Windows 8 helping me sell sell sell.

If MS chooses not to change this before release, I predict two things.

1. Windows 8 will be the Edsel of the computer industry.

2. The MS fanbois in this thread will be in deep denial as they grope for a truth they will not see.

Some people will champion anything MS releases be it good or bad, Windows 8 is so clearly bad I'm amazed anybody likes it.
 
twwabw said:
I'll chime in. IMO, it is pathetic. I support business clients, period. No home users that only web surf and check Hotmail. Business clients that use AutoCAD, Adobe CS, other business apps. This juvenile Metro interface brings Zero to the party. Nada. They use desktops, not tablets. They won't be running Bentley or Revit on a tablet any time soon.

I have no issues if MS wants to incorporate some cutesy new intferface, as an option. Or, conversely as long as theere is the option for the same interface they always had. You can't say "but it has the same old desktop"- no it isn't- no start button, no lists of programs, none of the things people are used to seeing. This costs productivity, and in business- that = money. This is not an intuitive interface. I installed MS Office on it, and have had about 6 people log onto it, and I told them "try to find MS Word. Not one single person could. And the "Programs" menu that displays every single executable on the computer is a joke.

To me, it's case of MS deciding what we're going to have, whether we like it or not. Bad strategy. This may be the greatest interface in the planet for touch screens, but business, for the forseeable future, does not use touchscreens for work. Go ahead and offer this mode, but at least give the option for a classic Windows 7 start menu for those who want it- aka: the customer. The one paying you.

I always thought it was great how WordPerfect has always maintained the old 5.1 mode in their new releases. For those who don't understand why, you've never been to an attorney's office where the secetary has been there for 20 years, still has her old WordPerfect template on the keyboard. She can type faster than you can think, and forcing her to learn a new interface when she doesn't want to brings nothing to the party. All the mfg. should be concerned with is they bought and paid for a new license on their new PC- if they want it to look like it did "way back when"- fine. Who cares? The customer is happy, and the mfg. is happy- they sold a new license. Win win.

New is not a bad thing. But cramming new down someone's throat is a bad things. I hope MS re-thinks this strategy before release and offers the old start menu as an option. 3rd party vendors already have, so it's not like it can't be done.
Click to expand...

This, this, this!

Like I also keep saying, there is ZERO incentive for long time desktop users to change their ingrained behaviors because Metro is not bringing any noticeably faster or more efficient ways of doing things on the desktop.
As it is now, it's the user equivalent of sitting in a new car where the speedometer and RPM gauges are switched, reverse gear is in the lower right instead of the upper left, and the up/down arrows on the seat actually move it forward and back. Yes, it still works, but the change is unsettling and more than a bit annoying.
 
Simple.

New is not always equivalent to good, or better for that matter.

Windows7 is good.

Windows 8 would be fun for home, but honestly brings nothing to the table for my business or any other that I can think of, only extra time and energy.

Every business I interact with currently is using Windows XP Professional.
 
Deadjasper said:
2. The MS fanbois in this thread will be in deep denial as they grope for a truth they will not see.
Click to expand...
I'm with you. I don't have a problem with someone liking a new feature. What I have a problem with is those here that beat around the bush in saying that we're wrong for not liking it. It's almost condescending that those people think we're too stupid to see how great Metro is for ourselves, and how it will revolutionize PC and tablet market. A market that happens to be doing great as it stands right now. There is no doubt that tablet type devices are a growing market, but there's still close to a Billion sit-down-at-a-desk PC's in the world running Windows, and I don't want a stripped down tablet UI when I sit down. If I want that, I'll use a fucking tablet.

I think by replacing the Start Menu with the Metro Start Screen, rather than adding it on as a separate interface, shows that Microsoft is trying way to hard, to push it's way into a market that they want a piece in. Microsoft has been known to throw Billions of dollars at something to get a share, and completely throwing out everything we've known about Windows is a gamble they are willing to take. I think they are going to end up folding. If Microsoft truly felt that this was the way to go, they would remove all references to the Start Menu in Windows 8 and replace them with symbolic links, like they did with documents and settings, etc., but they haven't, because I think they have a plan B to put the Start Menu back in.
 
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maw said:
This pretty much says it all.
How real people will use Windows 8
Click to expand...
All that shows is he can't find the start button. How would he have liked the UI if someone had pointed out a hot corner or pressed the big windows flag key on the keyboard so he could actually try things out?

Edit: I'm visiting my 86 year old great-grandfather in a few days, and I'll take my laptop running Windows 8 with me. He's never used a computer before, the closest he's come is an electronic typewriter. Lets see what he thinks :D
 
Unknown-One said:
All that shows is he can't find the start button. How would he have liked the UI if someone had pointed out a hot corner or pressed the big windows flag key on the keyboard so he could actually try things out?

Edit: I'm visiting my 86 year old great-grandfather in a few days, and I'll take my laptop running Windows 8 with me. He's never used a computer before, the closest he's come is an electronic typewriter. Lets see what he thinks :D
Click to expand...
Is the market for first time computer users really that compelling? Especially when compared to your average business user, who has been using windows ( like it or not ) for at least 5 years?

As we move forward, new computer users will be fewer and fewer. I would expect that they are already such a small percentage of the overall market as to be insignificant, and certainly not worth pursuing.
 
Unknown-One said:
All that shows is he can't find the start button. How would he have liked the UI if someone had pointed out a hot corner or pressed the big windows flag key on the keyboard so he could actually try things out?
Click to expand...

Not everyone who buys a new computer is going have someone to point out the hot corners or the Windows flag key. And even after they find it, it's not like everything else about the UI is going to suddenly fall into place for them either.
 
Unknown-One said:
Edit: I'm visiting my 86 year old great-grandfather in a few days, and I'll take my laptop running Windows 8 with me. He's never used a computer before, the closest he's come is an electronic typewriter. Lets see what he thinks :D
Click to expand...

Does he have a Live account to login with?:D

C'mon no prompting him now. Pretend he just bought it on a whim, take it out of the bag and go from there. Then see what happens.No helping him, just leave him be.

Thats a new user after all.
 
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Yeah, I found out pretty quickly that the hot corners don't work well AT ALL in a virtual machine. I had to put VMWare into "exclusive mode" to really make them work right.

maw said:
Not everyone who buys a new computer is going have someone to point out the hot corners or the Windows flag key.
Click to expand...
I'd expect most people who've used a Windows PC for ANY length of time to know that there's a Windows Flag key on the keyboard that opens the start menu...

And some things shouldn't need to be explained. If someone can't press a single key on the keyboard, what'll they do when you tell them to try using a mouse for the first time? Freeze up and be unable to proceed?

And what about when you get to the joys of double-clicking? do you let them single-click icons and wonder why nothing happens for ages? No, if the person is THAT new to computers, someone is probably going to help them...
 
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GORANKAR said:
You are missing my point. I think I will like the Metro UI for touch screen devices. I do not like it on a desk top PC. A desk top is NOT a tablet. I do not care if the tablet market is growing faster than the already saturated PC/laptop market. If you want to put out a desk top OS, it should prolly come with a desk top GUI. I mentioned in another post how some of my issues could be fixed, I will list a few of them and a few more.
Click to expand...

I think I've actually given your point about the desktop more than most but I also look at in the context of tablets and touch screens. Where many see tablets and desktops as different things I see them mostly as different form factors that can share much if software is designed with the differences in mind.


bigdogchris said:
Right now tablets, phones and desktops all have different OSes and we're getting along just fine. No one in my environment is clamoring that "I wish these were the same". It's nice using something different once in a while.

You forget that a lot of the reason people use gadgets (phone/tablet/etc) is that it is an escape from your work computer. It's new and fun. Once it's a work computer again it stops being fun and the novelty is going to wear off.

Think outside the box friend.
Click to expand...

I would imagine that a lot of work computers particularly laptops coming out with the launch of Windows 8 will have touch screens, that's pretty much something few have seen and used on a Windows computer before and there will be a lot of software to take advantage of that new input method.


GORANKAR said:
No forced full screen, if it can not be run in a window, it is broken.
Put buttons where you currently have hover and wait areas. derp
Allow for us to easily close metro apps without KB short cuts.
Safe mode, safe mode, safe mode. I know we do not use all that much, but an easy way to get into it without the hoops would be nice.
While it is easy enough to create a BS live account, I don't really care for the, "have to have a live account" feeling this OS leaves me with.
Oh, yeah, can I have a fricken start menu please.

They can make metro better for the PC, but I doubt they will.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying you don't have some good points here but windowed Metro apps add a good bit of complexity to a brand new technology that first and foremost MUST be stable and secure.
 
maw said:
Not everyone who buys a new computer is going have someone to point out the hot corners or the Windows flag key. And even after they find it, it's not like everything else about the UI is going to suddenly fall into place for them either.
Click to expand...
How do people figure out all of the random quirks of the iPad's UI? Pinch here, three-finger swipe there, press the square button here..... I fail to see how it's any more intuitive and yet people somehow have managed to figure out how to use theirs.
 
Arainach said:
How do people figure out all of the random quirks of the iPad's UI? Pinch here, three-finger swipe there, press the square button here..... I fail to see how it's any more intuitive and yet people somehow have managed to figure out how to use theirs.
Click to expand...

People love to tout around the term intuitive and when I think about it what really IS intuitive? Keeping the Start Button for instance isn't about intuition but convention since its been in Windows for almost two decades.
 
Arainach said:
How do people figure out all of the random quirks of the iPad's UI? Pinch here, three-finger swipe there, press the square button here..... I fail to see how it's any more intuitive and yet people somehow have managed to figure out how to use theirs.
Click to expand...
Pinching always has the same function, so that's no real complexity. Three-finger swiping is an advanced gesture and isn't necessary to navigate the OS. The Home button also has one function, and its function is pretty clearly indicated by its name.

The weird stuff is explained pretty clearly in a small guide included with each iPad. The iPhone comes with similar guide called "Finger Tips" which lays out everything you need to know about getting around the OS.

Assuming Windows 8 comes with some sort of tutorial video, it shouldn't be a big problem, but there is no such tutorial in the CP that I could find.
 
wonderfield said:
Assuming Windows 8 comes with some sort of tutorial video, it shouldn't be a big problem, but there is no such tutorial in the CP that I could find.
Click to expand...

Well this is just the CP. The UI may not change dramatically from the CP to RTM but it will no doubt change some so a tutorial is probably a bit premature.
 
I think RTM will be a lot different and probably will arrive 3-4 months later than planned*.

No idea why.......




* Unless MS has been working on parallel RTM versions as in Metro only and Metro switch off versions.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think I've actually given your point about the desktop more than most but I also look at in the context of tablets and touch screens. Where many see tablets and desktops as different things I see them mostly as different form factors that can share much if software is designed with the differences in mind.
Click to expand...

I see your point on it as well. One GUI to rule all devices is desirable from many different angles. From marketing to coding to education. It sounded like a great idea to me as well, until I started using it. Even after using it for an entire weekend and then some, I was not happy with it. I am pretty sure the problem is that the input methods are very different between a touch device, and a standard PC/laptop, and a GUI meant for one does not translate over the other all that well.

I am just going to agree to disagree with you for the most part. I defended Vista, and I will defend Win8 for the things it does well over Win7, but I am afraid I am going to remain a detractor of the Metro unless MS changes things.
 
Arainach said:
How do people figure out all of the random quirks of the iPad's UI? Pinch here, three-finger swipe there, press the square button here..... I fail to see how it's any more intuitive and yet people somehow have managed to figure out how to use theirs.
Click to expand...

After seeing it with family members, somebody has to tell them/show them the ipad's tricks.
 
Deadjasper said:
If MS chooses not to change this before release, I predict two things.

1. Windows 8 will be the Edsel of the computer industry.

2. The MS fanbois in this thread will be in deep denial as they grope for a truth they will not see.

Some people will champion anything MS releases be it good or bad, Windows 8 is so clearly bad I'm amazed anybody likes it.
Click to expand...

This is beta for all intensive purposes. As far as the UI goes, what you see is what you're getting.

As a power user who will be living in the desktop UI since everything I do is x86, I'll be using 8. I'm assuming there will be a fix for 8 clients and WHS 2011 to not be as fussy by then. I've seen enough improvements to my desktop stuff to warrant using 8. There is no 'deep denial as they grope for truth' as I like the performance improvements I've seen and the UI was only a headache for the first hour or so because of 20 years of muscle memory but I'm already used to it.
 
I just installed win 8 on a laptop a few hours ago and don't care for it at all. Hard to navigate, had to go to the desktop to fix the time zone. Couldn't find it anywhere else.
Browser is terrible and doesn't allow you to save an image.
I can see win 8 working great on a touch device but seems really clunky and difficult to use for a desktop setup.
 
XOR != OR said:
Is the market for first time computer users really that compelling? Especially when compared to your average business user, who has been using windows ( like it or not ) for at least 5 years?

As we move forward, new computer users will be fewer and fewer. I would expect that they are already such a small percentage of the overall market as to be insignificant, and certainly not worth pursuing.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that gentleman is a first time computer user? That is Chris Pirillo's dad. I'm sure the man has used a computer before.
 
bigdogchris said:
Are you saying that gentleman is a first time computer user? That is Chris Pirillo's dad. I'm sure the man has used a computer before.
Click to expand...
I had assumed that was the point of the post, but I may have been in error. Of course, I don't really know who Chris Pirillo is aside from the wikipedia entry, so ya.
 
This is definitely worse than the people complaining about the Windows XP -> Windows 7 start menu. Think of that change as parallel parking a compact to parallel parking a midsize sedan. Now, they're asking you to parallel park a semi.

What I'm concerned about is that this new interface assumes familiarity with smartphones. My parents (who will never own smartphones in their lives) would probably be very confused. Sure, the market for smartphones is definitely growing, but it's not a huge majority overall by any means.

That being said, so long as I can find everything via search-as-you-type (which I'm quite used to thanks to Vista/7) I won't complain too loudly.

Ideally, I'd put the Start button back in Desktop mode, but make clear this fallback is not going to be present in Windows 9, kind of like how the XP start menu was phased out.
 
Sovereign said:
That being said, so long as I can find everything via search-as-you-type (which I'm quite used to thanks to Vista/7) I won't complain too loudly.
Click to expand...

Yes it works the same as Vista/7, just start typing to search for stuff.

Sovereign said:
Ideally, I'd put the Start button back in Desktop mode, but make clear this fallback is not going to be present in Windows 9, kind of like how the XP start menu was phased out.
Click to expand...

Put the mouse fully (don't hover near, get it in there) into the bottom left and the Start popup displays. This works in any app and the desktop as do the charm menu on the right side as well as the 'alt tab' list of apps that I'm not using the right name for.
 
GORANKAR said:
I am just going to agree to disagree with you for the most part. I defended Vista, and I will defend Win8 for the things it does well over Win7, but I am afraid I am going to remain a detractor of the Metro unless MS changes things.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. It really doesn't matter what Microsoft changes in Windows or how, MILLIONS will hate it and any change will confused and be met with resistance. Even the notion that a desktop should default to a "proper" desktop UI would confuse because how would you know your shinny new Windows 8 machine though a desktop can run Metro apps?

Really the more I use the more I like it. There's some rough edges particularly with the hot corners on multi-monitor setups but I'm using my desktop programs including games as always everything I've always done is still there plus the ability to run a whole new breed of programs and it's a little faster than 7. Some people are equating Windows 8 with Vista and it's not exactly a good analogy in that Vista had a lot of technical problems out of the gate and for most Vista wasn't faster than XP.

The PC simply needs new life, new programs and new devices. In fact controversy and the life and death struggle of the PC versus the iPad in actually something Microsoft needs. Incremental improvements to the desktop would have been of little interest to average consumers.

Metro, right or wrong I believe was something Microsoft had to do. Not saying Metro perfect by any stretch but it's at least something to create energy, both good and bad is better than none at all.
 
They would probably sell more window 8 copies if they set up a way where desktop users can avoid metro. Or most of it.
 
I skimmed the thread so I didn't read all the posts, I can already tell that Metro UI is heated and there is a lot of back and forth going on in the thread.

In any case, my personal thought is that this is a great step forward for Microsoft. Microsoft by-in-large hasn't been a company based in any sort of innovation (I'm sure many will disagree, but anyway.) I explained this in another thread; Windows from a user perspective didn't really change at all from 95-Vista. Really I could include 7 as well, but at least 7 put in some new usability features such as dragging the windows to expand them or have them snap for side by side, but really not any significant changes.

Windows has essentially just become prettier (eg: Aero) without actually enhancing user experience. To be clear, I do realize that Microsoft has made significant changes to the way Windows operates in the background, an example of that was the change from 98 => 2K and moving away from FAT32 to NTFS as well as the move to the NT kernal, however users didn't have a dramatic change at all to the way the OS operated.

I can see already that some in this thread look at the concept of UI change as bad, wanting back the start menu, hating the fact that Metro UI appears to be a touch interface on a desktop machine... etc... But on the positive end, I see Microsoft doing something to retain market share by doing something they haven't done before, by changing and moving outside of the box.

The Start menu is flawed, there is nothing I hate more than trying to go through the menus to start/find a program and accidentally falling off the menu and being forced to start over again (because they close.) Program execution and most used apps was a chore in Windows. It got better in 7 in which they essentially adopted an OSX idea of having items pinned to the start-menu. I see the potential in Metro to having the most used items available immediately on the desktop in a clean sleek way that doesn't look like a bunch of scattered shortcuts (which is the way it would look now, if you decided to have shortcuts on the desktop.)

Metro has the potential to bridge the gap between desktop and mobile users, and although initially difficult for non-powerusers to understand will in the future be an easier operating system to learn (I believe) than having to learn the old style Windows way of doing things.

One of the things I would really like to see with the operating system however is a way to easily invoke applications a la Quicksilver/Google Launcher etc directly in Windows. Since there isn't a "start menu" anymore the Windows key could invoke the launcher, type in the first few characters of an application/document/file etc, have it be brought up via indexing, then with smart auto-complete press enter. The entire process should only take about 1/2 second. Generally I appreciate this method more than clicking on things with a mouse... because simply, it's faster, and I don't have to move my hands from the keys.

Additionally, I would like to see Windows overhaul shortcuts. Make them more numerous and more efficient. I still believe OSX is better in this area in every regard compared to every current Windows Operating system.
 
Maybe this Windows 8 pre-release is a marketing ploy to boost sales. Hopefully they will make a change before release!
 
The changes most people here are asking for aren't massive, I can think of the following "solutions" for my problems:

- push the start key for a windowed (!!!) search for programs, not a full screen waste of space, this windows resizes dynamically (and customizable) with the relevant search results, ala windows 7 start menu. (MAJOR)
- Hold Start for Metro. (which I would never do).
- Let me pin Metro Apps (in case there are nice ones someday) to the desktop, so I can view them on my primary workspace.
- Let me search for power options, and not need to go through a bunch of steps to get to the menu (annoying)
- Give visual clues regarding the hot corners, etc. Such as a coloration change or something when the mouse gets close. Let me customize the size of the corners.


Theres probably more things, but I was so turned off by windows 8 I didn't try it much further than all of that.
 
tankman1989 said:
Maybe this Windows 8 pre-release is a marketing ploy to boost sales. Hopefully they will make a change before release!
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If people were not bothering with upgrading anytime soon, but got scared to go to Win 8 and wanted 7 instead that is bad for MS. Might as well get as many people on board with Win 8 as that is going to be their new platform for the next 3 years, especially Metro lasting for a long time after.
 
Out-of-Place-Canadian,
That fourth point of yours:
- Let me search for power options, and not need to go through a bunch of steps to get to the menu (annoying)

Push winkey+x.
 
StatutoryApe said:
Push winkey+x.
Click to expand...

You know, expecting people to memorize a bunch of key combinations is not what I'd call "user-friendly".

Most people are not power users. Seriously, take some time to walk through your average office cube farm and ask people to do seemingly trivial things on their computer and you'll find a good percentage of them follow only a limited sequence of steps they learned years ago that allows them to get their work done (I do this, this and this to open Excel; the blue "e" takes me to the internet; this folder marked "documents" is where my work files are). Asking them to do anything beyond that, and they'll give you a blank stare. Seriously, reading the sticky-notes on their monitors is a real eye-opener.

Windows might have changed over the years, but certain things about the desktop stayed familiar enough that it wasn't too hard to get people back to their familiar habits (the blue "e" looks a little different now, but still retains familiarity). Metro, however, totally upturns everything they were used to, it's going to be a much steeper climb to get them to back to familiar patterns, if at all.

But what's so hard about telling someone to click the Desktop tile to get back to the desktop? Well, yeah, it's easy for you and me, but for the 63 year-old secretary who is afraid that touching anything unfamiliar is going to break the computer, this is going to traumatic.
 
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When people get past trying to make the desktop and desktop applications the center and can get past the legacy of Windows, Metro does make a lot of sense. When you use mouse of a pointing device, you navigate Metro from the corners. When you use touch as the pointer, Metro navigation is driven from the edges. The Start Button is still there, but it's now in the Metro UI which makes sense since Metro is the main UI now.

The main problem with Metro is that it is a UI that contains a more complex UI, the traditional Windows desktop. Obviously an attempt to merge to such disparate UIs is going to have it's issues.
 
maw said:
But what's so hard about telling someone to click the Desktop tile to get back to the desktop? Well, yeah, it's easy for you and me, but for the 63 year-old secretary who is afraid that touching anything unfamiliar is going to break the computer, this is going to traumatic.
Click to expand...
Made worse by the fact that it's change for change sake; that 63 year old secretary has learned what she needed to learn to do her job. It works for her, and fairly well at that. You won't get buy in from her about the change, thus her hesitation and fear are compounded by her annoyance at yet ANOTHER change she's forced to endure.

The problem is, of course, that just about every employee in a corporate setting is that 63 year old secretary. This is what MS has consistently failed to comprehend.
 
XOR != OR said:
Made worse by the fact that it's change for change sake; that 63 year old secretary has learned what she needed to learn to do her job. It works for her, and fairly well at that. You won't get buy in from her about the change, thus her hesitation and fear are compounded by her annoyance at yet ANOTHER change she's forced to endure.

The problem is, of course, that just about every employee in a corporate setting is that 63 year old secretary. This is what MS has consistently failed to comprehend.
Click to expand...

What planet have you been living on the last 17 years? The Windows UI has gone through very little change over that time...what more (or less in this case) would you want Microsoft to do to cater to its users. Also, change for change sake? Quit being so delusional, that is not true at all.
 
Galvin said:
They would probably sell more window 8 copies if they set up a way where desktop users can avoid metro. Or most of it.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.... they need to make the desktop the default when being used on a desktop or laptop, and I think that lots of the hate will disappear if they do just that....

Metro just isn't a good default UI. Having the ability to run metro apps on desktop Windows 8 is a nice plus, but trying, in any way, to force someone with a mouse and keyboard to use it to do anything more than the occasional app usage, is gonna result in much consternation.

Here's to hoping that MS will indeed make the desktop front and center for the final release. They have a fantastic OS waiting in the wings, and coupled with a unified mobile push, it would be a shame if a boneheaded push to the wrong UI on the desktop derails what would be the best full spectrum OS for the near future....
 
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