Windows 7 Will Be The New XP

[techie81]

Seems like we have discussed this before? I mean don't get me wrong, at first I was pissed about the lack of the ditional start button. Now, I just boot straight to the desktop. I admittedly don't even miss it. I am all for choice though and I think that is what MS really botched with windows 8.

 

[heatlesssun]

...on the flip side, I wish MS would finally get rid of the damned Ribbon so I can finally upgrade from Office 2003. @#$% the Ribbon.

As much as people complain about the Ribbon, it's hard to argue 7 years later with three consecutive versions of Office using it, with other applications using it and Office's continued success and the emergence of Office 365 that the ribbon is really a problem.

 

[Steephill]

I personally love Windows 8, havent had a problem with it and it just has a lot of improvements over Win7.

 

[Nenu]

Again, huh? Windowed modern apps were announced by Microsoft over 4 moths ago as coming and all of the current rumors say that this is the Threshold build. And how would tiles be forced on anyone if one isn't using apps that support them?

You arent the one that should be saying huh, you avoid answering questions by spouting even more.
You want to make rumours into facts, but you have no foundation.
If your comments have foundation, reveal what that is.

What makes you the voice of Microsoft?

 

[heatlesssun]

You arent the one that should be saying huh, you avoid answering questions by spouting even more.
You want to make rumours into facts, but you have no foundation.
If your comments have foundation, reveal what that is.

What makes you the voice of Microsoft?

Windowed modern apps were already announced by Microsoft months ago, that's not a rumor.

 

[Nenu]

Windowed modern apps were already announced by Microsoft months ago, that's not a rumor.

I'll point you to your previous comment
"...and all of the current rumors say that this is the Threshold build".
So this is fact?

In case you missed the question, what is it that makes you the voice of Microsoft?

 

[heatlesssun]

I'll point you to your previous comment
"...and all of the current rumors say that this is the Threshold build".
So this is fact?

In case you missed the question, what is it that makes you the voice of Microsoft?

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I've mentioned are things that have been said publically by Microsoft months ago and all the rumors about the changes in Threshold have been well publicized, even on this forum: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1829153

 

[Quix]

I hope not, the last time we had the same OS for 13 years. I doubt 7 will really last that long.

 

[Aurelius]

Windows 8, to me, was a sign that Microsoft got way, way too comfortable with its monopoly. It assumed it would rule the computing world forever, and didn't know how to react when Apple and Google started taking control of the industry through smartphones and tablets. Microsoft panicked -- it wanted a Windows answer to the iPad, and was willing to put all its faith in an ideologue (Sinofsky) if it meant reclaiming Microsoft's "natural" dominance.

Of course, the problem is that Sinofsky had the bull-headed nature of Steve Jobs, but not the perceptiveness that made Jobs' willpower so effective. Sinofsky was a long-time Microsoft employee, and that meant he was part of the deeply flawed corporate culture that got the company into trouble in the first place. I don't think he really understood that the iPad succeeded precisely because it was not a PC, or that desktop users wouldn't go out and replace their PCs simply because Windows was suddenly touch-oriented.

Microsoft seems to be a lot more realistic and honest under Nadella, but it's going to take years to back away from Sinofsky's mistake, even after Threshold. And honestly? Given the sea change in the definition of computing, I'm starting to think that Microsoft may never fully recover. It may have to be content with the 14% of the computing market it defined for itself, and that's assuming Windows PC sales start growing again.

 

[player-x]

I am perfectly happy with my Windows 8.1, once i installed Classic Start Menu and de-charmed it.

But i have to agree, its just silly that MS forgets its bread and butter costumers desktop users, and pushed Metro down its costumers throat, even still people ware chocking on it.

I actually like Metro on my Asus Transformer Book T200, on my desktop as a power user, not so much.

Overall i love all the improvements that have bin done under the hood in W8.1, even do Metro/Modern UI is a little of a pain to get rid off on the desktop.

 

[convexion]

I've actually really come to like Metro after abandoning all of the different flavors of start menu replacement software. I spend about a fraction of a second on the start menu after hitting the Win key before typing a few characters of the title to whatever program I want to launch and hitting enter. Easy to use keyboard shortcuts win me over every time.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

Windows 8.1 > 7 for all of my uses. All of the quick shortcuts built into 8.1 really makes 7 seem really crappy to me..

 

[HoffY]

As much as people complain about the Ribbon, it's hard to argue 7 years later with three consecutive versions of Office using it, with other applications using it and Office's continued success and the emergence of Office 365 that the ribbon is really a problem.

Absolute piffle! The Ribbon UI is one step backwards... and just different. it is no better and i can prove it is less user friendly. No fluff. No words. No claims. Plane factual information that proves... as a user.. .it takes more effort and is less user friendly then what it replaced. How? easy. Its a Ribbon UI. It takes *one extra click* to get to *many* frequently used commands that before required only one click.

The fundamental design of the Ribbon UI in itself is irrefutable proof that is NOT better in any way and is in fact (at the very least) a step back.. and then just different for the sake of being different.

 

[HoffY]

Oh.. My God.. and don't even get me started on the wasted screen real estate by the damn Ribbon UI's!!

 

[chrcoluk]

why are microsoft so desperate to ditch win7? its successful.

The problem I have is this.

It takes me several months to get used to an OS with tuning, useability etc. I then expect to stick to that os for at least 3-4 years minimal but ideally longer.

Microsoft have now adopted a rapid release system like google and as such will likely be releasing new OS's every 2-3 years with updates on an annual basis. There is no way I am changing my OS every couple of years. In addition I found windows 8 UI to be inefficient to use, I could get used to it but why should I?

So the issue I will have is even if windows 9 is good, I am not happy microsoft will be abandoning it very quickly. The fact windows 7 only had one service pack is very annoying.

 

[plugwash]

I have a feeling after Windows 7 is no longer viable, I'll be forced to the server line of Windows OS's to have the amount of non-intrusiveness and control that I demand.

You do know MS pushed the win8 interface on the server editions too right?

 

[daglesj]

Windows 9 will be mostly skipped too.

A lot of corps have just finished their Windows 7 rollout. They won't be switching for another 3-4 years.

Hardware doesn't need changing as often as it did for business use.

Windows 10 will be the next big one.

MS needs to switch to a three year cycle of domestic release then business release. Otherwise they will be getting a lot of stuff left on the shelf. Two years is just too fast nowadays. Back in Win95 days we could take all the new stuff they could throw at us and we needed to upgrade often, those days are gone.

Six years between each business release will suit the corporations and business.

 

[Zepher]

My Windows 7 install on my Main rig will be 5 years old at the end of the month. I have never had an OS so stable for so long, and it has been running pretty much 24/7 all that time.

 

[bbenz33]

Absolute piffle! The Ribbon UI is one step backwards... and just different. it is no better and i can prove it is less user friendly. No fluff. No words. No claims. Plane factual information that proves... as a user.. .it takes more effort and is less user friendly then what it replaced. How? easy. Its a Ribbon UI. It takes *one extra click* to get to *many* frequently used commands that before required only one click.

The fundamental design of the Ribbon UI in itself is irrefutable proof that is NOT better in any way and is in fact (at the very least) a step back.. and then just different for the sake of being different.

If you are trying to be serious in the whole extra click requirements then why are you even using the mouse to click when so many of the actions are simple keyboard shortcuts or a simple combination using the alt key. I will agree that first implementation of the ribbon in Office 2007 was terrible but since the redesign in 2010 I have gotten used to it and actually think that most things are easier and faster with it since I customize the ribbon to meet my needs. Therefore I only require a single click on the button on the ribbon to implement the action I desire where before you had to click a menu item then navigate the menu structure to find what you were looking for. Additionally I really like the right-click popup menu that features many of the often used items on it. Saves the time of moving the mouse to the top of the screen to either a menu or ribbon item.

Oh.. My God.. and don't even get me started on the wasted screen real estate by the damn Ribbon UI's!!

You do realize the ribbon can be minimized or hidden so that it operates much like the old menu style. Additionally if you really need the real estate that is "wasted" by the ribbon get yourself a bigger monitor. At this point the 2560x1440 monitors are quite "cheap" and very nice and solve many issues.

 

[ManofGod]

I have very limited experience with Win8 and last night I was going to install Win8.1 update on a friends laptop, so I get it to start downloading and it's on it's own screen, white background with a download bar in the top left, so I go back to the desktop so I can see how fast the download is going in the Task Manager and could not find out how to get back to that window showing the download progress.
then the update fails, saying "Error installing update, would you like to try again?" I try again and it errors out again, wtf... I ran out of time so I'll see if I can get it working right when my friend comes back next week from Georgia.

Oh, and the reason I was trying the update is because the Toshiba DVD Player software that comes on that Window 8 laptop doesn't work, says it is not compatible with the current OS, and the Toshiba DVD player software fails during install saying that there is no player software installed.

So I download the full player install from Toshibas site and that won't install either, wtf. Piece of shit OS and laptop. lol

Not a piece of crap at all, it is the same issue with the same solution that Vista and 7 have. Stop the BITS service and Windows updates service. Delete everything in the c:\windows\softwaredistribution folder. Restart the services and it will work. Also, make sure nothing else is trying to download ahead of it.

 

[ManofGod]

Windows 8 does not work in the professional world. For gamers and social media users it's fine.

Not QFT. Last time I checked, I am a professional.

 

[Zepher]

Not a piece of crap at all, it is the same issue with the same solution that Vista and 7 have. Stop the BITS service and Windows updates service. Delete everything in the c:\windows\softwaredistribution folder. Restart the services and it will work. Also, make sure nothing else is trying to download ahead of it.

I'll give that a try. Do you know how to get back to the download window if you leave it?
Alt+tab didn't show it in the list, so I couldn't go back to see how far along the download was.

 

[ManofGod]

You have no consensus and no confirmed data, as usual, you are running on fumes.
I dont agree with you, what you say doesnt conform to my wishes, nor those of others I know.
Only 1 of my friends uses Windows 8 because its crap and nobody likes it.
If you want to insist that the next Windows is going to be similar, good luck with that
Your attitude is exactly what we dont want from Microsoft.

Then why the HELL would you use anything but Windows 7? Metro apps are not going anywhere thankfully. If you do not want them on your start menu, remove them. (Unless you have not a clue how to do that.)

 

[canon.tk]

Not QFT. Last time I checked, I am a professional.

I am too. I think people just blindly hate Windows 8 because it's the cool thing to do. Like hating WoW. WoW sucks!

I use Windows 7 and 8.1 at home and I use both in a professional environment. The hate is just ignorance.

Windows 8 and Server 2012 do have issues and can be pains to use. Windows 8.1 and Server 2012 R2 fix all that and I find I like using them better than Windows 7 and Server 2008 R2.

 

[ManofGod]

I'll give that a try. Do you know how to get back to the download window if you leave it?
Alt+tab didn't show it in the list, so I couldn't go back to see how far along the download was.

I just double checked because I have not used it in a while but, Windows Key + Tab should work.

 

[pcjunkie]

Windows 9 better show a major UI overhaul (more conventional) for businesses or Windows 7 will become the next XP and maybe even longer. Not hate just plain old truth. After all this time, low adoption rates, businesses not using it, MS doing 180's and on and on and on, the only thing left for the 8.x crowd is to call people haters...

 

[daglesj]

I am too. I think people just blindly hate Windows 8 because it's the cool thing to do. Like hating WoW. WoW sucks!

I use Windows 7 and 8.1 at home and I use both in a professional environment. The hate is just ignorance.

Windows 8 and Server 2012 do have issues and can be pains to use. Windows 8.1 and Server 2012 R2 fix all that and I find I like using them better than Windows 7 and Server 2008 R2.

I have to say now I prefer the slight edge in slickness that 8.1 has over 7. 7 is starting to feel a bit lumpy like XP did when 7 came out.

All the Windows 8.1 machines I have (three) are Pro versions.

 

[heatlesssun]

After all this time, low adoption rates, businesses not using it, MS doing 180's and on and on and on, the only thing left for the 8.x crowd is to call people haters...

LOL! The Windows 8 debate has gotten so weird that simply mentioning the long and well known rumored changes to Windows 8 coming for the very people that have been doing this for years is somehow a defense of Windows 8 to some. I think many Windows 8.x proponents here have long acknowledged the issues with Windows 8.x for some desktop users. Of course it could have and needed to be done better. Clearly some people get lost without a Start Menu, don't like the full screen elements or charms. And these are exactly the things that Microsoft is rumored to be addressing.

As far was Windows 8.x is concerned though, there's just a lot of noise out there that has obscured the facts that's become impossible to have a straightforward conversation about reality. Yes, Windows 8.x isn't popular and can be considered a failure when compared to other Windows desktop OSes, but some of the criticism just doesn't make sense. The desktop in Windows 8.1 and 7 isn't radically different outside of the Start Menu. If a person spends most of their productive time using the Start Menu then I can see why 8.x would present usability challenges. But working inside of desktop applications, where most people do work on a PC, just isn't different from 7.

 

[pcjunkie]

LOL! The Windows 8 debate has gotten so weird that simply mentioning the long and well known rumored changes to Windows 8 coming for the very people that have been doing this for years is somehow a defense of Windows 8 to some. I think many Windows 8.x proponents here have long acknowledged the issues with Windows 8.x for some desktop users. Of course it could have and needed to be done better. Clearly some people get lost without a Start Menu, don't like the full screen elements or charms. And these are exactly the things that Microsoft is rumored to be addressing.

As far was Windows 8.x is concerned though, there's just a lot of noise out there that has obscured the facts that's become impossible to have a straightforward conversation about reality. Yes, Windows 8.x isn't popular and can be considered a failure when compared to other Windows desktop OSes, but some of the criticism just doesn't make sense. The desktop in Windows 8.1 and 7 isn't radically different outside of the Start Menu. If a person spends most of their productive time using the Start Menu then I can see why 8.x would present usability challenges. But working inside of desktop applications, where most people do work on a PC, just isn't different from 7.

Just call me a hater and be done with it....numbers, facts, etc., don't lie. Your or my opinions at this point doesn't mean jack shit. Windows 9 will be here sooner rather than later and then we'll have a better idea where its heading.

 

[daglesj]

Windows 9 wont be going anywhere either. It's too soon.

 

[ManofGod]

Just call me a hater and be done with it....numbers, facts, etc., don't lie. Your or my opinions at this point doesn't mean jack shit. Windows 9 will be here sooner rather than later and then we'll have a better idea where its heading.

He does not do that but hey, going against the grain was never easy. Windows 7 should have sucked by your reasoning since it was just a upgraded Vista. (Or Vista should have been a hit.)

 

[pcjunkie]

He does not do that but hey, going against the grain was never easy. Windows 7 should have sucked by your reasoning since it was just a upgraded Vista. (Or Vista should have been a hit.)

LOL...wut?

 

[player-x]

Oh.. My God.. and don't even get me started on the wasted screen real estate by the damn Ribbon UI's!!

Actually i really like the Ribbon UI, but just like whit everything MS dose, they have to go all in, because, what the F.... is wrong with having a dual UI?

The ribbon for most common use, and the old UI for the detailed and complicated stuff.

Same whit Metro, why dose it have to be on the foreground on the desktop, ware Metro would work fine on the desktop if it was the desktop background, and exchangeable with classic background, and above all not compulsory.

Whats WTF is wrong with giving people choices how they wane use there OS!

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows 9 wont be going anywhere either. It's too soon.

It won't be until sometime in 2015 that Windows 9 is launched, which is about three years after 8 and 6 years after 7. I think most would think that appropriate timing given that the 5 years between XP and Vista was generally considered too long. So going on a three year cycle we wouldn't see Windows 10 until 2018, 9 years after 7.

Even if 9 is great for desktops, I wouldn't expect it to gain a lot of business adoption initially, but if it is considered a solid desktop OS, it's business adoption could start to pick up in 2016 as Windows 7 hardware begins to age out. That's just how it's tended to work historically.

 

[daglesj]

It won't be until sometime in 2015 that Windows 9 is launched, which is about three years after 8 and 6 years after 7. I think most would think that appropriate timing given that the 5 years between XP and Vista was generally considered too long. So going on a three year cycle we wouldn't see Windows 10 until 2018, 9 years after 7.

Even if 9 is great for desktops, I wouldn't expect it to gain a lot of business adoption initially, but if it is considered a solid desktop OS, it's business adoption could start to pick up in 2016 as Windows 7 hardware begins to age out. That's just how it's tended to work historically.

Well look at it this way. Windows 7 came out in late 2009. Most corporations would have started looking at it till early 2010 and then waited for the SP1 to come out so a lot didn't start rolling out till late 2011 and probably didn't finish the rollout till late 2012.

The corp I worked for hadn't finished rolling out XP till 2005! Corp rollouts take years. I sat through the Win95, NT4 and XP rollouts. Progress was glacial to put it mildly.

So a lot of Corps are just 2 years into sweating their Windows 7 assets and as hardware lasts longer and the OS is solid, a lot are not going to be thinking of switching till 2017.

Thats when Windows 10 will be coming over the hill.

The late ones, basically those that waited till April this year will be holding out till 2020 probably.

 

[HoffY]

....

Whats WTF is wrong with giving people choices how they wane use there OS!

exactly! People seem hell bent on pointing out worthless things but they never mention the things missing... little by little.. powerful software is being inked away. Like my point about being able to adjust the window padding boarder! or.. the lack there of!

 

[HoffY]

If you are trying to be serious in the whole extra click requirements...

OK. This is what really makes these discussions worthless. People jumping to conclusions all the time and assuming things. Taking things to far. Take a deep breathe and relax. I'm not taking it "serious". Although when you use software a lot during the day... sure it is genuine every day desire to not be forced to click more then is necessary. ESPECIALLY when you didn't have to do it as much with a prior UI!

... then why are you even using the mouse to click when so many of the actions are simple keyboard shortcuts or a simple combination using the alt key.

OK there are many reasons why. Casual users for one (how do you expect even frequent users to remember a million keyboard shortcut commands? thats not logical). Another reason (though i feel this is a pointless comment... what kind of person asks why you are using a mouse?!?! wtf.)... i use software that has far more commands then Office has. And by god Office has a lot. All of these programs (3 i use heavily myself and i'm sure there are a million other ppl that use quite different software that has at least similar depth) i use heavy keyboard shortcuts and customizations. Quit with the ASSumptions.

I will agree that first implementation of the ribbon in Office 2007 was terrible but since the redesign in 2010 I have gotten used to it and actually think that most things are easier and faster with it since I customize the ribbon to meet my needs. I will agree that first implementation of the ribbon in Office 2007 was terrible but since the redesign in 2010 I have gotten used to it and actually think that most things are easier and faster with it since I customize the ribbon to meet my needs.

Ok this is where you start out with reasonable points. But then lose the plot. How can it be faster? It is just a different style of "toolbar" but with less actual toolbars! This requires the Ribbon to have "Tabs" which you then have to click on other tabs because you can't fit many commands on each ribbon there for REQUIRING you to do things less easily/more clicks/slower. What you THINK is faster or easier.. probably isn't. Unless all those 12 tools you use can fit on that first Ribbon tab! (i say this in a jovial sense to make the point... not having a dig).

Therefore I only require a single click on the button on the ribbon to implement the action I desire where before you had to click a menu item then navigate the menu structure to find what you were looking for.

Again this is where you are jumping to conclusions about something that is totally not what is being compared. Pull-Down menu's are not the topic of discussion here. However they are an important and logical "should be accessible for discovery purposes" feature (to name but one positive of them). i'm talking about TOOLBARS. Those things that are endlessly customisable and have no limitations like the Ribbon. I could put virtually EVERY command available into whatever order i desired.. in whatever location around the screen i desired to put them. Even infrequently used ones for discover-ability purposes. And EVERY command was available with a single click. How does the Ribbon handle this comparison? oh we run out at 12 commands and have to click another TAB! That irks me like no tomorrow!!! Especially when i can access any command i want already with one click!! And the only place you can put it is along the top! More limitations.

And oh my god the amount of times i have to jump from wildly different commands in a day is crazy! I honestly don't know how other ppl can blatantly say the Ribbon is so great when this fundamental fact is irrefutable!! Kidding themselves? It has to be. Perhaps they are self employed and don't have a boss reaming them every minute of the day saying fast as fu*k just isn't fast enough. (even though... ultimate "speed" is not really the point.. usability is the bigger point).

Additionally I really like the right-click popup menu that features many of the often used items on it. Saves the time of moving the mouse to the top of the screen to either a menu or ribbon item.

Yep good point. I agree these are great additions. Ones that i'll mention didnt need a Ribbon UI to achieve Secondly... you make a usability point in the last sentence here. EXACTLY what the Ribbon, more of often then not.. forces a user to do. Not for time saving reasons but more so for usability ones. Its just "painful" as a user to be forced to do this so many times. Sure for a casual user its no big deal. They can fluff around clicking pretty, big, icons and tabs and text all day long and they don't care. they are just making a poster for little Johnny Boy or that Teacher they don't like.

You do realize the ribbon can be minimized or hidden so that it operates much like the old menu style.

Oh trust me.. i realise it can be. It is silly of you to jump to yet another conclusion.

Not sure why you say it mimics the menu style. I'll hazard a guess its due to providing more screen real estate. Which is fine. and a good sub feature of the Ribbon UI. But it doesnt take away from the main flaws of the Ribbon UI. its just an additional 'no brainer' feature that makes it seem like its more powerful then it is. To through in a tid bit of information for you... if you want to go this far. I can hide my toolbars with a shortcut key. I can hide menu bars with a shortcut key. I can hide side panels with a shortcut key. I can even hide the "Menu Bar" with a shortcut key. Hell.. i can even hide all of the aforementioned bars with another shortcut key... which ever i desire. And yes.. i use them all (if the software provides the option to... which most Ribbon UI "disabled" applications do not. These aren't things you might do every hour. But to have the option/ability to do so sure is desirable and expected in modern software.

Additionally if you really need the real estate that is "wasted" by the ribbon get yourself a bigger monitor. At this point the 2560x1440 monitors are quite "cheap" and very nice and solve many issues.

Again wtih ASSumptions. See above paragraph for part response. Secondly... i already have a large monitor (more then two actually, but these points are monitor agnostic) and with higher resolution then you stated. But thanks for missing the point(s) and reminding me of another. Ribbon UI isnt a friend of those that don't have the luxury of uber large or high resolution screens. you get yourself a slightly lower rez screen and you're in for a world of even more hurt with that good ol' Marketers Dream UI that is the Ribbon. And don't play this off as 'no excuse-fix everything with a larger screen'. Some bosses can be tight asses! And a UI by part definition should be flexible to the user in as many ways as possible.

 

[heatlesssun]

However they are an important and logical "should be accessible for discovery purposes" feature (to name but one positive of them). i'm talking about TOOLBARS. Those things that are endlessly customisable and have no limitations like the Ribbon.

The Ribbon in Office 2013 very customizable, not really sure how a simple toolbar button that can only be moved around is any more customizable than a ribbon button, which can also be moved around. And Office also supports a toolbar with buttons.

 

[daglesj]

Office is for girls anyway.

Real IT men keep out of such trivial things.

If a corporation banned Powerpoint they could reduce their staffing levels by 25% and have a productivity increase. That's a fact do not challenge me on this!

 

[SirKronan]

The Ribbon in Office 2013 very customizable, not really sure how a simple toolbar button that can only be moved around is any more customizable than a ribbon button, which can also be moved around. And Office also supports a toolbar with buttons.

Love the ribbon.

I am trying hard to love (or at least like) Windows 8. My new i7 Surface Pro 3 arrives tomorrow, and we'll see how Windows 8 does on a tablet/hybrid device. I'm super excited for the SP3 and the included pen. I'm also anxious to live with a computing device actually designed for the OS, as thus far I have only used Windows 8 on non touch laptops and desktops.

Windows 8 was my primary OS for 5 months straight while I was down at Fort Benning going to Armor School. Weird little quirks always kept popping up and annoying me, and I kept having to search google of fixes or workarounds, as the solutions were typically not easy/intuitive to find on my own. Windows 7 seemed much more intuitive, and stuff "made sense". For example, the automatic muting of apps like Windows Media Player when you minimize them to go back to work.

Why in the hell would I ever just want to have windows media player taking up the whole screen 100% of the time to just play music? That is the stoooopidest thing ... The only reason I would even start playing music on my computer is because I was going to be working on my computer for a good while, and I wanted music playing in the background. But as soon as I would switch tasks back into Word, it would nearly completely mute the music. This was frustrating. Did the same thing with Skype. There was a fix, but like I said, I had to google it, and it was not intuitive.

Windows 8 is such a frustrating love/hate beast. Love the boot times and quick app startup. It's very responsive, and I think I will love the metro interface on my tablet tomorrow when I get it, but quirks, missing settings, failed updates (I, too, have suffered 8.1 and other update failures, multiple times, with no apparent reason) make Windows 8 so much less pleasing than it could have been. Makes me wonder if MS tested it out on enough real, average people out there before its release.