Windows 12

DrezKill

Gawd
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612
Windows Store? Hahahaha, what a joke. I shouldn't have to use that pile of **** to install additional apps that should come packed with the drivers. Seriously, install the drivers in Windows 7, and look at how much more you get over Win10/11.
That DCH bullshit is annoying. For example, nVidia GPU drivers no longer come with Sedona (aka nVidia Control Panel). Now you have to install that separately from the Windows Fucking Store. For a while they offered Standard (non-DCH drivers) along with the DCH ones, but eventually newer GPU drivers stopped coming in Standard format. Similar situation with Intel iGPU drivers, the control panel program for Intel iGPUs is on the Windows Store. Same deal with Realtek audio and WiFi/Bluetooth on a recent laptop I worked on, the configuration/control-panel-type programs for these you get from the Windows Store. I think I read that Microsoft mandates that shit. Tell me, what was the fucking reasoning behind that? Now sure, in some cases, you don't actually have to go hunt the software down in the Windows Store, it'll get installed automatically. When I installed Intel iGPU drivers on that laptop, the control panel program was automatically installed through the Windows Store. Still, what's so hard about including that with the drivers (or as a separate download) and running standalone? What if you are setting up a system with no Internet access? How do you install Windows Store apps then? In some cases (like with ASUS laptops), there'll be an entry for such software on their driver download page, but it's just a link to take you to the Windows Store page for that app. You can't download the installer for it and run it standalone. Win10 has been one long runaway train ride of completely unnecessary (and often inconvenient) changes and stupid-ass decisions, as well as an overall drop in QA.

I also have a personal preference for Creative Sound cards, primary their older X-Fi line, with most of those cards between 12-16 years old at this point. The only time in recent memory that there was any driver issue whatsoever was when the Windows 10 1903 update came out (Spring 2019), when MS changed some things that broke the Creative driver. A new driver was released within a week, despite the age of the cards, and everything was great again. Never had a single issue with Windows 11.
So X-Fi cards still work in Win11? I was under the impression that they didn't. If so, that's good, not that I plan on moving to Win11. And yeah, I've been surprised by Creative's Win10 support for the X-Fi family. Off-topic, I was wondering if you knew how X-Fi cards behaved on PCI-Express 4.0 and 5.0 slots. I heard with 4.0 slots you have change the generation for that slot to pre-4.0 in the mobo's UEFI to get the cards to function properly. Not sure how true that is. Might depend on the motherboard.
 

Domingo

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Honestly, I don't care one way or another. I appreciate Windows 11 from an aesthetic point of view, but I still totally despise that they haven't gotten Settings/Control Panel right. It has been 10 years.
At some point we're all going to be forced to use a new OS that has stuff we don't like. Either that or you'll have to jump through a pile of hoops to keep using an older OS. I'll just hold out hope that they finally unify all of their settings on one place.
 

Bigbacon

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I dont want my windows to look like Mac OS.....are there things out there for 11 to make it look like 10 and before?
 

GotNoRice

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So X-Fi cards still work in Win11? I was under the impression that they didn't. If so, that's good, not that I plan on moving to Win11. And yeah, I've been surprised by Creative's Win10 support for the X-Fi family. Off-topic, I was wondering if you knew how X-Fi cards behaved on PCI-Express 4.0 and 5.0 slots. I heard with 4.0 slots you have change the generation for that slot to pre-4.0 in the mobo's UEFI to get the cards to function properly. Not sure how true that is. Might depend on the motherboard.

Yeah the X-Fi cards are still doing great in Windows 11 using the Windows 10 driver from 2019. Most of my newer computers use PCIe X-Fi Titanium based cards while a few of my older PCs use PCI X-Fi cards. They all still work, including all extra features, control panel, etc.

I've had to do that (manually set PCIe speed) for a few cards on my X570 board, including an Intel Dual-Port gigabit adapter. I've just got into the habit of checking that first thing if a card doesn't work for some reason.

I appreciate Windows 11 from an aesthetic point of view, but I still totally despise that they haven't gotten Settings/Control Panel right. It has been 10 years.
At some point we're all going to be forced to use a new OS that has stuff we don't like. Either that or you'll have to jump through a pile of hoops to keep using an older OS. I'll just hold out hope that they finally unify all of their settings on one place.

Just curious, why do you hold up "unify all of their settings on one place" as a goal? Would that really be a good thing? While they have gradually tried to incorporate more into the new "Settings", I don't think it's an accident or negligence that they have mostly left the Control Panel in place. I think it's a very good thing that both still exist, because they each serve a different purpose. "Settings" seems designed to make things as simple as possible for people who just want to make basic changes while using their device. Something a bit more intuitive for people who's only computer experience comes from the phone in their pocket. The Control panel is where you go when you want to make more significant changes. Adding a bunch of advanced settings into "Settings" is just going to confuse most casual users and make it easier for people to break their own computer. Getting rid of the Control Panel would make it a lot harder when an IT person actually has to do something significant to a computer. Right now what we have is a spoon and a fork; while their uses can sometimes overlap, ditching both for a spork is not the answer.

I dont want my windows to look like Mac OS.....are there things out there for 11 to make it look like 10 and before?

Of course there are programs/addons that can change the GUI. Just try not to get stuck in a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure where you already decide in advance that you don't like a certain OS, you download a bunch of 3rd party addons to change the OS, the 3rd party addons end up causing problems, and then you blame those problems on the OS instead of the addons since the problems seem to reinforce the pre-formed conclusions that you had already made about the OS.

OR, you could simply spend a while getting used to the new OS and it's changes. Before long it will begin to feel familiar. Then after a while you use a computer with an older OS and it will feel clunky; because you are starting to appreciate the things the new OS does better. Things go smoothly because you're not breaking anything with 3rd party addons and you no longer feel a decade behind any time you use a new computer. It's a win/win.
 

Domingo

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Just curious, why do you hold up "unify all of their settings on one place" as a goal? Would that really be a good thing? While they have gradually tried to incorporate more into the new "Settings", I don't think it's an accident or negligence that they have mostly left the Control Panel in place. I think it's a very good thing that both still exist, because they each serve a different purpose. "Settings" seems designed to make things as simple as possible for people who just want to make basic changes while using their device. Something a bit more intuitive for people who's only computer experience comes from the phone in their pocket. The Control panel is where you go when you want to make more significant changes. Adding a bunch of advanced settings into "Settings" is just going to confuse most casual users and make it easier for people to break their own computer. Getting rid of the Control Panel would make it a lot harder when an IT person actually has to do something significant to a computer. Right now what we have is a spoon and a fork; while their uses can sometimes overlap, ditching both for a spork is not the answer.

I wouldn't consider them a spoon and fork so much as 2 different spoons...one of which you'd like to throw away, but you have to use once a month. At one time settings was like a very low level control panel for non-power users. Now? It has nearly everything from the control panel...it's just always seemingly missing a few things. That's in spite of that menu having gotten cavernous. I think about the times at work when people are trying to swap between different audio devices that are plugged in. They can almost do what they want in Settings...but not quite. MS has already ported over 85% of the control panel in Windows 11. Especially after the summer 2022 update. I just want them to finish the job. There's only one settings menu in iOS, Android, MacOS, and even Windows prior to Windows 8.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Just curious, why do you hold up "unify all of their settings on one place" as a goal? Would that really be a good thing? While they have gradually tried to incorporate more into the new "Settings", I don't think it's an accident or negligence that they have mostly left the Control Panel in place. I think it's a very good thing that both still exist, because they each serve a different purpose.

Yes, it is negligence and laziness that both the classic control panel and the stupid metro settings pages exist at the same time. Microsoft has said for years that they plan to completely replace the control panel with the metro settings garbage, but their laziness, negligence and gross incompetence has precluded that from happening. Another lesser force keeping them from completely changing is user backlash.

They both don't serve different purposes, they literally try to serve the same purpose. So much so that functionality is duplicated in both, or a convoluted clusterfuck like user account management, where the classic control panel still exists, but options are disabled and it tells you to manage accounts in "PC Settings" instead. Only to be told to go back to the control panel because some other options aren't available, then you have to use the three finger salute to manage user accounts.


"Settings" seems designed to make things as simple as possible for people who just want to make basic changes while using their device. Something a bit more intuitive for people who's only computer experience comes from the phone in their pocket. The Control panel is where you go when you want to make more significant changes. Adding a bunch of advanced settings into "Settings" is just going to confuse most casual users and make it easier for people to break their own computer. Getting rid of the Control Panel would make it a lot harder when an IT person actually has to do something significant to a computer. Right now what we have is a spoon and a fork; while their uses can sometimes overlap, ditching both for a spork is not the answer.

Modern smartphone settings menus are orders of magnitude more convoluted and recursively nested to purposefully frustrate the user than the classic control panel ever was in its unmolested form. The PC settings page does nothing to make it easier for users to change simple settings. Smartphone UIs are intentionally confusing to make the user have to spend time navigating literally every sub menu to find something.

People didn't have problems in Windows 98 turning their desktop into an organ pile sin against god neon green with bonzi buddy and active desktop GIFs and yellow text with large monochrome icons. They wouldn't have a problem doing the same today.
 

DrezKill

Gawd
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Mar 11, 2007
Messages
612
Yeah the X-Fi cards are still doing great in Windows 11 using the Windows 10 driver from 2019. Most of my newer computers use PCIe X-Fi Titanium based cards while a few of my older PCs use PCI X-Fi cards. They all still work, including all extra features, control panel, etc.

I've had to do that (manually set PCIe speed) for a few cards on my X570 board, including an Intel Dual-Port gigabit adapter. I've just got into the habit of checking that first thing if a card doesn't work for some reason.
Aaaahhhh, very good to know, thanks for the info.


OR, you could simply spend a while getting used to the new OS and it's changes. Before long it will begin to feel familiar. Then after a while you use a computer with an older OS and it will feel clunky; because you are starting to appreciate the things the new OS does better.
Been using Win10 since launch (as well as continuing to use Win7) and this still hasn't happened yet. Win7 definitely does NOT feel clunkier than WIn10, quite the opposite. Getting used to Win10 and being familiar with it doesn't make it better. Win11 even worse.
 
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GoldenTiger

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Been using Win10 since launch (as well as continuing to use Win7) and this still hasn't happened yet. Win7 definitely does NOT feel clunkier than WIn10, quite the opposite. Getting used to Win10 and being familiar with it doesn't make it better. Win11 even worse.
Disagree. I used win7, then 8 and 8.1, followed by 10 when it went rtm, and felt 8 was better than 7, and 10 better than 8.1. People bashed 8 because they couldn't stand a full screen start menu :LOL:.
 

ProfessorUtopia

Limp Gawd
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Aug 12, 2005
Messages
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I'm running Windows 11 22H2 on my Surface Go, new gaming desktop, and work laptop. I had the same initial reactions at launch as many of the people in this thread, with the inability to never combine icons and no access to Task Manager from the taskbar being my biggest unresolved gripes.

That said, when I go back to a Windows 10 interface (which is pretty frequent, given that every current version of Windows Server uses it), it really does feel like going backwards. The cleanup of the right-click menu, revamp of Settings, tabbed File Explorer, and a host of other smaller refinements really make Windows 11 feel like a cohesively designed operating system. It just takes some acclimation. By comparison, Windows 10 feels to me like four eras of OS that have been cobbled together.

I loved Windows 7 as much as anyone; just as I loved BlackBerry 10 OS. I'll always keep fond memories of OS's past with me, but the world has moved on. If you don't embrace the new hotness, you're going to end up old 'n' busted.
 

Bowman15

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This is my primary prayer that 12 will address. I want any under hood improvements to be had. But I HATE what they've done with the right click context menus in Win11.

This is my biggest gripe with Win 11. Some of the UI changes and how to get to system apps is just baffling. I spun up my home pc for the first time in a couple months and basically nothing has changed. Its stable and fast but dang...I really don't care for the start menu.
 

LukeTbk

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This is my primary prayer that 12 will address. I want any under hood improvements to be had. But I HATE what they've done with the right click context menus in Win11.
That one is an really easy fix at least, admin command prompt:
  • reg.exe add "HKCU\Software\Classes\CLSID\{86ca1aa0-34aa-4e8b-a509-50c905bae2a2}\InprocServer32" /f /ve

Restart explorer process.
 
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Not sure what Microsoft was thinking when they removed most of the customization of the taskbar and start menu options, as usual people complain about it and Microsoft never really listens to these issues is what caused Windows 11 to be unpopular among users.

I don't have much hope for Windows 12 either but hopefully it will be a massive improvement over 11.
 

Jagger100

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Does it really make a difference? They offer free upgrades to retail customers and OEMs/business customers are going to buy regardless of what version is offered as they complete their upgrade cycles.
They couldn't scrutinize interactions between two separate changes slightly out of sync. With large releases they can evaluate the full system and catch all the interactions.
 

MaZa

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https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
I use this, for those complaining about the Win11 taskbar/start bar.

This is great, but at least in my system it fails quite spectacularly whenever Windows gets a bigger update, making a booting quite hard and I have to enter Task Manager and start killing everything just so I can get my desktop icons and taskbar visible and be able to go to internet and download the updated version of ExplorerPatcher. 😅
 

Lifelite

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I don't have really any issues with Windows 11 so far, yeah some of the UX choices are a bit odd, but I use hotkeys and run commands mostly so I'm not the best example lol. The right click to open in terminal thing is fantastic though.
 

LukeTbk

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I don't have really any issues with Windows 11 so far, yeah some of the UX choices are a bit odd, but I use hotkeys and run commands mostly so I'm not the best example lol. The right click to open in terminal thing is fantastic though.
The late windows 10 and windows 11 Terminal with the tabs out of the box with the right click direct to it was something I always wanted, will see if the new from the ground taskbar will pay off in the near future (and one day make it that Windows 11 not being a large upgrade instead of a new title will feel like it make sense instead of being mostly because of behind the curtain security stuff).

The easier way to choose where to put the window when you mouse over the full screen button in the top right corner has also potential, seem to already work well enough.

I shifted recently, but never thought yet of going back to 10, which is not saying much considering how similar 11 seem to be to 10 (versus 98 to the 2000/xp or xp to vista or vista to 8, that felt like a change), this is more Vista to 7 or 8 to 10, feel a bit like marketing reason to have a name change.
 

Domingo

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I had mixed feelings about Windows 11 initially. I like the visual elements and have long wished things looked a little closer to Apple's OS. Something that at least looked like a graphic designer was on the staff. At the same time, the whole "recommended" section of the start bar drove me nuts, settings were still scattered in multiple places, old icons were still hanging around, and frankly it didn't do anything (except HDR) faster/better.

The 22H2 update has finally made me pretty happy, though. I use a mix of Windows 10 and an older Windows 11 install at work, and I like my home install more than either of them. For basically everything. Settings is almost totally self-sufficient, the new look is more universal, "recommended" is tiny now, even the right click menu looks/works better. I feel like it's pretty close to what I hoped it would be now. I still want REAL Android support, but I at least see progress.
 

Domingo

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Wooow, that is NOT a phrase I am used to hearing. Usually this is pointed out as a negative.

Yup, and I never understood that. I feel like Apple has always focused more on pushing aesthetics forward, often at the cost of usability and customization. At the very least their OS and products feel like designers and artists are involved in a major way...which they are. At Microsoft, it feels like coders are making everything. I value both approaches. I like having things work quickly with tons flexibility, but they can look good, too.
 

cjcox

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Disagree. I used win7, then 8 and 8.1, followed by 10 when it went rtm, and felt 8 was better than 7, and 10 better than 8.1. People bashed 8 because they couldn't stand a full screen start menu :LOL:.
Windows 7 User: Can't believe Linux guys. They have to use the keyboard. We use the mouse.

Linux Guy: What are you doing over there?

Windows 8 User: You have to start typing the application you want ...

Linux Guy: :)
 

a2gtinut

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win12.... no. still have XP machine for special use, one Win7, and htpc with Win10 and Mint laptop. i dont see need for anything new
 

GotNoRice

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Windows 12 right now, even the idea, sounds like a Babylon Bee article.

You're not far off considering that MS has NOT mentioned even a peep about Windows 12 and the only article that mentioned Windows 12 at all is obviously jumping to conclusions for click-bait reasons.

What is both interesting and sad is how so many here have taken the bait. Please people, don't be so gullible, it's embarrassing.

win12.... no. still have XP machine for special use, one Win7, and htpc with Win10 and Mint laptop. i dont see need for anything new

I know a lot of people who didn't see the need for an HDTV because their NTSC CRT got the job done just fine. Many didn't see a need for cell phones because their land-line worked great. What's the point of streaming music when you have FM radio?

Technology moves forward. You have to make the decision if you want to move forward with it or start the process of becoming a stubborn curmudgeon with their head stuck in the sand. If you prefer the later, then so be it, just don't lie to yourself about it, acting like you're making some noble informed choice. When you take that path, you are no different than countless others from generations past who also gave up on new technology as they got older because it was easier to stick with what was familiar.
 

GoldenTiger

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Windows 7 User: Can't believe Linux guys. They have to use the keyboard. We use the mouse.

Linux Guy: What are you doing over there?

Windows 8 User: You have to start typing the application you want ...

Linux Guy: :)
Nah, you still could click just fine if you wanted to on Win8 :). Full screen start menu had icons ;). Typing has always been faster though just as it is to use hot keys on a program instead of clicking.
 

GotNoRice

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number of bugs in Windows is unreal, fix one and create few new

I'm not sure what coming in here and dropping an unsubstantiated generalization is intended to accomplish. I'd bet that if you actually listed the "bugs" you are encountering, half could probably be overcome using the knowledge on this forum and the other half are probably due to user error. But then again, based on your previous post in this thread, it seems that you don't even use Windows 11, so how can you be familiar with it's "bugs"?
 
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