Windows 8 Sales Well Below Projections, Plenty of Blame to Go Around

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by heatlesssun, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    So, November 2012 Steam HW&SW Survey shows 4.25% of Windows 8 64-bit and 0.44% of Windows 8 users, that is 4.69% in total - close to the number of Windows Vista 64-bit users (4.77%) and a bit less than half of the Windows XP users (10.83%; 10.36%+0.47%).
     
  2. jmilcher

    jmilcher [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,386
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Hilarious! XP is STILL competing and win8 has not even found its feet.
     
  3. Steelgrave

    Steelgrave Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    253
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    You're using it wrong. ;):D
     
  4. wonderfield

    wonderfield [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,396
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    You make it a point to bring up interaction inconsistencies in OS X in a Windows 8 thread? I find that incredibly ironic.
     
  5. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
  6. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    The Modern UI however is extremely consistent, and ironically it's that consistency that baffles a lot of folks. For instance, Search in Metro apps is always done in the Charms Bar, all apps that support search work the same. And yet I've lost count of the posts that claim that apps don't have a search function because people are used to looking inside individual apps that would invariably been inconsistent in exposing search.
     
  7. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    1) i wasn't the one who came up with the "if OS X wouldn't be tied to hardware" topic.
    2) sorry, but OS X is incosistent with everything else. Everywhere else Home/End/Page Up/Page Down means exactly the same thing. Linux ? FreeBSD ? Unix ? Windows ? They mean the same thing. OS X ? Noooo. Every platform has maximize button. OS X ? Nooo, they got Best Fit, which is kinda stupid. Or fullscreen, which is even more stupid (due limitation to 1 display, while all other displays are just showing a gray background).

    I really don't mind OS X, i can live with it faults for the use cases i need it - but to bring it up as an alternative to Windows because you don't like changes which happened between 7 and 8 is simply stupid. While if you dislike the only change people moan about between 7 and 8 is fixable by alternative Start buttons, the "differences" of OS X compared to the usual behavior on all other platforms are mostly not fixable.
     
  8. Void

    Void [H]ard to Tame

    Messages:
    2,282
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2006
    How does two negatives equal a positive on XP users?

    I don't put much faith in the Steam hardware survey as there are still a lot of people who just flat out refuse to upgrade beyond XP for various reasons. Hell there are still quite a few users here on [H] that are still running XP by choice, if it isn't broke then don't fix it. Most people only upgrade an OS when they either buy a new PC or find a game/program they really want to play/use but it won't run on an older OS.

    Plus Windows 8 seems to be the only MS OS that's actually gaining users, according to the Steam survey +2.60
     
  9. dr.stevil

    dr.stevil [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,094
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    8 and vista :p
     
  10. wonderfield

    wonderfield [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,396
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    No, Safari is inconsistent with everything else (assumably — I haven't used every browser available on every platform). Those keys most likely function as desired in every other application you use. OS X and Safari are not the same things.

    Of course it's stupid. I'm not debating that.

    How does one fix vertical mouse wheel scrolling resulting in horizontal scrolling in the Modern UI?
     
  11. Void

    Void [H]ard to Tame

    Messages:
    2,282
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2006
    Nope, even Vista lost users once you figure in the total for 32 and 64bit ;).
     
  12. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    Actually, it is OEM's fault. Sure, i live in a small EU country with 5 million citizens, but there is only this in stock in the whole country (and most shops have shared stocks with Czech Republic - 10 million citizens and Poland - 38 million citizens) in category of portable devices (we can safely ignore the all-in-ones, most people will be interested in *books and tablets) :
    1. following high definition (1080p) touch enabled devices (ultrabooks, notebooks, convertibles, tablets) :
      • Acer Aspire S7 13.3" Core i5 128GB SSD
      • Sony VAIO Duo 11
    2. following touch enabled tablets :
      • Samsung Ativ Smart PC XE500T1C-A01CZ 64GB
    3. 10 1366x768 touch enabled ultrabooks and notebooks
    4. Many non-touch enabled ultrabooks and notebooks

    If we ignore the irrelevant devices in categories 4, we got only two 1080p and eleven 768p portable devices on the market. And they say it's not their fault ? Where is Dell ? Where is HP ? Where is Lenovo ? Where is Toshiba ? Where is ASUS ? Hell, where is Acer with their Iconia W700 ?

    But maybe it's my fault expecting that computer manufacturers actually want to sell their devices in the biggest shopping event called Christmas. They will release their devices sometime in February, month or two before Haswell comes out, and then they will complain that they have tons of Ivy Bridge devices in stocks, so they will ask Intel again to delay the launch of the mobile Haswell chips as they did it with Ivy Bridge.
     
  13. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Actually, if you read through the entire article, they did admit that the problem rests with the entire chain, from Microsoft to OEMs to retail stores. There's no one single source of blame I believe.
     
  14. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    Nope. That is a system wide thing. Chrome does the same, text editing in Eclipse or working with some things in Terminal is affected as well. Believe me, i was using my former MacBook Pro (replaced by Mac Mini) for some development since July 2011 and those keys still make me insane when i connect a keyboard with them and my reflexes while browsing or editing make me press those keys, just to end me raging about the resulting effect. FYI There is keyremap4macbook software, but even with it i weren't able to set everything up in the way it should work (opposed to what Apple engineers think it should work).

    But i guess i press those keys wrong.

    Unfortunately, that is a suboptimal solution for a design decision. MS decided to have a horizontal interface, but only very small part of their user base has a mouses with horizontal scrolling (and even if they do, horizontal scrolling on mouse is still awkward).

    You should forget that it is a vertical scrolling and call it just scrolling. :D
     
  15. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    This.

    There is no vertical scrolling in the Start Screen. This is probably a design compromise to make it easier for tablet users to use, which are used to sideways scrolling from Android and iOS.
     
  16. wonderfield

    wonderfield [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,396
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    As of what version?

    It doesn't bother me overly, but it's worth pointing out that Windows 8 sports as many internal and 'external' inconsistencies as any other OS, if not more so. Perhaps that was the point you were trying to make originally, though.

    I believe you've misunderstood the point.
     
  17. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    I see your point now, and I do agree some of the inconsistencies are a bit annoying.
     
  18. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    10.7 for sure, and i think it did it in 10.8 too. Here, you have it from someone else as well :
    http://soodev.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/mac-os-x-remapping-home-and-end-keys/
    Sort of yes, that was my point. Swap a Windows 8 which can be nearly completely customized back to W7 L&F if someone really needs to (not me) for a OS X which has even bigger differences in small things, which will drive the user insane much sooner than that "annoying" (as some people describe it) Metro.
     
  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Indeed this is the reality overall. Windows 8 is a big change with lots of parts and not all of the parts are in place and that's not really a surprise because people have been saying for a long time now it was going to take time to get the channels built up for touch hardware.
     
  20. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,039
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    So you agree it's inconsistent as can be? Metro apps and legacy apps do not work the same and the user gets confused. Charms bar is also not the only place where search starts, all you need to do is press win key and start to type at any time.

    The Win8 UI "Change for the sake of change" approach is a disaster. It's hiding or missing several functionalities and requires yet again more clicks per task than before. It's been a constant downfall since XP.
     
  21. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,039
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Owners of 27"-30" IPS screens are awfully happy to 'get' to use an interface that's bastardized from a 7" tablet :D Picture in your mind Ren&Stimpy "JOY!" :D
     
  22. Dogs

    Dogs [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,141
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    That doesn't search within the context of the app. If I open up the Finance app right now, and hit Windows key and type MSFT, it searches my installed apps and returns "No apps match your search". But if I open the charms bar search within Finance, it returns the Microsoft stock ticker.
     
  23. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    It's actually easier than that. If you haven't selected anything where you can type inside the Metro app, and you simply start typing, it automatically brings up the Charms search in the context of the Metro app.

    Again, when did I ever say that Windows 8 was perfect?
     
  24. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Another thing you can do if this hasn't come up is pin and arrange the default order of the apps for search. Press and hold or right click on an app in Search in the Charms Bar and you will get the options to "Pin" or "Hide". Once an app is pinned it will go to the top and become the last pinned app at which point you can then drag the app into whatever position you want.

    If you "Hide" an app you have to go to "Change PC Settings" and in the "Search" section find that app and then toggle the app back on.
     
  25. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,656
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2008
    It is not "Change for the sake of change", but "Change because market is shifting". But i guess you are the kind of person who in 5 years would complain why Microsoft has so crappy touch interface and why we don't have Windows tablets.
     
  26. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,834
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Again and again, the question is whether the interface is efficient, not what other devices it runs on. Fact is I can 2-click launch any of 60 apps (on a 1680x1050 screen) without scrolling, opening folders, etc. As far as I can tell, the UI is better on the desktop and that's why it runs well on a tablet (though that may not be the order it was made in), because different computational device interactions have a lot more in common than people like you imagine.

    It can be seen as confusing, if you are prejudiced and have a kneejerk reaction, or as giving more choices, so you have the right tool for the job. So you agree you are in the former group?

    Problem is, it's not change for the sake of change, as others have said. It's an addition so users can use safer, simpler apps, that don't require you to be intimate with a computer or the program, to get results/fun without potential traditional problems of such things *if* you choose.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  27. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,039
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    You mean you can have a huge mess of 60 icons where you have to hunt and peck to find anything. You could as well fill the traditional desktop with large icons and have the same end result.

    When the familiar way stops working the way it used to, it's confusing. Especially when the new way is no better.

    Problem is you're still confusing the UI with 'safe apps' and BS like that. The user interface has nothing to do with the locked down apps.
     
  28. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,834
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    It's better than the mess that is the start menu, that you have to scroll, navigate folders through, and probably have apps launched from multiple places like the desktop, the taskbar, the pinned items, the start menu apps at the top, and in folders. The desktop is better as a temporary work space that is usually clear.


    Except Win 8 is better, efficiency wise, than the start menu.


    You're the one who's confused, and seeing only a subset of the whole. Apps that work well on tablets and desktops, make for easier to make and maintain apps for developers. Apps can use sandboxing on the desktop, but they are unlikely to do so on their own, so making a class of apps that run on tablets and desktops, and are always sandboxed, makes it safer and more stable for users who use them. Any other confusion is because you give too little information while tripping over yourself to use the latest pop reference to knock Windows 8.
     
  29. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,955
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Good grief. The BS is DEEP in this thread. We need some shovels in here.
     
  30. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,532
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Win 8 is better, more efficient, in your opinion but not everyones.
     
  31. MrCrispy

    MrCrispy 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,944
    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Metro/ModernUI was designed for tablets and that is the lowest common denominator. I don't see how anyone can deny that. Thus while the new Start screen may have some neat features, Metro in general (things like fullscreen apps, tons of wasted space) is a very very poor fit on the desktop.

    On top of this MS then chose to add a number of limitations like not allowing resizing of the side dock mode, multiple monitors etc.

    The end result - Metro apps on a pc are basically useless. It hurts productivity. Running something like Weather, the Amazon/Newegg apps, builtin Photos etc on a 24" monitor is a joke.
     
  32. Dogs

    Dogs [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,141
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    ....Which is why it's a good thing you're not forced to work from the Modern UI environment. The traditional desktop is included in Windows 8 for a reason.
     
  33. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,423
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2003
    So what your saying if no one uses metro on a desktop then what is the point of having it in there ? Its not going to make users any more friendly towards metro apps there fore it fails to actually draw the attention Microsoft wants. So its more of a encumbrance then anything else.
     
  34. dr.stevil

    dr.stevil [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,094
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    And that's my main gripe too. Why would anyone, outside the RT or extremely casual users, ever venture outside the desktop? Having two completely seperate working environments that don't/aren't allowed to talk to each other, especially when MS wants metro to catch on, is a really dumb move. It's only going to make the experience cumbersome for many people and in turn, hate their new UI
     
  35. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Live tile functionality and e-mail alerts are extremely useful for me on a desktop.

    And why do you keep ignoring the fact that Windows 8 is designed to work on more than just a desktop, and that Microsoft wants a sense of continuity across all their devices?
     
  36. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,532
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    IMO, its more about choice. Just like in a car/truck, you have alot of options and some people want options.
     
  37. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,096
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    And you have the choice with third-party add-ons, just like a car/truck.
     
  38. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,532
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Exactly! Though its nice that they do it from the factory so everything works. :D
     
  39. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,834
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    It's not everyone's opinion that the earth is round-ish either, I tend not to consider certain contrarian groups of people every time I write something, it would get tedious with little benefit.
     
  40. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,423
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2003

    Well woopdee doo for the whole 10 users that use MS phones/Tablets.
    I am exadurating the numbers but MS forcing us to use UI on a failed mobile system is just a recipe to disaster on a desktop.

    All microsoft will accomplish with this "unified view" or what I like to call lock in it will just push users away from MS.

    Again all they needed to do is put in a fucking on/off switch.

    MS is once of the most hated companies on earth, at least the 1000 users seem to convey to me.

    Just ask your self a question, do you like being told on what you can and can't do?