Windows 8 sucks so bad. So So So bad. 8.1 doesn't help.

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Burticus

Supreme [H]ardness
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Nov 7, 2005
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So today my uncle came over, and he is far from a power user. His ancient 7 year old XP laptop was giving him too much grief and he wanted a new laptop. I gave him a couple of suggestions after looking at the Microcenter website, and he bought one. It was a $350 (his max budget, really) Dell with a Pentium dual core, 4gb of ram, and Windows 8. I told him up front my experiences with Win 8 have not been great but I would try to help him get settled into his new laptop, transfer his data etc etc etc.

First off, this was a brand new laptop and it had regular Win 8 on it. Not 8.1. So we went through the new system process which I like to call the Time of 1000 reboots. This is not unusual and is to be expected for anyone who buys a new computer off the shelf.

So we go through the Dell wizard and finally... Win 8 comes up. I have had a little experience with 8 in VM test systems but never as a full on OS. I knew about the charms bar and how to get to desktop, I figured I could wing it. First step was to let Windows Update have it's way with the system for a while and do the 1000 reboots. Except.... where was Windows Update? I half assumed it would prompt me automatically to update... it didn't. I figured give it a few minutes while I do some other things (back up his old computer to a USB drive, etc). 30 minutes later... Win 8 has made ZERO prompts or anything to update. After 10 minutes of Googling, I FINALLY figured out how to get to Control Panel and manually run Windows Update. 1000 reboots begin, hours go by.

A ton of Win 8 updates, reboot. Windows 8.1 update, reboot. Windows 8.1 SP1 (or whatever you want to call it), reboot. Detected a whole load of more updates, reboot. Keep in mind I am running Windows Update MANUALLY each time, there are zero prompts to update anything, like would happen in 7.

FINALLY I think the updates are done. Now it's time to uninstall Dell bloatware. Where is add/remove programs? It's not in the freaking control panel. Launched charms and searched for appwiz.cpl, which it found. Uninstalled a ton of useless crap (McAfee trial, a ton of Dell crap, amazon apps, ebay apps, etc etc etc). Many reboots ensue. Finally I'm somewhat OK (I had to google half the things to see what they were, mostly Dell stuff). OK, time for legit Antivirus. Download Chrome, then NOD32. NOD32 installs and updates (takes a while). Reboot, reboot. Now, NOD32 is saying "Windows is not up to date", ran Windows Update manually AGAIN. ANOTHER truckload of updates. Time passes, reboots occur. It's been like 3 hours now and my uncle is visably upset and starts mumbling about "screw it, maybe I can return it and still use my old laptop".

3 hours later and now we have an updated Win 8 with Chrome and Antivirus. Time for Office 2013/365. I had already bought a legit key, so I launched the Office tile hoping it would take the key so I wouldn't have to install from scratch from my USB drive. Seemed to work, it took the key and then..... and then.... is it doing anything? No progress bar or something that would indicate it was loading. 30 minutes later it appeared to have installed. OK. Looking for Word and Excel (all he cared about, doesn't use Outlook THANK YOU BABY JESUS).... where is Office? No icons on desktop. Go back to Metro, no Office tiles (even the one I clicked on earlier to start the install was gone). No tiles for Word, Excel NOTHING. Start panic googling.... no good results. Finally ran search manually (like I did for appwiz) and it found and launched Word and Excel (respectively) which I pinned to his taskbar as independent icons.

By this point, I am BEGGING him to consider using Start8 or Classic Shell. Hey look it's free for this one, $5 for that one. I offered to GIVE him $5 for Start8. Nope, he says he just has to get used to it. Good luck, buddy.

We're at the 4 hour mark now, time to make system restore discs or some kind of rescue/repair disc. Finally find and launch the Dell recovery program... remember when those recovery programs used to pop up FIRST, making the first step to make your backups? Yeah, good luck with that. Dell recovery program scans the system for who knows what for 10 minutes, then I see the option (it was greyed out earlier) to create the restore media. Grab my DVD spindle... and OH LOOK THIS FKING LAPTOP DOESN'T HAVE AN OPTICAL DRIVE, BECAUSE WHO USES DVD MEDIA IN 2014, RIGHT? Dig through my closet for 15 minutes to find a DVDRW drive and a sata to usb adapter. Right after I found them I see an option to use a USB drive. Cool. Except it wants to format it first, not cool. Have to copy 10gb of data off a 16gb thumb drive to the desktop then let it format it and create a bootable USB recovery drive. I put the DVDRW drive away... 30 freaking minutes later to copy 1 DVD's worth of data it's done. Then I have to copy the backup data BACK to the USB thumb drive, so he has a valid backup. Time passes....

6 hours on this BRAND NEW laptop, I was ready to throw it out the window. He had to leave so I told him to play with it but I told him where to find Start8 and download it (if he can figure out how to get to Chrome anyway).

What a nightmare. And I can't blame Dell too much (except for saving $20 and not putting a DVD drive in... it even had a slot for it but it was empty!)

I found Windows 8 to be frustrating unusable just doing these things... and this is for a guy who only cared about 3 things... Chrome, Word, Excel. What if he had other apps to install? More data to copy? God forbid anything else. As he was clearly frustrated packing the stuff up I showed him how to connect to Wifi... he said he no longer cared he would use the Cat5 cord.

What in the name of the angry gods was MS thinking with this bullsh!t? Who was their target market for this crap? I mean I would take Vista 100x over this crap.

I expect him to call me crying tomorrow, and I will tell him to deal with it or return it. Or let me wipe it and put Win 7 on it. Not cool, MS, not cool.

Rant ends. And by the way, I am an IT professional for 15+ years, been building my own systems since 1992, and I have installed just about every OS known to man, going back to the DOS days. This whole experience just baffled me and why would a new user tolerate it?
 
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LOL... half of those issues could have been resolved if you had bothered to look through some 8 guides. If you didn't know to run Windows Update through Control Panel, you really don't have much of a right to call yourself a power user. Yes, it is a bit of a pain that they removed the update notification, but if you knew Charms, why didn't you go into the settings menu from the Charms bar? Update and Recovery is one of the prominent options after entering that menu.

Also, I'm not sure if you were being prematurely frustrated with 8.1 or simply not looking, or it somehow didn't exist because Dell screwed up on their Windows installation, but on all of my 8/8.1 systems, the Add/Remove programs is in the Control Panel. Also, right click the start button. Gives you access to nearly all the system controls the typical user would need. Again, a short 8/8.1 tutorial would have shown you this trick.

On the Start Screen, there's an arrow at the bottom left that leads you to the All Apps screen, where all your program shortcuts would be pinned. Again, a short 8/8.1 tutorial would have shown you this.

It sounds like 90% of your actual problems could have been figured out if you had bothered to take 10-15 minutes to read up on the changes and how to navigate in 8.1. The Add/Remove programs... well, that is simply strange, either Dell did something or something got screwed up somewhere, because it is in the Control Panel, and also conveniently located in the right-click start button menu. Updates? A fresh 7 computer will experience the same thing. And updates can be ignored and done by your uncle on his own time. Or simply set it to update automatically.
 
I hate the Modern UI as much as the next guy, but about halfway through this post I realized it's likely an ID-10 T error you are experiencing.
 
That's the life of using Windows.

Also, most "new users" go to best buy and buy something off the shelf with everything pre-installed. Then they get home and install every toolbar add-on and spam ware virus scan program they can find. So, no. Not the same process...
 
OK I'm a good sport and will admit I might have read more Win 8 guides. But I mean I had installed it myself previously 2 or 3 times and it never occurred to me on a test VM I would use control panel so much. I mean I barely use it on 7.

Tsumi said:
why didn't you go into the settings menu from the Charms bar? Update and Recovery is one of the prominent options
Click to expand...
Did that I didn't see anything popping asking for updates. If you do a scratch install of 7 and leave it alone connected to the internet for any amount of time it's going to complain about updates.

Tsumi said:
On the Start Screen, there's an arrow at the bottom left that leads you to the All Apps screen, where all your program shortcuts would be pinned.
Click to expand...
Yep, found that. Office/Word/Excel etc was nowhere to be found.

Tsumi said:
And updates can be ignored and done by your uncle on his own time. Or simply set it to update automatically.
Click to expand...
He has crappy DSL, I have high speed FIOS. I can only imagine how long it would have taken him to install at his place. Plus I wanted to make sure 8.1 with the current updates were installed.

I give Tsumi an Asshole rating of 3/10, he offered valid suggestions to remedy things I brought up.

bigdogchris said:
I hate the Modern UI as much as the next guy, but about halfway through this post I realized it's likely an ID-10 T error you are experiencing.
Click to expand...

Asshole rating 8/10. NO valid points offered.

FNtastic said:
That's the life of using Windows.

Also, most "new users" go to best buy and buy something off the shelf with everything pre-installed. Then they get home and install every toolbar add-on and spam ware virus scan program they can find. So, no. Not the same process...
Click to expand...

Yes, this would have totally been the case. And while I was backing up his data off a 7 year old HP running XP I saw a good chunk of the original bloatware still there...


Yes, clearly I do not prepare Windows 8 laptops for end users on a regular basis. I am not a PC helpdesk, I have a real job. I just don't grasp why MS would go out of their way to make the experience so frustrating.
 
I feel for you...that's a shit experience. I had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn't reading this thread while dreaming, it sounded that horrific.

I've never experienced any of these issues with the severity you have...must be a mulligan. Come to think of it, I've never experienced issues with Windows 8 period :(.
 
Tsumi said:
The Add/Remove programs... well, that is simply strange, either Dell did something or something got screwed up somewhere, because it is in the Control Panel, and also conveniently located in the right-click start button menu.
Click to expand...
He probably put the Control Panel into icons view immediately after opening it like most luddites do. The convenient "Uninstall a program" link in the category view that takes you right to the 7-style Add/Remove Programs dialog is called Programs and Features there.
 
So because you don't know where things are it's trash? Right clicking the lower left windows icon would have led you straight to any one of those things.
 
Surprised you had so many issues. Can barely tell I'm even running Win 8.1 now and I'm not even using any 3rd party apps to change anything. Boots to desktop, so it's just the occasional thing that isn't in the place I expected. Started using Win+S and found that to be a reliable way of finding programs. Surprisingly enough I've not come across any compatibility issues either.
 
My favorite experience when I first put Windows 8 Pro on my HTPC (still the only rig in my house with Win 8/8.1/whatever) was that windows update was broken and wouldn't install any updates.

How do I fix it? Well there is an update in windows update that fixes that... :rolleyes:
 
Burticus said:
OK I'm a good sport and will admit I might have read more Win 8 guides. But I mean I had installed it myself previously 2 or 3 times and it never occurred to me on a test VM I would use control panel so much. I mean I barely use it on 7.


Did that I didn't see anything popping asking for updates. If you do a scratch install of 7 and leave it alone connected to the internet for any amount of time it's going to complain about updates.


Yep, found that. Office/Word/Excel etc was nowhere to be found.


He has crappy DSL, I have high speed FIOS. I can only imagine how long it would have taken him to install at his place. Plus I wanted to make sure 8.1 with the current updates were installed.

I give Tsumi an Asshole rating of 3/10, he offered valid suggestions to remedy things I brought up.



Asshole rating 8/10. NO valid points offered.



Yes, this would have totally been the case. And while I was backing up his data off a 7 year old HP running XP I saw a good chunk of the original bloatware still there...


Yes, clearly I do not prepare Windows 8 laptops for end users on a regular basis. I am not a PC helpdesk, I have a real job. I just don't grasp why MS would go out of their way to make the experience so frustrating.
Click to expand...

There would have been no popup. The default behavior of notifying you about updates is on the lock screen. Or maybe in the action center, if you were far out of date. And obviously, you can't access updates through the lock screen. But I was saying, in the PC settings in the Charms menu, there's a category for updates and recovery, and that would have allowed you to check for and install updates. Maybe it wasn't there in 8, as things did get moved around and changed.

Office shortcuts should have been placed there. Unless you did something during installation and chose not to install shortcuts into the start folder/menu. I can agree that the All Apps menu has a crap layout, but all shortcuts appear there for everything you install, as long as a start menu folder was created for it. The only explanations for it not being there is either you overlooked them, didn't look through it properly, or for whatever reason chose not to install start menu shortcuts during installation.

He can install at his own pace in the background. It wouldn't get in the way of his work, except for the occasional "Restart now to install updates." And what happens when he doesn't see you again about the computer? He won't install the updates anyways. Doesn't matter whether it's 7 nagging you or 8 not nagging you, most people don't install updates on their own. For the typical user, just leave it with automatic updates.
 
Do not remember this much trouble "starting out" W8.
FWIW I can find no reason for abandoning a familiar methodology, renaming everything, and making housekeeping annoying to frustrating.
Hope you set up "Microsoft account," many apps are only available through this.
VLC (beware tad along toolbars) seems easier then Microsoft dumb down.

Set up and working, W8 is acceptable.
Changes or software can be challenging to "run and hide." For older hardware/software some drivers are not available.
Good luck, and do not expect easy..
 
User error, uninstall a program is in the control panel, most of your issues can be solved by pressing the start button and typing the name of what you want to find. Giving people a-hole ratings nets you a 11/10.

I run win 8.1 on my desktop, on a vm on my mac laptop, and my htpc, no issues at all like yours.
 
wtourist said:
Do not remember this much trouble "starting out" W8.
FWIW I can find no reason for abandoning a familiar methodology, renaming everything, and making housekeeping annoying to frustrating.
Hope you set up "Microsoft account," many apps are only available through this.
VLC (beware tad along toolbars) seems easier then Microsoft dumb down.

Set up and working, W8 is acceptable.
Changes or software can be challenging to "run and hide." For older hardware/software some drivers are not available.
Good luck, and do not expect easy..
Click to expand...

The Control Panel itself did not change, though there were some annoying changes in the sub options (e.g. user accounts throws you into metro control panel). Ribbon took a bit of getting used to, as does using the Start Screen. And the wifi settings. Otherwise, virtually everything else was identical to 7. Registry, system tools, etc, can all be accessed in the same way, and do the same things.

I do individual sign-in for apps. I haven't found any apps that require signing in that are worth using on a desktop/laptop though besides email for notifications, and weather, which doesn't require signing in.
 
Fail thread. All user errors. Take some time to research the OS changes before complaining and looking like a fool.
 
3 hours from off the shelf to up to date? Sounds like it went very well, sounds like user issues, not knowing or understanding how to operate the new os. Not sure, was there supposed to be something bad about windows 8 in this post? Try doing a windows 7 original disk install, you will be the better part of a day doing all the updates, if you can get them all to run.
 
I have to admit, when I set up my first Windows 8 box (my HTPC) it was an exercise in frustration.

I read the guides in advance of getting to work, but still it was a bit painful. Microsoft essentially broke the intuitive user interface in place for almost 20 years since Windows 95, and ever for a power user like myself, everything just took longer as every step I had to search around the machine for where the config setting I wanted to change moved to, or revert back to reading the guide.

A year on, I have gotten used to it (but still prefer Windows 7 and earlier). Things still take me a little longer than in Windows 7, but I have gotten to the point where it isn't that frustrating anymore.

I'm all for change when it is an improvement, but the UI changes in Windows 8 were rather arbitrary IMHO, requiring users to relearn how to do the basics, without much benefit. From that perspective Windows 8 was a bit of a fail, but once you are used to it, it gets better.

I'm all in favor of positive change, but change for the sake of change, without any real benefit is just plain stupid IMHO.
 
What kind of 15+ year IT professional can't summon a Windows 8.1 Update full install ISO on command?

Also, I loved the rant about optical drives. Yeah, laptops with no optical drives in 2014, what could they be thinking?! yeah! ... yeah!
 
Its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, sure there are some weird things but nothing that rises to your level which you have described.

SuperSubZero said:
Also, I loved the rant about optical drives. Yeah, laptops with no optical drives in 2014, what could they be thinking?! yeah! ... yeah!
Click to expand...

This is funny to me because Dell sends me laptops with DVD recovery media, and the laptops I order do not come with Optical drives. I asked them to stop and they said, " Sorry its policy."
 
SuperSubZero said:
What kind of 15+ year IT professional can't summon a Windows 8.1 Update full install ISO on command?

Also, I loved the rant about optical drives. Yeah, laptops with no optical drives in 2014, what could they be thinking?! yeah! ... yeah!
Click to expand...

This wasn't a scratch build, it was an OEM Dell laptop with Win 8 pre-loaded. Why would I blow that away (and lose the license key, but I suspect there is a way to back that up somehow on 8) and lose all the drivers and extra special Dell bloatware? Seriously who would buy a brand new laptop and blow it away as step #1?

A lot of my issues could have been avoided if I had done a scratch build, which is not what we were trying to accomplish. I think I should have done the Office 2013 install manually instead of just plugging the key into the preload. I was trying to save time and it missed something during the preloaded "install" and didn't create icons.

And if this was an Ultrabook with no optical I wouldn't have been shocked... but this is an entry model and it had a place for one, they just didn't install it. For the record I told him to buy an external one for $20 (even if he only used it 3 times ever) and he didn't listen to me.

As everyone here has pointed out I must be an idiot for having any problems d!cking with this stupid laptop. Point I was trying to illustrate is that MS threw us under the bus with the new UI and just expected us to deal with it.

It doesn't matter though, I will try to refrain from posts to the H forum any more since it's been populated by know it all buttheads.
 
I have owned a Dell laptop with windows 8 on it and I did not have nearly this amount of problems. I am not saying you did something wrong, but it just sounds like Dell loaded a very old image of Win8 on the machine. Really this sounds like a Dell issue not so much a Win8 issue. Also everyone makes mistakes, flaming you for it is probably not the best route, but there is a curve with the new OS and reading may have helped. But hey as long as the end user is happy that is all that matters.

Luckily for me I have not needed to use Win8 in the corporate world yet. I have had to use Sever 2012 which uses Metro. All in all though I think you calling people buttheads is a little 1994, but ehh its the internet, rant away my friend, we all get frustrated from time to time. Just don't lay all the blame on Win8.
 
You can hit the windows key and start typing "add or remove" and it will come up with the Add or remove programs link. Windows 7 works the same way.
 
Windows 8 is a piece of shit: Truth
Windows 8 isn't as bad as you make it sound: Truth
Windows 8 is still a piece of shit: Truth
 
This ship has really sailed, guys. 8 has been out for almost 2 years now. Even the Vista hate train rolled out after 12-18 months. Get it together.
 
Windows 8 is much more crash resilient than Windows 7. Windows 8 has a more streamlined kernel and the attack surface has been greatly reduced. Many programs run faster on Windows 8 (with the same hardware). Windows 8 is a much better overall OS. If you don't like the charms or the start screen, then disable them. I'm tired of idiots complaining because they don't want to adapt. The world is ever changing and there is no room for those that say, "back in my day".
 
CEpeep said:
This ship has really sailed, guys. 8 has been out for almost 2 years now. Even the Vista hate train rolled out after 12-18 months. Get it together.
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that's probably because MS actually fixed vista :D

Hardly the piece of shit most of the vocal minority say it is but hey, it's cool on the internet hate Windows 8..
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I wouldn't say a minority... with the exception of 3 people, almost everyone I know IRL hated Windows 8 from the start (no pun). Friends and family, that got new laptops/desktops, were constantly calling me to reinstall windows 7 for them (which I just installed 3rd party start menus because the majority of previous licenses were from an OEM... and also to get them off my back)... and the ones still on older rigs with Windows XP-7 are afraid to upgrade as the complaints from others scared them off.

I can appreciate some of the stuff MS put into Windows 8, but the hate for metro is warranted IMO. Basic users don't know shortcut keys and crap... they know icons and where to find them. And likewise, advanced users are usually very particular with their workflow. It wasn't wise of MS to just throw that all out the window opposed to more gradual changes (again, IMO)

There is a reason why the adoption rate has been less than stellar.
 
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This thread is full of funny. I run Windows 8.1, because I get it free from work. Had 8 before that, 7 before that. Slap a start menu replacement (I use Classic Shell) and voila, it's nearly identical to Windows 7.

It all boils down to this. Should users be forced to use the Modern UI? No. Should they be forced to download a third party start menu replacement to avoid the Modern UI? No.

Is it the end of the world to do so? Not at all. It's just an OS, and in my mind the goal is to look at it as little as possible.
 
dr.stevil said:
that's probably because MS actually fixed vista :D



I wouldn't say a minority... with the exception of 3 people, almost everyone I know IRL hated Windows 8 from the start (no pun). Friends and family, that got new laptops/desktops, were constantly calling me to reinstall windows 7 for them (which I just installed 3rd party start menus because the majority of previous licenses were from an OEM... and also to get them off my back)... and the ones still on older rigs with Windows XP-7 are afraid to upgrade as the complaints from others scared them off.

I can appreciate some of the stuff MS put into Windows 8, but the hate for metro is warranted IMO. Basic users don't know shortcut keys and crap... they know icons and where to find them. And likewise, advanced users are usually very particular with their workflow. It wasn't wise of MS to just throw that all out the window opposed to more gradual changes (again, IMO)

There is a reason why the adoption rate has been less than stellar.
Click to expand...

Fair detailed opinion and I can see your point with the Metro usability. I agree they didn't do a great job of making it easy to adopt (hot corners, hot keys etc.. Something casuals never really delt with). I just don't think it's a "piece of shit" as it's labeled constantly. Take away the fullscreen Start Menu... It's one of the best OS's I've ever used.. I honestly don't even mind Metro.. Once you organize it and pin to the taskbar correctly.. You're hardly ever actually in it.

Again though.. Your opinion well thought out and written.. I can engage in conversation with a post like that. :)
 
dr.stevil said:
that's probably because MS actually fixed vista :D



I wouldn't say a minority... with the exception of 3 people, almost everyone I know IRL hated Windows 8 from the start (no pun). Friends and family, that got new laptops/desktops, were constantly calling me to reinstall windows 7 for them (which I just installed 3rd party start menus because the majority of previous licenses were from an OEM... and also to get them off my back)... and the ones still on older rigs with Windows XP-7 are afraid to upgrade as the complaints from others scared them off.

I can appreciate some of the stuff MS put into Windows 8, but the hate for metro is warranted IMO. Basic users don't know shortcut keys and crap... they know icons and where to find them. And likewise, advanced users are usually very particular with their workflow. It wasn't wise of MS to just throw that all out the window opposed to more gradual changes (again, IMO)

There is a reason why the adoption rate has been less than stellar.
Click to expand...

I can agree with a lot of this, but the workflow issue is generally exaggerated especially when looking the latest version. I don't think there is really any significant difference between 7 and 8.1 Update 1 when it comes the most common things people do on PC, even productivity related tasks.
 
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