Windows 8 - Bad for both Noobs and Power Users - The Proof

heatlesssun

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I think its pretty apparent from the huge user feedback starting from the very first build of Win 8 all the way upto RTM that normal people do not feel comfortable with this UI. No amount of 'just use it and you'll like it' is going to change that.

It's only human that the first time that see or experience something is when we are most apprehensive and least knowledgeable. Over time by training, study and trial and error we become more comfortable and capable.

Desktop usage IS radically different, unless you discount such things as the start menu, charms bar, settings strewn all over the place, and a learning curver.

Do users spend most of their time with the Windows shell or in applications? I think that the key question in determining just how radical the differences are in the desktops between 7 and 8. The more time one spends using applications on the desktop the less radical the changes are.
 

Tsumi

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Also enjoy the reality that Windows 8 and Windows Vista are launching under extremely different circumstances...
 

Tsumi

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So it's failing for an entirely different reason than Vista did.

Check.

We'll see when the devices that Windows 8 is designed for comes out in larger numbers. But what's going to fudge these numbers is the fact that companies are still rolling out Windows 7.
 

heatlesssun

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So it's failing for an entirely different reason than Vista did.

Check.

Not exactly sure how this is a failure at this point. Windows 8 should become the 4th most popular desktop OS in the world this month after Windows 7, Windows XP and Windows Vista. And that's essentially with a very low percentage of touch hardware with much of it a no show over the holidays.
 

Grazehell

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Windows 8 on anything but a tablet is just terrible and even on a tablet I think it's bad!

This is coming someone who didn't even have much of a problem with Vista once the service pack was applied.
 

XOR != OR

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This info might be a little disheartening to Linux fans as well, Windows 8 blew well past all Linux distros last month, tough start for the new year of Linux on the desktop: http://netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0&qpct=2
The linux desktop is, essentially, a waste of time. I wish folks wouldn't make as big a deal as they do, or pretend it's going to challenge windows dominance in the desktop market without a serious amount of work.

Linux excels in a variety of roles, but consumer grade desktop GUIs ain't one of them. Linux admins/users used to be all about using the right tool for the job, but that perspective is critically undermined when they advocate the use of a linux desktop as a general windows replacement.

And Win8 is a failure because it's uptake is behind Vista's. Folks like to claim it's all about the "lack of touch" hardware, yet vista didn't have touch hardware either. And as we've agreed; touch hardware for the consumer workstation space is largely irrelevant.

Touch becomes interesting when you are talking about tablets and phones, not workstations. And even there, MS has such a huge task cut out for them, with all signs pointing to them failing. Horribly. When I can get a kindle fire for 129...where's my incentive to get a windows brand tablet?

I just don't see any hope for Windows 8 being anything more than a "learning experience" that helps prepare the world for windows 9. Which, you'll note, I've been saying for...what, half a year now? At least?
 

XOR != OR

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Vista "failed?" It sold what, two hundred, three hundred million copies? What does something have to do to be a success? :confused:
And what was the actual install base at it's peak? Not copies sold, but install base?

Some interesting data: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

So essentially, XP market share didn't change hugely until W7 was released. Let's reiterate that; Windows XP's market share, an OS released in 2001, retained a lion share of it's market share until 2009, when Windows 7 was released. Vista had almost..what? 1.8 years, and took a stunning ~15% of the market share away from XP? It wasn't until W7 came out that folks started upgrading. In addition, it took what looks like 4 months for W7 to surpass Vista market penetration.

So yes. Failure.
 
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Jay_2

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One thing is, there is no real reason to move to 8 from 7. Vista was crap, XP was supposed to be going out of support (although that was extended) so the move the 7 was an easy choice to make. Moving to 8 from 7 isn't as easy a choice as moving to 7 from Vista.

I still don't like Metro, its a nightmare over teamviewer etc and to put Metro on Server 2012 was just stupid! Who ever really uses the console for servers these days? Most are in the datacenter or VMs and having a big graphical front end with lots of moving / scrolling boxes is a really stupid move for a server OS.
 

heatlesssun

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And Win8 is a failure because it's uptake is behind Vista's. Folks like to claim it's all about the "lack of touch" hardware, yet vista didn't have touch hardware either. And as we've agreed; touch hardware for the consumer workstation space is largely irrelevant.

But there's a number of things to consider. One, Vista was five years after XP, there was more pent up demand for it than just three years after 7 for 8. Secondly, how many machines does that 1.72% actually represent? That's still a huge number of devices. But I never said once I expected a big uptake at the launch of Windows 8, indeed I pretty much expected this along with every other reasonable analyst out there. Perhaps Microsoft had something else in mind but they clearly know of the resistance to Windows 8. Consumer workstations? That's a market that had no chance of pushing big numbers in the ever shirking desktop market.

Touch becomes interesting when you are talking about tablets and phones, not workstations. And even there, MS has such a huge task cut out for them, with all signs pointing to them failing. Horribly. When I can get a kindle fire for 129...where's my incentive to get a windows brand tablet?

I just don't see any hope for Windows 8 being anything more than a "learning experience" that helps prepare the world for windows 9. Which, you'll note, I've been saying for...what, half a year now? At least?

Pricing is an issue with Windows tablets but I don't think that x86 tablets have to sell for $129 to do well, otherwise no one would buy laptops or desktops at all. I would love to see the numbers on the Acer and Samsung Clover Trail tablets but OEMs never publically give out that information.
 

Eman D. Rahym

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And Win8 is a failure because it's uptake is behind Vista's. Folks like to claim it's all about the "lack of touch" hardware, yet vista didn't have touch hardware either. And as we've agreed; touch hardware for the consumer workstation space is largely irrelevant.
What does the shape of the uptake curve have to do with whether an OS is any good or not? For me, Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7 in most every way, and it gives me access to the Windows Store and Metro apps. Why should I consider it a failure simply because people seem to be having trouble figuring that out? Did Vista even have a touch interface? If it did, I didn't notice.

Touch becomes interesting when you are talking about tablets and phones, not workstations. And even there, MS has such a huge task cut out for them, with all signs pointing to them failing. Horribly. When I can get a kindle fire for 129...where's my incentive to get a windows brand tablet?
You have this fixation on workstations. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I use them myself! However, the typical windows PC these days is not a workstation but a laptop. The trend away from desktop workstations is accelerating. I suspect touch on a laptop will be a far easier sell than on a desktop. If the Kindle Fire answers all your tablet needs, then good for you! I have one myself and it's a nifty toy. However, it seems to me people are still snapping up iPads despite the presence of the Fire. Why shouldn't Microsoft go after that market?

I just don't see any hope for Windows 8 being anything more than a "learning experience" that helps prepare the world for windows 9. Which, you'll note, I've been saying for...what, half a year now? At least?
Perhaps you're right. Why is that a bad thing?
 

XOR != OR

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Pricing is an issue with Windows tablets but I don't think that x86 tablets have to sell for $129 to do well, otherwise no one would buy laptops or desktops at all. I would love to see the numbers on the Acer and Samsung Clover Trail tablets but OEMs never publically give out that information.
It's laughable to suggest consumers might rush to replace their desktops with tablets. Less so with laptops; that I could actually see, possibly. Cost certainly becomes a factor here, as does screen size, but more importantly you have to overcome the role separation perception, which is far trickier of the three. Consumers have been trained that tablets are different from laptops, and MS's marketing hasn't exactly done a stellar job pointing out that this can do both. And at the price points I've heard, I don't know how many people are jumping at the prospect.

MS isn't apple. They can't sell by name alone. They have to show value BEFORE raping the customer ( whereas Apple is in a position to do that right out the gate ).
 

Eman D. Rahym

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And what was the actual install base at it's peak? Not copies sold, but install base?

Some interesting data: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

So essentially, XP market share didn't change hugely until W7 was released. Let's reiterate that; Windows XP's market share, an OS released in 2001, retained a lion share of it's market share until 2009, when Windows 7 was released. Vista had almost..what? 1.8 years, and took a stunning ~15% of the market share away from XP? It wasn't until W7 came out that folks started upgrading. In addition, it took what looks like 4 months for W7 to surpass Vista market penetration.

So yes. Failure.
Ah. So base hits are "failures" and only home runs are "successes."
 

XOR != OR

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What does the shape of the uptake curve have to do with whether an OS is any good or not? For me, Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7 in most every way, and it gives me access to the Windows Store and Metro apps. Why should I consider it a failure simply because people seem to be having trouble figuring that out? Did Vista even have a touch interface? If it did, I didn't notice.
MS, I am sure, considers W8's launch and initial numbers a failure. If you use it, and love it, kudos for you. But that's not what we're talking about ( although your attempted redirection was noticed, if it makes you feel any better )
You have this fixation on workstations. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I use them myself! However, the typical windows PC these days is not a workstation but a laptop. The trend away from desktop workstations is accelerating. I suspect touch on a laptop will be a far easier sell than on a desktop. If the Kindle Fire answers all your tablet needs, then good for you! I have one myself and it's a nifty toy. However, it seems to me people are still snapping up iPads despite the presence of the Fire. Why shouldn't Microsoft go after that market?
Because Apple trades on their name. They can turn 200 into 500 by virtue of who they are. MS....well, their marketing has been historically, and notoriously, bad. Between their TV ads and their online marketing presence...they aren't really winning folks over on the concept.
Perhaps you're right. Why is that a bad thing?
They didn't have to? I predict that windows 9 will see the return of the start menu, and a mode separation that many have been clamoring for.

Given how absolutely pig headed MS has been to consumer feedback over the past year, it seems a waste of time and energy. Namely mine. This saturday I have 3 more reverts on the books ( customer bought new PC for xmas, not digging 8 and wants 7 ). While that's money in my pocket, it rubs me the wrong way; I'd rather focus my time on other stuff.
 
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Eman D. Rahym

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It's laughable to suggest consumers might rush to replace their desktops with tablets. Less so with laptops; that I could actually see, possibly. Cost certainly becomes a factor here, as does screen size, but more importantly you have to overcome the role separation perception, which is far trickier of the three. Consumers have been trained that tablets are different from laptops, and MS's marketing hasn't exactly done a stellar job pointing out that this can do both. And at the price points I've heard, I don't know how many people are jumping at the prospect.

MS isn't apple. They can't sell by name alone. They have to show value BEFORE raping the customer ( whereas Apple is in a position to do that right out the gate ).
I'm sorry, I can't make any sense out of this post. I will say this: I have a Fire because I like the 7" form factor. If Microsoft or an OEM brought out a 7" tablet running Windows RT I'd seriously consider it as a replacement for my Fire. Why? Because I'd like a tablet that can run the same Metro apps I could run on my PC and vice versa.
 

XOR != OR

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Ah. So base hits are "failures" and only home runs are "successes."
Base hit. Singular. If the object of the game is to win, simply making it to first isn't going to cut it.

Furthermore, all that pent up demand for a new desktop OS, and all they manage in 1.8 years is ~15% market share conversion? Then 7 comes along and in approximately the same 1.8 year period not only surpasses Vista, but XP as well?

Yes, I'm sorry; that's a failure.
 

XOR != OR

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like this?
I could try that, although I suspect ER is having issues understanding the points presented. If true, that would go a long way in explaining why he/she doesn't understand why Win8's numbers are as bad a sign for MS as they are.
 

Eman D. Rahym

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MS, I am sure, considers W8's launch and initial numbers a failure. If you use it, and love it, kudos for you. But that's not what we're talking about ( although your attempted redirection was noticed, if it makes you feel any better )Because Apple trades on their name. They can turn 200 into 500 by virtue of who they are. MS....well, their marketing has been historically, and notoriously, bad. Between their TV ads and their online marketing presence...they aren't really winning folks over on the concept.They didn't have to? I predict that windows 9 will see the return of the start menu, and a mode separation that many have been clamoring for.
I suspect Microsoft doesn't see things in black and white as you seem to do. I will agree that they probably wished for better numbers but I hardly think they are going to admit to "failure" just yet, even in their minds. Do you follow American Football? Would you call the Giants' 2012 season a "failure?"

I do use Windows 8 and I do love it, but isn't it more appropriate to give kudos to Microsoft for that? What did I have to do with the creation of Windows 8?

Don't hold your breath for the return of the Start Menu!

Given how absolutely pig headed MS has been to consumer feedback over the past year, it seems a waste of time and energy. Namely mine. This saturday I have 3 more reverts on the books ( customer bought new PC for xmas, not digging 8 and wants 7 ). While that's money in my pocket, it rubs me the wrong way; I'd rather focus my time on other stuff.
You're really complaining about a chance to make money?
 

XOR != OR

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Don't hold your breath for the return of the Start Menu!
I stand by this prediction. And I may very well be wrong. But businesses will be looking at windows 9. MS knows this. I know admins, almost as well as I know users. If that start menu isn't back, no one is going to bite.
You're really complaining about a chance to make money?
I'm not happy about the reason, so yes. If nothing else, it's a waste of my customer's time and money. Given my clientele are mainly family and friends, this annoys me. On top of that, as many "computer guys" are aware of, YOU get blamed for the crap someone's computer does. If not "you" specifically, then "you" collectively.

Granted, I am very good working with people, but it's just one more thing I have to deal with. And it's such a stupid thing that could have easily been avoided. It riles me up.
 

Eman D. Rahym

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I could try that, although I suspect ER is having issues understanding the points presented. If true, that would go a long way in explaining why he/she doesn't understand why Win8's numbers are as bad a sign for MS as they are.
Hey, we're all friends here, right? You can call me Eman.

Things seem to be heating up between us and I'm not looking for a dispute. Can we agree to disagree on Windows 8?
 

heatlesssun

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It's laughable to suggest consumers might rush to replace their desktops with tablets. Less so with laptops; that I could actually see, possibly. Cost certainly becomes a factor here, as does screen size, but more importantly you have to overcome the role separation perception, which is far trickier of the three. Consumers have been trained that tablets are different from laptops, and MS's marketing hasn't exactly done a stellar job pointing out that this can do both. And at the price points I've heard, I don't know how many people are jumping at the prospect.

MS isn't apple. They can't sell by name alone. They have to show value BEFORE raping the customer ( whereas Apple is in a position to do that right out the gate ).

I do agree that Microsoft hasn't done the best job at marketing Windows 8 tablets but they are pretty complex devices. I agree that you have to show value but if you know what you're doing that pretty damned easy with a Windows 8 tablet. During the holidays every was very impressed with my Samsung Ativ 500T, but yeah, the price was a turn off but I do think that most people I showed it to got the idea that it was basically a combination of a iPad/Android tablet and a laptop and that definitely appealed to people I talked to.
 

XOR != OR

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Hey, we're all friends here, right? You can call me Eman.

Things seem to be heating up between us and I'm not looking for a dispute. Can we agree to disagree on Windows 8?
I'm not really friendly even in the best of times, but thanks anyway. However, disagreeing about 8 is one thing, and that's fine; opinions are opinions after all. I don't jump on anyone's case for liking it, knock yourself out. It's the purposefully misrepresenting arguments and engaging in argument fallacies that I take exceptions to.

( roughly translated; no, I will not stop pointing out flaws in arguments. yours or anyone elses )
 

Eman D. Rahym

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I stand by this prediction. And I may very well be wrong. But businesses will be looking at windows 9. MS knows this. I know admins, almost as well as I know users. If that start menu isn't back, no one is going to bite. I'm not happy about the reason, so yes. If nothing else, it's a waste of my customer's time and money. Given my clientele are mainly family and friends, this annoys me. On top of that, as many "computer guys" are aware of, YOU get blamed for the crap someone's computer does. If not "you" specifically, then "you" collectively.

Granted, I am very good working with people, but it's just one more thing I have to deal with. And it's such a stupid thing that could have easily been avoided. It riles me up.
Well, if you truly feel guilty about taking their money, why not see if you can figure out why they want to dump Windows 8 and help them with their issues? I may be feeble minded, but I'm not insane and I am one example of someone who not only has no problems with Windows 8 but who prefers it to every other OS Microsoft has released. If a dummy like me can figure it out, why can't sharp folks like you and your customers?

I'll be the first to admit that Windows 8 has a learning curve, that until the OS's quirks are mastered it can be opaque and that Microsoft has done a shitty job of teaching the world how to use it. However, I'll also assert that the details of Windows 8 are no harder to master than learning to tie your own shoe laces and could likely be fully covered in a fifteen minute session. What say you? What is so atrocious about Windows 8 that it's worth coughing up the price of a Windows 7 license in order to downgrade?
 

Eman D. Rahym

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I'm not really friendly even in the best of times, but thanks anyway. However, disagreeing about 8 is one thing, and that's fine; opinions are opinions after all. I don't jump on anyone's case for liking it, knock yourself out. It's the purposefully misrepresenting arguments and engaging in argument fallacies that I take exceptions to.

( roughly translated; no, I will not stop pointing out flaws in arguments. yours or anyone elses )
Fine by me! That's how I learn! Oddly enough, I feel as if the arguments by myself and the other Windows 8 proponents are also purposefully misrepresented. Weird, huh?

I guess the meta-lesson for us all is that typing into a discussion board is a vastly imperfect means of communication. I think these discussions would be much more civil and productive if we could all see one another face to face. Since that's not possible we've got to do the best with what we've got.
 

XOR != OR

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Well, if you truly feel guilty about taking their money, why not see if you can figure out why they want to dump Windows 8 and help them with their issues? I may be feeble minded, but I'm not insane and I am one example of someone who not only has no problems with Windows 8 but who prefers it to every other OS Microsoft has released. If a dummy like me can figure it out, why can't sharp folks like you and your customers?

I'll be the first to admit that Windows 8 has a learning curve, that until the OS's quirks are mastered it can be opaque and that Microsoft has done a shitty job of teaching the world how to use it. However, I'll also assert that the details of Windows 8 are no harder to master than learning to tie your own shoe laces and could likely be fully covered in a fifteen minute session. What say you? What is so atrocious about Windows 8 that it's worth coughing up the price of a Windows 7 license in order to downgrade?
They choose not to. I usually run about a 2 week lead time on appointments, so when folks call in asking for a downgrade I tell them I'll put them on the books, but that I encourage them to spend some time with the OS to get to know it. Get used to it. Maybe save them the OS installation fee. Then, when making my confirmation calls, I verify that they still want to do the installation and ask if I can help them get used to 8 in anyway.

To date, only 2 people have opted out of their appts. While it's not my place to worry about my customer's finances, I do it anyway. But if the customer is clear in what they want, I will perform the requested work.
 

MrCrispy

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I'm sorry, I can't make any sense out of this post. I will say this: I have a Fire because I like the 7" form factor. If Microsoft or an OEM brought out a 7" tablet running Windows RT I'd seriously consider it as a replacement for my Fire. Why? Because I'd like a tablet that can run the same Metro apps I could run on my PC and vice versa.

And he's saying you are in a minority. The fact that a device runs Metro/RT apps is in no way a plus for the vast majority of users. No one cares about Metro in general, at least at this point.

iPad worked because iOS had a huge base of apps already. 3 years after its launch, WP doesn't, and even if it did, they aren't RT. Actual RT apps are much less.

People need a reason to switch to Win 8/RT. Even on a tablet, its not really better than iOS or Android, and its definitely not better on the desktop. So the oft repeated logic 'the same apps will run everywhere and the devices have same UI' is not really the selling point MS would like to think it is.
 

MrCrispy

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Wow, this is the first time I've seen a Windows criticizer say Windows 8 can be good for power users. Everyone else says it's the absolute worse thing for power users.

Where did I say its better for power users?
 

Eman D. Rahym

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They choose not to. I usually run about a 2 week lead time on appointments, so when folks call in asking for a downgrade I tell them I'll put them on the books, but that I encourage them to spend some time with the OS to get to know it. Get used to it. Maybe save them the OS installation fee. Then, when making my confirmation calls, I verify that they still want to do the installation and ask if I can help them get used to 8 in anyway.

To date, only 2 people have opted out of their appts. While it's not my place to worry about my customer's finances, I do it anyway. But if the customer is clear in what they want, I will perform the requested work.
Zowie! You must have a lot of pissed off customers then! I mean, Windows 8 sold at retail doesn't come with downgrade rights, does it? If not then you must be either sending them out the door with bogus Windows 7 licenses, which I'm sure you'd never do, or billing them for a new Windows 7 license and likely $100 or more of shop time to do the downgrade. That's probably 20% to 25% or more of their initial purchase price! I'm sure they're simply thrilled to slap down that kind of money within weeks of purchase for a computer that isn't even broken! They must really hate Windows 8!
 

Eman D. Rahym

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And he's saying you are in a minority. The fact that a device runs Metro/RT apps is in no way a plus for the vast majority of users. No one cares about Metro in general, at least at this point.
MrCrispy, if I may be so bold, you do this a lot. You take a proposition and then attempt to generalize it into a universality. I've seen you do this repeatedly. Here for example you say that I am in the minority for caring about something, that what I care for is meaningless for the vast majority, and then that no one cares about what you already admitted I care about. I am someone. If I care about something then you cannot say that "no one" cares about it. Not without being wrong.

People need a reason to switch to Win 8/RT. Even on a tablet, its not really better than iOS or Android, and its definitely not better on the desktop. So the oft repeated logic 'the same apps will run everywhere and the devices have same UI' is not really the selling point MS would like to think it is.
But that the same apps will run everywhere and that the devices will have the same UI is exactly why I am waiting to buy a Windows tablet and not an iOS or another Android tablet. Seems like a pretty good selling point to me. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean their view points aren't valid.
 

heatlesssun

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People need a reason to switch to Win 8/RT. Even on a tablet, its not really better than iOS or Android, and its definitely not better on the desktop. So the oft repeated logic 'the same apps will run everywhere and the devices have same UI' is not really the selling point MS would like to think it is.

But there is no desktop with iOS or Android or the option to use one with a keyboard and mouse with native desktop apps. Use a Windows 8 tablet as tablet when that's the environment that works and a Windows 8 tablet like a laptop or desktop when that's what's needed. That's simply not possible natively with iOS and Android at the moment.
 

MrCrispy

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But there is no desktop with iOS or Android or the option to use one with a keyboard and mouse with native desktop apps. Use a Windows 8 tablet as tablet when that's the environment that works and a Windows 8 tablet like a laptop or desktop when that's what's needed. That's simply not possible natively with iOS and Android at the moment.

This is true if you have a new Win 8 touch ultrabook. Which is quite a small minority if you ask me. There will be millions of people who will use it on a normal pc, laptop, or tablet.

Hybrid computing is a special case, not the standard. I'm not sure I'd want an OS designed just for that 1 case which ends up compromising all other scenarios (everything has compromises, but in Win8 they seem esp obvious).
 

MrCrispy

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By calling heatless a power user and saying it was good for him. Everyone else says it's universally bad no matter the power user.

I don't like quite a few things about it yet I've been using it on all my pc's/laptps for over a year. Does that mean I like it, hate it or am I just plain crazy :eek:
 
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