Windows as a Service Is Failing

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by cageymaru, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Ah, I haven't used Skype in several years. That is a shame.
     
    DrezKill, N4CR and Lakados like this.
  2. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Skype is now kinda garbage, but Linc paired with Outlook & People in conjunction with Teams and you really have something if you are somebody who spends a lot of time running web conferences or demo's from a desk then it is amazing. But yeah Skype on its own is kinda dead I would wrather use Google Hangouts and that really says something.
     
  3. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    12,994
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Yep... I stupidly accepted the update, then immediately uninstalled it and installed Skype Classic. Then ignored every update prompt, and will continue to do so until they actually fix it, if they actually do.
     
    {NG}Fidel and DrezKill like this.
  4. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000

    Yeah, at work we must be one of the few places that still uses Notes/Sametime, and that shit really sucks.

    We are supposed to be transitioning to Office365 and (I presume) Skype for Business (the new name for lync?) but God knows when that will actually happen...
     
  5. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,700
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    What OS? What version? I had disabled updates and they eventually logged me out and forced me to upgrade or I couldn't work ffs. My old XP laptop still works fine on V7.4 IIRC without nags though, funny that!

    Really really do not want to use that BS so keen to see how you got around it, I tried the usual tricks that worked in the past for old versions.
     
  6. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    OOXML was supposed to be a totally open standard until Microsoft pulled strings under the table. The problem with OOXML is that it's not documented in any decent way at all, in fact most of the documentation regarding OOXML is flat out incorrect.

    I also believe this poor documentation is no accident. All people need to do is make use of ODF when saving files. Having said that, Libre Office does have a very handy Document Convertor Wizard that most don't even know about....
     
  7. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    The boat's already sailed. I went to download the patch rectifying the lack of hardware acceleration on desktop screensavers (?!) under Windows 7 for a customer the other day and was informed that if I wanted that patch I'd have to pay for it! There was no way around the paywall. That patch used to be a click and download thing...
     
  8. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,871
    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Wow, was it not running Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate?
    Perhaps Home and/or Home Premium have lesser support now.

    At least you should be able to download the GPU drivers from the manufacturer's website, hopefully anyways, darn. :/
     
  9. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Microsoft didn’t have to pull any strings OpenXML (aka OOXML) is a 100% Microsoft spec with over 6000 pages of documentation. ODF which was developed by IBM/Sun and is used in the OpenOffice suites as well as Corell and a few others was never influenced by Microsoft and was developed as “a truely open alternative” ODF coming in at a little over 700 pages of documentation wouldn’t be too bad if it weren’t for the fact that almost 400 of OpenXML’s pages referring to Spreadsheets alone are dedicated to features that don’t exist in ODF. Yes the conversion tool works pretty well but it works by translating what it can and chopping the rest. Yes ODF is a lighter more flexible format that is therefore easier to update in terms of pure feature sets and functionality it falls very short. In the 12’ish years since the formats release you can see how they have evolved and changed and while ODF has come a long way OOXML has come further and MS Office does a very good job opening and saving ODF documents.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  10. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    12,994
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Windows 10 Professional 1803. Automatic updates are enabled, but I installed Skype using the classic installer. The Metro Skype was uninstalled right away. I get nagged to update Skype each time I boot, but one click to ignore and it leaves it alone. Skype 7.41.0.101
     
    N4CR likes this.
  11. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,790
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    The thing is even their updates are screwing things up let alone the "worthwhile" features.

    Microsoft Windows is a product of a monopoly people expecting things of it baffles me to begin with....

    Bring gaming to Linux as a priority and you will see Windows base erode much faster.
     
    Monkey34 and DrezKill like this.
  12. TeeJayHoward

    TeeJayHoward Limpness Supreme

    Messages:
    9,483
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    That's ridiculous. I did forget that you have to turn off updates manually with High Sierra, though - Can't do it from the notification anymore. IIRC, you just pop up the App Store, go to updates, right-click the OSX/macOS picture, and turn it off there. My work iPhone hasn't bugged me about iOS 12.1 since about Halloween. It's still on 12.0.
     
  13. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    OOXML is an ISO standard, there is no doubting that Microsoft has manipulated this standard to it's own advantage and the documentation regarding the standard is severely lacking and inaccurate. There are OOXML compatibility issues between differing versions of Microsoft Office itself.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/war-rages-on-over-microsofts-ooxml-plans/

    And that's just one crumb, there's dirt all over the internet regarding Microsoft's manipulation of OOXML as an ISO standard.

    If anyone wants an office suite under Linux with almost 100% compatibility with Microsoft Office, WPS Office is the answer. It even has the same horrible interface as Microsoft Office.
     
  14. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,134
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005


    Microsoft has a really hard time saving failing products. As I've said previously, I think we're watching the Windows division fall into a tailspin like the phone division did. Windows isn't the big money maker for them any more. They clearly don't want to invest the necessary talent and resources to fix it.
     
    Ranulfo, {NG}Fidel and LightsOut41 like this.
  15. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,049
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    I'm tired of people giving me their email password to just login to the machine to make sure it's working.

    One update a year concentrating on security and performance and cut all the useless garnish bundled in. Stuff it in the useless Store if you have to so you can see how much no one wants any of it.
     
    Travolta likes this.
  16. naib

    naib [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,262
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Not it is not...
    The docx, xlsx, pptx file format, all part of the OOXML specification contain binary blob, as part of the actual specification. OOXML file can still only be open in MSOffice when dealing with file which fully utilises the specification. There is no way of knowing prior to opening whether a file is using some binary blob extensions or not ONLY once you open it and it goes fubar

    http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/ooocon2006/presentations/wednesday_o3.pdf

    Open specification, open fileformat ALWAYS.
     
  17. LightsOut41

    LightsOut41 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2017
    I wish we could go back to the Service Pack model. It worked and it worked well.

    Also, as mentioned above, stop baking in all of this extraneous bullshit that no one wants nor uses.
     
    clockdogg and testicle like this.
  18. Monkey34

    Monkey34 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,033
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    They are creating another problem in doing this though. I am coming across multiple rigs that just wont take the newer builds already. Rigs that came with anything from 7 - 8.1, and got the free upgrade are getting left behind on older builds - and not taking the updates. Now you have people who think they are secure and good to go because "It's windows 10", but really aren't because they now roll all the updates together and it's one or nothing. No isolating what individual update is a problem.
    The choice of spending the time on a backup, format and reinstall (and hopefully product keys are saved somewhere, and hopefully it takes the problem build update), and just use it most times is a "just use it".
     
  19. Cmdrmonkey

    Cmdrmonkey Gawd

    Messages:
    1,013
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2004
    I think most people would have been happy if they had just kept updating Windows 7 with security updates.

    8, 8.1, and 10 were OS's no one was asking for.
     
    Ranulfo, clockdogg and LightsOut41 like this.
  20. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    17,853
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Then don't release as many builds...

    I have no problem with more frequent updates than the 3-5 year cadence from before, but I also agree twice a year is too much for Windows when you consider how huge the ecosystem is.

    Apple can force upgrades on people because the only hardware it runs on is their stuff, so they know exactly how it is going to perform. Microsoft cannot do that.
     
    DocNo, Zarathustra[H] and LightsOut41 like this.
  21. dandirk

    dandirk [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,828
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    As an IT person that has been through OS upgrades, SP deployments multiple times... OS Upgrades and SPs were a major time suck and the business always postponed and lowered priority until the last minute or one day it was needed and then the project was pushed through with poor planning and would generally be a cluster F. All the while IT got all the blame on top of all the hours.

    This new process works a LOT better from an IT testing/deployment/resource view for the mid size organization I work for.

    Even SPs were a pretty big upgrade that required tons of testing. Tomorrow we will be 75% complete with our 3rd upgrade in the same span of time it took to do 1 of those using old methods. Each iteration we have scaled down testing, communication and thus resources needed.

    Out of 800 apps we have 5 mitigation/fixes needed.

    The old way businesses would fall behind, this new process it forces you to stay somewhat current so changes aren't as dramatic.

    I am not saying 2/3 updates is the way to go, personally I would agree 1 better release each year probably would be a good idea. I am saying MS has improved their update process as a whole, the cumulative and forced updating is good in the long run imo.
     
    mufcfan likes this.
  22. trparky

    trparky Gawd

    Messages:
    975
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Yep, I fully agree with what How-To Geek is saying. They need to slow down with these updates already. Installing these big updates is like playing Russian Roulette, you never know if you're going to get the loaded chamber this time.
     
    LightsOut41 likes this.
  23. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

    Messages:
    12,972
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Change the Oil make sure you use a Fram Extra tough filter to weed out the bugs caused by conflicts of Nvidia drivers. Windows just needs to stop updating and improving stuff that usually isn't any better than 5 years ago they can't even do color themes for Edge even.
     
  24. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    That’s not actually true.
    http://ooxmlhoaxes.blogspot.com/2007/03/ooxml-hoax-7-binary-blob.html?m=1
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  25. Oldmodder

    Oldmodder Gawd

    Messages:
    679
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    I will second that.

    I think nowadays windows are more a tool to mine people for information, and for pushing things to like commercials.
    I still don't like what Bill Gates monster ( windows ) do, only respect i have for him are his ventures into philanthropy.
     
  26. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Yeah it was one of the 11’s that was doing it 5 or 6 maybe I don’t remember but that month made my life hell. All a thing of the past now though never using that many Mac’s with out an MDM again. I’m a Jamf fanboy now.
     
    TeeJayHoward likes this.
  27. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    There are lost of things like that out there but most of it was just anti Microsoft junk, even that article states the reason most of the ISO was against it was because they didn’t see the need for a new ODF spec when there was already an ODF spec. ODF is good don’t get me wrong but with Spreadsheets and Databases it lacked a lot of features that I’m glad MS included in the OOXML spec.
     
  28. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,134
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    I'm sure there were a lot of people who liked New Coke.
     
    Nobu and Monkey34 like this.
  29. ChedWick

    ChedWick Gawd

    Messages:
    596
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    My major issue with windows 10 right now is just overall inconsistencies with behavior. I have literally had 5 of the same exact machine freshly imaged with the same exact image and all 5 have had different and odd behaviors. Issues like the start menu being completely blank for new users, default apps not being installed for new users, the settings app crashing every time you try and change the default to something non-ms related. Its infuriating because I never know what oddities I'm going to get and never know if its computer related, image related, or just windows 10 being windows 10. If it were the same machine or consistent among the machines/image I'd say its probably hardware or image related, but its not. Its completely random.
     
    AlphaQup, Lakados and tetris42 like this.
  30. LstOfTheBrunnenG

    LstOfTheBrunnenG [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,649
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    I don't think that plan worked out so well for them. My workstation has been on a 2016 build since I got it. At least I'm not still on 7...
     
  31. H2R2P2

    H2R2P2 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    406
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Windows can't be all things to all users. Whats funny is internally there is the mantra of "customer focused" yet at the same time, they dont trust the user-base enough to give them what they want. And the crux of that issue is that if they gave people what they wanted, there would be no way to make any money which again leads us back to why the Windows (and all software) will be done as a service..

    Hold on to your software as long as you can!
     
  32. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,445
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    I'm not sure the multiple versions has anything to do with it. Multiple versions was a Windows Marketing feature, nothing more.

    Anyway the idea of Windows as a service is that you own Windows and its incrementally updated month to month as a quasi-continuous evolution instead of patched continuously for bugs and security with large feature/performance steps after 3-5 years. They made you pay for those large steps if you wanted those on your current machine.

    There's no reason they couldn't offer those large steps for free. The large steps give developers one final version to evolve towards and develop to and more importantly to vet and check quality and optimize performance.
     
  33. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Funny thing is I never used Skype for anything other than simple video chat. I remember trying it like 15 years ago and thinking, video chat online, that's pretty cool, but ultimately useless for me. I don't need it. And then not using it again for like 10 years until I was interviewing for a lease on a house and the owners were a few cities over and they requested doing a skype interview. That time I installed the app on my tablet and did the video chat. I never explored any of the other features it offered. I don't even know what they were. I kind of just think of skype as facetime 7 years before apple did facetime.

    I guess at some point they developed it into a full blown collaboration suite? And then castrated it again?
     
    Lakados likes this.
  34. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,473
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Sort of, more like the forked it. They have the full blown collaboration suite which is really good for those who need it and the number of 3'rd party suites that can tie into it is insane but again that is only for the business side of things. For home users they gutted it down to a very simple mobile like interface which is good but ultimately frustrating for anybody who used it or was familiar with it before they gutted it.
     
  35. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    The only CPU's I've heard of not being supported are certain very old CPU's at this point missing NX, SSE2 and in some cases PAE (presumably for the 32 bit version). I understand Clover Trail Atom's no longer work since 1703, but I don't know what feature they lacked resulting in this.

    What kind of hardware have you seen issues with?
     
  36. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,303
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    DX12 is all but DOA and all my Win 7 copies will function just fine past 2020.
     
  37. Biznatch

    Biznatch 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,213
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    None of that shit is installed on the server OS.....

    Patching ubuntu is much more painful than windows. I only have to patch once a month, the ubuntu guys are patching weekly to keep the patch reports looking good. Centos isn't as bad but I'm glad I don't have any ubuntu boxes. And that's not even bringing up the dependency hell with pip package upgrades. You can spend hours trying to resolve those issues.
     
  38. Biostud

    Biostud n00b

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Totally agree, but they need to put all those things in to get their Surface line functional.
     
  39. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    I wonder what you run that is causing an issue in this regard?

    I prefer apt based distributions for my servers. I find them easy to use, and I appreciate the frequent updates. I have never once in the 8 years I've used Ubuntu Server edition had an update break anything. (well, distribution upgrades, like moving from 14.04 to 16.04 can cause problems if you don't pay attention and know what you are doing with the replacement of config files during the updates, but inside a single distribution, never had a problem.

    I don't even find the updates to be overwhelming in Ubuntu Server edition. On the desktop you have a constant stream of updates hitting the desktop environment and GUI apps that are installed, but on a headless server without any GUI installed there are relatively few updates, and they usually go in without a hitch.

    Only problem I ever had was back in the day when SSD's were super expensive. I built a server with a tiny 8GB Supertalent SSD for a boot drive, and my unattended kernel updates filled the drive, which was a PITA to fix.

    My current setup is a Proxmox host, which is Debian and thus APT based. It has 12 Linux containers and one VM running on it. All of the containers are Ubuntu Server based, most 14.04, but I am starting to upgrade them to 16.04 as the end of the support window is drawing closer. I leave automatic updates on for critical security updates. For everything else I go in roughly monthly, snapshot each Container/VM just in case, and then do a quick apt update / apt upgrade. Thus far I've never once had to roll back, as nothing has ever broken.

    The only key with Ubuntu to remember is this. If it is not an LTS release, don't use it. The absolute WORST release to use is th efoirst release following an LTS release, as that's when they tend to experiment with new shit, and it goes bad. For my servers I tend to use an LTS release until just before the support window ends, and then upgrade to the next one, leaving me wone full LTS release behind even when I upgrade.

    Example, right now I'm upgrading my containers from 14.04LTS to 16.04LTS. The latest release is 18.10, and th elatest LTS is 18.04LTS. This way I'm upgrading to a system that has had 2 years of stability testing and bug fixing already, and I am less likely to ever have any issues.

    With Ubuntu server, the number one thing to remember is, LTS or bust.

    The only time you want to use a non LTS release, is on a client machine with a GUI if you have new hardware not yet supported in the latest LTS. Then I'd temporarily run a non-LTS release, but only until the next LTS is released.

    Also, try to minimize the use of any proprietary closed source software. Whenever possible stick to open source software that is part of the official repositories. You are much less likely to ever have any dependency issues this way.

    Since I run a few versions older distributions for the sake of stability, I have yet to experiment with the new Snap package process. I've read a little about it and I don't like it. In general it is probably best avoided. Stick to the traditional repositories if you can.
     
  40. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,023
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    There is no reason this stuff needs to be part of the base OS. It can be an optional install.