Windows 8 - Bad for both Noobs and Power Users - The Proof

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
I'm sorry but no, I wouldn't think. They didn't listen to the people who said they wanted to have a normal start menu on their non-touchscreen desktop PCs. Also, saying that you can't have a customisable Metro screen because of potential bugs is beyond ludicrous.

I'm a huge supporter of Microsoft... I make my living off supporting their products, for the most part. IMO in this case they got it 100% wrong. IMO Ballmer has said that this is the way it will be and screw everyone who thinks differently. That unwillingness to listen to others is a hallmark of his career and will hopefully be his downfall with Windows 8.

For many people, being able to customise your desktop to how they want it to be is crucial to them. The icon thing may not be a big deal to some people, but trust me, it will be a nightmare for me for some of my customers who do switch to Windows 8. The end result will be that many of them will go back to Windows 7. It will also result in others not even bothering to switch to 8.

You are wrong to say it's 'beyond ludicrous" to say it's because of bugs. For the one or several features *you* want, maybe, but not everybody wants the same features. If MS tried to please everyone or even a lot of people with unnecessary features, bugs and bloat would be a concern. The other OSes can get away with bugs, as the most commonly used software on the planet, MS gets raked over the coals for every single security bug that pops up in Windows, and business and governments pay the costs, and so on. Now maybe there's no reason to worry, but if MS displeases a critical mass of users and businesses/governments, it might mean their downfall. Personally, I could care less about random arrangements of tiles, and I just can't believe any other serious person would either, it would've showed in MS' usability studies if many people wanted that, you think MS doesn't want your money, or can't code it? I don't get it. If you just want to take a few shots at Balmer (isn't this a Sinofsky product mostly?) to make yourself feel big, well nobody's going to stop you..
 

odoe

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Messages
9,798
Windows 8 is different for sure from a user standpoint, but I've been liking it so far. App integration needs work though. For example, MetroTwit has a Win8 "App" and a desktop app. I don't want to install both, I just want to see MetroTwit updates in my desktop and not have to switch back and forth. Install both at least if you can detect I have a desktop or people are going to end up with multiple installs of basically the same app when they need it. I'm sure this happens with other apps.

My 2 cents. Not a deal breaker since I like most of the rest of Win8.
 

Cobalt35

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,164
You are wrong to say it's 'beyond ludicrous" to say it's because of bugs. For the one or several features *you* want, maybe, but not everybody wants the same features. If MS tried to please everyone or even a lot of people with unnecessary features, bugs and bloat would be a concern. The other OSes can get away with bugs, as the most commonly used software on the planet, MS gets raked over the coals for every single security bug that pops up in Windows, and business and governments pay the costs, and so on. Now maybe there's no reason to worry, but if MS displeases a critical mass of users and businesses/governments, it might mean their downfall. Personally, I could care less about random arrangements of tiles, and I just can't believe any other serious person would either, it would've showed in MS' usability studies if many people wanted that, you think MS doesn't want your money, or can't code it? I don't get it. If you just want to take a few shots at Balmer (isn't this a Sinofsky product mostly?) to make yourself feel big, well nobody's going to stop you..
You keep on saying it was bugs... do you have some sort of inside information, or was there an interview where they said this, or what?
 

DigitalisAkujin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
178
So just tried to upgrade my daily computer. Tried to boot of USB. It kept stalling. Googled a bit. Found out i had to disable floppy drive in bios. Then once i finally got it booted it told me to upgrade i have to do it from inside Windows 7. Then I did that and it told me i had to uninstall Windows Security Essentials and Daemon Tools Pro because they were "incompatible". I did that and it started installing. It failed at 85% with the vaguest error message ever.

Yay Windows 8. Continuing the Windows tradition of sucking at upgrades.

Specs in my sig.

Update
After spending an hour copying my entire 80GB steam folder from my C:\ (Raid 0 120GB SSD x2) to my 2TB WD Caviar Black at (E:\) and my Dropbox folder to X:\ (120GB SSD) I proceeded to booting from the USB drive, formatting the Raid 0, and started installing.

First time randomly failed. Got scared I would have to go to my car to get my laptop in the middle of the night. Tried again and this time it worked.

In the middle of installations now. This will take some time~

Metro start is easier to deal with when you're using more than one monitor.
 
Last edited:

DigitalisAkujin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
178
windows8metrouiblack-problem.png


This is currently my main problem with Metro. Notice title text and minimize / maximize buttons. If you look closely it's there but it's black on black.
 

skiman

n00b
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
2
Exactly... Apple OSX can do it, Android can do it, Linux can do it, FreeBSD can do it... hell, even iOS can do it more than Windows 8 can.

Unless Microsoft has Farmer Brown and his good wife Betty doing their programming, the only reason Windows 8 can't do it is because it's a tablet OS that also runs on a desktop. Microsoft is trying to out-Apple Apple and IMO they've failed miserably... even Apple has OSX and iOS.

Windows has also been a much better OS than anything Mac had to offer, only sheep ever bought apple stuff, supporting anything apple besides setting up email on an iphone, ipad is a nightmare, except for when some idiot wants terminal server access from his ipad mini, pathetic. Windows 8 is great, only noobs fear it. Noobs such as yourself will learn sooner or later
 

Majic 7

n00b
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
13
Not going to read through five pages of arguing but if you are not aware it is possible to boot directly to the desktop. The two things I do to avoid Metro, I do use it occasionaly but I have Win key for that. 1, disable the setting in PC settings that forces you to log-in after waking from sleep. 2, drag the desktop tile to the upper left corner of the start grid. When you reboot and have entered your password do not press the next key or just press enter. You have to hold enter and then you are at the desktop. Tutorial http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/7449-desktop-boot-directly-windows-8-a.html?filter And if you are on the desktop when you enter sleep you should wake to sleep. This is how it is intended to work. Doing these things I never see Metro unless I want to.
 

Dogs

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
1,141
This bit right here is hilarious.

Harvard Business School
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/7124.html
Nested quotes are super fun said:
“Open up a PDF in the native viewer and you have to 'intuitively' know to press ctrl + p to print the file. I can't tell you how many times I've sat there getting angry trying to figure out how to get something done. I'm not an idiot when it comes to computers, but this OS made me feel like one."
"Your software should not make anyone feel like an idiot," Kanter advises.”

It's called having ever used a computer...ever. I like how this person says they're not an idiot when it comes to computers, but considering Ctrl+P wasn't the first thing they tried, I think they're giving themselves far too much credit.

Needless to say, this user clearly doesn't understand the 'Modern UI' at all. Any device a Modern UI application can interact with shows up under 'Devices' in the charms menu, so if you're not a fan of productivity and therefore can't be bothered to hit Ctrl+P, you can always move the mouse to the side to bring up the charms menu and click 'Devices'. That roughly amounts to the same amount of effort as clicking 'File' and going to 'Print...' in a traditional desktop application.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
I only did this because every time I try to bring up real usability issues with Windows 8 I get back responses like "you're not used to it" or "you don't want to change". Honestly it's all bullshit meant to mask extremely bad usability decisions. I felt like I had to make my case by letting others make it for me.

The only way to force Microsoft's hand is to make the case against Windows 8 very clear.

Trying to argue against windows zealots here too strongly will only result in you getting banned in the end as was seen when Vista was launched and to the certain few "all was green" and there was no bad word to be said of the wonderful Vista.

Now years later there's not a person found who wouldn't agree with the protestors but that's all lost in history :)
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
History lessons from a guy who's been here 21 days, that's rich. Anyways, it's odd you say that because I am certain the contentless and repetitive hate posts are only designed to get legitimate users here banned by inciting them, but oh well.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
This bit right here is hilarious.



It's called having ever used a computer...ever. I like how this person says they're not an idiot when it comes to computers, but considering Ctrl+P wasn't the first thing they tried, I think they're giving themselves far too much credit.

You apologists are something else lol!

99% of people use computers solely through GUI. They can't even navigate tree menus using the arrows let alone use key combos. I'm a software trainer by profession so I have experience from thousands of end-users ranging from 18 years to 60+.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
History lessons from a guy who's been here 21 days, that's rich. Anyways, it's odd you say that because I am certain the contentless and repetitive hate posts are only designed to get legitimate users here banned by inciting them, but oh well.

I've "been here" since the conception of HardOCP. I just didn't post for like 10 years. It's funny how you're trying to debunk users by their forum using time lol. Real funny :D
 

Dogs

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
1,141
You apologists are something else lol!

99% of people use computers solely through GUI. They can't even navigate tree menus using the arrows let alone use key combos. I'm a software trainer by profession so I have experience from thousands of end-users ranging from 18 years to 60+.

I maintain my position that any person who cannot think to hit Ctrl+P when attempting to print cannot say they're "not an idiot when it comes to computers". Maybe it's time for computer users to transcend a little, if 99% of them don't actually know how to use a computer as you claim.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
I maintain my position that any person who cannot think to hit Ctrl+P when attempting to print cannot say they're "not an idiot when it comes to computers". Maybe it's time for computer users to transcend a little, if 99% of them don't actually know how to use a computer as you claim.

Maybe it's time for you to look in the mirror. The vast majority of end-users do not know a single keyboard function. I've seen office workers who have used Excel for decades and they still use right click menus to perform copy/paste.

It's a gigantic step backwards in usability if you're all of the sudden forced to use a key combo for a function that people have used for decades through GUI. Of course once they learn the combos there will be improved efficiency - but that may never supplement the time lost trying by the end users banging their heads to the wall with missing interfaces.

W8 is going to see a huge amount of very frustrated users - the ones that are used to the old interfaces. New ones won't have so big problems most likely.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
I've "been here" since the conception of HardOCP. I just didn't post for like 10 years. It's funny how you're trying to debunk users by their forum using time lol. Real funny :D

Some things can be debunked by forum using time, such as people saying they use the forum x amount, when that is not the case. And telling us of all the people that got banned for attacking Vista, well, your forum time is 21 days, and you have not given us a list of these 'victims', nor does anyone corroborate your story. It's a bunch of bull. This is a fairly mature forum, and you really have to cross the line to get banned, and you usually get a warning. It's nothing but a lame attempt to make people feel sorry for the haters so they can break the rules, and they alone.

Maybe it's time for you to look in the mirror. The vast majority of end-users do not know a single keyboard function. I've seen office workers who have used Excel for decades and they still use right click menus to perform copy/paste.

It's a gigantic step backwards in usability if you're all of the sudden forced to use a key combo for a function that people have used for decades through GUI. Of course once they learn the combos there will be improved efficiency - but that may never supplement the time lost trying by the end users banging their heads to the wall with missing interfaces.

W8 is going to see a huge amount of very frustrated users - the ones that are used to the old interfaces. New ones won't have so big problems most likely.

Nobody has to use keyboard shortcuts, it's right there in charms under devices. So Win 8 is not going to frustrate users, and they will be more efficient.
 

Tsumi

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
13,508
I've "been here" since the conception of HardOCP. I just didn't post for like 10 years. It's funny how you're trying to debunk users by their forum using time lol. Real funny :D

If you've been here for 10+ years, why did your first 50+ post consist of endless "Windows 8 sucks, anyone who likes it is Microsoft sheep" and flame-baiting comments? I would have expected you to be mature enough to actually be helpful to the community.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
If you've been here for 10+ years, why did your first 50+ post consist of endless "Windows 8 sucks, anyone who likes it is Microsoft sheep" and flame-baiting comments? I would have expected you to be mature enough to actually be helpful to the community.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize this thread is a help thread. I honestly thought this is a discussion about Windows8 and it's highs and lows. Maybe the OP should change the title?
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
Some things can be debunked by forum using time, such as people saying they use the forum x amount, when that is not the case. And telling us of all the people that got banned for attacking Vista, well, your forum time is 21 days, and you have not given us a list of these 'victims', nor does anyone corroborate your story. It's a bunch of bull. This is a fairly mature forum, and you really have to cross the line to get banned, and you usually get a warning. It's nothing but a lame attempt to make people feel sorry for the haters so they can break the rules, and they alone.

Oh I see, in order to make my point the banned should come here to reply to you it's true they were blocked from the forum? :D

I can't express myself freely but to put it kindly, have you not considered the chance that old time users may have post 10 years ago with an another id that they've lost?

Nobody has to use keyboard shortcuts, it's right there in charms under devices. So Win 8 is not going to frustrate users, and they will be more efficient.

Just in the parallel thread was a discussion about having to use alt+f4 and control+p in certain situations for example. W8 is not only GOING to frustrate users, it's already doing so. The large amount of blogs bashing it are a testament to that!
 

Tsumi

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
13,508
Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize this thread is a help thread. I honestly thought this is a discussion about Windows8 and it's highs and lows. Maybe the OP should change the title?

Discussions about highs and lows, you actually had the galls to say that?

All you've been saying is the lows, and to further push your point you post half truths and exaggerations, and then proclaim Microsoft is going to fail and Linux is going to reign supreme. You also refuse to allow yourself to be corrected.

That's not a discussion. That's propaganda.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
Oh I see, in order to make my point the banned should come here to reply to you it's true they were blocked from the forum? :D

I can't express myself freely but to put it kindly, have you not considered the chance that old time users may have post 10 years ago with an another id that they've lost?

I've considered that nobody else has stated that to corroborate your accidental conspiracy theory, and that it is against the rules to make another account so you would not possibly be doing that.


Just in the parallel thread was a discussion about having to use alt+f4 and control+p in certain situations for example. W8 is not only GOING to frustrate users, it's already doing so. The large amount of blogs bashing it are a testament to that!

You need to get updated on events, that was shown to be nonsense, so Windows 8 is the best OS ever, or whatever.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
Discussions about highs and lows, you actually had the galls to say that?

All you've been saying is the lows, and to further push your point you post half truths and exaggerations, and then proclaim Microsoft is going to fail and Linux is going to reign supreme. You also refuse to allow yourself to be corrected.

That's not a discussion. That's propaganda.

Oh so now there's already a rule that each post must contain BOTH highs and lows? :D

I've said a couple of positive things about 8 too. They're far and between but do exist! Fast boot being one. That's what sucks the most. 8 had much potential without the porked UI.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
I've considered that nobody else has stated that to corroborate your accidental conspiracy theory, and that it is against the rules to make another account so you would not possibly be doing that.

Read what you write and think how ridiculous your text is. So you're saying that if someone a decade ago made an account to hardforum and forgot its details, never can create a new account again? :D

Not to mention that you're making the ridiculously foolish assumption that post count would have anything to do with a users experience regardless of the fact! Bill Gates has 0 posts on hardforum. Therefore he knows nothing about windows. Right? :D

You need to get updated on events, that was shown to be nonsense, so Windows 8 is the best OS ever, or whatever.

So you're conveniently sidestepping the dozens if not hundreds of blogs that absolutely bash the modern UI. I see. I rest my case.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
Read what you write and think how ridiculous your text is. So you're saying that if someone a decade ago made an account to hardforum and forgot its details, never can create a new account again? :D

Not to mention that you're making the ridiculously foolish assumption that post count would have anything to do with a users experience regardless of the fact! Bill Gates has 0 posts on hardforum. Therefore he knows nothing about windows. Right? :D
This isn't about Windows, it's about users you claim were unfairly banned on *this* forum, which I'm sure bill gates knows nothing about. Or maybe it's about Santa claus, because you hardly reference the topic or seem to know what it is most the time.

So you're conveniently sidestepping the dozens if not hundreds of blogs that absolutely bash the modern UI. I see. I rest my case.

Side stepped what? "Metro Apps have square tiles instead of rounded ones, Windows 8 is the worst OS ever and Balmer should be ashamed!" type stuff, it's no different than the crap you write, and we all know how ridiculous that is. You have rested your case without the facts. I rest my case.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
This isn't about Windows, it's about users you claim were unfairly banned on *this* forum, which I'm sure bill gates knows nothing about. Or maybe it's about Santa claus, because you hardly reference the topic or seem to know what it is most the time.

You're out of touch with reality. Are you claiming nobody has got banned from this forum now? :eek:

How about answering my question? Are people supposed to stop using HardForum if they lose their old username? Do tell!

Side stepped what? "Metro Apps have square tiles instead of rounded ones, Windows 8 is the worst OS ever and Balmer should be ashamed!" type stuff, it's no different than the crap you write, and we all know how ridiculous that is. You have rested your case without the facts. I rest my case.

That's finally a definative and emptying answer to my.. WAIT A MINUTE! :mad: You didn't answer it at all! You got me going there for a second! :rolleyes:

What do rounded corners have to do with 99% of bloggers bashing your perfect OS?
 

Ruoh

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
5,858
They ban people for a reason, B00nie. I may not always agree with mod decisions myself, but you are obviously one contentious m-efer.
 

Tsumi

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
13,508
Oh so now there's already a rule that each post must contain BOTH highs and lows? :D

I've said a couple of positive things about 8 too. They're far and between but do exist! Fast boot being one. That's what sucks the most. 8 had much potential without the porked UI.

And the UI is completely subjective as to whether a user likes it or not. You're pushing it as fact that the UI sucks to being borderline unusable, which is clearly not the case.

As I said, that's not a discussion. You're spewing propaganda, and I'm simply correcting your half-truths and exaggerations.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
You're out of touch with reality. Are you claiming nobody has got banned from this forum now? :eek:

Where did I say that? I've never seen someone *unfairly* banned.


How about answering my question? Are people supposed to stop using HardForum if they lose their old username? Do tell!



That's finally a definative and emptying answer to my.. WAIT A MINUTE! :mad: You didn't answer it at all! You got me going there for a second! :rolleyes:

What do rounded corners have to do with 99% of bloggers bashing your perfect OS?

Frankly I don't care, remake another account and continue trolling if you want. What do rounded corners have to do with my "perfect OS"? Nothing, that's the point, just like 99% of the blogger's and forum hater's material, absolutely nothing.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
And the UI is completely subjective as to whether a user likes it or not. You're pushing it as fact that the UI sucks to being borderline unusable, which is clearly not the case.

As I said, that's not a discussion. You're spewing propaganda, and I'm simply correcting your half-truths and exaggerations.

Quite the opposite, you're spreading MS propaganda and denial. Modern UI on desktop will be seen as one of the great goof-offs of MS. Just watch.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
9,287
Where did I say that? I've never seen someone *unfairly* banned.

You hardly see everything that goes on in this forum, do you? I know for a fact people have got banned for bashing Vista with facts - the other users like you didn't appreciate that and cried to the admins long enough.

Frankly I don't care, remake another account and continue trolling if you want. What do rounded corners have to do with my "perfect OS"? Nothing, that's the point, just like 99% of the blogger's and forum hater's material, absolutely nothing.

You're the one that turned the discussion to rounded corners and failed to return the argument asked. Just as you're doing now. Stick to the subject and quit finding excuses or changing subjects.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
You hardly see everything that goes on in this forum, do you? I know for a fact people have got banned for bashing Vista with facts - the other users like you didn't appreciate that and cried to the admins long enough.

You haven't posted a list of those users, linked to the threads where they were banned for 'nothing' or basically done anything but asserted another baseless internet conspiracy.


You're the one that turned the discussion to rounded corners and failed to return the argument asked. Just as you're doing now. Stick to the subject and quit finding excuses or changing subjects.

How does one do all of that, short of saying everything you say is 100% correct? I'd love to know. As I said, you manufacture issues and complain when people point this out.
 

devil22

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
3,837
Quite the opposite, you're spreading MS propaganda and denial. Modern UI on desktop will be seen as one of the great goof-offs of MS. Just watch.

Everything MS does is seen as a great goof-off by the usual suspects. Tell us something we don't know, just once.
 

Eman D. Rahym

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
424
You hardly see everything that goes on in this forum, do you? I know for a fact people have got banned for bashing Vista with facts - the other users like you didn't appreciate that and cried to the admins long enough.



You're the one that turned the discussion to rounded corners and failed to return the argument asked. Just as you're doing now. Stick to the subject and quit finding excuses or changing subjects.
Truly, yours is a dizzying intellect.
 

harsaphes

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
5,039
Wow. I just clicked on the last page of this thread and Wow. WTF is going on?
 

pelo

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
2,911
Microsoft's own estimates claim that Win8 adoption is "well below estimates" (direct quote) and retail channels aren't pushing through product. Win7 sold 5-6x as many licenses as Win8 has sold in the same period of time.

You fanboys and idiots on both sides can argue back and forth all you want, because at the end of the day the sales are what matters and they've been poor. It failed.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
No, it is a rumor that said that sales of Windows 8 PCs were well below Microsoft's expectations but with the lack of new tablet and touch hardware currently that's not that surprising.
 
Top