Windows 11 May Not Run on Early Ryzen, Threadripper, Skylake-X, or Any Pre-2016 Intel PC

GotNoRice

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So yeah, I could definitely see companies utilizing TPM to control users. It won't be full throttle at first. They will slowly add new features that you can only use if you have TPM, or give "legacy" users lower quality to convince them to upgrade. Not my first rodeo.

In that fictional scenario, what quality level do you see them allowing Linux users without TPM to have?
 

cybereality

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In that fictional scenario, what quality level do you see them allowing Linux users without TPM to have?
Well you can use TPM in Linux, it is just not plug-and-play and requires a lot of setup. It would be more about the software support.

So I'm not sure, but generally I'd expect Windows users to get the new features first and Linux to lag behind as usual (like with DLSS just now available on Linux after like 2 years).
 

RanceJustice

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Well you can use TPM in Linux, it is just not plug-and-play and requires a lot of setup. It would be more about the software support.

So I'm not sure, but generally I'd expect Windows users to get the new features first and Linux to lag behind as usual (like with DLSS just now available on Linux after like 2 years).

Ironically, DLSS arrives JUST about the time that AMD SuperResolution debuts with an open, platform and GPU independent solution - imagine that! Must be coincidence!

Regardless of OS, requiring TPM 2.0 (or even SecureBoot) for wide, consumer adoption allows the implementation of policies that are essentially DRM. In the past it was never attempted because there wasn't a critical mass of users that had the hardware necessary, but once you're reasonably sure that a large percentage of people have it , you can start tightening the vice. Sure, it won't be every game, or streaming media, or anything else overnight but it will become normalized and yet another thing that people who object - even those of us who may have called out the bullshit from the start - will just have to go along with it or completely abandon large swathes of computing and entertainment that would otherwise be of interest. Once you have a critical mass , you don't need to worry about looking draconian or it being a new outlier, its just the "standard" and everyone who complains can be positioned as some niche objector.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Ironically, DLSS arrives JUST about the time that AMD SuperResolution debuts with an open, platform and GPU independent solution - imagine that! Must be coincidence!

Regardless of OS, requiring TPM 2.0 (or even SecureBoot) for wide, consumer adoption allows the implementation of policies that are essentially DRM. In the past it was never attempted because there wasn't a critical mass of users that had the hardware necessary, but once you're reasonably sure that a large percentage of people have it , you can start tightening the vice. Sure, it won't be every game, or streaming media, or anything else overnight but it will become normalized and yet another thing that people who object - even those of us who may have called out the bullshit from the start - will just have to go along with it or completely abandon large swathes of computing and entertainment that would otherwise be of interest. Once you have a critical mass , you don't need to worry about looking draconian or it being a new outlier, its just the "standard" and everyone who complains can be positioned as some niche objector.

Exactly. Well put.
 

cjcox

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Well you can use TPM in Linux, it is just not plug-and-play and requires a lot of setup. It would be more about the software support.

So I'm not sure, but generally I'd expect Windows users to get the new features first and Linux to lag behind as usual (like with DLSS just now available on Linux after like 2 years).

There's a lot wrong with your statement. But I understand the point you're trying to make.
 

1_rick

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In that fictional scenario, what quality level do you see them allowing Linux users without TPM to have?
Well, it could start with, say, disabling globe view in world maps, or reduced detail in some cities, to pick a couple of completely random and totally-made-up ideas that nobody is doing for less-favored hardware.
 

Red Falcon

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Upgrading once every decade isn’t the constant upgrade cycle…
Windows 10, and soon to be Windows 11, is literally a constant upgrade cycle:

windows-10-support-lifecycle-sept-2018.jpg

Windows-10-lifecycle-fact-sheet.jpg

^ That all is hardly "once every decade", and is more like once every six months. :meh:
I yearn for the days of service packs instead of this "rolling release" and "Windows-as-a-Service" bullshit that constantly resets everything, adds unwanted features, and removes needed and required features - all at Microsoft's whim.

But, whatever floats your boat.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Windows 10, and soon to be Windows 11, is literally a constant upgrade cycle:

View attachment 370503

View attachment 370504

^ That all is hardly "once every decade", and is more like once every six months. :meh:
I yearn for the days of service packs instead of this "rolling release" and "Windows-as-a-Service" bullshit that constantly resets everything, adds unwanted features, and removes needed and required features - all at Microsoft's whim.

But, whatever floats your boat.

I thought he was talking about the hardware, not the OS...
 

cybereality

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Aside from all this, Win 11 looks like a Win 10 patch (which is likely what it is). So what is the driving force behind all the new hardware requirements?
 

Endgame

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I thought he was talking about the hardware, not the OS...
Exactly.

if your hardware is going back to the Bloomfield days and you want win 11 - you’ll need to upgrade and it’s not even an unreasonable ask. That’s upgrading once every like 14 years.

if you have a 7700k, sure, I’d get why you may be a little annoyed, but even then upgrading twice a decade doesn’t seem to unreasonable to me either.

that really old hardware really isn’t drastically better than a raspberry pi 4 either. I was quite surprised to see my 8gb pi 4 do nearly as much with in distributed computing as my 8gb core2quad 9650 while also using 115 watts less power. That basically convinced me to decommission my oldest hardware.
 

SmokeRngs

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my guess, security. which people usually rip on them for...
More likely additional control over the machine.

The idea that a piece of hardware is going to increase security is stupid. Security is a never-ending game of whack a mole in which hardware solutions are useless. Security threats can pop up in a matter of days and there's no way you can replace hardware in time for the security it supposedly provides to have any effect. As a matter of fact hardware security built in to a CPU is a liability. Take the fact that MS has said no to the previous iteration of TPM and people's defense of that: there are bypasses and security holes in the older version. TPM was obsolete before it was ever put into a CPU.

What happens when TPM 2.0 is proven to be problematic? Is everyone going to be required to upgrade their systems to get the new version which will also be obsolete before the first chip is made? What about the even worse possibility that it is taken over and used for nefarious purposes such as malware or locking you out of your own system?

There's a reason Intel's Palladium was shot down about twenty years ago. Too many people are like the boiling frogs from the old saying. The heat has only been slowly turned up over time so they don't notice or don't care about what is happening. Not only do these people not care, they're defending and cheering on those who keep turning up the heat.
 

pendragon1

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I have an ASUS Prime B365M-A motherboard with a Core i5-9400F CPU running Windows 10 with all the updates.
When I run the Microsoft tool to check for Windows 11 compatibility it says "This PC can't run Windows 11. This PC must support secure boot".

Can anyone tell me if this motherboard/CPU combo will be able to run Windows 11? Do I need to install a newer BIOS update? (and if so, is there a guide on the easiest/safest way to do that?)
Is there a setting I need to change in the BIOS?
Or am I out of luck with this hardware?
this fits here.
its still a long way out to official release. if you want to try insider, get everything up to date and look in you bios for tpm/secureboot options and enable them.
 

JSumrall

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What are you playing? Enable proton in steam, hit install, and go...? I'll give some of the ones you're struggling with a shot.
Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft.

I primarily just play the first 2 right now.
 

lopoetve

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More likely additional control over the machine.

The idea that a piece of hardware is going to increase security is stupid. Security is a never-ending game of whack a mole in which hardware solutions are useless. Security threats can pop up in a matter of days and there's no way you can replace hardware in time for the security it supposedly provides to have any effect. As a matter of fact hardware security built in to a CPU is a liability. Take the fact that MS has said no to the previous iteration of TPM and people's defense of that: there are bypasses and security holes in the older version. TPM was obsolete before it was ever put into a CPU.

What happens when TPM 2.0 is proven to be problematic? Is everyone going to be required to upgrade their systems to get the new version which will also be obsolete before the first chip is made? What about the even worse possibility that it is taken over and used for nefarious purposes such as malware or locking you out of your own system?

There's a reason Intel's Palladium was shot down about twenty years ago. Too many people are like the boiling frogs from the old saying. The heat has only been slowly turned up over time so they don't notice or don't care about what is happening. Not only do these people not care, they're defending and cheering on those who keep turning up the heat.
While I get where you're coming from, especially WRT Palladium, microsoft today isn't the microsoft of 2000-2004 - and the industry today isn't the industry of 2004 either. Linux/Android/etc are far more mature (there are real alternatives, somewhat), computers are far more ubiquitous, and more importantly, security issues are both far more concerning and much quicker to be discovered / PoCed / released into the wild than they were back then. If you take the good ideas from Palladium (curtained memory, trusted apps (assuming you can trust any app you want), decryption only by trusted devices, etc) than something like T2/TPM are good ideas - especially if there's a way to securely back up the key (and easily too, since general users and all that jazz). White list instead of black list - keeps a lot of the easy exploits out because they're simply not allowed to run or access data. That's the GOAL, at least - and as long as I can specify an app as trusted, then I'm cool with that. Will cut down (hopefully) on the number of easy wins for folks out there doing nefarious things.

Secure Boot just verifies that hte OS certificate is valid, and matched to the one stored in the TPM. So get a blank TPM, and store your own keys in it (grossly simplifying, of course).

I'm willing to wait and see how this plays out - forcing people to use SOME security (instead of none) isn't a bad goal. We all know idiot users.
Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft.

I primarily just play the first 2 right now.
Ah, I don't do MMOs anymore. Quit Eve in 2012 :p
 

DukenukemX

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And being tied to cloud services could not have been completely unacceptable 20 years ago as there was no cloud to not accept, if you see what I mean.
You do realize that "cloud" is just normie talk for "it runs on someone else's computer"? Stuff ran on someone else's computer 20 years ago. Just saying.

It's pretty clear that people are going to be able to run Windows 11 on anything Windows 10 can run on if they care enough to try. The fact that MS has straight-up said that the requirements are flexible for OEMs means that the OS will always have a way to work properly without a TPM Module, Secureboot, etc. They wouldn't leave that door open for OEMs if it resulted in a broken OS.
To be fair, I doubt OEMs are the ones not to support TPM and SecureBoot. So it's unlikely to even be allowed. Even if it was then we could see a lot of problems with software compatibility as Microsoft could push for software to make use of TPM. This is not a new concept as a lot of machines sold with special software would require a special USB key to verify ownership of the software. Just another layer of encryption that's going to get defeated while pissing off a bunch of people who can't run the latest Windows.
This thread has mainly turned into an echo-chamber of Linux users patting each other on the back.
When was the last time you see a Linux distro release a tool to check to see if your 3 year old computer could run the latest version of a Linux OS? You may not like this but it seems Microsoft has created the year of Linux, and it's about the same time Windows 11 is released.

a6frqvd2yz771.png
x3kxew2luz771.jpg
xilx4qabw8i51.jpg
 

cybereality

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I'm okay with cloud services if they are run securely. For example, with end-to-end encryption, you should be relatively safe from snoopers and data mining companies.

Also, if the company is trust worthy, then even a hack of their servers would reveal nothing but encrypted garbage. Assuming you take them at their word.

I definitely have that for backup of stuff I'm working on, as well as source control, which is essential for development projects. Yes, you can host git locally, but I would be afraid of floods or fires, etc. and losing everything.
 

DukenukemX

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I'm okay with cloud services if they are run securely. For example, with end-to-end encryption, you should be relatively safe from snoopers and data mining companies.

Also, if the company is trust worthy, then even a hack of their servers would reveal nothing but encrypted garbage. Assuming you take them at their word.

I definitely have that for backup of stuff I'm working on, as well as source control, which is essential for development projects. Yes, you can host git locally, but I would be afraid of floods or fires, etc. and losing everything.
Considering how many companies are getting ransomware and the solution is to pay them a fee, and a lot of times they get ransomwared right back because nothing else was done but pay the ransom, I really don't have much faith in cloud computing.
 

Camberwell

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You do realize that "cloud" is just normie talk for "it runs on someone else's computer"? Stuff ran on someone else's computer 20 years ago. Just saying.
Which is why I was careful to say cloud services. How many commercially available cloud services were there 20 years ago? Just saying.
 

Lakados

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In that fictional scenario, what quality level do you see them allowing Linux users without TPM to have?
My REHL production servers all utilize TPM and all data on them is encrypted. I don’t see a reason not too and I think Linux should do a better job of making it easier to implement, then get Amazon and Microsoft onboard so it’s cooked into their ready to deploy images in Azure and AWS. It would stop like 99% of the daily data breach reports we all seem to get flooded with at this stage. Honestly the Linux community is based around the concepts of security and stability often at the expense of the user experience which is what makes it a great server platform and in my opinion a less than optimal desktop one. If any community could make TPM great and an industrial standard I think it’s the Linux one, the fact they haven’t to date is a shame.
 

Red Falcon

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I thought he was talking about the hardware, not the OS...
Even so, the hardware is beyond capable, save for the TPM, but the incompatible CPU nonsense with Windows 11 is just pure Corporatism from Microsoft, and possibly Intel.
Kind of funny how WIntel was the savior of computing back in the 1990s, and today has finally lived long enough to be the 'villain' - I think the Joker would have something to say about all of this.
 

nilepez

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Even so, the hardware is beyond capable, save for the TPM, but the incompatible CPU nonsense with Windows 11 is just pure Corporatism from Microsoft, and possibly Intel.
Kind of funny how WIntel was the savior of computing back in the 1990s, and today has finally lived long enough to be the 'villain' - I think the Joker would have something to say about all of this.
MS was much more of a villain in the 90s than today, or have you forgotten that windows wasn't finished until Lotus 123 didn't work?
And honestly, I don't get the fuss. 10 will live on for at least 4 more years. By then most will have more than enough of a reason to upgrade a ~10 (or older) year old computer, if not older.

That said, last I read, MS pulled the compatibility tool and said they'd re-release it later with updated spec requirements. Nevertheless I do not expect mine to be on the list, since it's a Skylake CPU which has known security issues.
I'll probably build a new one once the H/W squeeze ends....it'll be good for my dad, since his computer has a cpu that's ~14 years old, which, even for him, is too slow.
 

nilepez

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You do realize that "cloud" is just normie talk for "it runs on someone else's computer"? Stuff ran on someone else's computer 20 years ago. Just saying.


To be fair, I doubt OEMs are the ones not to support TPM and SecureBoot. So it's unlikely to even be allowed. Even if it was then we could see a lot of problems with software compatibility as Microsoft could push for software to make use of TPM. This is not a new concept as a lot of machines sold with special software would require a special USB key to verify ownership of the software. Just another layer of encryption that's going to get defeated while pissing off a bunch of people who can't run the latest Windows.

When was the last time you see a Linux distro release a tool to check to see if your 3 year old computer could run the latest version of a Linux OS? You may not like this but it seems Microsoft has created the year of Linux, and it's about the same time Windows 11 is released.

View attachment 370582
View attachment 370583
View attachment 370584
For linux users, it's always the year of the great Linux migration. 10 years from now we'll still be talking about the great Linux migration. Some of will die awaiting the year of the Linux Desktop.

But it is interesting that this release might be the one where the new release is criticized because allegedly nobody wants the "awful" updates they made and because the requirements prevent those people for updating to the new OS.
 

Mazzspeed

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For linux users, it's always the year of the great Linux migration. 10 years from now we'll still be talking about the great Linux migration. Some of will die awaiting the year of the Linux Desktop.

But it is interesting that this release might be the one where the new release is criticized because allegedly nobody wants the "awful" updates they made and because the requirements prevent those people for updating to the new OS.
Yeah, there's always someone that thinks the year of the Linux desktop is a rolling joke - The reality is the desktop OS market is disheveled and dying. I look at Windows 10 in it's current fat fingered iteration making poor use of screen real estate, I look at MacOS and the fact that with every release it's looking more like iOS, and I understand that the desktop OS as people know it is in it's death throws.

So harp on about the year of the Linux desktop all you like, pretty soon it just may be the only true desktop OS option available.
 

DukenukemX

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And honestly, I don't get the fuss. 10 will live on for at least 4 more years. By then most will have more than enough of a reason to upgrade a ~10 (or older) year old computer, if not older.
Is my AMD FX 8350 a joke to you? Actually I got two of them. They already run Linux.
 

lopoetve

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You do realize that "cloud" is just normie talk for "it runs on someone else's computer"? Stuff ran on someone else's computer 20 years ago. Just saying.


To be fair, I doubt OEMs are the ones not to support TPM and SecureBoot. So it's unlikely to even be allowed. Even if it was then we could see a lot of problems with software compatibility as Microsoft could push for software to make use of TPM. This is not a new concept as a lot of machines sold with special software would require a special USB key to verify ownership of the software. Just another layer of encryption that's going to get defeated while pissing off a bunch of people who can't run the latest Windows.
That's not how TPM works, nor secure boot. A license dongle is drastically different than "is the digital signature on this binary valid and accepted?" - one is to make sure you paid for something, the other is to make sure someone didn't insert an etherium miner into your copy of Notepad++. Especially since NO ONE bothers to run the SHA hash of a downloaded binary as it is!
When was the last time you see a Linux distro release a tool to check to see if your 3 year old computer could run the latest version of a Linux OS? You may not like this but it seems Microsoft has created the year of Linux, and it's about the same time Windows 11 is released.

View attachment 370582
Nope, because most people don't CARE. As for Linux, they're free to support/not support what they wish. There was still some outcry when they dropped i386 support from the mainline kernel, but they did it for the same reason that microsoft now is:

Support costs a @#%!^ load of money. If you limit what is officially supported, then you don't have to test/fix/secure against esoteric whack-ass bugs from a 12 year old chip, especially since the home market is a ~small~ part of their core revenue stream. On the Linux side, that was DONATED time and energy that could be placed elsewhere - on Microsoft's side, yeah, it's dollars - dollars that they don't get a ton of from Users (when's the last time you paid full price for a Windows license?), but DO get from Corporations (enterprise use cases pay a LOT). Corporations, however, tend to be on a 5 year refresh cycle... which means that Skylake is coming off right now, and by release, Kaby lake will be too. Exactly on time for the next release of windows. They support the stuff that the enterprise world will want them to support.

Now, that doesn't mean it won't work fine - it probably will. But if it doesn't, they're not obligated to fix something on an old 8350 either.

Here's the thing - Apple does this today. If you can't verify the signature on a downloaded binary, it won't RUN. They do it with a certificate check against an online repo. You can override, easily enough - but for most people, it just cuts down on security breaches. How many times have you seen apple use it as a DRM method (for software mind you, not talking about movies/audio, which isn't entirely in their control).
You're not wrong. The other thing is - the Majority of Linux Users CARE more than the majority of windows users.
My REHL production servers all utilize TPM and all data on them is encrypted. I don’t see a reason not too and I think Linux should do a better job of making it easier to implement, then get Amazon and Microsoft onboard so it’s cooked into their ready to deploy images in Azure and AWS. It would stop like 99% of the daily data breach reports we all seem to get flooded with at this stage. Honestly the Linux community is based around the concepts of security and stability often at the expense of the user experience which is what makes it a great server platform and in my opinion a less than optimal desktop one. If any community could make TPM great and an industrial standard I think it’s the Linux one, the fact they haven’t to date is a shame.
This. As do my lab systems, my VDI desktops, etc.
Even so, the hardware is beyond capable, save for the TPM, but the incompatible CPU nonsense with Windows 11 is just pure Corporatism from Microsoft, and possibly Intel.
Kind of funny how WIntel was the savior of computing back in the 1990s, and today has finally lived long enough to be the 'villain' - I think the Joker would have something to say about all of this.
TPM is done in software from... Haswell on? Microcode on the chip. Your CPU will probably work - it just won't be SUPPORTED by them, but there's always an override.
As for the second - LOL.
What's the difference between cloud storage and ftp?
One's a protocol, the other a conceptual idea. Also, one is manual, the other is integrated into the FS in various forms. rsync would be a better comparison.
Is my AMD FX 8350 a joke to you? Actually I got two of them. They already run Linux.
Yep. Punted the last of those space heaters a year ago - I'll point out the Phenom II that predated them is still around, but fuck Bulldozer.
 

Aurelius

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Yeah, there's always someone that thinks the year of the Linux desktop is a rolling joke - The reality is the desktop OS market is disheveled and dying. I look at Windows 10 in it's current fat fingered iteration making poor use of screen real estate, I look at MacOS and the fact that with every release it's looking more like iOS, and I understand that the desktop OS as people know it is in it's death throws.

So harp on about the year of the Linux desktop all you like, pretty soon it just may be the only true desktop OS option available.
Linux still isn't going to make significant inroads until it's aimed at the mainstream — not an enthusiast's idea of the mainstream, the actual mainstream.

The fantasy is that Windows PC buyers will switch to Linux in a fit of rage and revel in all the control and openness they've been missing. The reality? Unless the major desktop platforms truly go off the rails (and they haven't), people will either keep using Windows or (among well-heeled customers) switch to Macs. Real, everyday people are just interested in systems that accomplish common tasks reliably and quickly; they don't care that Windows is wasting some screen space or that macOS looks a bit more like iOS this year. And they certainly aren't interested in Linux ideology.
 

lopoetve

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Linux still isn't going to make significant inroads until it's aimed at the mainstream — not an enthusiast's idea of the mainstream, the actual mainstream.

The fantasy is that Windows PC buyers will switch to Linux in a fit of rage and revel in all the control and openness they've been missing. The reality? Unless the major desktop platforms truly go off the rails (and they haven't), people will either keep using Windows or (among well-heeled customers) switch to Macs. Real, everyday people are just interested in systems that accomplish common tasks reliably and quickly; they don't care that Windows is wasting some screen space or that macOS looks a bit more like iOS this year. And they certainly aren't interested in Linux ideology.
This is the reason that enterprise sales focuses on business outcomes - not technology. Technology exists to deliver an ~outcome~ - and if your software delivers an outcome, it doesn't matter as much if it has strange requirements or not. It's about the tasks - and your average user won't notice.
 

cybereality

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Windows will not control the market forever "just because". They haven't really been innovating and, like Intel, they could easily lose out to a competent competitor.

As we see, Chrome OS has already surpassed macOS for the quarter. Not exactly the desktop Linux we were hoping for, but is technically a Linux kernel.

1625066387818.png


https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...-desktop-operating-system-isnt-macos-anymore/

Steam is coming to Chrome OS later this year in Q3, which could be huge.

https://chromeunboxed.com/borealis-a-k-a-steam-will-live-in-the-chrome-os-settings-menu/

That really is Windows last hold out for desktop enthusiasts. With Valve investing so much in Proton, improvements on Linux and also bringing to Chrome OS (and possibly the SteamPal handheld), well Windows days are numbered.

Yes, businesses will likely stay on Windows for Office and certain proprietary software, but honestly the ship is going down.

Personally wouldn't run Chrome OS as a daily driver, since I need development tools, but for many people that is enough to use the web and cloud-based web apps. And soon they can game as well.
 
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