Windows just works and Other OS improvements

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by ManofGod, May 6, 2017.

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  1. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not really, since MacOS is not better nor worse but, it does just work, like the other OSes and I like that today.
     
  2. BulletDust

    BulletDust 2[H]4U

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    Of course the point you keep deliberately ignoring is that I'm not talking about some basic install on your tablet with Windows, Nvidia drivers and Office 365 (Office 365, depending on internet speed can take around half an hour to install BTW due to the fact it uses a web installer). I'm talking about everything, everything you use fully configured and ready to go. The biggest difference? On Windows all software has to be reinstalled, in the case of web installers, re downloaded and reinstalled - Under Linux this is not the case as all software and configuration settings can literally be dragged from one install to the next due to the fact that Linux is not limited by a registry.

    2 hours is way to long to get an install up and running.
     
  3. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Everything is meaningless when you're talking about setting up a device because what is everything? I have over 400 applications installed on my sig rig taking up around 2 TB in just app storage alone. I just added a half terabyte SSD I had on hand to it this week because I was running low on space. Things like VS and Eclipse from scratch in and off themselves require hours of setup. Even if I were running Linux setting up anything close to comparable would take many hours from scratch.
     
  4. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    I don't think you really understand what Linux users are saying to you. If you mount your /home directory on its own drive you can just keep it and reinstall your distro (or a different one) any time and just point to your /home directory. It means you don't have to set everything up again. You may have to redownload a few programs but you don't have to reconfigure them again.

    As a silly example if you have /home mounted as its own partition. Lets use something simple like dosbox.
    In my home directory I have the following hidden directory/file (if your reading this as a Linux software with user settings have their conf in /home/username/.program_name)
    /home/myusername/.dosbox/dosbox-0.74.conf
    If I format my / partition... and reinstall Linux pointing it to my old /home part, if the distro has dosbox preinstalled I don't have to do anything... it works just like it did before I reinstalled.
    If the distro doesn't have it out of the box I can download and simply click it in my PM (I can select 20 programs at once if I want no hunting software on the web) a min later... boom its on my system with the same conf it had previously.

    For global settings for samba setups and the like all you have to do is back up your /etc directory... its as simple as typing;
    sudo tar czf /home/backup-etc.tar.gz/etc

    Bottom line is your making his point for hime when you say things like VS and Eclipse have to be installed from scratch. When reinstalling a Linux distro if you have your /home setup properly and backup your /etc with the same types of software you retain all your user settings and the global settings are easily backed up and restored in under a min. (even large installs aren't going to have /etc backs up more then a few mb) So apache samba whatever you have spent hours configuring and tweaking... all those settings can be retained easily.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  5. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    And that's not a from scratch setup which I repeatedly mentioned. If you're using existing data fine. But if one is going that route is a zillion times easier just to close a disk.
     
  6. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    LOL no it won't. It can't magically remember the settings made in the registry of the original machine. If an application is designed portable then yes, it may create some default settings automatically. Most however will just not work.
     
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  7. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Registry

    The windows registry started life as you suggest a place for com based components. However MS used it to solve the issue of ini stuff being thrown all over the place by programmers... as MS never really came up with a prescribed method for keeping things clean. MS and their need for years to keep everything compatible have made a real mess. .net programs use xml files for conf (which is one reason .net plays nice with Linux)... running other windows programs in wine it has to setup a fudged registry. Many many windows programs use the registry to store user settings and system configuration.

    For a real world example a friend of mine is running windows and he has 3-4 DAW (digital audio workstation) programs installed... he also has a ton of VST plugs for them, and his machine has 3 audio devices and a specific midi card. There is no way in hell I could just reinstall windows and then copy his software back and expect anything to work. It would be registry hell. I would have to reinstall every piece of software and spend a few hours setting everything back up. If his machine was running Linux... (he has a Mac and a Linux machine he plays around with as well) I could reinstall his complete Linux system in around 30min or so I have no doubt... because yes I could keep his home directory and back up and restore his /etc settings in about a min. All his hardware setup would still be their, every piece of software he loaded would even remember which files he last used ect. Because all of their config files are in /home/his_username/.programname
     
  8. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    That depends on the program though, right? Serious question because, at least as far as redoing everything from scratch, I just find it easier to reinstall each program on its own. If there is another way to do it, I would like to know please? Thanks. :)
     
  9. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    I highly doubt Office2013 will work just by copying the file folder. It would make pirating it extremely trivial. Steam, VLC, iTunes... they're all programs designed to be portable and rely on the internet. Possibly the same case is with Office2013. Any program that actually stores something in the registry will not work at all or properly after doing the copy.

    Either you have an incredibly limited experience with Windows software or you're outright lying. Which one is it?
     
  10. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's quite possible that these few programs are portable or cloud based and there for do not rely in the registry anymore. There are a huge amount of programs that do however. So it's a case of inexperience.

    Anyone who has used windows for a bit longer and has had to go through a cycle of reinstall knows that a huge bunch of programs will just not work until you reinstall them from the media or manually add registry settings.

    SAP Business Objects Crystal Reports (both viewer and editor) is one example that I frequently have to deal with.
     
  11. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes exactly, hence the inexperience. If you haven't run into a situation where a software doesn't work after copying it from a computer to another or a backup to fresh install, you simply haven't done those operations much.
     
  12. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    Most windows software can't just be copied all that easily. Regardless settings would be lost for many more even if they propagate new settings when you run them.

    Still it is getting a bit better with windows. As I mentioned anything .net based should in theory anyway (assuming the programmer hasn't decided to add something in the reg anyway) be ok to copy as long as you copy over the username/Local Settings/Application Data xml config files for them. MS in their attempt to get in with the open source community has set .net up to play nicely with the Linux way of doing things. I can't say that copying .net programs over + xml settings files works 100% as I have never tried it but I believe in theory it should work.

    As for some of the others you mentioned VLC and itunes both come from the Unix based OS world... and I don't think either rely on the windows reg for much if anything. Steam has also been setup to conform to the Linux/Mac way of doing things and I believe there windows client works much the same way now so perhaps you could just copy things never have tried it. Media Monkey is fully windows but written by open source guys so I bet they are using the /Application Data directory and not the reg. I would be surprised to find office could simple be copied but again I have never tried such a thing.

    Copying things over in windows does mean you loose your windows uninstall info... but heck MS uninstall is no great package manager so perhaps that's not a big deal.

    I don't give MS very many pats on the back... mostly because every time they seem to take a step forward they take a few more back. :) What they did with .net is great... and windows .net based programs are much cleaner then they ever have been. Of course MS isn't pushing .net as their future. (they would rather the open source guys use it even though it offers nothing over the current options) No they stake their future on UWP which I'm pretty sure cannot be copied... they are free of reg issues and its clean, but I suspect a simple copy is out. Of course even if MS allowed their simple copy, their are reg keys that unlock specific hardware for some UWP programs ect which would need to be recreated for at least some of the more advanced UWP programs.

    If your interested on how programmers handle settings for UWP... as with .net they are kept in the /Application Data directory. I just doubt MS allows you to simply copy said directories around and have it work. As I say one step forward, another back. Its almost as simple as the Linux/BSD way of doing it, just not going to work. Due to the fragmented nature of windows software (w32 .net UWP) some may well copy no issues (other then loosing uninstall data) others won't and the future of their platform won't simply copy. (unless I'm completely wrong and you can copy UWP programs and settings... correct me if I am as I'm not 100% sure).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017 at 5:07 AM
  13. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    Dude, please grow up. Signed, The internet. :) Instead of calling him a liar, how about trying out what he says and see if it is true, eh? On a different note, does the programs have to be installed to the same drive letter?
     
  14. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    You miss the point as usual. A large proportion of Windows software will break if you strip the install time registry from it.
     
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  15. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    Cool, thanks, coming from you, that is a Hugh compliment. :D Me, I am more interested in what AltTabins is saying and how he reproduced the results. More than interested in learning more than I already know.
     
  16. Lunar

    Lunar [H]Lite

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    Wow, this discussion is still going? Whelp, time to throw my hand on the table again.

    Windows takes longer to get initially setup than Linux IF AND ONLY IF you were prepared ahead of time for setting Linux back up. Now, what do I mean by this?

    Linux can be installed and updated in about 20 minutes on my desktop. Windows 10 falls shy of this by taking roughly 30-40 minutes to do the same. The whole who updates faster argument is frankly a moot point here, because Linux is faster. Period. It just is, and with Linux not only is your system updated, but also all of your software. I can update every single package on my system, with the exception of Steam games, with one command in the terminal (sudo pacman -Syu) or one click in the updater. Everything gets updated. My office suite, web browsers, all of it. This is such a nice aspect of it, that Windows just doesn't compare. Now, that being said, when I'm setting up a Windows install, I don't manually install the applications I want. I use Ninite which goes a long way to making this process a lot like installing and updating applications in Linux, but it isn't the same and it isn't as fast.

    As far as themes, settings, etc. Bullet is right about reusing the same /home partition. This makes things instantanious as long as you installed your themes locally. If I reinstall my OS right now while reusing my /home, everything will be exactly as it was before with the exception of having to reinstall applications I use. However, Bullet isn't considering Windows 10's ability to sync settings to the cloud. When I install Windows 10, I only have to adjust a few settings because most of my customizations are configured as soon as I log in with my MS Account. This goes a long way to making Windows 10 very quick and easy to get set up the way I want it.

    Now to the preparation bit. I tend to distro hop on Linux quite a bit, which means I end up reinstalling a lot of applications by hand. I'm currently working on a script that will automatically install all of the applications I use, remove the ones I don't, and change config files so that my desktop will be setup the way I want it within seconds by executing one script. This is what I mean by prepared. Sure Linux updates and installs software way faster, but theming and customising can take a hell of a lot longer because of all the options available. Now, I love having those options, and as a tinkerer this is part of the appeal of Linux for me, but it does take time. Anyone who claims that tinkering with Linux doesn't take more time than with Windows is just kidding themselves.

    What really matters is what kind of user you are. What are you looking for. If you want a system that just works 95% of the time with minimal fuss, then Windows really is the way to go. It has the best hardware support out of the box, it has the most software support, and it's the easiest to get setup out of the box because you don't have as many options. This is just the truth. Of course, for someone who just wants to use a cmoputer for browsing the web, reading email, watching videos, etc, I'b be more than happy to install Linux Mint for them, and say here you go. If you only care about gaming, then using anything but WIndows is kinda silly at this point. If you want to tinker and play around with stuff, and are willing to roll up your sleeves when something inevitably breaks, then Linux si a great option. I run an Arch based distro because I'm not opposed to fixing things when they break, which they do. I actually quite enjoy it if I'm honest. That's not to say that things break all the time, they don't, but it does happen. Also, another platform that I've recommended to people who just want a basic computing experience is Chrome OS. I've been recommending that as an option for years now, and everyone who's gotten one on my recommendation has told me they love it. Out of all available computing platforms, the one that truly "just works" without any issues for the vast majority of users out there is Chrome OS. It's fast, lightweight, pretty much never breaks, and does everything most people want in a computer. In my opinion it really is the only OS that "just works" out of the box. Of course, it's also the most restrictive and closed down.

    So what does that tell us? It tells us that the more restricted and closed down an OS/ecosystem gets, generally the more reliablie and easy to use it is. Sorry Bullet, but it's kinda hard to argue this fact. The more control imposed by the platform holder, the less likely things are to break, and typically this also makes for an easier to use platform. It just kinda makes sense. This also goes back to my argument that Linux's biggest strength (openness) is also it's biggest weakness depending on your point of view and what you want out of your platform. People like you and I are more than happy to fix things when they break, edit config files to make something work just the way we want, and try out different stuff. Most people however don't want to do this. Most people want either something a little more tightly managed (Windows), or something that's more like an appliance (ChromeOS and more and more MacOS). Why do you think tablets and phones have started eating into the traditional computing market?

    I do think that eventually Linux will become the dominate platform for games, etc if MS continues down their current path. Windows 10 S and the focus on Windows as a service should concern each and every single Window sgamer out there. It is obvious that MS wants to control the platform unlike ever before. They are becoming more and more like Apple, and I wouldn't be surprised if the day comes where the only applications that can be installed are from the MS Store. I think this is what drove Valve to push Linux so hard. I thought Valve and Tim Sweeney were stupid a couple of years ago when they were claiming this was the case, but if MS takes the path I think they will take, then maybe they weren't wrong. MS is trying to turn Windows into an appliance, which will start driving people away. I know it sure did for me.
     
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  17. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    You're interested in having a limited selection of cloud based or portable apps and declare that all software is portable? How dumb is that.
     
  18. AltTabbins

    AltTabbins [H]ardForum Junkie

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    /thread. Best post this subforum has seen in years.
     
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  19. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not quite, Windows will never be a locked down S only version, just not going to happen. Clearly, there is a version called S but that is not to replace any other version.

    As far as Linux ever being the gaming OS of choice, that will never happen either. The fact is, Windows does just work In fact, the only reason I ever have personal issues is because of hardware only itself.
     
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  20. Hagrid

    Hagrid Gay for Kyle Fanclub President

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    Linux just does work also. If Linux could play all the games and have the apps, Windows would drop off as an other OS. ;)
    MS is working it's way into that happening. I wish them luck. They need it.
     
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  21. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    4 years ago the number of games in steams top 100 that would run on Linux could have been counted with 2-3 fingers. Today 7 of the top 10 run on Linux. Half of the top 100 run on Linux, and 20 of the remaining 50 run at platinum/gold level in wine. Today 4 years after Valve launched steamos we have almost 2500 Linux games on steam... and a ton more on the way. Most importantly Valve has convinced every major game engine developer to build in proper Linux support and tools. I fully expect that by this time next year 8-9 or the top 10 will be Linux compatible (a few of the "aaa" studios are paid off hold outs) and for 80%+ of the top 100 to be good to go.

    I know this is where heatle says ya ya ya but VR and I don't want to give up 4-5 FPS in any game. Well VR support in a year will be much better, as will performance. Many games today are ports, yes we all know it. Its not ideal but better a port then nothing. Going forward though all those Linux tools and support in the major game engines combined with the growing gaming support shown by both Nvidia and AMD is going to translate into real advantages for Linux. If Vulkan catchs on it will make life a lot easier for gamers in general.... no more being forced to X or Y windows platform by a silly no reason to be Version number DX scheme.

    The best way to make sure the industry goes where it should... is to support the move. I'm not suggesting you dump windows if your a hardcore gamer. However nothing stopping you keeping a Linux and Windows drive. Or at the very least... if your sticking to windows at least favour Steam games that have SteamOS support when you can.
     
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  22. Lunar

    Lunar [H]Lite

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    First off, I never said this was going to happen, I said it was going to happen if MS continues down the path they are going. You say 10 S will never replace any other version, and I say that it's almost painfully obvious that MS is positioning it as the replacement for 10 Home. As I've said in an earlier post, I believe 10 S will replace 10 Home, leaving Pro and Enterprise to hold down the non-locked down OS fort. You can deny this all you want, but if that wasn't the case then why do you think MS would build the premium Surface laptop and put 10 S on it? They're testing the waters. They want 10 S to become the average consumer OS, leaving Pro and Enterprise for everyone else. And never say never. Anything is possible, but I do agree that it will take quite a while, especially since for all the good Valve has done, Steam OS has been handled pretty badly so far, and Steam Machines were a HORRIBLE unforced error. If Valve would make SteamOS a proper OS that runs as a proper desktop with access to good repositories, then they'd go a long way to making Linux more approachable to gamers. As it stands now, it's UI is horrible, and software availability is terrible because even though it runs Debian, many of the repositories are disabled by default.

    Ok, let's not kid ourselves. In a great many games the loss is WAY WAY WAY more than 4-5 FPS. In most AAA titles I've played I either get roughly 50-70% of the performance in Linux as I do in the same games under Windows. The there's the issue with frame pacing. If a game doesn't have a dramatic performance drop, I tend to notice many games also suffer from awful frame pacing under Linux. Now, I think Vulkan will change things dramatically, because the one I've tried so far (Mad Max Beta), the performance was fantastic with no noticeable bugs, judders, etc.
     
  23. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardness Supreme

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    If 10s will replace 10 Home, then both 10s and 10 Home will be completely dead. 10s will be like 8RT, dead on arrival because of its extreme limits. From my perspective, it isn't denial but basic common sense.

    I honestly don't see 10s making it anywhere but in schools. 10 Home is the biggest PC gaming OS in use overall. Also, Steam, Ubi, EA and others will not let it happen. Steam on Linux is weak despite the increased number on there.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017 at 10:22 PM
  24. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    No I don't belive 50-70% is the normal even for AAA ports. The worst I have noticed myself is around 20%... but I don't tend to run standard ubuntu. Perhaps that helps. I will stipulate that their is a handful of bad ports. Not much different then the odd bad port that ends up on windows and runs like crap as well. For games designed to run in Linux ya often the difference is a few frames. Bottom line and the point I was making it improves every single day... and no one Linux die hards included would have thought Linux gaming would be where it is today even 3 years back. Valves push has made Linux viable... and they have always said it was a long term play. I truly thought they where insane at first. Those Gabe rants and SteamOS ??? I thought they flipped a lid as most people did. Now considering how far they have come in such a short time (yes 3-4 years is a very short time to gather the support they have now) and how MS seems to be just as evil as Gabe ranted about.... I'm sold. The performance issues are going to be smoothed out. I agree with you Vulkan can still be a major game changer. The main issue with all the opengl games is as you say anything "AAA" level is a port. That is going to start changing now though as Newer Unreal / Cry and Unity games start hitting that began development on versions with full Linux support from day one, Ports should become less frequent.
     
  25. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    I've witnessed 50-60% fps drops when games are run through wine, not the ported ones.
     
  26. BulletDust

    BulletDust 2[H]4U

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    In reply to Lunar's well written post, for the most part I do agree, but I can't help but feel slight bias in his reply based around long term Windows usage and comparatively short term Linux usage - Which, it has to be emphasized, is perfectly normal and I am not attacking him by any stretch of the imagination.

    What Lunar has achieved under Linux is remarkable and his definitely taking to the OS like a fish to water.

    In relation to the tweakability and the theming aspects of Linux when considering a fresh install, as I've stated, everything in Linux is folders, files and plain text scripts - Transfer everything into a USB HDD and drag it all into your fresh install, it's that simple.

    Furthermore, I'm not a simplistic user who's purpose is to surf the web. I'm a high end PC enthusiast that also plays enjoys gaming when I get the time and Linux does everything I need it to and more. If you want to play the latest Battlefield or certain other latest release titles, than yes, Windows is the better option for you. But make no mistake, Linux is far from the wasteland Windows users try to claim it to be - I'm certainly not loosing 50-70% in performance compared to Windows running NVIDIA hardware and drivers under any of the titles I've played nor have I experienced any frame pacing issues. There may have been literally one or two games that were poorly ported resulting in substantial performance differences between Windows and Linux, however there were also titles that performed better under Linux as opposed to Windows.

    If gaming was that bad under Linux, I wouldn't even be attempting to game under Linux, it's that simple.

    In short, I don't miss Windows and I really don't miss the need to use third party applications to achieve tasks that are supported natively under most other operating systems.

    In my experience, Linux just works better than Windows considering what I need my PC to do.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017 at 8:43 AM
  27. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's from scratch setup. Unlike windows registry, the settings can be backed up extremely simple so you do a total reinstall, then copy back the settings and you're running again.
     
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