Windows 7 Beta Taking Unusual Development Route

heatlesssun said:
Absolutely. You can be a Mac fan or Linux head and deny reality but Windows OS simply FORMALLY supports an order of magnitude more hardware and software than both platforms combined. This is the main reason that Windows isn't going away anytime soon. It's beyond human ability to test the combination of every piece of software and every piece of hardware that is supported by any OS let alone Windows.
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Brilliantly explained, couldn't have said it better :)
 
Brent_Justice said:
I hope they aren't jumping the gun by going straight to RC, if it needs more time to become more mature I'd rather they get it right first out of the gate rather than a rushed product. Vista was rushed, look what happened.
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Vista is essentially the same thing now that it was at initial release. Only underlying functions that have changed in Vista is a few tweaks to UAC and also networking.

All the blame for the consumers being unprepared for Vista should be placed on the device manufacturers. They failed to utilize RTM time.

Drakan290 said:
Eventually. When Vista started out, it was total crap.
Now it's a decent OS.
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See above.

DeathFromBelow said:
Because they decided to scrap everything and start from scratch halfway through.
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Wrong. They never started Vista from scratch. It's still the underlying NT kernel. Just the stuff that sits on top was redone.



Windows 7 is already ready for release IMO. They need to finalize some of their Beta software (the Live stuff, IE8) before going live with Windows 7 though.
 
TechieSooner said:
Windows 7 is already ready for release IMO. They need to finalize some of their Beta software (the Live stuff, IE8) before going live with Windows 7 though.
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While 7 is a very solid beta, it definitely needs some more cooking. My testing has revealed a fair number of minor problems, but nothing major and one feature, multi-touch is still missing drivers from the hardware manufacturers.
 
heatlesssun said:
but nothing major and one feature, multi-touch is still missing drivers from the hardware manufacturers.
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Who will remedy that one?

It's been proven with Vista that even given ample time the device manufacturers will just sit on their ass until there's tons of people complaining about it.
 
TechieSooner said:
Who will remedy that one?

It's been proven with Vista that even given ample time the device manufacturers will just sit on their ass until there's tons of people complaining about it.
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Then it's not the fault of the OS, but the device manufacturer, in which case I would be looking for a different product from a better, not so lazy manufacturer.
 
heatlesssun said:
While 7 is a very solid beta, it definitely needs some more cooking. My testing has revealed a fair number of minor problems, but nothing major and one feature, multi-touch is still missing drivers from the hardware manufacturers.
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Didn't Apple just win that patent on Multi-Touch? Seems that this innovation might get squashed imho...unless you buy an Apple product. I could see them requiring retardedly high licensing like Sony and BD. It's a sure way to kill a technology.
 
Emission said:
Then it's not the fault of the OS, but the device manufacturer, in which case I would be looking for a different product from a better, not so lazy manufacturer.
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Agreed. If you can't create the software necessary to run your hardware, then what the hell is the point in buying that hardware?
 
godfetish said:
Didn't Apple just win that patent on Multi-Touch? Seems that this innovation might get squashed imho...unless you buy an Apple product. I could see them requiring retardedly high licensing like Sony and BD. It's a sure way to kill a technology.
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Yes, I've been tracking that, but so far I've found little. Thing is Apple doesn't make the actual hardware that used for multi-touch so how are they supposed to impose a patent on that? Microsoft has definitely been doing work in this area as well.

If Apple wants to do legal battle over this it could become very complicated.
 
TechieSooner said:
Who will remedy that one?

It's been proven with Vista that even given ample time the device manufacturers will just sit on their ass until there's tons of people complaining about it.
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This is an ordinary printer driver, this is technology that Microsoft has made much ado about and I don't see Microsoft launching 7 if key partners need some time to get high profile stuff working. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Everyone blamed Microsoft for Vista's hardware compatibility problems and I think that they are not going to make the same mistake this time.
 
godfetish said:
Didn't Apple just win that patent on Multi-Touch?
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No. Devil is in the details. They won a patent on some of the gestures (pinch to zoom).

If they tried to build a legal defense on multi-touch in general it would utterly fail in any court. Multi-Touch as been around for some time now.


heatlesssun said:
This is an ordinary printer driver, this is technology that Microsoft has made much ado about and I don't see Microsoft launching 7 if key partners need some time to get high profile stuff working. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Everyone blamed Microsoft for Vista's hardware compatibility problems and I think that they are not going to make the same mistake this time.
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They won't, because most of Vista's drivers already work in Windows 7. Which goes back to my original statement that Windows 7 is already ready for primetime.

The select few drivers that don't work would be taken care of during RTM. That's what RTM is for. If device manufacturers cannot utilize it effectively (like Vista), then that's their fault. Microsoft isn't going to delay a multi-billion dollar software package for a few printer drivers that don't work.
 
When I downloaded the Vista 64 drivers for my 8800GTS 512 and went to install them, the installer actually said "Windows 7" at the top, which is neat, and proves a point that Vista drivers are generally supposed to be 7 compatible.
 
TechieSooner said:
No. Devil is in the details. They won a patent on some of the gestures (pinch to zoom).

If they tried to build a legal defense on multi-touch in general it would utterly fail in any court. Multi-Touch as been around for some time now.
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Yeah, I think it could become a complicated legal battle with perhaps an unpredictable result.

TechieSooner said:
They won't, because most of Vista's drivers already work in Windows 7. Which goes back to my original statement that Windows 7 is already ready for primetime.

The select few drivers that don't work would be taken care of during RTM. That's what RTM is for. If device manufacturers cannot utilize it effectively (like Vista), then that's their fault. Microsoft isn't going to delay a multi-billion dollar software package for a few printer drivers that don't work.
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I meant to say that the multi-touch hardware ISN'T a printer. And not all Vista drivers are working perfectly under 7. All am trying to say is that I think Microsoft is going to be acutely aware of the status of drivers. Overall they are in good shape, but that's not enough. My predication is for a late Q3 early Q4 launch. I think that a launch in time for back to school might be a little too early.
 
While they are jumping from one beta to RC, people I know working on it tell me that The Man has mandated that RC be a true release candidate. In the past they have gotten away with "RCs" that were not even beta quality. Based on the quality of this beta I think their new approach is working.
 
TechieSooner said:
Wrong. They never started Vista from scratch. It's still the underlying NT kernel. Just the stuff that sits on top was redone.
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What I read that happend was this -

Initial development of Vista from the usual desktop OS kernal wasnt going very well, quite frankly it was a patchwork mess.

The 'Longhorn' project manager then discovered a small team tucked away that had been working on cleaning up the server 2003 kernal for some time. A totally different workstream, kind of a pet project. However, it was found that the code they had was far cleaner and more reliable so the work was switched to develop what became Vista on top of that.

Might be a story but I remember it being a big article with lots of quotes.
 
Emission said:
Then it's not the fault of the OS, but the device manufacturer, in which case I would be looking for a different product from a better, not so lazy manufacturer.
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Excellent point.
So whats the alternative to Creative cards? I'd love to have one. I really dislike them and how they treat thier customers and fans and drivers.

No other manufacture offers the game enhancements and compatability, oh and I want that feature from the old nforce soundstorm chip, dolby digital live, so I can use just my digital cable for surround sound, and not be forced to use a set of analog and digital cables to get surround sound in everything.

(note that I'm not counting the stuff from auzentech, thats still made by creative).
 
RedStarSQD said:
windows 7 is mostly vista ..so alot of beta testing already done :D
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As coy as that may sound, I believe it's fairly accurate. In my experience using both Vista and W7, I don't feel there is currently much difference between the two OS's. What software and hardware I use functions the same on both platforms. W7 works fine for me but having said that...so does Vista. The only difference in the look and feel of W7 is that they "moved my cheese" around...again. :rolleyes:

I use XP 64 on my gaming rig and it works flawlessly for me. Still, I might move to W7 in the distant future...but I'm not particularly interested in it now. I'm more interested in the games that run on the OS rather than the platform itself.
 
Creative has dragged their feet too many times IMHO. I also loath how its impossible to connect their soundcard to a case's minijacks for headphone or microphone. They policy is to buy their drive kit. For stunts like this, I'll stick to onboard sound and just be done with it.
 
heatlesssun said:
I meant to say that the multi-touch hardware ISN'T a printer. And not all Vista drivers are working perfectly under 7. All am trying to say is that I think Microsoft is going to be acutely aware of the status of drivers. Overall they are in good shape, but that's not enough. My predication is for a late Q3 early Q4 launch. I think that a launch in time for back to school might be a little too early.
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Most device manufactures WILL NOT bother writing drivers based off a Beta release.
That fact said, why would Microsoft delay a fantastic Beta? It's almost pointless.

If anything at all, they need a longer RTM period.
 
ICOM said:
As coy as that may sound, I believe it's fairly accurate. In my experience using both Vista and W7, I don't feel there is currently much difference between the two OS's. What software and hardware I use functions the same on both platforms. W7 works fine for me but having said that...so does Vista. The only difference in the look and feel of W7 is that they "moved my cheese" around...again. :rolleyes:

I use XP 64 on my gaming rig and it works flawlessly for me. Still, I might move to W7 in the distant future...but I'm not particularly interested in it now. I'm more interested in the games that run on the OS rather than the platform itself.
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Windows 7 is noticeable faster than Vista, it's much more than just an appearance change. XP 64 has been awful for me. Multiple programs that I need are incompatible or won't install whereas on 7 they work fine.
 
Emission said:
Windows 7 is noticeable faster than Vista, it's much more than just an appearance change. XP 64 has been awful for me. Multiple programs that I need are incompatible or won't install whereas on 7 they work fine.
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Excuse the lack of edit. I'd also like to add that there is no slowdown in gaming performance either, coming from XP. I can still play everything maxed out just like I used to.
 
TechieSooner said:
Most device manufactures WILL NOT bother writing drivers based off a Beta release.
That fact said, why would Microsoft delay a fantastic Beta? It's almost pointless.

If anything at all, they need a longer RTM period.
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Well the this beta is pretty well locked down, would have to be if they plan to skip a second beta and go right to RTM and it looks like AMD and nVidia have pretty solid Windows 7 drivers which considering that they are basically Vista drivers should be the case.

The company I am thinking about, N-trig was actually working on drivers with very early releases. The multi-touch stuff is entirely different in 7, so these drivers are new to 7 and have no Vista equivalent. In face N-trig had beta drivers ready to go with the Windows 7 beta, and have since released another round, though they are very limited and are 32 bit only but more capable and 64 bit drivers are supposed to be here shortly.

Microsoft is kind of making a big deal about the touch support in Windows 7. N-trig currently has its hardware in the Dell Tablet XT and the HP tx2z. Even though tablets and touchscreen machines are a niche market, they are important and as I said, Microsoft is touting the stuff. Releasing 7 with this stuff not well baked would be a mistake and I hope that they don't release without having this stuff working well because its just asking for trouble from the media. They'll pick up on this and it will start going around that this stuff isn't ready and we'll have nothing but Vista R2 from the pundits.

I don't think its going to be a huge problem, N-trig is well on its way I believe at getting is stuff working and should be ready.

This is arguably the most important desktop OS release Microsoft has ever had because of the Vista perception problems. Anything less that overwhelming praise of 7 could big problem, once again because of Vista's legacy.

Microsoft simply needs to hit 7 out of the park. If it takes a little more time so be it. But they are in good shape I believe.
 
eggrock said:
Yeah, it uses all of my RAM, too. :rolleyes:
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:rolleyes: Heh, Seems like most people are too short-sighted to understand that it's a caching-style RAM management system, which works much better than the typical usage model. After all, what's the point of buying 4 gigs and not using it all at once anyway?
 
HardDrugsUser is a troll.

Two threads on Vista on the front page; two times he posted a blanket uneducated lackluster attempt at trolling.

Remember children don't feed the trolls.:D
 
heatlesssun said:
Even though tablets and touchscreen machines are a niche market, they are important and as I said, Microsoft is touting the stuff. Releasing 7 with this stuff not well baked would be a mistake and I hope that they don't release without having this stuff working well because its just asking for trouble from the media.
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Meh, I'd disagree only slightly. It's a niche market that isn't as huge as basically scraping the old driver model and starting over as they did in Vista.

They can release Windows 7 for all the desktops they wanted. If RTM period isn't long enough for hardware manufacturer's to get their crap together one of two things will happen:
1) Someone else will step in with some decent drivers.
2) Don't release your hardware running Windows 7.

Simple as that, really. Nobody is saying Day 1 everything will be on Windows 7.
 
Emission said:
Windows 7 is noticeable faster than Vista, it's much more than just an appearance change. XP 64 has been awful for me. Multiple programs that I need are incompatible or won't install whereas on 7 they work fine.
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Define noticeable. My benches didn't show a significant gaming performance increase.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1383898
Vista was slightly faster in World in Conflict, 7 was slightly faster on the Crysis timedemos.

Vista and 7 were both faster than XP on almost every test.
 
I was talking about log-in and desktop loading times and stuff like that. It doesn't take forever like it did with Vista.
 
Emission said:
I was talking about log-in and desktop loading times and stuff like that. It doesn't take forever like it did with Vista.
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Check out my benchmarks, Vista and 7 had better boot/shutdown times than XP.

The only benchmarks where 64-bit XP did better in were 3DMark06, transferring files on the local drive, and compressing files with 64-bit 7zip.
 
^^^ Take a chillpill man.
You can run benchmarks on 10 different systems and get 10 different results.
 
TechieSooner said:
Meh, I'd disagree only slightly. It's a niche market that isn't as huge as basically scraping the old driver model and starting over as they did in Vista.

They can release Windows 7 for all the desktops they wanted. If RTM period isn't long enough for hardware manufacturer's to get their crap together one of two things will happen:
1) Someone else will step in with some decent drivers.
2) Don't release your hardware running Windows 7.

Simple as that, really. Nobody is saying Day 1 everything will be on Windows 7.
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I don't think that anyone is going to need a lot of motivation to get Window 7 ready after Vista. With the economy like it its, hardware makers are going be very motivated to be ready for Windows 7 as its looks like its going to get a lot of kudos and they will motivate at least some people to buy new hardware.

I still have to go back to the touch though. If Microsoft is touting it and its not ready they will catch hell for it, niche market or not. Plus, though a niche market, tablets and
touch machines are premium devices on the price scale. They make a hell of a lot more money on these devices than netbooks. If you're touting the technology, if the market is one of your more profitable and things aren't in place your asking for trouble. Now if RTM makes things go faster then so be it.

Even it is takes a little more time, as long as they get it out for for Chirstmas, they'll be doing well. Microsoft can not at any costs repeat any hint of what happened with Vista. What ever their deployment plan was for Vista should be burned in effigy and forgotten for all time.

This launch has to be damn near flawless. If Microsoft screws this up it could be the beginning of then end for them and I truly believe it. Microsoft haters have been extremely vocal since Vista and it is hurting MS a bit. Another Vista will accelerate the hate.

Just go to any blog talking about the Windows 7 release. I've been looking at some of them and Windows 7 is being perceived well, but my gosh, the anti-MS guys are spewing nothing less than hate. Microsoft can ill afford to give them another weapon in the form of a botched Windows 7 release.

Take your time Microsoft and GET IT RIGHT!;)
 
heatlesssun said:
If Microsoft screws this up it could be the beginning of then end for them and I truly believe it.
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I seriously can't help but LOL at this.

That's what the media said about Vista too. Guess what? Sold at darn near double the rate that XP ever did.

Couple that with the fact Windows 7 is getting good praise AND isn't changing a ton of interfacing like Vista... It'll be a smash it.

I'd consider your little niche touchscreen market to be probably less than 5%. That's hardly something that will delay a billion-dollar profit cash cow for Microsoft.

heatlesssun said:
Take your time Microsoft and GET IT RIGHT!;)
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This is where you are wrong.

It's not Microsoft that is at fault or has to get it right here. The ONLY thing Microsoft can do is give the developers more time.
Like I said, that's RTM. Most developers aren't going to try to write their drivers on a Beta OS. So delaying RTM delays everything.

In this bad economy, one of two choices:
1) Some other company with sense enough to write good drivers will step in and steal all of your market.
2) You'll crash and burn because Dell, HP, etc aren't going to be putting your incompatible hardware in their machines.


Microsoft has nothing to do with it. Again, the only thing Microsoft can do is offer more time. And again, Vista proved that even with ample time that manufactures fail to act.

Delaying release delays everything. Period.
 
Drakan290 said:
Eventually. When Vista started out, it was total crap.
Now it's a decent OS.


Don't start with the stupid OS wars, it doesn't get anyone anywhere...
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I don't want to have to wait a year for Microsoft to get off there ass and realize it i want them to get it right the first time. Like with vista.
 
Shockey said:
I don't want to have to wait a year for Microsoft to get off there ass and realize it i want them to get it right the first time. Like with vista.
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Please, enlighten me how Microsoft sat around for a year after Vista's release. I'd really like to hear your explanation on that one.
 
vista didnt get it right.. at all. vista was the biggest bloatware piece of garbage ive seen. they advertized damn stupid "image stitching to make a panarama!" as a major feature.. i want an OPERATING SYSTEM.. i dont want all these integrated bells and whistles, i just want it to run my computer STABLE!! vista is slow as hell. running on an athlon 9850, with 4 MF gb of ram, and 7 tb of disk space.. vista took forever to load.. i want the next OS to load with the speed vista does. 30 seconds!!
 
Killian1701 said:
vista is slow as hell. running on an athlon 9850, with 4 MF gb of ram, and 7 tb of disk space.. vista took forever to load.. i want the next OS to load with the speed vista does. 30 seconds!!
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Then something is wrong with your install. I'd suggest making a thread over in the OS forum about that, because if it doesn't run snappy on hardware like that then something is wrong.

Also, if you V-lited that install at all, all bets are off. If you tweaked the RAM management, all bets are off. LEAVE VISTA ALONE and it'll run just fine.
 
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