Windows 8 low-spec laptop installation issue

[Unknown-One]

I've been trying out Windows 8 on my HP Touchsmart TM2 (convertible laptop/tablet) and loving it, but I kinda want to see how it handles itself on a very low-spec system.

Pulled out one of my oldest laptops and attempted to give it a go. Machine is an HP Pavilion ze4805us. Specs:
Athlon XP-M 2800+ (2.13 GHz)
768 MB DDR RAM
40GB 5400 RPM drive
8X DVD-ROM / CD-RW drive
Broadcom Wireless B/G
14.1" 1024x768 screen
ATi Mobility Radeon 320M
Unknown (and unstable) realtek audio.

The machine currently has Windows 7 Home Premium (32bit) installed, which runs shockingly well given how old this thing is. It was also a pretty big pain tracking down serviceable drivers (a lot of them are from 2003-ish and were never updated), but again, it did end up working.

When I pop in a Windows 8 (32bit) installation DVD, it just sits at the beta fish boot screen forever. I let it sit there for 2 hours while I was out of the house and came back to find it still frozen. Are there any quick fixes or command line switches I can throw to help this along?

 

[maboblivion]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/download
When u click download theres a 5mb setup and u can run it to see what's not compatible and will give u trouble.Then cancel the install once u get your info unless u want it to download again.

I'm betting it being some kind of HP issue.

 

[heatlesssun]

Is that 320M DX9 capable? I need to install Windows 8 on my TM2 next.

 

[GushpinBob]

Is that 320M DX9 capable? I need to install Windows 8 on my TM2 next.

Pretty sure it's DX7-level hardware.

Edit: Yup. I'd doubt that the MS basic video driver would even attempt to run on hardware that old.

 

[heatlesssun]

Pretty sure it's DX7-level hardware.

Edit: Yup. I'd doubt that the MS basic video driver would even attempt to run on hardware that old.

Yeah, if it's not DX9 then it's not Windows 8 compliant and wouldn't be much fun anyway.

 

[Unknown-One]

Uh, what are you guys talking about?

Windows 7 and Windows 8 recommend a DX9 GPU, but neither one requires it. Windows 7 will drop down to Aero Basic, and Windows 8 will either drop to Aero Basic or run Aero using software rendering.

Like I said, Windows 7 is already running happily on the machine with the old Windows XP video driver and Aero disabled. Windows 8 can do one better since it includes a basic display driver that can run Aero Glass in software. The video card isn't the issue here, and in reality, is actually less-relevant to Windows 8 than it was to Windows 7.

Edit: Also, the fact that I can see the full-resolution (1024x768) Windows 8 animated boot graphic means that it has already successfully loaded and is currently using the generic Microsoft VGA driver for output. Something else is stalling the boot process...

 

[maboblivion]

Are you trying to install it on the main partition ?

This might help you , i've tried to make more than 1 partition on my pavillion dv5 and even tho i got 90 gig free doesn't let me shrink and make a third one. (probably has to do with the recovery options)

It might not have access to the drive and stall there.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

Uh, what are you guys talking about?

Windows 7 and Windows 8 recommend a DX9 GPU, but neither one requires it. Windows 7 will drop down to Aero Basic, and Windows 8 will either drop to Aero Basic or run Aero using software rendering.

Like I said, Windows 7 is already running happily on the machine with the old Windows XP video driver and Aero disabled. Windows 8 can do one better since it includes a basic display driver that can run Aero Glass in software. The video card isn't the issue here, and in reality, is actually less-relevant to Windows 8 than it was to Windows 7.

Edit: Also, the fact that I can see the full-resolution (1024x768) Windows 8 animated boot graphic means that it has already successfully loaded and is currently using the generic Microsoft VGA driver for output. Something else is stalling the boot process...

The most astonishing part of this post is that windows XP drivers are working in Windows 7, given the vastly different driver model.

 

[closers]

Ir's not a graphics issue as mentioned above. I have seen W7 in basic mode working with S3 Savage chipsets. Most likely it's a partition or boot issue.

 

[bigdogchris]

The only times I've had issues with installation of Vista/7 hanging was because of USB issues.

This issue could be if the touch screen has an internal USB connection. Also the trackpad may be on the USB ... bus. Try unhooking the trackpad and try the installation again.

 

[heatlesssun]

Uh, what are you guys talking about?

This:

Whether you have a logo PC or you’ve built your own PC, the recommendations for the Consumer Preview include:

•1 GHz or faster processor
•1 GB RAM (32-bit) or 2 GB RAM (64-bit)
•16 GB available hard disk space (32-bit) or 20 GB (64-bit)
•DirectX 9 graphics device with WDDM 1.0 or higher driver

I didn't say that it wouldn't work, I said DX 9 is required for compliance. Windows 8 uses a LOT of GPU acceleration, I don't see running it on less than DX 9 as much fun.

And sorry, I didn't mean to say that not having DX 9 hardware was what was causing your problem, I just don't think it's really worth running Windows 8 on less than DX 9 though I could be wrong, I just try to at least hit the minimum specs on something with a very good reason.

 

[Tawnos]

The most astonishing part of this post is that windows XP drivers are working in Windows 7, given the vastly different driver model.

My guess is they're not, and he's just running standard VGA, which we replaced with Microsoft BDA in Win8. You now have Aero all the time, even on non-supported graphics cards. All that happens is the graphics are done in software by WARP.

 

[maboblivion]

So just installed it (64-bit version) on my hp laptop amd athlon x2 QL-60.... and yeah the first time it boots ...takes a crap long time before the fish load... then proceeds to ask u for the key before ....rebooting again xD .... and since i installed it in dual boot it asked me which i wanted to boot the 3x it booted up. At one point the screen stayed grey for 3min+ but it didn't crash!

Took more time than my sig to install but alot less time than other os would've i'm sure.
Like the setup had shown some hp stuff have no drivers for it. Presently speakers only output on the headphones... able to controle sound volume pause/play which is nice.

It sees my 4gb and taskmanager shows that it can use it fully. Ain't that nice!
Gonna go and play more with it

 

[El Tigre]

Windows 8? Is that 98 or 2008?

 

[maboblivion]

2012 nice try ;P

 

[GushpinBob]

My guess is they're not, and he's just running standard VGA, which we replaced with Microsoft BDA in Win8. You now have Aero all the time, even on non-supported graphics cards. All that happens is the graphics are done in software by WARP.

Windows 7 still supports drivers that are based on XDDM (with limitations) so I'm not surprised that he can get away with installing XP display drivers. Windows 8, OTOH, drops support for XDDM and requires drivers that are WDDM 1.0 based or higher. Graphics cards that don't have the provided drivers are assisted with Microsoft's basic display driver, which is augmented with software rendering techniques.

With a CPU that old, SW rendering is not going to be a pleasant experience.

 

[Unknown-One]

The most astonishing part of this post is that windows XP drivers are working in Windows 7, given the vastly different driver model.

As GushpinBob already stated, Windows 7 still supports XDDM display drivers (the display driver model used in Windows XP)

The old ATi drivers install and operate as expected (2D hardware acceleration, DX7 hardware acceleration, all screen modes detected, no Aero support)

Are you trying to install it on the main partition ?

This might help you , i've tried to make more than 1 partition on my pavillion dv5 and even tho i got 90 gig free doesn't let me shrink and make a third one. (probably has to do with the recovery options)

It might not have access to the drive and stall there.

As I said, the installation is hanging on the beta fish boot screen. It never makes it past that, so partitioning hasn't even entered into the equation yet.

The only times I've had issues with installation of Vista/7 hanging was because of USB issues.

This issue could be if the touch screen has an internal USB connection. Also the trackpad may be on the USB ... bus. Try unhooking the trackpad and try the installation again.

This laptop is old as dirt, it doesn't have a touchscreen

And I can't easily unhook the trackpad... that would involve dissembling the laptop.

I didn't say that it wouldn't work, I said DX 9 is required for compliance. Windows 8 uses a LOT of GPU acceleration, I don't see running it on less than DX 9 as much fun.

And sorry, I didn't mean to say that not having DX 9 hardware was what was causing your problem, I just don't think it's really worth running Windows 8 on less than DX 9 though I could be wrong, I just try to at least hit the minimum specs on something with a very good reason.

Like I said in my first post, the entire point of this exercise is to see how Windows 8 performs on highly anemic hardware. Windows 7 already performs admirably on this laptop, and I wanted to see what Windows 8 does for it (since Windows 8 is supposed to be lighter on its feet). The lack of DX9 hardware is completely inconsequential in this instance.

I know how it performs on decent systems already, it's running great on my TouchSmart TM2.

My guess is they're not, and he's just running standard VGA, which we replaced with Microsoft BDA in Win8. You now have Aero all the time, even on non-supported graphics cards. All that happens is the graphics are done in software by WARP.

Nope, like i already told you, I'm using the Windows XP driver. Windows 7 is currently still installed on the laptop and is using the ATi video driver provided by HP for this laptop's GPU. Here's a screenshot:

Windows 7 still supports drivers that are based on XDDM (with limitations) so I'm not surprised that he can get away with installing XP display drivers. Windows 8, OTOH, drops support for XDDM and requires drivers that are WDDM 1.0 based or higher. Graphics cards that don't have the provided drivers are assisted with Microsoft's basic display driver, which is augmented with software rendering techniques.

With a CPU that old, SW rendering is not going to be a pleasant experience.

Yup, I know Windows 8 drops XDDM support, so it'll have to use the default software-accelerated driver that comes with Windows 8.

If it performs slowly I'll switch from Aero to Aero Basic...but before I can do that, I need to actually get the OS to install. lol


*deep breath* So, with that out of the way, here's were it currently stands:
1. Insert Windows 8 DVD
2. Boot from DVD-ROM drive.
3. Beta fish appears in the middle of the screen.
4. That it... the loading dots don't even appear under the fish and it stops accessing the DVD-ROM drive

 

[Tawnos]

Windows 7 still supports drivers that are based on XDDM (with limitations) so I'm not surprised that he can get away with installing XP display drivers. Windows 8, OTOH, drops support for XDDM and requires drivers that are WDDM 1.0 based or higher. Graphics cards that don't have the provided drivers are assisted with Microsoft's basic display driver, which is augmented with software rendering techniques.

With a CPU that old, SW rendering is not going to be a pleasant experience.

No, windows 7 does not "support" such drivers. We explicitly blocked some known bad drivers, and any attempt to install such drivers are at your own risk. Often, you'll find you get better performance from Standard VGA on such old hardware.

On Win8 we did cull the remaining XDDM code, and as I mentioned, BDA is powered by WARP. You never know how it will run till you try it, though I'd recommend against it

 

[Tawnos]

As GushpinBob already stated, Windows 7 still supports XDDM display drivers (the display driver model used in Windows XP)

And as I said, it doesn't "support it", but you can force them on if you disable signing enforcement and a couple other things.

If it performs slowly I'll switch from Aero to Aero Basic...but before I can do that, I need to actually get the OS to install. lol


*deep breath* So, with that out of the way, here's were it currently stands:
1. Insert Windows 8 DVD
2. Boot from DVD-ROM drive.
3. Beta fish appears in the middle of the screen.
4. That it... the loading dots don't even appear under the fish and it stops accessing the DVD-ROM drive

No "Aero basic" - DWM/desktop composition is always on. As for your problem, on an unsupported system like that... Try shift f8 during boot to see if you can get advanced boot options. This will be gone and replaced with a different mechanism later, but you may be able to try enabling a different boot mode.

 

[Unknown-One]

And as I said, it doesn't "support it", but you can force them on if you disable signing enforcement and a couple other things.

Now what are you on about? Signed driver enforcement IS NOT disabled on the 32bit Windows 7 installation where I took that screenshot. That involves some bootloader hacks to fully disable, which I really don't like doing.

I installed the XP driver as I normally would. Windows 7 supports it just fine.

No "Aero basic" - DWM/desktop composition is always on.

Cool, that's fine too. Just want to see it work...

As for your problem, on an unsupported system like that... Try shift f8 during boot to see if you can get advanced boot options. This will be gone and replaced with a different mechanism later, but you may be able to try enabling a different boot mode.

Tried Shift F8, just causes the PC speaker inside the laptop to beep loudly.

 

[Tawnos]

Now what are you on about? Signed driver enforcement IS NOT disabled on the 32bit Windows 7 installation where I took that screenshot. That involves some bootloader hacks to fully disable, which I really don't like doing.

I installed the XP driver as I normally would. Windows 7 supports it just fine.

Again, merely running does not mean it's supported. Additionally, you did disable driver signing enforcement on that driver, it was the popup that says "windows can't verify this driver" or similar. On 64 bit you can't even do that. The drivers are not supported. What I'm on about is that I'm on the windows display driver team, and people assume that just because you can force a driver to install mean it's supported. It's not, the scenario is unsupported and may have unintended consequences.

Cool, that's fine too. Just want to see it work...


Tried Shift F8, just causes the PC speaker inside the laptop to beep loudly.

Pressed repeatedly during boot or held down? If the latter, that may be the "stuck key" notification.

Alternatively, if you boot to a win7 recovery environment, you can install win8 from there.

 

[Tawnos]

Also, what BIOS are you using? Check for updates

 

[Unknown-One]

Again, merely running does not mean it's supported. Additionally, you did disable driver signing enforcement on that driver, it was the popup that says "windows can't verify this driver" or similar. On 64 bit you can't even do that.

Well, actually, you can disable it on 64bit, it's just not nearly as easy (requires a bootloader hack).

Like I said, I don't like doing it and I don't recommend it, but it can be done.

The drivers are not supported. What I'm on about is that I'm on the windows display driver team, and people assume that just because you can force a driver to install mean it's supported. It's not, the scenario is unsupported and may have unintended consequences.

Are you saying unsigned XDDM drivers aren't supported, or that ALL XDDM drivers aren't supported?

If the former, then I can sort of see where you're coming from. If the latter, then you've lost me (there's obviously some level of support for them, meaning they're "supported" in some fashion).

Pressed repeatedly during boot or held down? If the latter, that may be the "stuck key" notification.

Alternatively, if you boot to a win7 recovery environment, you can install win8 from there.

I'll give that a shot, thanks.

Also, what BIOS are you using? Check for updates

Good call there, just checked and they released an updated BIOS for this notebook in 2005. I'll have to flash that and see if it helps.

Edit: It just fixes an issue with the HP Battery Optimizer. Not sure it'll help, but I'll flash it anyway.

 

[MrGuvernment]

claim was i saw that windows 8 would run about %33 faster on netbooks and lower end devices...

 

[Tawnos]

Well, actually, you can disable it on 64bit, it's just not nearly as easy (requires a bootloader hack).

Doesn't require a bootloader hack, just have to turn on a particular mode using bcdedit. Or you can hook up a kernel debugger.

Are you saying unsigned XDDM drivers aren't supported, or that ALL XDDM drivers aren't supported?

If the former, then I can sort of see where you're coming from. If the latter, then you've lost me (there's obviously some level of support for them, meaning they're "supported" in some fashion).

ALL XDDM drivers are unsupported. In fact, there was only one driver signed for vista, which was the intel 915, and it had some bad issues trying to run aero on win7, so is one of those "blocked" drivers.

Some parts "work" (and I use that term very loosely), but there is no guaranteed support. Installing some XDDM drivers will result in your system going into a state of permanent bluescreen reboots (until you go to safe mode and remove them). They are not supported, and we made no effort to verify any form of functionality, or that you wouldn't have "bad stuff" happen with the drivers executing down old code paths that weren't cut until Win8.

 

[Unknown-One]

Tried Shift F8 a bunch of times, I can't seem to get it to dump me to the advanced boot options screen no matter when I hit it.

You mentioned Windows 8's installation could be started from Windows 7's preinstallation environment. How would one go about that?

Doesn't require a bootloader hack, just have to turn on a particular mode using bcdedit.

Completely wrong. Setting the mode in bcdedit worked back on Windows Vista, but not on Windows 7 64bit. You can pop open bcdedit on Windows 7 64bit and play with the "DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" switch, but it does nothing.

On Windows 7 64bit, you have to press F8 every single time you boot, and select "Disable Driver Signature Enforcement" from the advanced boot options menu. You have to do this every single time you start the system.

Like I said, the only way to permanently disable driver signature enforcement on Windows 7 64bit is by using bootloader hack. They generally involve a "macro-at-boot" approach that monkeys with the advanced boot options automatically every time the system starts.

ALL XDDM drivers are unsupported. In fact, there was only one driver signed for vista, which was the intel 915, and it had some bad issues trying to run aero on win7, so is one of those "blocked" drivers.

Yeah, you've lost me... XDDM drivers work, so the OS obviously provides the fundamental support system needed for them to function.

And you're way off-base with the intel 915 information. That GPU caused crashing because it was missing hardware features required for Aero and WDDM certification. The missing hardware scheduler [1] [2] on that GPU is the reason for its issues with Aero and its lack of final WDDM drivers, not some supposed "signed XDDM driver not working right" situation.

I've yanked the Intel 915 WDDM driver out of a late beta build of Windows Vista before, the one that allowed (crashy) aero support. It's pretty obviously a WDDM driver (not XDDM), but it's either different enough that it wont work on the final version of Vista, or (as you said) the pre-release WDDM driver was blacklisted somewhere within the system.

Some parts "work" (and I use that term very loosely), but there is no guaranteed support. Installing some XDDM drivers will result in your system going into a state of permanent bluescreen reboots (until you go to safe mode and remove them). They are not supported, and we made no effort to verify any form of functionality, or that you wouldn't have "bad stuff" happen with the drivers executing down old code paths that weren't cut until Win8.

The driver framework is still there, windows allows them to be installed, and (if they're not written poorly) they function as expected. Seems Windows supports them just fine (or as well as it was meant to), even if Microsoft considers it an "at your own risk" scenario.

 

[Tawnos]

Tried Shift F8 a bunch of times, I can't seem to get it to dump me to the advanced boot options screen no matter when I hit it.

You mentioned Windows 8's installation could be started from Windows 7's preinstallation environment. How would one go about that?

Run setup.exe from a command prompt.

Completely wrong. Setting the mode in bcdedit worked back on Windows Vista, but not on Windows 7 64bit. You can pop open bcdedit on Windows 7 64bit and play with the "DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" switch, but it does nothing.

You set test signing enabled (via bcdedit), then use test signing via the WDK. You seem to not believe that I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, you've lost me... XDDM drivers work, so the OS obviously provides the fundamental support system needed for them to function.

Again, something that works is not necessarily something that is supported. E.g. in the developer preview, setting "RPEnabled" to "0" in the registry worked to disable metro, but it was not supported. Any issues that were found in that mode would be met with a "that scenario is not supported" message.

And you're way off-base with the intel 915 information. That GPU caused crashing because it was missing hardware features required for Aero and WDDM certification. The missing hardware scheduler [1] [2] on that GPU is the reason for its issues with Aero and its lack of final WDDM drivers, not some supposed "signed XDDM driver not working right" situation.

You're not following. The 915 was the only XDDM signed (logo - the whole "vista capable" thing) driver that was allowed on Vista. However, that signed driver had really bad issues in windows 7. I believe one of the later (unsigned) win xp drivers worked, but only in 32 bit. The signed one had to be specifically blocked (or we may have made some other changes to prevent crashes - the point is that we had to work around the fact it was an XDDM "signed" driver that had issues).

I've yanked the Intel 915 WDDM driver out of a late beta build of Windows Vista before, the one that allowed (crashy) aero support. It's pretty obviously a WDDM driver (not XDDM), but it's either different enough that it wont work on the final version of Vista, or (as you said) the pre-release WDDM driver was blacklisted somewhere within the system.

No, it's an XDDM driver. Don't you even read your own links? From the link you put above:
"The fact that "it worked during the beta!" was due to the fact that Microsoft was allowing XPDM drivers to run the fancy stuff - the hard requirement for a WDDM driver wasn't put in place until later builds of Vista. There is no magical WDDM driver that Intel released during the beta, and subsequently pulled out of existence (someone would have found and hacked a version of that by now if that were the case). There is and only ever was the XPDM driver that exists today."

The driver framework is still there, windows allows them to be installed, and (if they're not written poorly) they function as expected. Seems Windows supports them just fine (or as well as it was meant to), even if Microsoft considers it an "at your own risk" scenario.

Windows 32 bit allows it to be installed if you ignore the "this isn't a signed driver" message. As I've stated many times now, they're not supported. They work incidentally, not intentionally, and are considered "deprecated" in Vista and Win7.

 

[Unknown-One]

Run setup.exe from a command prompt.

I'll give that a go in a second, hang on

You set test signing enabled (via bcdedit), then use test signing via the WDK. You seem to not believe that I know what I'm talking about.

And what I said still holds true even if you do that. Windows 7 64bit will not obey the "DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" switch when you reboot the system, and will instead boot normally. You have to manually select "Disable Driver Signature Enforcement" during bootup every single time (unless you use a hack to permanently take care of it for you).

Again, something that works is not necessarily something that is supported. E.g. in the developer preview, setting "RPEnabled" to "0" in the registry worked to disable metro, but it was not supported. Any issues that were found in that mode would be met with a "that scenario is not supported" message.

Yeah, I'm still not following... but I think I know what's derailing things here...

In your example, changing that registry setting to 0 disabled mentro, so that build of Windows supported disabling Metro via that registry key (Microsoft didn't support any consequences of making said change but Windows did support making said change).

There are multiple senses of the word "support" at play here, sorry if that distinction isn't clear...

 

[Tawnos]

I'll give that a go in a second, hang on


And what I said still holds true even if you do that. Windows 7 64bit will not obey the "DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" switch when you reboot the system, and will instead boot normally. You have to manually select "Disable Driver Signature Enforcement" during bootup every single time (unless you use a hack to permanently take care of it for you).

Note that I never mentioned that switch. I just said there was a way to use bcdedit so you didn't have to disable driver signing enforcement. When I get driver drops from the various IHVs, I just sign them myself and install them, or install them on a machine that has a kernel debugger attached (the usual case). I think you assumed I was talking about that switch, when I wasn't.

Yeah, I'm still not following... but I think I know what's derailing things here...

In your example, changing that registry setting to 0 disabled mentro, so that build of Windows supported disabling Metro via that registry key (Microsoft didn't support any consequences of making said change but Windows did support making said change).

There are multiple senses of the word "support" at play here, sorry if that distinction isn't clear...

That's why I put "supports" and "works" in quotes, as I wanted to differentiate between the two cases. Something that is supported works and will get help when it isn't working right. Something that merely works will get a "sorry, that's not a supported scenario" response if it's tried and fails. If you tried to install an XDDM driver and it caused a bugcheck due to a bug in the OS down an XDDM code path, we likely wouldn't even bother looking at it. The answer would be "XDDM? Not supported."