Windows 8 - Bad for both Noobs and Power Users - The Proof

TonyLee

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I have read plenty of negative things about Win 8, but would still like to give it a shot since I have used so many different versions of Windows over the years. I ordered a new hard drive along with a copy of Win 8 and will put it on that hard drive, and will leave 7 on this one for a while to see how I like 8. Hopefully it will not be as bad as some of the stuff that I have read.
 

heatlesssun

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Regardless of pc sales slowing down, total pc sales will still be higher than touch devices.

Not is tablets keep up high growth rates and PCs growth rates remain low to moderate.

And lets not ignore the hundreds of millions of consumer pc's which don't have and will never have any touch capability. Is Win 8 not meant for these people? How is their life going to be more productive? You can say Win 8 boots faster and they may find WinRT apps useful, but then don't say the learning curve of Win 8 is easy or that it actually offers any usability benefits. Learning how to use a new UI just for the sake of learning helps no one.

At one point most PC users didn't have mice. Windows 8 works fine for a lot of people with just a mouse and keyboard. I have yet to see anyone mention any repetitive task that I can't do just as easily in Windows 8 as Windows 7 with a mouse and keyboard and all the same software is there and programs are where almost all people spend the VAST majority of their productive time. And there are a lot more people finding productive uses for tablets. Their size and form factor allow them to more portable so it's easier to fill out forms, take notes (and for me this is a biggie especially with a pen), the types of things that don't lend themselves to be in a position to always use a laptop. And it's not all about productivity, PCs in part have become popular because of their entertainment capabilities as well.

And it's not a new UI for the sake of a new UI. It's a new UI and ecosystem that fits in with the fastest growing segment in the computing device space, tablets. Metro does allow for a better balance of traditional computing and touch and tablets than prior versions of Windows. Some say that's something is lost in the hybrid design. And that would mostly in my opinion be a training issue as this is a UI that's not just for desktops. But once you do get the new UI you now have a lot more options to take a PC, a full x86 PC and use it easier than ever before in a mobile scenario without a keyboard and mouse.
 

heatlesssun

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Also, WINDOWS 8 WORKS PERFECTLY FINE WITH A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD. Productivity probably won't increase, but it won't decrease either besides in a few rare scenarios.

This the argument that I simply reject from Windows 8 opponents, at least as it relates to using desktop applications. There's just no difference in using and navigating those apps because they are the SAME apps and if they are pinned to the task bar they even launch the same. The major difference would be in launching from the Start Screen, which I know, the hidden hot corners but once you know how that works it's not rocket science.
 

polonyc2

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Collecting everything everyone says that's bad about Windows 8 (note: opinions) doesn't make proof that its going to fail & be strongly hated.

You may have done you homework but that doesn't mean you're doing a favor for anyone here.

Windows 8 will fail on its own without people collecting negative reviews/comments ;)
 

Devastadus

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I don't get it. Win 8 feels the same as Win 7 except for the start button, To me it dosen't feel that big of a deal. Just stick with win 7 if you dont like it
 

odditory

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Also, WINDOWS 8 WORKS PERFECTLY FINE WITH A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD. Productivity probably won't increase, but it won't decrease either besides in a few rare scenarios.

Can you imagine a salesman in the PC section as a customer is asking him "Why should I upgrade to Windows 8?" and him replying "well your productivity won't increase, but probably won't decrease either" -- now that is compelling.

Salesman: "Want to switch apps? Ok, slowly drag the left "border", then drag it back to make the apps pop up. Want to close an app? Same as before, slowly drag the left border, then drag it back to make apps pop up, then drag the app window down to the bottom. See that? It's METRO-TASTIC!"

Customer: "Why aren't the backspace or escape keys doing anything?"

Salesman: "Trolololol !"
 

y0bailey

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Jesus christ. I went into this with a full open mind and I honestly haven't read any reviews. The install process was amazing. Mad props for the upgrade from 7 to 8. No work at all. Zero driver issues.

Now....the bad. Jesus christ metro is useless on a desktop. 5 hours in and I just couldn't stand it anymore. Start button returned.

My Router attached USB HDD isn't recognized anymore. Why? No idea. Just isn't. All the win7 machines recognize without any configuration.


I am going to ride it out for a bit...but I think I am going to hate it.
 

Tsumi

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Can you imagine a salesman in the PC section as a customer is asking him "Why should I upgrade to Windows 8?" and him replying "well your productivity won't increase, but probably won't decrease either" -- now that is compelling.

Salesman: "Want to switch apps? Ok, slowly drag the left "border", then drag it back to make the apps pop up. Want to close an app? Same as before, slowly drag the left border, then drag it back to make apps pop up, then drag the app window down to the bottom. See that? It's METRO-TASTIC!"

Customer: "Why aren't the backspace or escape keys doing anything?"

Salesman: "Trolololol !"

Faster bootup and shutdown. Improved task manager. Improved file transfer. Improved security. Makes the entire OS better, but does it increase productivity? No. Did Windows 7 increase productivity from Windows XP? No.

And again, you are NOT FORCED TO USE METRO APPS.

Seriously, this is getting old, repetitive, and pointless.
 

heatlesssun

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Salesman: "Want to switch apps? Ok, slowly drag the left "border", then drag it back to make the apps pop up. Want to close an app? Same as before, slowly drag the left border, then drag it back to make apps pop up, then drag the app window down to the bottom. See that? It's METRO-TASTIC!"

This isn't how it works with mouse, you only drag from the top to close a Metro app and I bet I can close one with a mouse faster than most people have to "slowly and carefully" point to and click a close box, assuming the close box actually closes the program. On a laptop certified for Windows you can flick from the left edge to switch between Metro apps. And if the device is

Customer: "Why aren't the backspace or escape keys doing anything?"

Do these do anything in desktop apps in terms of program navigation?
 

Tsumi

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Jesus christ. I went into this with a full open mind and I honestly haven't read any reviews. The install process was amazing. Mad props for the upgrade from 7 to 8. No work at all. Zero driver issues.

Now....the bad. Jesus christ metro is useless on a desktop. 5 hours in and I just couldn't stand it anymore. Start button returned.

My Router attached USB HDD isn't recognized anymore. Why? No idea. Just isn't. All the win7 machines recognize without any configuration.


I am going to ride it out for a bit...but I think I am going to hate it.

What issues are you having with it as far as the interface goes? The stock tutorial isn't very helpful, and there's a lot of hidden tricks and shortcuts that would make navigating a lot quicker and easier. I think one of the most important ones is right-clicking the lower left corner, or Windows key + x.
 

DigitalisAkujin

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Stop saying I haven't used it. It sounds like sour grapes. (And is bullshit)

No one is saying anything bad about the underlying architecture and performance. Stop bringing it up as an excuse for metro.

Why do people think it's okay for a start menu replacement to be full screen?
Why do people think it's okay for applications started in desktop mode to go into full screen metro mode?

I feel like a victim of a bad practical joke.

It's like someone delivered a brand new Lamborghini but replaced the wheel and pedals with a PS3 controller.
 

Ruoh

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Stop saying I haven't used it. It sounds like sour grapes. (And is bullshit)

No one is saying anything bad about the underlying architecture and performance. Stop bringing it up as an excuse for metro.

Why do people think it's okay for a start menu replacement to be full screen?
Why do people think it's okay for applications started in desktop mode to go into full screen metro mode?

I feel like a victim of a bad practical joke.

It's like someone delivered a brand new Lamborghini but replaced the wheel and pedals with a PS3 controller.

With your programming background, I don't see why you have such a huge problem with this.
 

heatlesssun

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Why do people think it's okay for a start menu replacement to be full screen?

Well the Start Menu is the only thing one can interact with while it is open. Change focus to something else and it closes. So really a modal dialog, just like the Start Screen. I know people say they like seeing other windows while the Start Menu is open but the practical benefit of this think limited as the main benefit in seeing other screens would before transcription into the Search box where copy and paste would be your friend.

Why do people think it's okay for applications started in desktop mode to go into full screen metro mode?

There isn't a desktop mode or Metro mode, applications are either Metro or desktop and that's the UI they run under.
 

daglesj

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I am constantly amazed that whilst IT folks are supposed to be able to work around issues and sort stuff out, a lot here cant see past their upturned bottom lips.

I'm almost imagining folks here bashing and rubbing a DVD of Windows 8 on their screens, shouting "IT WON'T INSTALL!!! IT WON'T GO IN!!DUMB STUPID WINDOWS 8!!"

The level of stubborn ignorance is amazing. Either that or IQ's dropped dramatically recently.
 

daglesj

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People are not buying as many desktops as they were because -

If they bought one in the past 5 years, chances are it will have a dual core, at least 2GB of ram and a 160GB+ HDD. For most people that's still all they need.

It's not like it was before the turn of the century when you needed to upgrade more often due to some new development or software. Plus desktops last longer than laptops and tablets. Keep it clean and feed it clean power it will run and run.

One other issue is that folks don't want to be relegated to the study or spare room to use the computer. So they buy a a laptop. I still get a lot of requests for laptops. I haven't yet had anyone ask me about tablets in any detail.

Most folks I know that have bought tablets fall into three camps -

1. Those that embrace and use them a lot.
2. Those that bought them but went back to a laptop/desktop as it wasn't all that.
3. Those that broke theirs after a few months and haven't bothered to get it fixed and gone back to their laptop.

I have seen more of the 2 and 3 types.
 

Veilrap

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I'm a professional my wife is not. We both like Windows 8. I don't see what the issues are.
 

CrimsonKnight13

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I only did this because every time I try to bring up real usability issues with Windows 8 I get back responses like "you're not used to it" or "you don't want to change". Honestly it's all bullshit meant to mask extremely bad usability decisions. I felt like I had to make my case by letting others make it for me.

The only way to force Microsoft's hand is to make the case against Windows 8 very clear.

You're definitely entitled to show how much you despise anything you choose but I don't agree that your'e going about it the right way. You've made this thread your personal crusade to slander Windows 8 for how horrible of an OS you think it is.

Yes it does. Remember vista?

Vista had a horrible time due to lack of driver & software support when there should have been complete backing by the big hardware manufacturers & software developers. Once the negativity about how horrible it was spread, it was hard to stop. The average consumer & business user had no idea why it was bad.

Windows 8 will fail on its own without people collecting negative reviews/comments ;)

You're assuming it will fail. I admit, it might, but I'm not holding my breath for every time someone says that it will.

I consider myself an optimist at the very least & I think that there will be more people liking this OS than they did with Vista.
 

AMD T-type

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Zero issues so far running Win 8, been gaming on it with zero problems, and I actually like some of the new features it has.

Sure I don't use metro all that much, but it doesn't get in the way at all.

People are comparing Win8 to ME or Vista, the only difference is 8 is actually usable out of the box.



edit: also props to the op who put so much effort into that troll of a first post
 

odoe

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No more flaming or personal attacks or infractions will be given out.
 
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You do realize that this video has been edited? When you watch the entire video his dad learns how to use Windows 8 fairly quickly after the initial roadblock. This video is completely worthless in proving your point. In fact, it proves mine.

Because Windows 95 through 7, OS X, Android, iOS Mobile, and Linux come with Tutorials.
/sarcasm

I've seen some crazy fanboy arguments in my day but this is ridiculous.

As a matter of fact, my Galaxy S does have tutorial....Also, you are using Linux as an example of something that DOESN'T need a tutorial? LOL. Unless you are a tech person you will have no clue how to get anything working in linux.

Because it keeps forcing me into it. The OS boots into Metro. If you open a PDF without first installing another PDF viewer it sends you straight to a Metro full screen app. What if you're writing a paper in Word and you need to reference a PDF? Viewing a PDF in 1920x1200 full screen resolution is a huge waste of space.

And in Windows 7 it would FORCE YOU to download a PDF Viewer. Oh the humanity!
 

devil22

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Again and again, with the false dichotomy of Mouse or Tablet UI. An interface can work well on both. This is why I frequently refer to click counts for common operations in my posts. Talking of the user getting frustrated because they boot to metro and can't get to the desktop makes no sense, because if you boot into Win 7 and are at the desktop, the only thing to really do is run an app, and you can do that from metro, which will open the app and put you on the desktop. If the user needs to be at the desktop for some other common reason, please tell us what it is instead of just saying they are going to be frustrated because they have to click the desktop icon to get there, just to be there apparently.

The OP is an example of selection bias, searching the internet for every bad thing somebody says about Windows 8, then acting like everyone hates windows 8 is just another fallacy. What would be more interesting, but still not entirely pertinent to the actual user experience and design philosophy, would be to post all articles from major and influential sites and count to see how many were positive vs. negative.
 

heatlesssun

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Again and again, with the false dichotomy of Mouse or Tablet UI. An interface can work well on both.

I just don't think a lot of people are getting this. You see a lot of people say "Metro looks good for a tablet but I won't touch it on a desktop." But the thing is that a lot of Windows devices are BOTH. Windows 8 isn't a desktop OR tablet OS, it is a desktop AND tablet OS. There is no desktop or tablet mode. Desktop apps run on the desktop and Metro apps run in the Metro UI. Most Metro apps work just fine with keyboards and mice and while there's not a lot of Metro apps to speak of today that's going to change quickly. Desktop apps run just as they do on Windows 7. The debate over Windows 8 as it relates to keyboard and mice and the desktop is at best over 5 to 10 percent of where a user spends time. And in general being in the Start Menu or Start Screen isn't productive time, that's spent the applications that run just the same.

As Metro apps come on line and there's more cool Windows 8 hardware and as the UI gets cleaned up and people accustomed to it this debate will become irrelevant much like the Office 2007 ribbon debate. To this day people hate the ribbon but most folks just adapted and moved one and are just as productive as ever, probably more so as Office has added some pretty solid enhancements about and beyond the ribbon.
 

DigitalisAkujin

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I added features removed to the main post.

Lot's of people seem to think I won't be using Windows 8. On the contrary the features under the hood that I've been looking forward to overpower my dislike of Metro so along with "StartIsBack" and some other 3rd party utilities I'll definitely be installing it on my daily.

That being said I don't necessarily think it's bad that Microsoft decided to go with a new Start Menu I just think that the choice they made was a bad one. There are dozens of other better ways to do it.

Making it full screen increases the amount of mouse movements required to do stuff in the new Start Menu such as browse personal files and open programs. It increases the time required to accomplish these tasks by double digit percentages. On the contrary any improvement to the start menu should have decreased the time it takes to perform these tasks. For example triggering the Start Menu with pure mouse movements requires moving mouse to the Upper Right then moving the mouse half way down the screen to "Start" and only then can you select an app. Granted hitting the Windows key takes you straight to it but then you have to find the program within the new Metro interface which isn't a list but is instead a series of blocks. The mouse movements become all over the place instead of simply going up and down an alphabetical and/or pinned list.

The reason I decided to start this thread was not because I want Windows 8 to succeed but because I want to shame Microsoft into recognizing it's bad decision. Double digit percentages of users shouldn't have to download third party apps just to use their OS the way they want. Instead of going in the direction of fixing that (like they have done with the multimonitor taskbar, thereby removing the need for Ultramon) they have instead decided to go in the opposite direction.

Even if 66% like the replacement that's not good enough. It has to be 90% to be worthy.

Furthermore even if I fix the situation on my personal installs that doesn't mean I won't have to deal with it in other capacities such as work or in education where I might not have the choice of being able to install a third party program to make my productivity increase.
 
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Cobalt35

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Ok, question for those who are saying Windows 8 is the greatest thing since ever...

I'm using it at home on my home PC because I need to learn it so I can support it for my job. On the "Metro" screen, how do you sort the non-metro apps by name? Even after removing things like "Uninstall" (uninstall what exactly? only way to find out was to run it), I still have a giant tangle of crap there and it takes me quite some time to find a given app I'm looking for.

Edit: And don't even get me started on "just sort it by dragging the app button to the place you want yourself" - Why can't I lock a given icon it in place? Every time I install something or remove something the icons move around, so I'm left hunting for my apps again.

Please, someone explain how this is the future?
 
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devil22

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DigitalisAkujin, first of all, your numbers are not scientific. Second, you don't have to use the Charms bar to launch the start screen, you can go to the lower (or upper) left and click. Mouse movement is only more if you have a lot of apps, but it would still probably be less overall effort than navigating the start menu. Clicking items in the start menu requires more precision, more often, and thus more concentration and effort, than swiping a mouse across the screen and clicking a large, graphical tile.

But launching apps is only one aspect, having lots of information sources in the form of live tiles, that are completely safe and have negligent resource impact, is also a great benefit for people like me, and that's all one click away.
 

devil22

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Ok, question for those who are saying Windows 8 is the greatest things since ever...

I'm using it at home on my home PC because I need to learn it so I can support it for my job. On the "Metro" screen, how do you sort the non-metro apps by name? Even after removing things like "Uninstall" (uninstall what exactly? only way to find out was to run it), I still have a giant tangle of crap there and it takes me quite some time to find a given app I'm looking for.

If you have ambiguous named apps on the start menu, I would probably unpin them and then you can right click in a blank spot in the start screen and click the 'all apps' button, where the apps are grouped by program name, so you can select which apps you want pinned and give them more appropriate names or put them in their own group on the start screen (the minus button in the bottom right will zoom out so you can name and move the groups.)
 

Cobalt35

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If you have ambiguous named apps on the start menu, I would probably unpin them and then you can right click in a blank spot in the start screen and click the 'all apps' button, where the apps are grouped by program name, so you can select which apps you want pinned and give them more appropriate names or put them in their own group on the start screen (the minus button in the bottom right will zoom out so you can name and move the groups.)
I said in my quote that I removed them. I still have a wall of unsorted icons and no way that I can see to sort them except to drag each one manually into place... only to have them move again every time I install or uninstall something.
 

devil22

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I said in my quote that I removed them. I still have a wall of unsorted icons and no way that I can see to sort them except to drag each one manually into place... only to have them move again every time I install or uninstall something.

Whoops, I misread your post. I thought you said it was filled with crap like 'uninstall'. Well what I said still applies, you wouldn't run an ambiguous named app, you'd unpin it and run it from 'all apps'. How many apps do you have that dragging them around is tortuous, I would imagine I could organize my 20 or so apps in less time than it took you to write those posts, not to be a smart ass but logically it's true. And ideally you'd organize the app tiles after each install, takes seconds really. You shouldn't have to move the same ones again when you install something new, as newly installed apps get appended to the end of the list, so you just need to move the newly installed app tiles you want into whatever group they belong and then unpin the useless stuff (like uninstallers).
 

Cobalt35

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Ok, another question I will be asked...

On this image I have my office icons by themselves:

QcwuW.png


Why can't I make them all below each other in a 1x4 configuration, instead of being forced to use a 2x2 configuration?

Why can't I put them at the bottom of the screen instead of at the top?

Why can't I put some at the top of the screen and some at the bottom of the screen?

Edit: Also, why are they so fucking huge?

There is nowhere that I can see to alter any of the properties of the Metro screen... any help with this would be very much appreciated.
 

devil22

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The technical answer is probably due to trade offs between code complexity, bugs, development, testing and actual benefit to the user. Some people really like having a massive number of options, I generally prefer simplicity as it's generally more stable and bug free. As long as you can launch the apps, and they appear fairly orderly, I would never be concerned with such a thing as designer arrangements of the tiles. Would you hypothetically trade those features for another say 20 bugs, most of which never manifest to the user, but some do? I wouldn't..
 

Cobalt35

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So what you're actually saying is that Microsoft didn't have the skill or programming ability to allow you to put icons where you want, without massive bugs? Even Windows 3.1 could do that, to some degree.
 

devil22

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So what you're actually saying is that Microsoft didn't have the skill or programming ability to allow you to put icons where you want, without massive bugs? Even Windows 3.1 could do that, to some degree.

Ok, fine let's go there. So are you saying Windows 3.1 didn't have bugs related to that? Just because you didn't experience them, doesn't mean everyone didn't. Also, Win 8 has to run on a lot more hardware configs, and users are a different caliber than they were in the 90s, they expect things to work, all the time and don't tolerate bugs as much. And what does 'massive bug' mean, because I certainly didn't say anything of their magnitude. It may not be BSOD bugs, but if the interface glitches on device X, Y and Z only, some of the people who use those devices are going to go on a rampage and trash the whole OS, put up youtube videos mocking it, talk about their glorious iPad which doesn't do that, etc. And of course, it's not a certainty there will be bugs, but there's a possibility. "MS" does not do this, coders from the random population that MS hires do this work, and being people like everyone else, they make mistakes, so it is a consideration. Then there's the code bloat issue, for minimum benefit, it seems an unworthy addition, imo. Certainly if MS had found that people wanted this in their usability studies, they would have added it since it would have gotten them more money, wouldn't you think? Also MS does not have resources to sit here and answer every possible criticism, so all I can do is hypothesize and speculate on why things are this way, maybe MS had totally different reasons, I don't know, so be careful not to hold MS accountable for what I say about this.
 

Cobalt35

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Ok, fine let's go there. So are you saying Windows 3.1 didn't have bugs related to that? Just because you didn't experience them, doesn't mean everyone didn't. Also, Win 8 has to run on a lot more hardware configs, and users are a different caliber than they were in the 90s, they expect things to work, all the time and don't tolerate bugs as much. And what does 'massive bug' mean, because I certainly didn't say anything of their magnitude. It may not be BSOD bugs, but if the interface glitches on device X, Y and Z only, some of the people who use those devices are going to go on a rampage and trash the whole OS, put up youtube videos mocking it, talk about their glorious iPad which doesn't do that, etc. And of course, it's not a certainty there will be bugs, but there's a possibility. "MS" does not do this, coders from the random population that MS hires do this work, and being people like everyone else, they make mistakes, so it is a consideration. Then there's the code bloat issue, for minimum benefit, it seems an unworthy addition, imo. Certainly if MS had found that people wanted this in their usability studies, they would have added it since it would have gotten them more money, wouldn't you think?
I'm sorry but no, I wouldn't think. They didn't listen to the people who said they wanted to have a normal start menu on their non-touchscreen desktop PCs. Also, saying that you can't have a customisable Metro screen because of potential bugs is beyond ludicrous.

I'm a huge supporter of Microsoft... I make my living off supporting their products, for the most part. IMO in this case they got it 100% wrong. IMO Ballmer has said that this is the way it will be and screw everyone who thinks differently. That unwillingness to listen to others is a hallmark of his career and will hopefully be his downfall with Windows 8.

For many people, being able to customise your desktop to how they want it to be is crucial to them. The icon thing may not be a big deal to some people, but trust me, it will be a nightmare for me for some of my customers who do switch to Windows 8. The end result will be that many of them will go back to Windows 7. It will also result in others not even bothering to switch to 8.
 

Cobalt35

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So sad that my Android Phone and Tablet home screen is way more customizable than Metro Start. :(
Exactly... Apple OSX can do it, Android can do it, Linux can do it, FreeBSD can do it... hell, even iOS can do it more than Windows 8 can.

Unless Microsoft has Farmer Brown and his good wife Betty doing their programming, the only reason Windows 8 can't do it is because it's a tablet OS that also runs on a desktop. Microsoft is trying to out-Apple Apple and IMO they've failed miserably... even Apple has OSX and iOS.
 

Tsumi

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Exactly... Apple OSX can do it, Android can do it, Linux can do it, FreeBSD can do it... hell, even iOS can do it more than Windows 8 can.

Unless Microsoft has Farmer Brown and his good wife Betty doing their programming, the only reason Windows 8 can't do it is because it's a tablet OS that also runs on a desktop. Microsoft is trying to out-Apple Apple and IMO they've failed miserably... even Apple has OSX and iOS.

If you have used Windows Phone 7, the tile arrangement is similar as to what is seen in Windows 8. You can't put a tile three blanck spaces below the bottom tile, it automatically gets moved to be under the blank tile.

IMO they're trying to make something unique to differentiate them from the competition. Following the same thing that's always done makes it seem just like everything else, and why should someone pick that over everything else? Whether or not this different is good or bad is really up to people's subjective tastes.

Also.. you mean iOS can do more in terms of icon arrangement on the start screen vs Windows 8. However, Windows 8 can be scrolled with a mouse wheel, and you can zoom out and select the group you want. You can also give labels to each group to find them easier. You are not stuck to 12 icons a page/group, you can create the group as arbitrarily big or small as you want.
 
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I agree they should provide more customization - which I think they will in future updates. HOWEVER - if you want to be productive you would be a complete idiot to not just use the search feature. It is a million times better than looking through an alphabetical list of applications. It was better in Windows 7 than looking through the start menu, and it is better in Windows 8 than looking through the start screen.
 

DigitalisAkujin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
178
I agree they should provide more customization - which I think they will in future updates. HOWEVER - if you want to be productive you would be a complete idiot to not just use the search feature. It is a million times better than looking through an alphabetical list of applications. It was better in Windows 7 than looking through the start menu, and it is better in Windows 8 than looking through the start screen.

Start menu has a built in search. It's the same thing. But you'd only use that if you didn't already have something pinned there.
 
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