoints or going with something else entirely?

The office definitely NEEDS wireless. We have areas with no drops where people have meetings and need to be connected.
 
never used the sonicwall gear, and i hate sonicwall products.

those are like 400 buck a piece it looks like, think you can do better then that.

i have used the d-link dap-2553 and it has worked good, i would say they might or hte higher end stuff may work, can also go with managed switch to manage them.
 
ciggwin said:
As an update to this, I neglected to mention that I have a SonicWALL NSA 2400 and I am considering getting a few SonicPoints to replace our current setup of:

1 Linksys WAP11
1 Edimax EW-7206APg
2 Netgear WG602 v2
1 Netgear WG602 v3

Since I already have a SonicWALL NSA 2400, would you guys recommend putting in the SonicPoints or going with something else entirely?

The office definitely NEEDS wireless. We have areas with no drops where people have meetings and need to be connected.
Click to expand...

Expencive and WAY over priced for those sonic points, they really don't have that much power either.

The Engenius ones are really nice and at 90$ a pop well worth it, and support POE. They are also sleek looking, looks just like a smoke detector, you can even turn off the lights on them too!

I have sold about 120 of them, so far no complaints here.
 
dashpuppy said:
Expencive and WAY over priced for those sonic points, they really don't have that much power either.

The Engenius ones are really nice and at 90$ a pop well worth it, and support POE. They are also sleek looking, looks just like a smoke detector, you can even turn off the lights on them too!

I have sold about 120 of them, so far no complaints here.
Click to expand...

The EAP9550? What would you recommend for a controller?

 
no controllers for them, as far as i know of. will need to manually configure and browse by IP
 
that isn't a controller IMO, a controller will allow you to log in, see all the devices and push a configuration to them, something like the D-Link.
 
marley1 said:
that isn't a controller IMO, a controller will allow you to log in, see all the devices and push a configuration to them, something like the D-Link.
Click to expand...

True, however i wouldn't buy a dlink if my life depended onit :)
 
you just said you like the d-link AP that i posted above the DAP-2553, these devices http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=634 have a wireless controller where you can push and configure (just a switch), still need a main router.

to the OP, you are only using like 6 AP, i do not think its worth it for the controller. I would go with either the AP i posted or the Egenius, configure them all manually... 192.168.1.20, 192.168.1.21. etc.etc. Add a strong router up front and hope all good. Untangle would be nice up front for the web filter.
 
marley1 said:
to the OP, you are only using like 6 AP, i do not think its worth it for the controller. I would go with either the AP i posted or the Egenius, configure them all manually... 192.168.1.20, 192.168.1.21. etc.etc. Add a strong router up front and hope all good. Untangle would be nice up front for the web filter.
Click to expand...

Configure them manually, but set them to hand out dhcp from the Untangle box ( firewall/av/spyware/webfilter vpn )

I just did one of these setups 4 weeks ago, the unit's all still working.

On unit plugged into the POE switch,
P1040161.JPG


Units being configured :
P1040163.JPG


Units running off the Cisco firewall, till the Untangle box arrives.
P1040157.JPG


Unit installed in it's spot, DAMi love POE :)
DSCN2721.JPG
 
yes thats how i would be doing it.

do those still have a problem with WPA? and are the lights insanely bright on them?
 
marley1 said:
yes thats how i would be doing it.

do those still have a problem with WPA? and are the lights insanely bright on them?
Click to expand...

THe g version uses Green lower brightness lights, but you can turn them off.

The blue wich is what i have :
P1040077.JPG


ARE BRIGHT! However you can turn off the lights, and i think in the new firmware you can dim them. Haven't upgraded firmware.

I use wpa2, no problems yet, still strong and havent rebooted mine since 3 months, ( install date )
 
Wow thanks for all the images, it is always cool to see things in images other than the stock photos.

I am strongly leaning towards the Egenius but you've mentioned pairing it with Untangle... I already have the SonicWALL NSA 2400 (recently purchased) - not running any AV or Spyware protection - do I really need Untangle? I also use OpenDNS. Do you suggest replacing OpenDNS with Untangle or something?

And yeah, I would only be needing 4, maybe 5 of the APs. The office we are moving into is even smaller than this one (20k sq ft) @ 15k sq ft.

 
ciggwin said:
Wow thanks for all the images, it is always cool to see things in images other than the stock photos.

I am strongly leaning towards the Egenius but you've mentioned pairing it with Untangle... I already have the SonicWALL NSA 2400 (recently purchased) - not running any AV or Spyware protection - do I really need Untangle? I also use OpenDNS. Do you suggest replacing OpenDNS with Untangle or something?

And yeah, I would only be needing 4, maybe 5 of the APs. The office we are moving into is even smaller than this one (20k sq ft) @ 15k sq ft.

Click to expand...

You don't need a untangle unit then :) just configure them with manual ip's but get there dhcp from your sonicwall :) your then set, but i would buy a 8 port poe switch tho, saves you so much money!
 
dashpuppy said:
You don't need a untangle unit then :) just configure them with manual ip's but get there dhcp from your sonicwall :) your then set, but i would buy a 8 port poe switch tho, saves you so much money!
Click to expand...

The way it is set up now is that they are spaced out in the office and run back to the server room with the rest of the wiring to the cubes/offices and they each plug in to our core Cisco switches.

So what you are saying I should do is essentially this?

AP1..................v
AP2..........> SWITCH..............CORE SWITCH
AP3..................^

Is there a downside to plugging them directly into the core switches and eliminating the PoE switch you mentioned?

Also, what kind of distance can I expect from these? I am having a hard time figuring out how many I should purchase for our space. I was thinking 5 for 20,000 sq. foot. Is there any downside to having more than I need? I would figure more is better unless the channels are conflicting because of their close proximity?
 
Your going to want a POE switch unless you plan on running power cables into the ceiling where your installing them.

Your situation really demands the use of enterprise gear. You need the ability to setup each AP to provide a blanket overlap of coverage to the next AP, that way users would switch from one AP to another without disconnecting and reconnecting. I'm not sure the AP's your looking at now support that feature.
 
Proactivens said:
Your going to want a POE switch unless you plan on running power cables into the ceiling where your installing them.

Your situation really demands the use of enterprise gear. You need the ability to setup each AP to provide a blanket overlap of coverage to the next AP, that way users would switch from one AP to another without disconnecting and reconnecting. I'm not sure the AP's your looking at now support that feature.
Click to expand...

Exactly why i mentioned having a POE switch :) no messy wiring in the ceiling.

The Access points i suggested are perfect for what you are doing, i setup 4 in a house and no issues at all from moving around the house.

The units are powerful and very nice looking, A POE switch on ebay or brand new is cheaper than paying a electrician to drop a power outlet at each access point :)
 
dashpuppy said:
Exactly why i mentioned having a POE switch :) no messy wiring in the ceiling.

The Access points i suggested are perfect for what you are doing, i setup 4 in a house and no issues at all from moving around the house.

The units are powerful and very nice looking, A POE switch on ebay or brand new is cheaper than paying a electrician to drop a power outlet at each access point :)
Click to expand...

Yeah what Proactivens is saying is that the units don't work together but I disagree...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I could have 5 of these with blanket coverage for the entire office on the same SSID and no one would notice when they switch from one to the next? Just put them on different channels in a honeycomb layout?

As for as PoE goes the WAPs now are all plugged in... it's an old industrial floor so the ceilings are like 20 ft. high and they are cement... so no ceiling mounts for me :)

 
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ciggwin said:
Yeah what Proactivens is saying is that the units don't work together but I disagree...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I could have 5 of these with blanket coverage for the entire office on the same SSID and no one would notice when they switch from one to the next? Just put them on different channels in a honeycomb layout?

As for as PoE goes the WAPs now are all plugged in... it's an old industrial floor so the ceilings are like 20 ft. high and they are cement... so no ceiling mounts for me :)
Click to expand...

Correct, are you able to get some pictures at all ?

j'
 
I wasnt saying it didnt, I was saying I dont know if it does lol. The last wireless project I did was using cisco enterprise AP's and they had a feature that allowed you to daisy chain the AP's so no one disconnected while moving along the office. That was a long time ago, G was brand new at the time lol.
 
Pro is right these devices dont manage the roaming which is handled by the client device. But on a small budget not much to do, just add good devices, and alternate channels. Show the user how to disconnect and reconnect
 
I'm confused now. Currently we have these shitty WAPs and it seems like they work across the whole office, where I don't have to disconnect/reconnect manually. Is Windows just doing it for me behind the scenes? If that is the case, then that's fine, I just need some good WAPs to replace the current ones. As long as it works the same way (users don't have to manually disconnect/reconnect when they walk across the office) I am OK with it.

dashpuppy, are you looking for pictures of the floor layout? This is one I overlayed using the Ekahau heatmapper:



 
55 users, 20,000 sq ft. Depending on the construction of the office, you'll be looking at somewhere around 5-8 APs going off a rule of thumb for a solid network. Is this network for critical data or just for leisure? You want to build something future proof that won't fuck up because once you build it, they will come.

That said, you want something that will work, and continue to work. Cisco is the only one with that reputation. What are you looking for in terms of RF? 2.4 and 5ghz? Need 802.11N or no?

You could get by with a Cisco 2106 controller, and 5-8 1230 or 1240 series APs. Off of Ebay your price comes to around $3,000, not including POE switch, which is a bargain. If you're really strapped for cash, you can just use POE injectors with whatever switch you already have in place. If you buy brand new, expect equipment costs to be around $10,000.

If you don't want to go with a managed solution (controller based), simply get some Cisco 1230 or 1240 series APs and run them in autonomous mode. They will have uptimes measured in years and only run a few hundred off of ebay.

Controller based is really the only way to go for anything business related. The ease of management is astounding and the features are awesome. Roaming like you described it above with your current APs is just like you said, Windows handles it. When a client roams, they perform the association, authentication, and DHCP process all over again for every roam even though it may only be a few seconds or less. Controller based roams happen in a matter of milliseconds and provides for true seamless roaming.

Since you're OK with what you have and just want more availability, get Cisco APs off of ebay. 1231's are like $100 or less. If you need the 5ghz band, get 1232's or 1242's for not much more. FWIW, I do wireless networking for a living.
 
It is way better to buy the controller with AP's and manage them all, than it would be to buy everything separately. More money now? Yes, but the ease of use is so much better in the long run. Less troublesome, easy repairs, and better deployment. Plus your boss(es) wont be on your ass every month or more to say we need to change the system again for a long time.
 
You cant turn an escort into a corvette. If you dont have the budget for the right equipment, whatever you piece meal together will likely leave users with a less than impressed feeling. You can spend the right money now for the right gear, or you can spend less money now for inadequate gear and continue to spend money over the long haul keeping an inadequate solution functional.
 
Look at the D-Link Solution, it has AP for like 80 bucks, and a managing controller. 3com also has something similar.

what happens with the disconnecting, is that the windows device will stay attached to AP1 as long as possible untill the range is to low and then it will switch to AP2 all on its own. This timing is different on every device. So the person could be very far from AP1 but still connected and having low speed, because the machine didn't reconnect to AP2. If you disconnect out of the wireless, and hit refresh, the strength should go back to better signal and you can just reconnect, because it is no seeing AP2 over AP1.

this happens all the time when we do houses with those Engenius, Dlink, UBNT, etc. If they are stationary people it is probably okay, but if they walk with a laptop may not have that true roaming. MAY....

Again if you are doing it cheap, your best option is to put more AP in so the area is covered. You dont need ceiling mount or POE ones, so you could be okay.
 
Proactivens said:
You cant turn an escort into a corvette. If you dont have the budget for the right equipment, whatever you piece meal together will likely leave users with a less than impressed feeling. You can spend the right money now for the right gear, or you can spend less money now for inadequate gear and continue to spend money over the long haul keeping an inadequate solution functional.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If you want seemless roaming, a Cisco 2106 and some Cisco 1141N's would be the best cheapest choice. But Cheap is $1300 for the controller and $500 for the access point and you'll want 5 or 6.

Super cheap is the UBNT and Engenius products. I have had to many issues with business grade d-link switches dieing. Never again.
 
UPDATE

Since we're moving to a new office I've got a bigger budget for the project.

Would folks STILL recommend AGAINST SonicWALL SonicPoint-Ni Dual-Band APs?

The company that is proposing our new phone system as well as some HP switches has proposed 6 new SonicPoint-Ni Dual-Band APs controlled by my SonicWALL for our 15k sq. ft. office.

It is either this or Cisco - with Cisco I would have to buy a controller. With SonicPoints I have the NSA2400 to be my controller.

MUST be centrally managed and able to configure multiple SSIDs (office, guest, etc.). That is really the only requirement.

My only hesitance is with the SonicWALL in terms of reputation/reliability - I've never used them before, nor do I know anyone who has. All I know about Cisco is that it is #1. But they said that about the phone system, and I like ShoreTel better...

 
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WiFi controller =/= firewall.

WiFi controller means that the actual wireless parameters (SSID, RF parameters, roaming) is handled by a dedicated box. The really high end systems can do automated RF management, which means that they can proactively monitor for interference conditions and switch around channel assignments to prevent dropouts.

A controlled wifi network would be something using Cisco, Aruba (etc..) gear. Ubiquity Networks also has a software based controller (though I haven't seen much info about it, I would advise that you look into it since Ubiquity gear is a bargain).

According to that datasheet, the NSA2400 can support 32 wifi aps.

Check out HP/Ubiquiti gear as well.
 
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