Windows as a Service Is Failing

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by cageymaru, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Chris Hoffman of How-To-Geek has written an article critical of Microsoft's move to "Windows as a Service." He accuses Microsoft of updating Windows too much with new features instead of sticking to a yearly cadence with new updates like the corporation successfully did for decades. He argues that Windows is an OS and not a service. An OS needs to be properly bug tested for stability and reliability instead of new features added without fixing the last batch of security lapses and bugs.

    Please Microsoft, slow down. How about releasing a new version of Windows once per year instead? That's what Apple does, and Apple doesn't need "macOS as a Service" to do it. Just create a new version of Windows every year, give it a new name, and spend a lot of time polishing it and fixing bugs. Wait until it's stable to release it, even if you have to delay it. Offer every version of Windows as an optional free upgrade. If it's good, people will install it. If someone's hardware or software doesn't work correctly with the new release, let them stick with their old operating system.
     
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  2. Vader1975

    Vader1975 Gawd

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    doesn't work correctly with the new release, let them stick with their old operating system. nope let them suffer in no security update hell. It cost to much to maintain 18 versions of Windows at once. I'll have to side with Microsoft on this particular part. But they should stabilize Windows 10 as new features are not as serious as stability and speed.
     
  3. dyzophoria

    dyzophoria Gawd

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    It's not the "As a service" part that is having issues, MS just needs to polish their development cycle. I'm confused, He is saying apple is not doing a "as a service OS", isn't all new OSX version just updates to the old one? , I'm pretty sure this is the same with Windows (correct me if I'm wrong), the only difference is MS is trying a 2 major updates per year, rather than OSX's every 2-3? (If again I am not mistaken).

    I'm not on the bandwagon with having multiple windows version every year rather than improving One OS.
     
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  4. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    While I agree that Windows shouldn't be treated as a service, he has everything all wrong, and the business model he wants them to do is not a viable one. Free upgrades means the revenue has to come from somewhere else, and that circles right back to Windows as a service, not an OS. As an OS, it should be getting a paid massive feature update every 3 years, and it should work bug free out of the box.
     
  5. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    I wish they would just focus on making a good operating system, and give up any notion of having an ecosystem to go along with it.

    I don't want:
    • 3D Viewer
    • Alarms & Clock
    • Calculator
    • Camera
    • Candy Crush
    • Cortana
    • Groove Music
    • Mail and Calendar
    • Maps
    • Messaging
    • Microsoft Edge
    • Microsoft Photos
    • Microsoft Store
    • Mixed Reality Portal
    • Movies & TV
    • OneNote
    • OneDrive
    • Paint 3D
    • People
    • Print 3D
    • Sticky Notes
    • Voice Recorder
    • Xbox
    • Xbox Game Speech Window
    • Xbox Gaming Overlay

    I also don't want basic features that used to be built into the OS in previous versions locked out and available only through a Microsoft Web account I refuse to sign up to. No operating system should ever be tied to an online account. Local accounts should be the only login option.

    It's bad enough that these are pre-installed, This shouldn't happen. But at the very least let me remove them. ALL of them. Not just from my user account, but from ALL accounts, physically removed from my drive! For crying out loud, it is MY computer, if I don't want something on it, I shouldn't be forced to. If I want any of these things, I'll install them myself!

    Microsoft. You missed the mobile bandwagon, and there is no going back now. Do what you do best. Make a good operating system. Forget the ecosystem, and forget mobile. That ship has sailed.

    Windows 10 could be the best operating system Microsoft has ever made, instead it is held back by all this forced bullshit.

    I want my phone to be more like my computer, NOT my computer to be more like my phone!
     
  6. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    Microsoft is trying very hard to be Apple while still being Microsoft, And their development cycle is not currently up to task. Apple can do this easily, they have a limited hardware set, with limited drivers, in a pre configured environment. Microsoft on the other hand has a clusterfuck wrapped in a turd sandwich served on a cheap Asus. I know Microsoft has the ability to make it work, getting there is going to be painful for a lot of people, the question is do they follow the course or jump ship mid stream and give us Windows 11. Because sadly for Microsoft what Windows users want is no longer a viable business model so Microsoft needs to move in this direction.
     
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  7. Mohonri

    Mohonri [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'd argue that their development cycle, as disastrously flawed as it is, is not the root cause. The root cause, in my opinion, is that in their single-minded focus on pushing features and apps that nobody wants, they have neglected the basics. An OS needs to be dead reliable, and add-ons and updates must never compromise that. That reliability does not seem to be a priority any longer. Add on the clearly inadequate QA/QC process, and you've got a recipe for the kind of show-stopping bugs we've seen in every single release.

    I'm still trying to figure out what Windows 10's killer features are. I *still* haven't seen any features that interest me or would improve my PC experience, and lots of things that would make it substantially worse (starting with forced updates, lots of bloat, and tiles). Windows 7 had some substantial improvements over XP (Windows key + start typing!).
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  8. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Sure it is still a viable business model.

    They can still license the OS to OEM's and they can still get users to buy a new license (or an upgrade) every few years. Nothing here has changed.

    They just got greedy and wanted more. They saw what Apple and Google did with the ecosystem, freemium paid services, and data collection and said "I WANT IN". The thing is, most people were willing to put up with this on a phone. They don't hold their phones to the same high standard they hold their computers.
     
  9. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    I have just the thing for you.
    https://linuxmint.com
     
  10. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It would be sincerely nice to go back to service packs, even if the "Windows 10" moniker stayed the same.
    These "feature" or "creator" updates reset and/or break far too much, and I am seeing this on both personal and enterprise systems en mass, sadly.

    The OS itself is great, but just like Zarathustra[H] stated, having core features and programs be tethered to the Store as "apps" (along with the online account) instead of being built-in programs is just ridiculous.
    I also should not have to use, or write, a 3rd-party script to remove all of the unwanted Store "apps" like he listed above - there should be a built in option to get rid of, or flat out disable, these from the very start - again, without having to make my own image or scripts to do this.

    OS X and GNU/Linux variants all offer options like this, yet Microsoft forces this upon everyone.
    I get that this is their new OS model, but the cracks are not only starting to show, but are becoming serious problems industry-wide at this point, and something either needs to change or give with their OS in the near future, or quite a few individuals and companies are going to start jumping ship - MS Office/O365 and/or site/service license agreements be damned.
     
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  11. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I highly doubt that the old Windows development cycle and business strategy is no longer viable. The Windows as service is just the potentially more profitable option. Key emphasis on potentially.
     
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  12. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The only downside is lack of native support (without WINE) for MS Office/O365.
    This is totally great for personal use, but for most things in enterprise, LibreOffice just won't cut it; Google Docs, for most things however, will. :)

    Things get bad enough, though, individuals and enterprises are going to start jumping ship and going with Linux + Google Docs, and I don't blame them one bit.
     
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  13. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That is exactly what this has been about.
    I know Microsoft is trying and I certainly won't fault them on attempting new things (albeit late to the game, as usual), but their business and OS model are starting to fail hard.

    They really need to change the way things are being done with Windows 10 right now, because the OS itself is good, but the large updates and other "features" are what are starting to make things difficult across the board.
     
  14. mrweasel

    mrweasel Gawd

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    Also do not need Xbox support, Candy Crush or Minecraft on my Server OS....WTF?
     
  15. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    That's what I run primarily on my desktop and laptop.

    Windows has been demoted to a dual boot I only start up on the odd occasion I have the spare time play a game.

    I have totally lost interest in doing anything else in Windows the way things have been going.
     
  16. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    LibreOffice is actually pretty decent. It just falls flat because of poor formatting compatibility with Microsoft Word. People expect a document to look EXACTLY the same when they open it. If you author a document in Word and open it in LibreOffice Writer or vice versa it will usually look slightly different, and that is a problem.

    LibreOffice Calc also has some small issues when you use massively larger workbooks with hundreds of thousands of lines. This may be a problem for some, but probably not for most.

    Its a shame that the proprietary Microsoft format has become the defacto standard. Standards should never be proprietary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  17. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    The old development cycle works for their old process just fine. No their new release process, needs a new dev cycle they haven’t figured out yet. It is probably more profitable already, share holders are happy and they are really what matters.
     
  18. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    Libre office is pretty decent but it lacks a lot of features that Excel has, and the Microsoft office format is also an open standard. But you want to know the wonderful thing about standards? Everybody has their own. And to be fair you can open the same document between Libre Office and Open Office and NeoOffice and they won’t look the same there either and they are all direct forks of one another.
     
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  19. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    The web versions of O365 are pretty usable at this point. As a challenge to myself and to prove a point I have limited myself to using a $200 Chrome book for work and for the most part I can do all my job from it. The only thing it lacks at this point is some specific troubleshooting and diagnostic tools but for my paperwork duties I am finding almost no productivity loss working from it which is surprising a lot of people, myself included.
     
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  20. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    sudo apt-get upgrade
     
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  21. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris Wii was a Novelty

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    The fix is simple, just stop forcing the upgrade. Offer it as an option in the Windows Store so people can download it when ready. They can continue the exact same development processes as they do now.
     
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  22. DocNo

    DocNo Limp Gawd

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    Who would have thought firing all your QA people and relying on "insiders" to do your testing for you would cause a drop in reliability.

    Impossible to predict, that was.
     
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  23. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    That is not manageable.

    Since they have so many different builds out there now, 7 since only mid 2015, it would be impossible for them to maintain them all. Microsoft NEEDS to retire the old builds so they can focus their limited resources on the new ones, and they can't have unpatched users out there for security purposes, so they need to force the upgrades.

    I don't have a huge problem with the forced upgrades, if not for the feature changes I hate between editions and forced installed apps. If they just focused on making the best damned OS they could, and left the econsystem and apps up to the 3rd party provider of the users choice, I would be completely OK with this approach.
     
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  24. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    Yeah Microsoft can’t win if users leave their systems unpatched and they get hacked or a virus it’s Microsoft’s fault. This happens to a Linux user and it’s the admins fault, and just try using an unpatched Apple product, it nags you to the point of being unusable until you do. I do wish Windows 10 didn’t force install so many Apps in the Pro version though, home sure that’s a free license but not Pro. You have to move to Enterprise and LTSB to get away from that garbage and it isn’t fair.
     
  25. Twisted Kidney

    Twisted Kidney 2[H]4U

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    The last patch has given me the lock ups.

    Rolling back doesn't seem to have fixed anything.
     
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  26. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You know, that is a really good point about the web versions of O365, so that could basically make GNU/Linux a viable solution to a real-world, at least in enterprise, alternative. (y)
     
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  27. LstOfTheBrunnenG

    LstOfTheBrunnenG [H]ardness Supreme

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    LOL, show me the version of Windows Server that shipped with these items.

    If you want to run a server, use a server OS.
     
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  28. Advil

    Advil [H]ard|Gawd

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    HDR in Win 10 has been almost entirely functional since 1803. I've played multiple HDR games, for many many hours just in the last month. They all kick in and out of HDR properly every single time and the one that runs in desktop HDR as borderless window works properly too. Might be time to revisit your issues.
     
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  29. Sonicks

    Sonicks [H]ard|Gawd

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    Apple has updated Mac OS since at least 2011 (when I got my MacBook and it was still called OS X Lion) once every single year. They make a release every year and you get all types of updates right up until the new release at which point you can only update up to a certain point (such as individual apps) before you simply need to update to the new OS release. It's not forced per se but since you stop receiving updates altogether I guess it's more than a nudge to update.

    Honestly, I really do think Microsoft should take that approach. It seems mildly iterative to make small changes every year but over time you'll have an entirely new and more polished OS. Take for example the 7 year jump between OS X Lion and the newly released Mac OS Mojave or even the jump that iOS has made in the 11 years it's been out.

    I don't know how much of this is even a problem in the enterprise space as I can't imagine that MS would release major mandatory bi-yearly updates to its enterprise level OSs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  30. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    It really almost is but it lacks key enterprise management features. It also lacks key software sets, I am hoping that Canonical’s IPO offering is to generate enough revenue to develop those tools. Before Ubuntu was forked back in the day they were on track for all the features needed to enter the Enterprise market as a stable and backed competitor to Microsoft, but after the fork their resources were stretched too thin and they fell behind and never caught up. Microsoft’s Windows as a service initiative is doing what it can to line Microsoft up for a time when their OS is no longer the dominant factor.
     
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  31. H2R2P2

    H2R2P2 Limp Gawd

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    I will let you guys in on what the real motive is behind all this "Windows as a service" stuff..

    It all boils down to people not installing Microsoft's "latest and greatest" when it becomes available... Even if the "newest" version were free... What this situation leads to is the following:

    Microsoft releases a great product on a yearly cadence. Between releases, Microsoft makes feature enhancements, bug fixes, and security vulnerability fixes. 60% of the user base never upgrades or updates their software "between releases" which in turn leaves to the impression their software is full of vulnerabilities, bugs, doesnt have current "cool" features, etc.. Then the new yearly release comes out. The problem gets even worse..... 50% of the total user base stays on last years version and never upgrades, yet they still expect it be supported with bug fixes, vulnerability patches, etc. thus (eventually) leading to supporting end of life code, devices, etc... Then businesses get some sales pitch from Apple, Google, etc. or get exposed to it from their family using one at home, and they see how easy and secure their offering is vs. Microsoft. In reality the latest shiny product from Apple, Google, etc., is being compared to an old, outdated version of Microsoft's offering because the business (just like consumers) never deployed the latest version. So Microsoft gets hit from every angle.

    The other goofy part is companies like Apple and Google get away with basically doing exactly what Microsoft is doing, but they are doing it in a more limited scope (such as in Browsers, app updates, etc.). The real issue with Microsoft is not the release schedule, its the fact they literally fired ***ALL*** of their testers in the first round of layoffs a few years back. The idea was that releasing beta software via flights in the Insider program would be enough to find all the bugs was the miscalculation.

    I can guarantee you there is no way they are ever going to get rid of this type of release schedule. If it were up to me, I would try to find ways to simplify the OS and make it more targeted and compartmentalized. For example, have buckets of activity (like productivity, gaming, workstation, remote worker, etc.) and find ways to address the specific user needs and experiences within those functional areas, but then follow up with a way to let the user chose which of those areas they want to have installed and what the primary uses of the computer are. Doing so would let them follow the current update scheme for the areas it made sense or where it didn't negatively impact the user base while at the same time allowing them to easily tailor messaging to those same user bases as to what the benefits and trade offs are, etc.
     
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  32. TeeJayHoward

    TeeJayHoward Limpness Supreme

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    Actually, this is one of the many things Apple does well in their UI. On both iOS and macOS, you get a notification when a new update is available. You can choose to install now, install later, or not install. If you choose the third option, you don't get notified again until a new version is available. It's one of many solutions I wish Microsoft would offer.

    Microsoft has lost touch with their user base. For the most part I don't run Windows anymore. Many of my IT co-workers are similar. Heck, even our corporate machines are migrating away from Windows. If MS doesn't get their head out of their ass and stop pissing off their customers, they might lose a serious chunk of market share.
     
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  33. clockdogg

    clockdogg Gawd

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    Microsoft failed copying Apple/Google in mobile. Now M$ is trying to copy Apple on the desktop by deploying the failed Windows mobile strategy. Again. Only bigger. With more fail.

    How about Microsoft take Win10 As A Service out of service. Spend time porting DX12 to Win 7/11 (2 weeks) and keep rolling out security updates - sans M$ telemetry spy-adware and if need be, charge a reasonable maintenance fee for Pro versions.
     
  34. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    As neat as it would be to see DX12 come to Windows 7, that boat has sailed.
    Windows 7 extended support only lasts until January 14, 2020, and then it is game over for that OS.

    Even as much as I would like to see that happen, that would be a financial detriment to Microsoft to implement such features in an OS that is basically on life support at this point and has not been sold (other than NOS) in years now.
     
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  35. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    I wish that were the case but I can say it’s not, I’ve got over 100 MacOS devices in some of my buildings and before I got them all into a proper MDM (yay Jamf, I love them) after the 4’th or 5’th ignore or if the user doesn’t have the access rights to actually do the update it just spams them with the update now prompt. Every 1-2 minutes it pops up in front of what ever you are doing and forces you to hit a not now button, and god forbid they aren’t signed into iTunes which most weren’t it would ask for the password with a pop up window every 30s or so. It rendered most of my Mac’s completely unusable for a solid 3 weeks until I got accounting’s approval to get the needed MDM licensing.
     
  36. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    Even if they offered it paid the ungodly amount of work they would have to do in the back end would leave the system in a spaghetti bowl of unstable. By current standards Windows 7’s security is not adequate the amount of effort and licensing costs of securing it against modern threats is getting costly. Windows 7 was great, windows 10 can be too if only MS would stop ramming the “extra’s” down our throats. Until recently I had never actually used windows 10 Home or Pro just Enterprise and LTSB. I recently decommissioned 50 4 year old laptops and just rebuilt them with the Win10 equivalent of their original OEM licenses and Home was an ungodly mess I couldn’t bring myself to use. Pro was manageable but only because you could get rid of 90% of the annoyances from PowerShell, which we did as a kindness to who ever purchased them when we put them up for public auction in the coming weeks. So to anybody in the last year who was using Home or Pro and was complaining and I blew you off, I apologize, that shit is rough.
     
  37. Randall Stephens

    Randall Stephens Limp Gawd

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    And they laughed when in went 6700k and windows 7.
     
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  38. JSumrall

    JSumrall [H]Lite

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    1803? DILLY DILLY!

    Sorry, couldn't resist. :D
     
  39. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

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    This but i'll keep the calc and the recorder for once in a blue moon use, thankfully win7 doesn't come with most of that stuff though.

    But if you think windows is bad, check out skype lately.
    They literally turned it into some shitty mobile app, it's about as bad of a UI as snapcrap, it can't even run multiple windowed mode, you can't even set status as 'away' any more and the interface is slow, inefficient and clunky. They killed lots of other stuff, saw lot of people bitching abotu desktop sharing and other features too with heaps of other users. Microsoft is systematically ignoring all of these complaints but the 'away' setting and to the point now they are locking requests on the skype forums because so many people are pissed off. They couldn't have done a better job if it was deliberate, so obviously they want to kill skype (as they have almost totally downgraded it feature-wise since buying it) and they forced that version on anyone with Win7 and up. I'm going to run an XP Vm to use the older version which strangely still works just fine. I think there may be a way to trick it using that later if some smart autistic coder figures it out..
     
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  40. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    I just wish I could get an Enterprise license for my home machine. :(
     
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