Windows as a Service Is Failing

Zarathustra[H] said:
I wish they would just focus on making a good operating system, and give up any notion of having an ecosystem to go along with it.

I don't want:
  • 3D Viewer
  • Alarms & Clock
  • Calculator
  • Camera
  • Candy Crush
  • Cortana
  • Groove Music
  • Mail and Calendar
  • Maps
  • Messaging
  • Microsoft Edge
  • Microsoft Photos
  • Microsoft Store
  • Mixed Reality Portal
  • Movies & TV
  • OneNote
  • OneDrive
  • Paint 3D
  • People
  • Print 3D
  • Sticky Notes
  • Voice Recorder
  • Xbox
  • Xbox Game Speech Window
  • Xbox Gaming Overlay

I also don't want basic features that used to be built into the OS in previous versions locked out and available only through a Microsoft Web account I refuse to sign up to. No operating system should ever be tied to an online account. Local accounts should be the only login option.
Click to expand...


Remember back in the windows 95/98/me days where you had to buy a CD with all the Microsoft bonus software on it? If you didn't want it, you didn't buy it. Most of the time whoever you bought your pc from would include software bundles that you could just toss if you didn't want it. I hate that all of that extra junk comes preinstalled and forced in the OS. Luckily in the next major update (it might even ben 1809) you can remove all of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Plus!
 
AltTabbins said:
Remember back in the windows 95/98/me days where you had to buy a CD with all the Microsoft bonus software on it? If you didn't want it, you didn't buy it. Most of the time whoever you bought your pc from would include software bundles that you could just toss if you didn't want it. I hate that all of that extra junk comes preinstalled and forced in the OS.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I used to just do a fresh install the first thing when I got a new machine to avoid that preinstalled junk. Actually I still do, just to be on the safe side.

AltTabbins said:
Luckily in the next major update (it might even ben 1809) you can remove all of it.
Click to expand...

That is great news! Do you have a source? I'd like to read more.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, I used to just do a fresh install the first thing when I got a new machine to avoid that preinstalled junk. Actually I still do, just to be on the safe side.



That is great news! Do you have a source? I'd like to read more.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd love to see that too!
 
Honestly I still haven't felt the need to upgrade from Win7 64 and all these types of threads make me feel like it was a good decision to keep it.
 
Zarathustra[H]

Don't want to quote the whole thing and fill the thread, but these are all AWS instances running trusty (14.04). We are in the process of planning the move to bionic beaver (I still can't take that name serious for an enterprise product, but then we have disco dingo coming...) since trusty is losing support next april. But they are constantly trying to keep the nessus/vuls reports clean. Hell they will patch on a friday, run the reports on a saturday and already get dinged with a few high crit vulns.

The pip stuff is always some stupid dependency issue with some of the specific tools we use. The most recent issue was some kind of update to the aws-cli that wasn't compatible with credstash/urlib3 that was preventing instances from building. It's always something little, but takes a while to track down.
 
Lakados said:
There are lost of things like that out there but most of it was just anti Microsoft junk, even that article states the reason most of the ISO was against it was because they didn’t see the need for a new ODF spec when there was already an ODF spec. ODF is good don’t get me wrong but with Spreadsheets and Databases it lacked a lot of features that I’m glad MS included in the OOXML spec.
Click to expand...

It states a lot more than that. Liking OOXML is one thing, defending Microsoft's practices regarding standards that are supposed to completely eliminate compatibility issues when it's blatantly obvious that's exactly what they haven't done is bordering on blind fanboism.

Biznatch said:
Patching ubuntu is much more painful than windows. I only have to patch once a month, the ubuntu guys are patching weekly to keep the patch reports looking good. Centos isn't as bad but I'm glad I don't have any ubuntu boxes. And that's not even bringing up the dependency hell with pip package upgrades. You can spend hours trying to resolve those issues
Click to expand...

I have had far less issues updating and patching Ubuntu than Windows 10. I honestly cannot emphasize the words far less enough.
 
Mazzspeed said:
It states a lot more than that. Liking OOXML is one thing, defending Microsoft's practices regarding standards that are supposed to completely eliminate compatibility issues when it's blatantly obvious that's exactly what they haven't done is bordering on blind fanboism.



I have had far less issues updating and patching Ubuntu than Windows 10. I honestly cannot emphasize the words far less enough.
Click to expand...

I just can't see anything that Microsoft did that IBM/Sun didn't do in regards to the marketing and ratification of the spec, the difference is IBM did it earlier to get their spec in first.

In regards to Ubuntu totally agree, I really hope Canonical going public will get them a big enough cash infusion that they can get some of the needed Enterprise features in place so they can hit MS where it hurts and force them to play ball.
 
As a number of you have said, I've also had way fewer issues upgrading Linux (Devuan) than upgrading Windows 10. Only one upgrade has caused me problems in the last 2 years. The latest Thunderbird from the repository wouldn't work correctly until I disable apparmor. Just took a little google foo (actually duckduckgo foo) to find the fix.

Windows on the other hand has caused many issues, unsinstallling programs, bootup loops, broken drivers, etc. I now do most of my computing/programming in Linux and use Windows for games and the occasional Photoshop session. Hopefully, Steams Proton project will get all my games working under Linux.
 
Mazzspeed said:
It states a lot more than that. Liking OOXML is one thing, defending Microsoft's practices regarding standards that are supposed to completely eliminate compatibility issues when it's blatantly obvious that's exactly what they haven't done is bordering on blind fanboism.



I have had far less issues updating and patching Ubuntu than Windows 10. I honestly cannot emphasize the words far less enough.
Click to expand...

Was discussing server patching, not desktop. But I've had no issues with the w10 patches the company has automatically pushed to my laptop over the past 2 years though. The people on macs on the other hand are having a ton of issues with the latest updates and are constantly calling IT support over.
 
Jagger100 said:
I'm not sure the multiple versions has anything to do with it. Multiple versions was a Windows Marketing feature, nothing more.

Anyway the idea of Windows as a service is that you own Windows and its incrementally updated month to month as a quasi-continuous evolution instead of patched continuously for bugs and security with large feature/performance steps after 3-5 years. They made you pay for those large steps if you wanted those on your current machine.

There's no reason they couldn't offer those large steps for free. The large steps give developers one final version to evolve towards and develop to and more importantly to vet and check quality and optimize performance.
Click to expand...

You completely missed the point I was making about the multiple versions, but lets move past that.. The idea of Windows as a Service is that you **DONT** own anything! Its like cable TV. You stop paying, you dont get no service. Why do you think there are all the pre-installed apps like Candy Crush? Why is there all the telemetry up the yang? Why do they push their browser on you? Or put ads in your email? Because they need to monetize you and if you wont pay for the software out right (which they already know through years or trial and error) they need to get their money out of your through third parties. The current "version" of Windows isnt even the real vision of Windows as a Service.. What I described above is and its on its way....

The reason your big release with timed patches and bugs fixes wont happen is already addressed in my other posts too. But in summary, thats what they did before and its been blamed for allowing Google and Apple to gain market share so its never coming back.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I prefer apt based distributions for my servers. I find them easy to use, and I appreciate the frequent updates. I have never once in the 8 years I've used Ubuntu Server edition had an update break anything. (well, distribution upgrades, like moving from 14.04 to 16.04 can cause problems if you don't pay attention and know what you are doing with the replacement of config files during the updates, but inside a single distribution, never had a problem.

I don't even find the updates to be overwhelming in Ubuntu Server edition. On the desktop you have a constant stream of updates hitting the desktop environment and GUI apps that are installed, but on a headless server without any GUI installed there are relatively few updates, and they usually go in without a hitch.
Click to expand...
This is my experience (with apt-based distros) as well. Also, reboots for updates are few and far between. And optional.
 
Lakados said:
I just can't see anything that Microsoft did that IBM/Sun didn't do in regards to the marketing and ratification of the spec, the difference is IBM did it earlier to get their spec in first.

In regards to Ubuntu totally agree, I really hope Canonical going public will get them a big enough cash infusion that they can get some of the needed Enterprise features in place so they can hit MS where it hurts and force them to play ball.
Click to expand...

When it comes to ISO standards, the idea is that compatibility issues are 'completely' eliminated, obviously this is far from the case and costs companies billions. MS manipulated an ISO standard to suit themselves and justifying underhanded behavior with more underhanded behavior in relation to capitalist USA doesn't justify anything.

No one should defend this disgraceful kind of manipulation, ever.
 
Biznatch said:
Was discussing server patching, not desktop. But I've had no issues with the w10 patches the company has automatically pushed to my laptop over the past 2 years though. The people on macs on the other hand are having a ton of issues with the latest updates and are constantly calling IT support over.
Click to expand...

I've had no issues patching Ubuntu based servers, the same definitely can't be said for Windows servers...

MMC Snapins...Ugh. Give me SSH, a terminal and plain old text files any day.
 
Jim Kim said:
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...ate-will-let-you-uninstall-many-built-in-apps
Google FTW!
The update that enables removing all those pre-installed apps will be the next major update in spring of 2019. It’s currently targeted for April, but it could arrive a little later as Microsoft makes extra-sure it doesn’t screw up the second update in a row.​
Click to expand...
Sounds like a step in the right direction. However, it's worth pointing out which apps will *still* not be removable. You'll still be stuck with Cortana, the MS Store, and probably OneDrive, not to mention all the other ways MS have made Windows worse, e.g. tiles and the control panel/settings.
 
Mohonri said:
Sounds like a step in the right direction. However, it's worth pointing out which apps will *still* not be removable. You'll still be stuck with Cortana, the MS Store, and probably OneDrive, not to mention all the other ways MS have made Windows worse, e.g. tiles and the control panel/settings.
Click to expand...

I'm able to do that with Classic Shell right now, on Build 1803
 
Meeho said:
DX12 is all but DOA and all my Win 7 copies will function just fine past 2020.
Click to expand...
Well, outside of Vulkan, DX12 is very alive and well, so not sure what you are talking about - [H] even uses DX12 vs DX11 in many current GPU comparisons lately, so really, what are you talking about???
Also, Windows 7 will continue to function, obviously, but will no longer get any security updates, so if you are using Windows 7 systems with an Internet connection past January 14, 2020, then best of luck to you.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, outside of Vulkan, DX12 is very alive and well, so not sure what you are talking about - [H] even uses DX12 vs DX11 in many current GPU comparisons lately, so really, what are you talking about???
Also, Windows 7 will continue to function, obviously, but will no longer get any security updates, so if you are using Windows 7 systems with an Internet connection past January 14, 2020, then best of luck to you.
Click to expand...
Outside of a few bloated MS games in the windows 10 store, nobody's really making-DX12n-only games. Guess why.

DX11 will continue to be the standard and development target for many years, with a subset of DX12 features occasionally bolted on as an afterthought. This will continue to provide an opening for Vulkan to get better and more prolific.

Also, most people on Win7 now won't drop it just because January 2020 rolls around. And that's not a headache for those users, it's only a headache for Microsoft.
 
Last edited:
DPI said:
Outside of a few bloated MS games in the windows 10 store, nobody's really making-DX12 only games. Guess why.

DX11 will continue to be the standard and development target for many years, with a subset of DX12 features occasionally bolted on as an afterthought. This will continue to provide an opening for Vulkan to get better and more prolific.

Also, most people on Win7 now won't drop it just because January 2020 rolls around. And that's not a headache for those users, it's only a headache for Microsoft.
Click to expand...

You mean like when OpenGL overtook DX9? Oh wait...….
 
DPI said:
Outside of a few bloated MS games in the windows 10 store, nobody's really making-DX12n-only games. Guess why.

DX11 will continue to be the standard and development target for many years, with a subset of DX12 features occasionally bolted on as an afterthought. This will continue to provide an opening for Vulkan to get better and more prolific.

Also, most people on Win7 now won't drop it just because January 2020 rolls around. And that's not a headache for those users, it's only a headache for Microsoft.
Click to expand...
You aren't wrong about DX11 continuing to be the legacy-standard at this point with DX12 features added on.
However, this exact same thing happened over a decade ago when DX10 was emerging, and yet at the core, all games still used DX9.0c with DX10 as an afterthought for textures and occasionally shading.

Hopefully you are right about Vulkan, and while Vulkan does have my full support, I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I've had no issues patching Ubuntu based servers, the same definitely can't be said for Windows servers...

MMC Snapins...Ugh. Give me SSH, a terminal and plain old text files any day.
Click to expand...

Where are you using mmc snapins for patching windows servers? I've been doing windows administration for years and barely ever used mmc snapins except for quick SSL cert shit. Even that I do with powershell now, which can do pretty much all administrative tasks....... So I'm trying hard to see your point other than you like linux....
 
Biznatch said:
Where are you using mmc snapins for patching windows servers? I've been doing windows administration for years and barely ever used mmc snapins except for quick SSL cert shit. Even that I do with powershell now, which can do pretty much all administrative tasks....... So I'm trying hard to see your point other than you like linux....
Click to expand...

I'm not.

I'm just stating that I hate the inefficiencies of MMC. Good on you for using powershell, most Windows admins can't even do that. I also hate exchange and AD, DC, DNS and DHCP roles for a 15 - 20 employee small businesses, it's a concentrated point of massive network failure.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I'm not.

I'm just stating that I hate the inefficiencies of MMC. Good on you for using powershell, most Windows admins can't even do that. I also hate exchange and AD, DC, DNS and DHCP roles for a 15 - 20 employee small businesses, it's a concentrated point of massive network failure.
Click to expand...

Still trying to figure out what you use mmc for. Even before powershell I almost never used it.

And it's only a single point of failure if not setup properly. There is almost nothing in the enterprise market that can compare with a proper AD/Exchange setup at scale. I'm assuming by small business you mean they don't have the budget for a proper setup. I wouldn't touch something that small and would point them to O365 or a reseller.
 
Jim Kim said:
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...ate-will-let-you-uninstall-many-built-in-apps
Google FTW!
The update that enables removing all those pre-installed apps will be the next major update in spring of 2019. It’s currently targeted for April, but it could arrive a little later as Microsoft makes extra-sure it doesn’t screw up the second update in a row.​
Click to expand...

Nice.

Key word is "many". Will be interesting to see which they won't let you remove. I'm guessing at least the store and Cortana. For some reason they insist on that piece of shit constantly being present.
 
Biznatch said:
Still trying to figure out what you use mmc for. Even before powershell I almost never used it.

And it's only a single point of failure if not setup properly. There is almost nothing in the enterprise market that can compare with a proper AD/Exchange setup at scale. I'm assuming by small business you mean they don't have the budget for a proper setup. I wouldn't touch something that small and would point them to O365 or a reseller.
Click to expand...

Come off it, MMC is used for any number of things under Windows Server products for the masses not used to Powershell. Powershell has only been in widespread mass production use since 2007.

AD/Exchange "at scale", not in small business with 15-20 employees where it is almost never set up correctly. Like you I make use of cloud based solutions in such scenarios and I believe it's one instance where Windows server products are not only dinosaurs, but greatly abused - A little like Excel is abused and used for things it was never designed for.

Windows servers are great, to a degree, for enterprise. But proprietary is not always ideal for every circumstance. Where big iron is concerned, it's Linux all the way, and in such areas Linux dominates. Even at scale I'm finding cloud based solutions are becoming more and more popular as the technology matures. Even Microsoft are finding this market to be their bread and butter now with most of their revenue coming from their cloud based solution running Linux.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Nice.

Key word is "many". Will be interesting to see which they won't let you remove. I'm guessing at least the store and Cortana. For some reason they insist on that piece of shit constantly being present.
Click to expand...

It'll likely be as close to worthless as the powershell commands to "delete" some apps are now, where they just end up reinstalling themselves either randomly or in the next "feature update".

The brute force tools will likely still be required - ripping all the crap out of the installation ISO with MSMG Toolkit or similar. Because once some of that stuff installs and is allowed to take root - Edge, the Store, Cortana etc - you can't delete it post-install.
 
Last edited:
Red Falcon said:
Well, outside of Vulkan, DX12 is very alive and well, so not sure what you are talking about - [H] even uses DX12 vs DX11 in many current GPU comparisons lately, so really, what are you talking about???
Click to expand...
I'm talking about the handful of DX12 enabled games and...zero(?) exclusive ones.

Also, Windows 7 will continue to function, obviously, but will no longer get any security updates, so if you are using Windows 7 systems with an Internet connection past January 14, 2020, then best of luck to you.
Click to expand...
If I relied on OS patches for security I would kill myself.
 
Meeho said:
If I relied on OS patches for security I would kill myself.
Click to expand...



And really, what's actually going to be the more un-secure OS when Win7 does finally stop receiving security patches: a static Windows7 hardened by a decade of patched exploits, or swiss cheese Windows10 thats continually opening new attack vectors and security holes as a byproduct of continually changing, with new untested crapware and apps being introduced? Case in point the UWP bug that existed over 3 years which allowed trojan store apps to have access to the entire filesystem.

MS will have to relent and extend security patching of Win7 beyond Jan 2020 because there will still be too many PCs on it including Enterprise, and not patching will only shoot themselves in the foot with bad publicity, but even if they stopped I would still take my chances with Win7.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Meeho
like this
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top