Windows 8 - Bad for both Noobs and Power Users - The Proof

DigitalisAkujin

Limp Gawd
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For years now I've been looking forward to the underlying technology in Windows 8. But after following all the beta releases and hoping Microsoft would fix the user interface I have been bitterly disappointed. This is shaping up to be another Vista.

Reviews
http://techgage.com/article/windows_8_review_-_part_one_the_things_i_hate/1
“To kill an app, your best solution is to simply hit Alt + F4. At its heart, it's still an application. Where killing apps may become necessary is when you use them to view documents. I had tried to delete a PDF the other day, for example, but couldn't, because it was still open inside of Microsoft's PDF reader. Once I went back to it, and hit Alt + F4, it took about 60 seconds before the file was totally freed so that I could delete it.”

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/technology/personaltech/microsofts-windows-revamped-and-split-in-2.html?_r=2&
“I mean the two different worlds within Windows 8 alone, one designed primarily for touch screens, the other for mouse and keyboard. Individually, they are excellent — but you can’t use them individually. Microsoft has combined them into a superimposed, muddled mishmash called Windows 8, which goes on sale Friday at prices ranging from $15 to $40, depending on the offer and version. “

Harvard Business School
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/7124.html
“Open up a PDF in the native viewer and you have to 'intuitively' know to press ctrl + p to print the file. I can't tell you how many times I've sat there getting angry trying to figure out how to get something done. I'm not an idiot when it comes to computers, but this OS made me feel like one."
"Your software should not make anyone feel like an idiot," Kanter advises.”

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-has-big-problem-with-windows-8-2012-10

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/23/gartner_windows_8_review/

http://blog.laptopmag.com/usability-expert-windows-8-on-pcs-is-confusing-a-cognitive-burden

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-rettinger/windows-8-isnt-going-to-s_b_1828082.html

http://betanews.com/2012/06/17/windows-8-is-like-a-bad-blind-date/
“You must understand: I want to like Windows 8, and it's another reason my real assessment is so long coming. I'd like to see Microsoft give Apple some real competition on tablets”

http://blogs.gartner.com/gunnar-berger/windows-8-part-3-as-seen-through-the-eyes-of-a-desktop-user/
“I already was struggling using Windows 8 on a local desktop, I gave up using it on a remote desktop, and that was very disappointing considering I’m very excited for the RemoteFX features in Windows 8.”

http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/forget-windows-8-give-us-windows-78-205408

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2013011/why-you-shouldn-t-upgrade-to-windows-8.html
“Does anyone at Microsoft understand that Windows is called Windows because it has windows? “

“Microsoft totally missed the boat here. We don’t need a confusing mix of Desktop and IFKaM applications. We need an OS that can change its user interface when we change our hardware.”

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/26/civilians_test_windows_8/

http://smarthouse.com.au/Comment/C6B4S4V3
“Windows 8 More Desperation Than Innovation”

http://www.news.com.au/technology/r...tional-computers/story-e6frfro0-1226503619649
“Are these benefits worth the pain of relearning how to use your computer?
If you're a tinkerer or if you’re thinking of buying one of the new Microsoft Surface tablets or Windows 8 phones, the answer is probably yes.
But for the average household with a family PC and a laptop or two, I recommend sticking with Windows 7.”


Videos
Chris Pirillo on streets showing windows 8 to regular people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cor-lvXsgx0&feature=plcp

Chris Pirillo’s Dad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v4boTbv9_nU


Community Response
http://www.overclock.net/t/1314893/poll-how-many-of-you-have-tried-windows-8
“I really feel like MS made a mistake by not adding in the option to disable Metro and re-enable Aero glass. Nobody would complain if those things were included out of the box.”
“But because of Metro, our company will be "passing" Windows 8 entirely and staying with Windows 7. It's not that I can't "figure out" how to work in Windows 8, I just refuse to be dictated to by a software company (especially since our company makes software and I hear the same complaints and have to deal with customers too) on HOW I am supposed to do my day to day tasks. Software should conform to the user, NOT the user conform to the software.”

Features Removed (source)
● Start Menu.
● Built-in (Microsoft provided) DVD playback in Windows Media Player will not be available on the Windows 8 platform, even with addition of the Media Center Pack.
● Device Manager no longer shows Non-Plug and Play Drivers or hidden devices. The "Devmgr_Show_NonPresent_Devices=1' environment variable has no effect: Image
● Applications can no longer programmatically configure, change or query file associations or set themselves during installation as the default for a file type or protocol!
● Many commands are missing on the Ribbon which were there on Explorer command bar like Compatibility Files, View Remote Printers etc and others for special folders and namespace extensions. They just forgot to add these to these commands!
● The "Compatibility" tab for an application's properties no longer includes 'Windows 2000' and 'Windows NT 4.0' modes. You will be forced to use Application Compatibility Toolkit to set these OS modes.
● The menu bar and command bar (toolbar) in Windows Explorer have been removed and replaced with the Ribbon interface. Keyboard usability IMHO of the Ribbon is poor because in a menu, the first letter of any menu command or Alt+keyboard combination key is easier to read sequentially as it is placed in a row either horizontally or vertically. Mouse usability of the Ribbon and discoverability of commands is also poor, because unlike in a menu, where you can switch from one menu to another without clicking again, the Ribbon tabs do not activate unless you click again. The File menu also showed context menu commands but the File button on the Ribbon does not show these. Commands in the menu can be static (always available) irrespective of the location you are at in Explorer or they can be dynamic like the File menu. In contrast, commands on the Ribbon are all contextual meaning you have to navigate to a certain location to use that Ribbon command. The Ribbon is not customizable, only the Quick Access Toolbar is customizable but its usability is poor because it uses tiny 16 x 16 icons! (So much for a touch-friendly OS).
● The ability to boot directly to the desktop and not load the Metro components in memory is not there. Items in various startup locations (Registry, startup folder etc) are all loaded with a delay of few seconds with no way to load them instantly.
● The Lock screen is the place where you can now display custom background instead of the Logon screen, but unlike the Logon screen, there seems to be no way to programmatically change or cycle through a group of images for the Lock screen background. It must be set manually by the user from PC settings on the Start screen.
● Running Internet Explorer purely in 64-bit mode is not possible unless Enhanced Protected Mode is enabled which disables all addons not compatible with EPM. Otherwise, 64-bit IE10 opens 32-bit tabs.
● Search option to use natural language search has been removed.
● File operations like Rename, Delete can no longer be undone for UAC-protected locations
● Security Essentials settings for configuring default actions or real-time protection have been removed. (Security Essentials is now built-in as Windows Defender)
● In a dual boot scenario, the ability to directly boot into another OS besides Windows 8 is slowed down because the new Windows 8 boot shell/loader reboots to load the other operating system.
● Windows Update settings for showing notifications and allowing all users to install updates have been removed. Windows Update no longer notifies with a balloon notification that there are new updates available.
● Sound events for 'Exit Windows', 'Windows Logon' and 'Windows Logoff' are removed
● People Near Me P2P API is removed
● WinHelp has been completely discontinued. No download will be available.
● MSConfig's Startup tab has been killed and replaced by the Task Manager's Startup tab that doesn't have the 'Location' column which was useful for example to know if the process started from HKCU or HKLM.
● Previous Versions for Shadow Copies is removed. The half-baked replacement is the File History feature which is only for certain file types (documents, music, videos and pictures) in Libraries, desktop and browser favorites. Previous Versions worked for any generic file type in any folder. File History does not even support EFS-encrypted files! File History is supposed to replace both "Previous Versions for Shadow Copies" as well as "Windows Backup and Restore" and it doesn't do 100% of either of the features it replaces!
● Advanced Appearance settings which let you adjust colors, sizes and fonts are removed
● Explorer status bar removes the ability to show important details. It is now a private undocumented control (DirectUI) so it also doesn't allow Explorer addons like Classic Shell to show information like free disk space, total size of items without selection, computer zone, infotip information as it could on a standard status bar control.
● Explorer: Ability to enable both Details pane and Preview pane simultaneously in Explorer for display of file metadata as well as preview, or, Details pane to be always shown and only the Preview pane toggled is gone
● Flip 3D is gone
● Chkdsk when run at startup does not display any information about file system repairs besides % complete. This screen with scanning and correction details is gone when Chkdsk runs at startup and replaced by just a % complete.
● Pen, Ink and Touch Input Desktop features, including the The Tablet Input Panel (TIP) are no longer included. Some buttons ('num', 'sym' and 'web) are removed from the Handwriting input panel and UI changes to it require more clicks for example to switch from handwriting to keyboard, or access the editing commands (join, split, delete). It is now touch-friendly but no longer stylus-friendly. Desktop tablet features are replaced by a "simplified" touch keyboard.
● Network Map feature and some network profile management UI (setting a network as Private, Public, customizing the network name and icon etc) from Network and Sharing Center is missing
● Memory addresses and other technical information has been removed from the Windows 8 bug check screen (BSOD)
● The new Task Manager is missing many features of the old one: http://social.techne...c8-c39833aff90e
● View Available Networks (VAN) UI has been crippled with access to the most important dialog: the Network's Status window removed. The VAN UI now covers the notification area icons unnecessarily and the Metro look is out of place on the Aero desktop.
● The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type
● The Open With dialog breaks the NoInternetOpenWith and NoFileAssociate Group Policies and browsing for a program with the redesigned Open With dialog requires three clicks instead of just one.
● The Windows Error Reporting dialog for reporting/debugging crashes does not save the state of "View details"
● Windows CardSpace is not installed even after installing .NET 3.0/3.5
● The keyboard shortcut for Windows Mobility Center has been removed. Previously, Win+X brought it up, now it brings up the power user context menu.
● Some remoting apps that use mirror drivers or some features of mirror drivers for remoting scenarios, accessibility, or desktop duplication may no longer be supported due to the changes required to be made to Desktop Window Manager.
● Some Audio Compression Manager (ACM) components are broken resulting in Sound Recorder being unable to do format conversion.
● Subsystem for UNIX-based applications is completely removed​

Source: http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/156585-features-and-options-removed-in-windows-8/
 
Last edited:

CrimsonKnight13

Lord Stabington of [H]ard|Fortress
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Collecting everything everyone says that's bad about Windows 8 (note: opinions) doesn't make proof that its going to fail & be strongly hated.

You may have done you homework but that doesn't mean you're doing a favor for anyone here.
 

DigitalisAkujin

Limp Gawd
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Collecting everything everyone says that's bad about Windows 8 (note: opinions) doesn't make proof that its going to fail & be strongly hated.

You may have done you homework but that doesn't mean you're doing a favor for anyone here.

I only did this because every time I try to bring up real usability issues with Windows 8 I get back responses like "you're not used to it" or "you don't want to change". Honestly it's all bullshit meant to mask extremely bad usability decisions. I felt like I had to make my case by letting others make it for me.

The only way to force Microsoft's hand is to make the case against Windows 8 very clear.
 

Tsumi

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Videos are biased and are portrayed in such a way to make the user not like Windows 8. Windows 8 is meant to be used after a short tutorial.

There's more than one way of printing. Bring up the charms bar, and select devices. That's the universal way of printing from any Metro app. Still not completely intuitive, but not the ctrl + p that needs to be done. Also, the devices bar does a lot more than printing.

Also, it's not that hard to see the running apps. Dragging the window to the bottom will close the app, or you can right-click the top left corner, which gives you options to close, snap left, or snap right.

There's more of a learning curve with Windows 8, especially in the new environment. It's new, so it's not perfect. It's not aimed for businesses to upgrade to, because Microsoft knows they're just moving to Windows 7, and will be sticking to Windows 7 until EOL like they did with XP.

This is a much better and comprehensive reviews about its improvements and shortcomings.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/windows-reimagined-a-review-of-windows-8/

And no, there are no usability issues on the desktop. Metro doesn't get in the way. The only time I see it getting in the way is if you heavily relied on the jumplists on the old start menu, because those are no longer there on the Start Screen.
 

DigitalisAkujin

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Videos are biased and are portrayed in such a way to make the user not like Windows 8. Windows 8 is meant to be used after a short tutorial.
Because Windows 95 through 7, OS X, Android, iOS Mobile, and Linux come with Tutorials.
/sarcasm

There's more than one way of printing. Bring up the charms bar, and select devices. That's the universal way of printing from any Metro app. Still not completely intuitive, but not the ctrl + p that needs to be done. Also, the devices bar does a lot more than printing.
Excuses followed by admitting that it's not intuitive.

Also, it's not that hard to see the running apps. Dragging the window to the bottom will close the app, or you can right-click the top left corner, which gives you options to close, snap left, or snap right.
This is not obvious in any way. If a power user has to Google for this a newbie will have no idea at all where to start. I've pretty much resorted to ending Metro apps through Task Manager.

There's more of a learning curve with Windows 8, especially in the new environment. It's new, so it's not perfect.
Operating systems should have minimal learning curves if any.


It's not aimed for businesses to upgrade to, because Microsoft knows they're just moving to Windows 7, and will be sticking to Windows 7 until EOL like they did with XP.
That's why Windows Server 2012 uses Metro and why Microsoft is promoting Windows 8 to corporations.
/sarcasm



And no, there are no usability issues on the desktop.
That's why no one is complaining.
/sarcasm



Metro doesn't get in the way.
Because it doesn't decide to full screen everything.

*Opens a PDF to reference while working on a Word Document* "Where's my word document?"

Yup, doesn't get in the way at all.... :rolleyes:


I've seen some crazy fanboy arguments in my day but this is ridiculous.
 

Tsumi

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Twisting my words. Right. Okay, go continue on your hate train rant, I'm sure you'll have someone in some corner of the world that will listen to your one-sided views.
 

Globox

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all i see is
S5zt1.gif
 

Neb

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Twisting my words. Right. Okay, go continue on your hate train rant, I'm sure you'll have someone in some corner of the world that will listen to your one-sided views.

Yeah...replying to almost every point with excessive sarcasm is not a very good way to go about having a discussion.
 

MrCrispy

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We've gone over this before in other threads. Any valid complaint about usability in Win 8 is going to be answered with -

'you can do X instead'
'its not that hard, I'm used to it'
'MS had no option but to do this'
 

MrCrispy

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Twisting my words. Right. Okay, go continue on your hate train rant, I'm sure you'll have someone in some corner of the world that will listen to your one-sided views.

Right, because his detailed complaints about usability are 'one sided', and not at all shared by millions of others.
 

Nielo TM

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It is funny to see old people trying to use a computer. My mom can't even use the standard desktop.
 

Tsumi

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You want me to put out real arguments then? I've been doing this for a long time, and I get tired of it. And before you get started, no, I do not think Windows 8 is perfect. In fact, that Ars Technica article (which I bet none of you bothered to read) reflects my views a lot. There are things that are better, and there are things that need to be improved. It's not going to be perfect upon first release, especially this is the first time something like this was implemented.

For the printers thing, I said it's not completely intuitive, but not to the point of control + p unintuitive. The devices and share options on the charms bar is what will be used to link all Metro apps to the rest of the computer. Microsoft has made it so that each Metro app is completely isolated from the rest of the system. Yes, there should be a tutorial that points this out.

As far as I know, Windows XP during installation has a screen that points out all the features of the operating system. OEMs have always included an installation tutorial. Android as far as I know has a tutorial on first boot (using Cyanogenmod 10).

It took me literally 30 seconds to figure out how to close a Metro app. When I hit the Windows key to get to the Start Screen, I noticed right away that the app was still running in the app drawer. Switching to the app, and dragging it around, it doesn't take that long to figure out that dragging it to the bottom closed it.

If you don't want a learning curve in Windows 8, stick to the desktop environment. Why the hell are you using Metro apps on a desktop? The only ones I find useful are Mail and Calendar (for the notifications) and weather (quicker to get to then going through the web browser). Everything else uses the regular desktop programs. And the Mail app sucks, there's no advanced options for tagging as spam and things like that at the moment.

They have to put out new products, and their promoting Windows 8 on tablets to corporations. There's a fair number of people who will be buying Windows 8 tablets for work, simply because it fits their usage scenarios.

Again, the full screen thing. It's due to the fact that the default apps are the Metro ones, and there should be an option to change it to desktop programs upon first installation. However, when you install Adobe Reader, Windows 8 does give you the option to change the default PDF program to Adobe Reader from the default Metro app. Adobe Reader does not come natively with any Windows installation, so in that sense it makes sense that the first initial default app for PDFs is the Metro viewer. However, things like Music and Videos should have an option.
 

DigitalisAkujin

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It took me literally 30 seconds to figure out how to close a Metro app. When I hit the Windows key to get to the Start Screen, I noticed right away that the app was still running in the app drawer. Switching to the app, and dragging it around, it doesn't take that long to figure out that dragging it to the bottom closed it.

You must be the only one here with a touch screen.

If you don't want a learning curve in Windows 8, stick to the desktop environment. Why the hell are you using Metro apps on a desktop?

Because it keeps forcing me into it. The OS boots into Metro. If you open a PDF without first installing another PDF viewer it sends you straight to a Metro full screen app. What if you're writing a paper in Word and you need to reference a PDF? Viewing a PDF in 1920x1200 full screen resolution is a huge waste of space.


Windows 8 does give you the option to change the default PDF program to Adobe Reader from the default Metro app.

I'm sure it does except the fact that you ask a user to go to desktop mode to browse files and when they click on one you send them back to Metro.

Why the hell are you using Metro apps on a desktop? The only ones I find useful are Mail and Calendar (for the notifications) and weather (quicker to get to then going through the web browser).
I don't want to. It keeps forcing me. Hence the usability problems. Why the hell would you want your email, calendar, or weather to be full screen? Do you multitask? Ever? Some of us have to do real work. I code for a living. I'm constantly replying to emails, having to reference dates, and occasionally when I do check the weather I only need to know some basic quick information. I already have a tablet. It's called a Nexus 7. I don't wanna turn my 24 inch monitor into one.
 

zaxour

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“To kill an app, your best solution is to simply hit Alt + F4. At its heart, it's still an application. Where killing apps may become necessary is when you use them to view documents. I had tried to delete a PDF the other day, for example, but couldn't, because it was still open inside of Microsoft's PDF reader. Once I went back to it, and hit Alt + F4, it took about 60 seconds before the file was totally freed so that I could delete it.”
Did anyone else figure out that you can just mouse to the upper right corner, move down, and use -middle- click to close Metro apps?
 

daglesj

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Well I took my freshly built Windows 8 laptop to a small business network meeting tonight and gave a little demo of 8 and showed them how it worked.

Of the 15 or so that were there (there are folks ranging in age from early 20's to late 50's) they all really liked it. Loved the super fast boot and and the Modern app page. They didnt seem to think not having a Start button was too much of an issue. They were mainly impressed with how fast it was, especially as I was showing it on a 2006 vintage laptop.

Had a few ask me to do some upgrades for them.

I think if Windows 8 is given a little demo first it's fine. Was interesting to see when I installed 8 it gave a little demo of the corners.
 

Tsumi

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You must be the only one here with a touch screen.



Because it keeps forcing me into it. The OS boots into Metro. If you open a PDF without first installing another PDF viewer it sends you straight to a Metro full screen app. What if you're writing a paper in Word and you need to reference a PDF? Viewing a PDF in 1920x1200 full screen resolution is a huge waste of space.




I'm sure it does except the fact that you ask a user to go to desktop mode to browse files and when they click on one you send them back to Metro.


I don't want to. It keeps forcing me. Hence the usability problems. Why the hell would you want your email, calendar, or weather to be full screen? Do you multitask? Ever? Some of us have to do real work. I code for a living. I'm constantly replying to emails, having to reference dates, and occasionally when I do check the weather I only need to know some basic quick information. I already have a tablet. It's called a Nexus 7. I don't wanna turn my 24 inch monitor into one.

I'm using an eyefinity desktop with 3 cheap $100 23" screens. I don't have a touchscreen. I have absolutely no problems with closing Metro apps.

Well of course not installing a second PDF viewer would send you straight into Metro. What other PDF viewers are included on a stock Windows installation? Let me tell you now, NONE. Windows 7 does not have the ability to natively open a PDF file, you have to download Adobe Reader anyways. Your argument is nonsensical.

OS boot in to metro? Simple remedy, I open Firefox first thing when I turn on my computer. Instead of clicking the taskbar shortcut, I just click on the Firefox icon right when I first boot, and it sends me straight to the desktop. No extra clicks or fuss.

I do real work on my computer. Like I said, I use Mail and Calendar purely for the notifications. I use weather for a quick check, and instantly switch out of it. I use it daily, and it DOES NOT force me into Metro once I have changed the default apps. Like I said, this is one of the biggest problems with Windows 8, the fact that you cannot change the default apps during installation, and can only change it after getting into Windows or when opening a file.
 

Globox

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looks like i'm buying a few extra windows 7 licenses or switching to linux
 

MrCrispy

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His argument is perfectly sound. MS wants us to use ModernUI apps more and more, WinRT is the only new API for developers. The built in apps - Mail, Photos, Music are the defaults. Most people stick with defaults.

Win 7 - open an mp3/picture and you see WMP/Picture Viewer or WLPG open and you also see where you came from as the previous windows is in the background, the taskbar is visible, and you can easily switch back and forth.

Win 8 - a fullscreen app with tons of wasted space now takes over your screen. No taskbar, no close/minimize buttons. Just like a bloody tablet. User hits backspace/Esc in frustration, nothing happens. If they learn the Win 8 paradigms, which are confusing and provide no benefit on a desktop at all, they then try hitting Win, which takes them back to the Start Screen, or switches to a Metro app - again confusing. Or they can play 'hunt the corner' with their mouse, which is 10x harder with multiple monitors.

Yes, I can see how very intuitive and useful all this is on a desktop. The simple fact is there is absolutely no reason to force ModernUI apps to be fullscreen except MS wants everything to look and work like a tablet.
 

Tsumi

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Right, so don't bother reading my points at all, and only read what you want to read.
 

Domingo

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The Win 8 argument forever comes down to "I like things the way they are" vs. "Take the time to learn this new way."
It's still just an OS running (more or less) the same programs. Seems like personal preference to me.
 

Butter

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There's always going to be this discussion, but this is a segway OS if anything. They've done a lot of under hood changes to make the OS speedier. I've been testing Win 8 for a while and I feel it is a good step in the right direction, with minor setbacks. It's strongest point is Multitasking and I feel this will be strong in business/education environments eventually.
 

Nielo TM

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Tablets, notebooks and touch-enabled all-in-one desktops are selling far more than standard desktops. Continuing the traditional desktop format is suicide

idc_changing_forecast.png


"IDC, for example, makes regular forecasts for how the PC market will pan out. It also puts out tablet forecasts. I've combined and compared forecasts it made in June 2011, September 2011 and March 2012 where it predicts how emerging (essentially, south-east Asia and South America) and mature (essentially North America and Europe) markets will do in sales of desktops and laptops."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/25/tablet-pc-market-analysis
 

DigitalisAkujin

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Tablets, notebooks and touch-enabled all-in-one desktops are selling far more than standard desktops. Continuing the traditional desktop format is suicide

idc_changing_forecast.png


"IDC, for example, makes regular forecasts for how the PC market will pan out. It also puts out tablet forecasts. I've combined and compared forecasts it made in June 2011, September 2011 and March 2012 where it predicts how emerging (essentially, south-east Asia and South America) and mature (essentially North America and Europe) markets will do in sales of desktops and laptops."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/25/tablet-pc-market-analysis

This post implies that people don't buy desktops anymore which is just plain not true. What you're seeing is an emergence of a new market in the tablet / smartphone sphere which will eventually saturate just like the desktop market. At which point manufacturers will run back to the desktop where the margins are way higher.
 

daglesj

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Whats needed are games that make it worthwhile buying a desktop again.
 

Ruoh

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OP is bitter. I've not had enough time with anything other then the RC1 to form a decision yet. It doesn't look like he's used it either... so I don't know why he's bothering to post this until he has.
 

E^vol

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OP is bitter. I've not had enough time with anything other then the RC1 to form a decision yet. It doesn't look like he's used it either... so I don't know why he's bothering to post this until he has.

It's simple, the OP hasn't used Win8. If he had used Win8, he would know that it's easy to use, faster than Win7 was and Metro really doesn't get in the way at all. Just stay with the desktop environment if you don't have a use for Metro.

I will not be returning to Win7, as I'm enjoying the benefits that Win8 brings to the table.
 

Nielo TM

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This post implies that people don't buy desktops anymore which is just plain not true.

No it does not.

What you're seeing is an emergence of a new market in the tablet / smartphone sphere which will eventually saturate just like the desktop market. At which point manufacturers will run back to the desktop where the margins are way higher.

That makes no sense.
 

LstBrunnenG

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6,677
I have a feeling that despite what either side says in this thread, Win8 will be remembered like Vista.

Vista was a very capable OS that brought real improvements over XP. Some bad initial experiences with drivers and with older hardware gave it bad word-of-mouth that stuck with it like a cloud for its lifespan. Nobody's opinion, informed or otherwise, kept people like me from using it to great effect.

Then Windows 7 came along with relatively minor improvements and refinements, and the collective cry was "FINALLY! So much better!" It was a love story for all the people who had stuck with XP. I couldn't help but observe that with exasperation.

So just wait - Windows 9 will follow quickly on the heels of Windows 8. It will have some relatively minor usability improvements, but still have Metro. Yet all the people making excuses about why they can hate Win8 while never having used it will embrace Win9 it like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Won't stop me from enjoying Win8, especially at this price.
 

odditory

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
6,482
Metro forced onto desktop PC's is the equivalent of removing finger touch from tablets and smartphones and replacing with stylus-only operation.

And yet trololol's would still be saying "you just aren't used to it yet" and "you're a hater if you don't see that stylus is the way to go, this is about survival now for Microsoft"
 

Tsumi

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
13,505
Metro forced onto desktop PC's is the equivalent of removing finger touch from tablets and smartphones and replacing with stylus-only operation.

And yet trololol's would still be saying "you just aren't used to it yet" and "you're a hater if you don't see that stylus is the way to go, this is about survival now for Microsoft"

HAVE YOU ACTUALLY USED IT?

Don't go around spouting things like that until you have.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
Metro forced onto desktop PC's is the equivalent of removing finger touch from tablets and smartphones and replacing with stylus-only operation.

And yet trololol's would still be saying "you just aren't used to it yet" and "you're a hater if you don't see that stylus is the way to go, this is about survival now for Microsoft"

I can appreciate that some people don't like the new UI, few Windows 8 proponents have said it's perfect and we've pointed plenty of issues. But the idea that this UI doesn't work well with keyboards and mice to people who use it just as easily as they use Windows 7 is pretty hard to take, considering well, that many like myself are using it just fine.

A good deal of the blow back over this has nothing to do with the usability of the UI but over other concerns. Dislike of touch and tablets and app stores and just the change itself is a much a driver of the consternation, probably more so, than issues with the UI. That's just how these things work.

At any rate I can't tell anyone that it does work anymore than anyone can tell me after a year of constant use across keyboards, mice, pens and touch with really no issues on the desktop that it doesn't work with traditional input.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
This post implies that people don't buy desktops anymore which is just plain not true. What you're seeing is an emergence of a new market in the tablet / smartphone sphere which will eventually saturate just like the desktop market. At which point manufacturers will run back to the desktop where the margins are way higher.

They aren't buying more desktops, they are buying fewer of them and the projections are that this will soon happen to laptops. Windows 8 opponents certainly tend to ignore what virtually everyone looking at the computing market is saying and same time accuses Microsoft of not listening. I find that very strange.
 

MrCrispy

2[H]4U
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
3,950
Regardless of pc sales slowing down, total pc sales will still be higher than touch devices. And lets not ignore the hundreds of millions of consumer pc's which don't have and will never have any touch capability. Is Win 8 not meant for these people? How is their life going to be more productive? You can say Win 8 boots faster and they may find WinRT apps useful, but then don't say the learning curve of Win 8 is easy or that it actually offers any usability benefits. Learning how to use a new UI just for the sake of learning helps no one.
 

Tsumi

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
13,505
Regardless of pc sales slowing down, total pc sales will still be higher than touch devices. And lets not ignore the hundreds of millions of consumer pc's which don't have and will never have any touch capability. Is Win 8 not meant for these people? How is their life going to be more productive? You can say Win 8 boots faster and they may find WinRT apps useful, but then don't say the learning curve of Win 8 is easy or that it actually offers any usability benefits. Learning how to use a new UI just for the sake of learning helps no one.

Are you sure about that? More and more people are going 3-5 years or longer between PC upgrade cycles, while smartphones is as little as 1 year, and typically 2 years (the usual mobile contract length). More and more people are also forgoing desktop upgrades in favor of laptops, tablets, and smartphones.

Also, WINDOWS 8 WORKS PERFECTLY FINE WITH A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD. Productivity probably won't increase, but it won't decrease either besides in a few rare scenarios.
 
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