Windows 8 - Bad for both Noobs and Power Users - The Proof

pelo

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http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-windows-8-sales-2012-11

Really bad news for Microsoft
Sales of its brand new operating system, Windows 8, are "well below projections," inside the company says Paul Thurott at Windows SuperSite.
Thurott is probably the most plugged-in Microsoft reporter. When he says something, you can trust it.

Microsoft is blaming its PC partners for the slow start, says Thurott. His source blamed PC makers "inability to deliver".
This is a strange, and frankly pathetic, explanation.
There's no question Apple makes the best laptops and companies like HP, Dell, and Asus, chase after what Apple makes.
But the PC makers are still reliant on Microsoft and its software. And they can only sell computers running on Windows.
The only real explanation of worse than expected sales is that Microsoft decided to mess with the world's most popular operating system and it's blowing up in its face.
As Thurott puts it: "Microsoft’s new whatever-the-F-it-is operating system is a confusing, Frankenstein’s monster mix of old and new that hides a great desktop upgrade under a crazy Metro front-end."


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-windows-8-sales-2012-11#ixzz2D3XcJ6h1

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/11/19/retailers_report_slow_win8_sales/

Expecting Windows 8 sales to start growing more rapidly post-launch, however, may be wishful thinking. The lack of demand NewEgg is seeing jibes with figures released last week by analyst outfit Forrester, which found that only 5 per cent of IT managers planned to upgrade in the next year.

On Friday, longtime Redmond-watcher Paul Thurrott blogged that Microsoft insiders have told him that the initial Windows 8 sales figures have been "disappointing," but that the company puts most of the blame on PC makers' "inability to deliver."

Indeed, many retailers have reported difficulty getting Windows 8 kit from OEMs, many of which don't plan to launch their full Windows 8 product lines until next year's CES conference.

But Thurrott himself speculated that a variety of factors have led customers to take a "wait and see" attitude toward the new OS, which he said has caused the Windows 8 launch to go off more like that of Vista than of Windows 7. "All of this was avoidable," he wrote.
 

B00nie

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Everything MS does is seen as a great goof-off by the usual suspects. Tell us something we don't know, just once.

Hahahah sales figures tell their own ugly tale. You may live in alternate reality but numbers don't lie :cool:
 

Ocellaris

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Blaming PC makers is just senseless finger pointing. If Windows 8 was better, PC makers would have put more effort into it.

Many people's first reaction to Windows 8 is 'wtf is this' and that isn't a good first impression.
 

heatlesssun

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The original article has been updated but the text I was referring to is still there:

Sales of Windows 8 PCs are well below Microsoft’s internal projections and have been described inside the company as disappointing. But here’s the catch: The software giant blames the slow start on lackluster PC maker designs and availability, further justifying its new Surface strategy. But Windows 8’s market acceptance can be blamed on many factors.

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-sales-well-below-projections-plenty-blame-go-around

I'll conceded that it's not exactly clear if what Microsoft was talking about was hardware, software or both but originally the source article did specifically mention hardware.

Also, Thurrott likes the Ativ Smart PC 500 and is saying pretty much what I and others have said about the device, it's performance and what and who it is for:

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/review-samsung-ativ-smart-pc

The biggest disagreement I have with him is over the digitizer. It actually works quite well in the onscreen keyboard and OneNote. The s-note apps are on the crappy side, slow and laggy like Thurrott was saying so that may be his issue, the effectiveness of the pen is very much app specific. Also at first I didn't care much for the integrated s-pen but after a while I started to like it a bit. No eraser and a little small but one can use most Wacom pens.
 

heatlesssun

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Blaming PC makers is just senseless finger pointing. If Windows 8 was better, PC makers would have put more effort into it.

Many people's first reaction to Windows 8 is 'wtf is this' and that isn't a good first impression.

OEMs have put a lot more effort into Windows 8 hardware than an other version of Windows. The Clover Trail platform is only for Windows 8 for instance and there have been more tablets introduced (if not currently on sale) for Windows than ever.
 

pelo

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The original article has been updated but the text I was referring to is still there:



http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-sales-well-below-projections-plenty-blame-go-around

I'll conceded that it's not exactly clear if what Microsoft was talking about was hardware, software or both but originally the source article did specifically mention hardware.

Also, Thurrott likes the Ativ Smart PC 500 and is saying pretty much what I and others have said about the device, it's performance and what and who it is for:

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/review-samsung-ativ-smart-pc

The biggest disagreement I have with him is over the digitizer. It actually works quite well in the onscreen keyboard and OneNote. The s-note apps are on the crappy side, slow and laggy like Thurrott was saying so that may be his issue, the effectiveness of the pen is very much app specific. Also at first I didn't care much for the integrated s-pen but after a while I started to like it a bit. No eraser and a little small but one can use most Wacom pens.

Both you and him liking that tablet has done nothing to spur sales for PCs and Win8 licenses.

I recall reading articles stating late 2013 will be when we finally see some more devices built around the OS and more tablets/hybrids using it. It looks like the retail channel was correct and the articles were true when they stated that Win8 sales won't pick up significantly until Q3 2013

-- sorry, forgot something.

Eyvba.gif
 
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heatlesssun

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And you posting the same GIF repeatedly isn't doing anything one way or the other either. But as more of these devices come online that actually could spur sales. There are a number of people in this forum waiting for new Windows 8 hardware.
 

Ocellaris

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OEMs have put a lot more effort into Windows 8 hardware than an other version of Windows. The Clover Trail platform is only for Windows 8 for instance and there have been more tablets introduced (if not currently on sale) for Windows than ever.

Back in the Windows ME days, MS had a tablet version of Windows and all of the major OEMs were on board. My company invested into optimizing software for those, they failed. So I wouldn't say there are more Windows tablets than ever right now. I think people just forgot MS already tried and failed.

Then we did a lot of work for net books, those failed as well. MS need to learn that building a new platform as on giant compromise doesn't work. Twice burned, we have zero plans to work on Win RT apps now.
 

pelo

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And you posting the same GIF repeatedly isn't doing anything one way or the other either. But as more of these devices come online that actually could spur sales. There are a number of people in this forum waiting for new Windows 8 hardware.

Hey hey, it's been different gifs, alright? Different gifs.

You claiming that sales will be spurred on sooner rather than later doesn't jive with reality or other analysts' and insiders' claims (look up). Source and citation to back up your claims, please.

tG7Xo.gif
 

heatlesssun

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Never said anything about the the timeline, I said when more new hardware becomes available and prices come down, which is exactly what the analysts and insiders are saying.
 

pelo

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Never said anything about the the timeline, I said when more new hardware becomes available and prices come down, which is exactly what the analysts and insiders are saying.

Late 2013, fyi. And that's still quite a big *if*, one that I don't believe will drastically change. Apple will keep gaining market share in the traditional PC space and MS will still have a relatively low market share in tablets/phones.

How does a person not know the difference between Will Smith and Alfonso Ribeiro?

I was shocked too. Does the man not own a television? Can he not recite the Fresh Prince of Bel Air theme with his eyes closed? Astonishing, I say.
 

heatlesssun

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Late 2013, fyi. And that's still quite a big *if*, one that I don't believe will drastically change. Apple will keep gaining market share in the traditional PC space and MS will still have a relatively low market share in tablets/phones.

Well a number of the analysts and insiders that you were referencing earlier are saying mid-2013, at any rate everyone is just guessing at this point.

But no matter what until there's new hardware to buy which isn't the case much now it probably won't pick up.
 

Globox

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How does a person not know the difference between Will Smith and Alfonso Ribeiro?


Now this is the story all about how my life got flipped turned upside down
and I'd like to take a minute
just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called [H] Air

In west Philadelphia, born and raised
on the playground is where I spend most of my days
chillin' out, maxin', relaxin', all cool and all
shootin' some b-ball outside of the school
when a couple of guys who were up to no good started makin' trouble in my neighborhood

I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
and said, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in [H] Air"
I whisteled for a cab and when it came near
the license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror
if anything I could say that this cab was rare
but I thought, "NAW FORGET IT YO HOME TO [H] AIR!"

I pulled up to the house about windows 7 or 8
and I yelled to the cab, "YO HOME SMELL YA LATA!"
I looked at my kingdom I was finally there
to sit on my throne as the prince of [H] Air

qU128.jpg
 

devil22

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Hahahah sales figures tell their own ugly tale. You may live in alternate reality but numbers don't lie :cool:

And what are those numbers? Anyway, I don't think it's a popularity contest you want, Linux is stuck at 1% for the last 10 years, and Mac OS X at less than 7%, Windows 8 will eat those up regardless.
 
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I purchased Pro, but instead of installing I waited for a few weeks to see how things went with it.

I finally took the plunge and did a clean install, loaded up all my drivers and games,

it took less than 20 minutes to BSOD and the installer to stop working so I couldn't install anything.

I'm back on 7, they can keep it..
 

B00nie

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And what are those numbers? Anyway, I don't think it's a popularity contest you want, Linux is stuck at 1% for the last 10 years, and Mac OS X at less than 7%, Windows 8 will eat those up regardless.

Those figures may change rapidly. The only reason why windows dominates is that MS has tied hardware vendors into using it and consumers are scared of change.

Now that 8 IS change it opens opportunities.
 

devil22

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Those figures may change rapidly. The only reason why windows dominates is that MS has tied hardware vendors into using it and consumers are scared of change.

Now that 8 IS change it opens opportunities.

Yea, I heard the same thing when Vista got released, constantly. Seems to me consumers are scared of OSes that don't work the way they want, so they stick to Windows, even when they're told by all the tech pundits how terrible it is. MS has not tied hardware vendors into anything, as usual you just make up stuff and hope nobody knows better, hardware vendors sell windows because that's what consumers want. I wonder how you get through the day being so backwards and illogical.
 

B00nie

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Yea, I heard the same thing when Vista got released, constantly. Seems to me consumers are scared of OSes that don't work the way they want, so they stick to Windows, even when they're told by all the tech pundits how terrible it is. MS has not tied hardware vendors into anything, as usual you just make up stuff and hope nobody knows better, hardware vendors sell windows because that's what consumers want. I wonder how you get through the day being so backwards and illogical.

Either you're awfully naive or just plain ignorant. It's a commonly known fact that MS has tied the hardware vendors into offering Windows and no other OSes. The ones that do offer alternatives are penalized by higher costs and fewer kickbacks.
 

devil22

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Either you're awfully naive or just plain ignorant. It's a commonly known fact that MS has tied the hardware vendors into offering Windows and no other OSes. The ones that do offer alternatives are penalized by higher costs and fewer kickbacks.

MS gives volume discounts because that is what OEMs asked MS for, it makes accounting much easier. Additionally they are not banned from offering other OSes, never have been. Once again the floor falls through on your entire argument, and I wouldn't call people ignorant, when you seem to have gotten your PHD from Slashdot misinformation.
 

harsaphes

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I purchased Pro, but instead of installing I waited for a few weeks to see how things went with it.

I finally took the plunge and did a clean install, loaded up all my drivers and games,

it took less than 20 minutes to BSOD and the installer to stop working so I couldn't install anything.

I'm back on 7, they can keep it..

Easiest install I've ever done. No problems with performance at all. Rig is used constantly every day. Every program we use including games run without a hitch. Curious on your comment, you say you couldn't install anything, but you also say you installed your drivers and games?
 
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no everything was fine, I installed some of my games, did an update, then boom whenever I tried to install something I got this error "windows installer stopped working and closed"

I even put in my MS office dvd and it wouldnt work, restore didn't work, I went into services and set it to ON and startedi it, same result,

that's when I said where are you win7 image lol
 

B00nie

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Win8 is going to have a long list of 'gotcha's for sure. The old saying to wait for a service pack comes from experience, not just from an urban legend.

Yesterday I ran into this weird problem where the music application in W8 jammed into showing 'now playing' without playing anything. Reboot, do whatever, the app is jammed and just crashes on start. Luckily there are other alternatives for playing music! :D
 

harsaphes

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The only "problem" I have run into is that Chrome seems really laggy.
 

MrCrispy

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There is NO usability study that shows non-touch pc's are more efficient with Win 8 Metro. The whole point of the UI is as a value sell for touch devices like the Surface, and hope that it catches on.

If anyone has followed the B8 blog, you'll know that most decisions were made using metrics - i.e. feature X is only used 5% of the time, hence its 'useless', we can get rid of it, and instead replace it with a touch based feature, because that obviously is more 'intuitive'.

There is a huge mandate to make the same UI for all devices, never mind usability or efficiency. Add on top things (that came from Sinofsky) like killing Aero, removing a ton of already well tested Win 7 features from Win 8, and the whole project begins to look like an obsession rather than a careful design project.

Do you realize how many well liked, useful, and well designed products with millions of loyal users MS killed off - WHS, Silverlight, Live Mesh, Zune, the list goes on! All because they thought Win 8 was so insanely great and nothing else could survive unless it was branded with Metro and built by the Windows team. This is the kind of arrogance and hubris that leads to the poor reception we're seeing.
 

heatlesssun

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Do you realize how many well liked, useful, and well designed products with millions of loyal users MS killed off - WHS, Silverlight, Live Mesh, Zune, the list goes on! All because they thought Win 8 was so insanely great and nothing else could survive unless it was branded with Metro and built by the Windows team. This is the kind of arrogance and hubris that leads to the poor reception we're seeing.

You're discounting the marketplace in much of this analysis. I'm not saying that Microsoft handled these products well at all but at some point you have to accept the reality of the marketplace. Silverlight is very much at odds with HTML 5, Live Mesh was cool but never had a lot of market. The market problems with Zune are well known.

And as for Windows 8, it's pretty clear that the Windows desktop is facing perhaps it biggest hurdle ever with tablets. There just isn't a desktop solution to market challenges that's facing Windows. Just look at what happened with Ubuntu today and the announcement of Ubuntu phones. Winning on the desktop simply doesn't cut it anymore.
 

odoe

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On my laptop, Metro is more like an add-on than anything else. I don't ever use it, nor notice it except when I still try to click a start menu by mistake.

I just search for apps with window+q to run them if they aren't on my taskbar. In how I work, Metro apps are pretty useless for me. If something like MetroTwit would send notifications to the desktop or maybe a sidebar to keep tabs of running Metro apps, I'd find it more useful. I guess something like the Netflix Metro app serves as an example of a useful Metro app, but it's like adding a Web Page shortcut to your iPhone screen if you know what I mean.

It doesn't really get in my way, but it doesn't add much to my day to day use either.
 

MrCrispy

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You're discounting the marketplace in much of this analysis. I'm not saying that Microsoft handled these products well at all but at some point you have to accept the reality of the marketplace. Silverlight is very much at odds with HTML 5, Live Mesh was cool but never had a lot of market. The market problems with Zune are well known.

That makes no sense at all.

Live Mesh had a number of features that Skydrive lacks. All they had to do was combine them. For a number of years that's exactly what many of us were begging MS to do - unify the backend used by Mesh and other service. Instead they kill the product and write a lame blog post lying about how Skydrive is 'better for the majority of users'.

SL is at odds with HTML5 because it is in fact a full featured language and dev environment, not a bunch of JS and non-standardized CSS hacks. So they decided to jump on the HTML5 bandwagon because it was the cool buzzword.

Zune was and is a great product. Killed because of marketing and the decision to rebrand the service as 'Xbox Music'. Xbox suffered billions in losses for years, with a little decent marketing Zune HD would have been a killer.

The problem is none of the divisions at MS ever bother to talk to one other.
 

MrCrispy

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And as for Windows 8, it's pretty clear that the Windows desktop is facing perhaps it biggest hurdle ever with tablets. There just isn't a desktop solution to market challenges that's facing Windows. Just look at what happened with Ubuntu today and the announcement of Ubuntu phones. Winning on the desktop simply doesn't cut it anymore.

You know its funny how the desktop suddenly doesn't matter when its the bulk of sales for Windows. The only reason MS can do this drastic change is because they have a monopoly - consumers don't have choice (Win 8 with new pc's) and businesses are tied into contracts.

You talk as if Windows 8 is a good solution to the problem of unifying touch and traditional. It's not.
 

wonderfield

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SL is at odds with HTML5 because it is in fact a full featured language and dev environment, not a bunch of JS and non-standardized CSS hacks. So they decided to jump on the HTML5 bandwagon because it was the cool buzzword.
JavaScript isn't a "full-featured" language? What is "full-featured"?
 

heatlesssun

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You talk as if Windows 8 is a good solution to the problem of unifying touch and traditional. It's not.

But this is exactly how I've used Windows 8 everyday for 15 months. It's pretty much does everything that Windows 7 does with traditional input devices, all the apps I use work perfectly and the touch interface is dramatically better.

I can't tell people to like Windows 8, I get that. But it's also kind of difficult for me to accept someone telling me that something doesn't work that I do every single day now. I'm not saying that Windows 8 doesn't have it's problems, only that it's perfectly useable as a hybrid across multiple devices and that the desktop usage isn't radically different from Windows 7 if one can adjust to it. But the touch experience is much better than prior versions of Windows.

But the hybrid nature does add complexity and it takes adjustment, perhaps too much for too many at this time.
 

MrCrispy

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But this is exactly how I've used Windows 8 everyday for 15 months. It's pretty much does everything that Windows 7 does with traditional input devices, all the apps I use work perfectly and the touch interface is dramatically better.

I can't tell people to like Windows 8, I get that. But it's also kind of difficult for me to accept someone telling me that something doesn't work that I do every single day now. I'm not saying that Windows 8 doesn't have it's problems, only that it's perfectly useable as a hybrid across multiple devices and that the desktop usage isn't radically different from Windows 7 if one can adjust to it. But the touch experience is much better than prior versions of Windows.

But the hybrid nature does add complexity and it takes adjustment, perhaps too much for too many at this time.

I've been using Win 8 for the same time, and continue to (I'm not going back to 7). I think you need to separate 'what works for you' vs 'what other people have to go through'. You are obviously a power user, I would call myself one as well.

I think its pretty apparent from the huge user feedback starting from the very first build of Win 8 all the way upto RTM that normal people do not feel comfortable with this UI. No amount of 'just use it and you'll like it' is going to change that.

Desktop usage IS radically different, unless you discount such things as the start menu, charms bar, settings strewn all over the place, and a learning curver.
 

wonderfield

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People have lived in Siberia for 15 month stretches (and then some). That doesn't mean Siberia is a good place to live.

The suggestion was that the unification isn't good, not that the unification isn't functional.
 

MrCrispy

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JavaScript isn't a "full-featured" language? What is "full-featured"?

For starters, simple things like classes, inheritance, public vs private etc. Yes I know all this can be done via various libs and prototypes etc, but the dev experience is vastly different. We just completed a huge project and I can tell you there are numerous issues and also strengths.

Anyway, a discussion for another thread, but MS decided to throw away WPF/SL for no reason at all.
 

pelo

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People have lived in Siberia for 15 month stretches (and then some). That doesn't mean Siberia is a good place to live.

The suggestion was that the unification isn't good, not that the unification isn't functional.

I think it can be a great thing if done correctly. You're obviously going to have to have a slightly different UI on your phone than you would on a desktop (wasted space, text sizes, scaling, multitasking, etc.), but having access to all of the same applications and general "feel" provides a sort of similarity that simplifies computing to a great extent.

For example: A person who's only used iOS might find things slightly confusing in OS X but still miles better than how'd they fair when tasked to do the same things in Windows n.

If it's done in a smart matter and isn't rushed and forced (Metro), then it's got great potential. Although people are only going to feel more and more at home with computing as a whole and find using things like gadgets and PCs more easily than the previous generation, there's still a lot to be said for "ease of use." It's important not to shoe-horn a single solution in there, though. That's how you create a backlash :D
 

LstBrunnenG

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For starters, simple things like classes, inheritance, public vs private etc. Yes I know all this can be done via various libs and prototypes etc, but the dev experience is vastly different. We just completed a huge project and I can tell you there are numerous issues and also strengths.

Anyway, a discussion for another thread, but MS decided to throw away WPF/SL for no reason at all.

So basically C isn't fully featured either. Gotcha.
 

Tsumi

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On my laptop, Metro is more like an add-on than anything else. I don't ever use it, nor notice it except when I still try to click a start menu by mistake.

I just search for apps with window+q to run them if they aren't on my taskbar. In how I work, Metro apps are pretty useless for me. If something like MetroTwit would send notifications to the desktop or maybe a sidebar to keep tabs of running Metro apps, I'd find it more useful. I guess something like the Netflix Metro app serves as an example of a useful Metro app, but it's like adding a Web Page shortcut to your iPhone screen if you know what I mean.

It doesn't really get in my way, but it doesn't add much to my day to day use either.

That is exactly how I treat Metro, and exactly what I feel about the Start Screen vs Start Menu. There are some things I like better, and some things I like not as much. But I will enjoy the benefits that Windows 8 has under the hood.

I've been using Win 8 for the same time, and continue to (I'm not going back to 7). I think you need to separate 'what works for you' vs 'what other people have to go through'. You are obviously a power user, I would call myself one as well.

I think its pretty apparent from the huge user feedback starting from the very first build of Win 8 all the way upto RTM that normal people do not feel comfortable with this UI. No amount of 'just use it and you'll like it' is going to change that.

Desktop usage IS radically different, unless you discount such things as the start menu, charms bar, settings strewn all over the place, and a learning curver.

Wow, this is the first time I've seen a Windows criticizer say Windows 8 can be good for power users. Everyone else says it's the absolute worse thing for power users.
 
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