Windows 11 May Not Run on Early Ryzen, Threadripper, Skylake-X, or Any Pre-2016 Intel PC

Lakados

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On the bright side, the Anti-cheat in Windows 11 seems to be better. Supposedly lots of "gamers" installed 11 then started getting banned, they blamed 11 at first but after review, the game developers released a few statements that can be summed up as "You know why you were actually banned, Windows 11 had nothing to do with it!"
 

cjcox

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On the bright side, the Anti-cheat in Windows 11 seems to be better. Supposedly lots of "gamers" installed 11 then started getting banned, they blamed 11 at first but after review, the game developers released a few statements that can be summed up as "You know why you were actually banned, Windows 11 had nothing to do with it!"
But, note, if there is a difference, under Windows 11, it will be a better banning experience.
 

ElementDave

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Correct, none of my Enterprise/Education licenses qualify for the "free" upgrade from 7/8 to 10, but if I went into my VLSC page and got my updated MAK (multiple activation key) then placed a Windows 10 install media on the device I could begin that upgrade then just provide my key at the appropriate time in the installer and have it perform an upgrade that way. But the windows updater did not offer it as an option, 10 does at least give me the options to perform upgrades between the major releases but they are clearly placed in the optional updates section, I don't know if that is standard or not as I have never checked that in a home / pro machine because I don't really have access to any of those.

Go Team Enterprise. (y)

I use Enterprise as well, but as of Windows 7 (I skipped Vista) activation is handled by a KMS, which for me now requires establishing a VPN connection every six months when the nagware pops up to interrupt what I'm doing. I've been meaning to ask IT for a MAK, as remote KMS activation is such a pain -- especially as I often don't use Windows for extended lengths of time.

I try to refrain from asking easily researchable questions, but since I'm guessing you would know the answer: is a separate MAK needed for each device? I think the answer is "no" (of course installation to each separate device would count once the activation limit of the key), but it's been a while since I've looked into this.
 
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lopoetve

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Go Team Enterprise. (y)

I use Enterprise as well, but as of Windows 7 (I skipped Vista) activation is handled by a KMS, which for me now requires establishing a VPN connection every six months when the nagware pops up to interrupt what I'm doing. I've been meaning to ask IT for a MAK, as remote KMS activation is such a pain -- especially as I often don't use Windows for extended lengths of time.

I try to refrain from asking easily researchable questions, but since I'm guessing you would know the answer: is a separate MAK needed for each device? I think the answer is "no" (of course installation to each separate device would count once the activation limit of the key), but it's been a while since I've looked into this.
No, but with an EA they do t like giving out MAK. They just want you to use the VPN
 

Lakados

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Go Team Enterprise. (y)

I use Enterprise as well, but as of Windows 7 (I skipped Vista) activation is handled by a KMS, which for me now requires establishing a VPN connection every six months when the nagware pops up to interrupt what I'm doing. I've been meaning to ask IT for a MAK, as remote KMS activation is such a pain -- especially as I often don't use Windows for extended lengths of time.

I try to refrain from asking easily researchable questions, but since I'm guessing you would know the answer: is a separate MAK needed for each device? I think the answer is "no" (of course installation to each separate device would count once the activation limit of the key), but it's been a while since I've looked into this.
no MAK's are bulk there is a counter for them though so my current windows 10 MAK allows for 10,000 uses before I need a refresh on it but they roll them every 3 years when I renew my agreement.
 

travm

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On the bright side, the Anti-cheat in Windows 11 seems to be better. Supposedly lots of "gamers" installed 11 then started getting banned, they blamed 11 at first but after review, the game developers released a few statements that can be summed up as "You know why you were actually banned, Windows 11 had nothing to do with it!"
having been perma banned for nothing before, definitely not hacking, exploiting, or anything other than trying to play a damn game, I have absolutely 0 faith that the game devs have any idea what they are talking about. In fact, I expect this is more "fake news" than anything else. "look at all the hackers we banned, we're serious about anti-cheat".
 

nilepez

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I actually don't mind that 11 is pushing hardware requirements up. It's rare Microsoft really pushes the boundaries, so it's refreshing for once. However, I do think not 'officially' support Skylake, and Zen 1 is a bit too aggressive.
I guess my take is Skylake has some nasty bugs, so it's probably a good idea to leave them out, especially since 10 will be supported for 4 more years. Sometimes I feel the need to switch the OS, but I'm content with 10. It works well enough for my needs. But as soon as I upgrade, my MB/CPU, then I'm off to 11. My guess is that's a year or 2 off.
 

nilepez

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Except, desktop adoption is slowing in favor of mobile devices while Windows and MacOS morph into a touch interface as a result - So obviously Windows is not what they want.

As for your comment regarding Linux on the desktop, see point above. In the end, it might be the only true desktop OS left.
Again, I have NO IDEA what the touch elements are in 10. If they're there GOOD, but from my POV, 10 works the same as 7
 

nilepez

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Pushing what boundaries? Once the secure boot and tpm requirements are tossed Win11 runs as well as 10 does on the same hardware. There are no boundaries being pushed and I sure as hell don't want to see an OS pushing hardware boundaries since it means the OS is going to be getting in the way and using resources it doesn't need taking them away from the software I'm running on top of the OS.

The point of an OS is to be a base for other software to run on. That's it.
Which is why MS needs to change Windows to having nothing but a CLI. If people want a gui, they need to use FTP to download a gui for the desktop. Need a web browser...back to FTP. Make Windows DOS again.
Seriously, virtually nobody wants the stripped down OS you want. And TBH, windows is generally using very few CPU cycles...and if you mean ram, well I haven't worried about Ram in at least 10 years.

If MS wants to chew up 5 or 10GB of my ram, go for it. I've got 22GB sitting around and most of the time it's not being used. Not only that, but when I'm at my parents, I often use my dad's 14 year old computer and it runs just fine, despite having less ram (though 2 cores is limiting for some apps).
 
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Lakados

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Which is why MS needs to change Windows to having nothing but a CLI. If people want a gui, they need to use FTP to download a gui for the desktop. Need a web browser...back to FTP. Make Windows DOS again.
Seriously, virtually nobody wants the stripped down OS you want. And TBH, windows is generally using very few CPU cycles...and if you mean ram, well I haven't worried about Ram in at least 10 years.

If MS wants to chew up 5 or 10GB of my ram, go for it. I've got 22GB sitting around and most of the time it's not being used. Not only that, but when I'm at my parents, I often use my dad's 14 year old computer and it runs just fine, despite having less ram (though 2 cores is limiting for some apps).
Microsoft sells that, just install Windows server Essentials 2019 and choose not to install the “Desktop Experience” then the system basically just boots To Power Shell.
 

DukenukemX

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I do not agree but, that is ok, the difference between Zen1 and Zen3 is significant, very much so in gaming, at any resolution. Even Zen2 is noticeably better than Zen1 and Zen+.

Edit: In fact, this is the first time in a couple in at least 15 years that it is worth upgrading from one year to the next.
I'm sticking to my Ryzen 1700 and 2700X until there's a really good reason to upgrade. Zen3 is not that reason. Maybe Zen4?
This is why Linux has such an issue. Good luck with tech support. It only works when you walled garden the system.
For the general consumption anyway. People who develop Linux have 0 interest in improving the usability for plebs
Yall get technically support on Windows? Last time I called technically support they wanted a fee and their tactic is still turning it off and on again.
AMD will sell and ship some 4-6 million Ryzen CPU’s in a year, combined to private and OEM contractors.
Apple has shipped almost 6 million M1 MacBooks since their launch.
AMD is not capable of providing somebody like Apple enough CPU’s to meet their demand.
You also have to realize AMD’s current mobile offerings are not good and still loose to Intel there. Apples M1 watt for watt trounce everything in that power envelope in just about every aspect and it’s only a first gen part.
Last I heard AMD is kicking ass on mobile, but AMD is still perceived as the cheaper offer from Intel. It's going to be a while before the mindshare of Intel vs AMD is changed around. As someone already said AMD goes to the same source for production as Apple so increasing production isn't a problem.
Er... wait, what? People aren't going to notice that their systems are noticeably snappier, or that they don't have to plug in quite so often? The most common gripes that prompt laptop upgrades are "it's too slow" and "battery life is terrible." Yes, they will notice these improvements.
In most cases a slow laptop is one with a clogged heatsink. The solution is to tear it apart and clean out the dust. Hitting it with an air can is usually not enough. If battery life is terrible it's because the battery has worn out. You'd be surprised how many bulging batteries I've removed from laptops. Also the mechanical disk drives end up slowing down a lot due to age. Apple is not doing a better job at this compared to their competition. In fact, Apple is far worse at this like it's almost intentionally done.
Simultaneously, I haven't heard of many complaints that translated x86 apps are noticeably slower... and that's a temporary issue as more apps are ARM-native. Certainly many creative and productivity apps have already made the leap.
How many M1 users do you know that exist? While the lack of native ARM apps is temporary but how long would it take for ports to be done?
You say ARM wasn't designed for the desktop because you've never used a decent implementation. I'd say Apple's is the first — it's faster than x86 equivalents, and the software transition has been largely seamless. It's just a question of whether or not it scales well to higher-end systems.
How many ARM motherboards you see that I can plot into a case that has PCIE slots and etc? Not everything revolves around laptops and the definition of a laptop is now skewed. Anything with a keyboard and touchpad is not considered a laptop.
I can think of a few reasons. Most likely, Apple didn't think AMD was guaranteed to be a viable long-term solution. Remember how AMD briefly toppled Intel with early Athlon chips, only to lose its lead for years? Ryzen is doing well now, but it would be foolish of Apple to shift all its weight behind AMD only to have to consider flipping back if AMD trips up.
AMD lost to Intel because Intel played dirty and went to court and lost money to AMD for this. I doubt Intel has the power to do that yet again.
And as we've recently seen, custom silicon lets Apple do things that wouldn't be possible with comparable x86 chips. For example, the current iPad Pro uses an M1 chip — try stuffing a Ryzen Mobile CPU with a 15W TDP into a fanless tablet that still gets 10-plus hours of real-world use.
Oh yea, never seen a Ryzen stuffed into something that small. While not 10 plus hours it does get 5-6 hours which is better than the Nintendo Switches ARM's 4 hours. Not exactly designed by a crack team of engineers but 11 guys in their basement.
And while this certainly helps Apple, it also means that the company can be more aggressive about refreshing products. No more having to wait a year and a half (or more) just because Intel either doesn't have a chip update or produced an upgrade so meaningless that there's no point to using it. I'd say that helps users if it leads to computers that make meaningful advances each year rather than "it's a few percentage points faster, maybe."
I mean yea but now Apple only has themselves to blame when they fall behind.
 

travm

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Yall get technically support on Windows? Last time I called technically support they wanted a fee and their tactic is still turning it off and on again.
They have a knowledge base that actually has up to date and useful information in it... Also turning it on and off often does fix the problem, that is step 1, almost every time.

The point is, technical support exists for windows, it does not for linux.
 

Aurelius

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In most cases a slow laptop is one with a clogged heatsink. The solution is to tear it apart and clean out the dust. Hitting it with an air can is usually not enough. If battery life is terrible it's because the battery has worn out. You'd be surprised how many bulging batteries I've removed from laptops. Also the mechanical disk drives end up slowing down a lot due to age. Apple is not doing a better job at this compared to their competition. In fact, Apple is far worse at this like it's almost intentionally done.
Most cases? Really? Do you have empirical evidence for that? (Of course you don't.) I'm talking about systems no longer meeting modern needs. For example, my 2013 MacBook Pro is still fast as far as the general GUI and casual use goes, but it struggles to handle the kind of workloads I need to place on it these days.

Yes, often battery life degrades, but often replacements come because the fresh battery life wasn't that great to start with. That MBP still delivers reasonably good battery life in part because it was offering 9-10 hours of real-world use when new.

And no, Apple is not "far worse" at this. I know my system won't represent everyone, but I've seen plenty of people hang on to Mac laptops for several years or more and upgrade mainly because their needs have evolved.


How many M1 users do you know that exist? While the lack of native ARM apps is temporary but how long would it take for ports to be done?
There should be several million of them right now, based on sales figures; my fiancée is one of them. Ports don't take all that long... even Adobe already has most of its apps ported over.


How many ARM motherboards you see that I can plot into a case that has PCIE slots and etc? Not everything revolves around laptops and the definition of a laptop is now skewed. Anything with a keyboard and touchpad is not considered a laptop.
Oh, I know it doesn't, but most computers sold are laptops... and that's been true for over a decade. Besides, you're sidestepping the point — that Apple's implementation is the first to show that ARM in conventional computers can work very well. Yes, expandable PC towers are a significant challenge, but ARM doesn't have to completely satisfy everyone overnight.


Oh yea, never seen a Ryzen stuffed into something that small. While not 10 plus hours it does get 5-6 hours which is better than the Nintendo Switches ARM's 4 hours. Not exactly designed by a crack team of engineers but 11 guys in their basement.
The Switch gets 4.5 to 9 hours, but never let a thing like "facts" get in the way.

The Aya Neo is neat, but it's also three times as thick as the thickest iPad Pro with a smaller screen, more weight and roughly half the battery life. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for high-performance x86 tablets.
 
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Lakados

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Last I heard AMD is kicking ass on mobile, but AMD is still perceived as the cheaper offer from Intel. It's going to be a while before the mindshare of Intel vs AMD is changed around. As someone already said AMD goes to the same source for production as Apple so increasing production isn't a problem.
AMD’s mobile offerings are neck and neck with Intel’s the competition there is good. But AMD isn’t really making any because they still trying to make good on their Sony and Microsoft contracts (which again they under delivered), while attempting to get their GPU’s to market (which they’ve been failing to do), but they have been getting a good number of desktop CPU’s out where they are crushing it.

From a Tomshardware review on the Tiger Lake-H series: https://www.tomshardware.com/features/intel-tiger-lake-h-11th-gen-benchmarks-8-core
"In productivity testing, our early benchmarks show a leap for Intel and its 10nm SuperFin process, especially in multi-core workloads. But AMD's best, the Ryzen 9 5900HX still puts up a fight in some areas"
1625936999777.png

How many M1 users do you know that exist? While the lack of native ARM apps is temporary but how long would it take for ports to be done?
Apple reports they have sold 7.4 million M1 powered devices since their launch.
Apple has made the port from Intel to M1 about as smooth as it could be Xcode does 90% of the heavy lifting.
 
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ElementDave

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No, but with an EA they do t like giving out MAK. They just want you to use the VPN
Thanks. Obtaining a MAK isn't a problem in this case, but it's understandable that KMS is preferred by organizations in general.
 
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Comixbooks

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Stardock totally wiped this UI with any of their skins back in the Win XP days. WIN 10 was so hard to skin this version might be totally unskinable.
 

cyclone3d

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Microsoft sells that, just install Windows server Essentials 2019 and choose not to install the “Desktop Experience” then the system basically just boots To Power Shell.
Server Essentials is a huge turd. I installed it once for an SQL server and after having to go searching for all the specific commands to install everything I needed I swore to never use that trash again.

What took me multiple hours in the CLI could have taken me like 30 minutes if I used Server Standard.

And to top it off, managing anything in Server Essentials is also a huge gigantic pain in the rear.

There are multiple guides out there on how to install some basic gui stuff so it is actually somewhat usable.
 

Lakados

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Server Essentials is a huge turd. I installed it once for an SQL server and after having to go searching for all the specific commands to install everything I needed I swore to never use that trash again.

What took me multiple hours in the CLI could have taken me like 30 minutes if I used Server Standard.

And to top it off, managing anything in Server Essentials is also a huge gigantic pain in the rear.

There are multiple guides out there on how to install some basic gui stuff so it is actually somewhat usable.
That’s my point, the guy I was responding too was wanting a windows OS that was just a command line that you could pick and choose what components to install. Nobody actually wants that anymore it takes forever and it’s confusing. Some people are all but we do that all the time in Linux and that’s only easy because you’ve been doing it for some 20 years and know the syntax. Give that same UI a different but far more functional syntax and suddenly it’s garbage, unless of course you already know Power She’ll commands then it’s super easy and efficient.
 

cyclone3d

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And you can use PowerShell in the regular Server versions.

And it isn't just about knowing PowerShell. To install or configure anything, you have to use very specific commands for each piece of software.

CLI only for Windows just doesn't make sense.

Why anybody would want to subject themselves to CLI only Windows seems to me like they must like torturing themselves... either that or they want to be able to bill 3-4x the time that they could on regular Windows.
 

pendragon1

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CLI only for Windows just doesn't make sense.

Why anybody would want to subject themselves to CLI only Windows seems to me like they must like torturing themselves... either that or they want to be able to bill 3-4x the time that they could on regular Windows.
That’s my point, the guy I was responding too was wanting a windows OS that was just a command line
Thats his point...
 

DukenukemX

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Most cases? Really? Do you have empirical evidence for that? (Of course you don't.)
Do you have evidence of M1 users in the wild? Of course you don't. The difference here is that I actually repair computers while you don't.
I'm talking about systems no longer meeting modern needs.
That's rarely the case. In most situations it's because something started to fail but not fail entirely to break the unit. So most people perceive the system slowing down. Most people think it's old but in reality your machine needs repair.
For example, my 2013 MacBook Pro is still fast as far as the general GUI and casual use goes, but it struggles to handle the kind of workloads I need to place on it these days.
Oh yea, like what workloads? You talk about cloud replacing the need for native apps so why even need a modern powerful computer when the old 2013 MacBook Pro could do the job?
Yes, often battery life degrades, but often replacements come because the fresh battery life wasn't that great to start with. That MBP still delivers reasonably good battery life in part because it was offering 9-10 hours of real-world use when new.
I just replaced a battery on a iPhone 6S and now have to replace a batter on a iPad because both go from 100% to 10% within an instant. Not all batteries wear out where you lose maybe an hour or two of use.
And no, Apple is not "far worse" at this. I know my system won't represent everyone, but I've seen plenty of people hang on to Mac laptops for several years or more and upgrade mainly because their needs have evolved.
I have a PowerBook G4 that surprisingly still holds a decent charge, and a 2011 MacBook Air that doesn't die instantly though the battery is definitely worn. The fact is Apple doesn't cool their products as effectively as other manufacturers and doesn't have a good track record on fuses that actually blow before other components on the circuit board. They make it intentionally harder to fix their products. Wasn't it a few years ago when Apple was caught slowing down consumers iOS products instead of telling them their battery is bad?
There should be several million of them right now, based on sales figures; my fiancée is one of them. Ports don't take all that long... even Adobe already has most of its apps ported over.
How many do you personally know, not how many Apple sold. Your wife doesn't count because bias. Adobe products aren't everything. It's good that Adobe is porting over their products to ARM but we all knew Adobe would.
The Switch gets 4.5 to 9 hours, but never let a thing like "facts" get in the way.
Fact is the 9 hour estimate is if you're watching a video or something lite. So realistically if you're playing Breath of the Wild it's 4.5 hours at best. The older model Switches were 2.5 to 6.5 hours.
The Aya Neo is neat, but it's also three times as thick as the thickest iPad Pro with a smaller screen, more weight and roughly half the battery life. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for high-performance x86 tablets.
Considering the form factor is different, how does it compare to the ARM based Switch? Again, also developed by 11 guys from a no name company. Wait until Valve releases their portable x86 console.
 

Aurelius

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Do you have evidence of M1 users in the wild? Of course you don't. The difference here is that I actually repair computers while you don't.
Later in your replies you directly acknowledge that Apple has sold millions... what, do you think these systems just vanish into the ether? My fiancée has one, so I see it in use on a daily basis; I know friends and colleagues who own them.


That's rarely the case. In most situations it's because something started to fail but not fail entirely to break the unit. So most people perceive the system slowing down. Most people think it's old but in reality your machine needs repair.
Still haven't provided evidence of this. Sometimes that's the case, such as degraded batteries and clogged cooling systems, but keep in mind that your experience repairing computers skews things somewhat — the people who upgrade due to workloads (or just a general inability to handle modern tasks) don't come to you.


Oh yea, like what workloads? You talk about cloud replacing the need for native apps so why even need a modern powerful computer when the old 2013 MacBook Pro could do the job?
How's Photoshop, Slack, iMovie (hey, I don't need Final Cut/Premiere) a dozen-plus browser tabs and media playback, many of those running at the same time? My old laptop is surprisingly competent at those jobs, but there's no question that I and the apps themselves are asking more of the MBP than I was in 2013.

And yes, many people can get by with the cloud just fine, but not all of us... and some cloud uses will be demanding regardless. If you have a ton of web apps open, you're gonna need more than an entry-level machine no matter what the OS or chip. It's just that everyday users aren't as chained to proprietary Windows apps as they were several years ago.


I just replaced a battery on a iPhone 6S and now have to replace a batter on a iPad because both go from 100% to 10% within an instant. Not all batteries wear out where you lose maybe an hour or two of use.
I know they don't, but that doesn't really address the point. If you have a Windows laptop that only musters 5-6 hours of basic real-world use, you might replace it simply because the battery life isn't enough — especially once it starts degrading. The longer a laptop's real battery life, the less likely you are to scramble for a new machine. iPhone battery life usually hasn't been much more than "good enough," although the larger phones (Plus and Max models, usually) tend to deliver quite a lot.


I have a PowerBook G4 that surprisingly still holds a decent charge, and a 2011 MacBook Air that doesn't die instantly though the battery is definitely worn. The fact is Apple doesn't cool their products as effectively as other manufacturers and doesn't have a good track record on fuses that actually blow before other components on the circuit board. They make it intentionally harder to fix their products. Wasn't it a few years ago when Apple was caught slowing down consumers iOS products instead of telling them their battery is bad?
That's only really true some times, even for laptops. And I wouldn't say Apple is intentionally making things difficult to repair out of spite. Rather, it's that the company has certain design goals in mind, and sucks to be you if that hinders repairs.

Yeah, Apple's iOS throttling was unfortunate, but the issue was the lack of transparency and options, not the throttling itself. Apple was actually trying to extend the use of devices... but it didn't stop to think that people wouldn't know what was happening, or might accept the risks of refusing to throttle (such as sudden shut-downs). That's not what a company does if it's trying to push you to a new phone before you're ready.


Fact is the 9 hour estimate is if you're watching a video or something lite. So realistically if you're playing Breath of the Wild it's 4.5 hours at best. The older model Switches were 2.5 to 6.5 hours.
The 4.5 hours is with more intense games, so that minimum is higher than the maximum you claimed. And I know about older Switch battery life expectations... I have one.


Considering the form factor is different, how does it compare to the ARM based Switch? Again, also developed by 11 guys from a no name company. Wait until Valve releases their portable x86 console.
Still gets worse battery life overall (though it's acceptable), and it is impressive given the scale... but the Aya Neo and Valve's rumored system are still governed by the limits of x86 chip power consumption and heat output. Apple can stuff the M1 into something thinner, quieter and longer lasting while maintaining at least comparable (and possibly better) performance. The Aya Neo is a good technical achievement... but call me when Microsoft can build a Ryzen-based tablet that has the profile of a Surface Pro X and performance better than a regular Surface Pro. Apple can do that right now.
 

1_rick

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And I wouldn't say Apple is intentionally making things difficult to repair out of spite. Rather, it's that the company has certain design goals in mind, and sucks to be you if that hinders repairs.
I don't think they do it out of spite per se, but a combination of your next sentence and they'd rather have 100% of the pie of everything relating to their own devices. Why let someone else repair the device and make some cash when they can do it and get that money?
 

viscountalpha

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There is no doubt windows 7 was the best windows interface ever... Why are the working to break it more?

Start menu in win 7 was best it could be... Win 10 was several huge steps backwards. This seems worse

Windows 10 is acceptable but this kind of nonsense gives me the urge to wash my hands of all this garbage. At what point do you say "ok, This is gone too far!" ?!?
 
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travm

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Windows 10 is acceptable but this kind of nonsense gives me the urge to wash my hands of all this garbage. At what point do you say "ok, This is gone too far!" ?!?
i agree, but it just doesnt work as well as 7. It's very counter intuitive relatively.
 

cybereality

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Not sure why everyone has a hard on for the start menu. Don't think I've used it once in like 10 years.
 

Vermillion

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Not sure why everyone has a hard on for the start menu. Don't think I've used it once in like 10 years.
You're not looking at the bigger picture. 99.9% of the population isn't like those of us on this forum.

At work we recently moved a supposedly long time Mac user to Windows. The transition wasn't very fun for him.

I was helping him santizie his Mac of company data and I said "open finder".

"What is finder?" Is the question I received in return. So that tells me this guy isn't really a Mac person. He simply was using it because someone told him its what illustrators use for Adobe. In the end he's dumb as can be on a computer. People like him make the vast majority of users of any platform.

So many computer users are dumb as a rock. Those users will always use the mouse to navigate the start menu instead of searching.
 

cybereality

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Maybe they just don't know how it works. I mean, people know how to type on a keyboard. It's not a stretch to type the first 3 letters of what you're looking for and pressing enter.
 

travm

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You're not looking at the bigger picture. 99.9% of the population isn't like those of us on this forum.

At work we recently moved a supposedly long time Mac user to Windows. The transition wasn't very fun for him.

I was helping him santizie his Mac of company data and I said "open finder".

"What is finder?" Is the question I received in return. So that tells me this guy isn't really a Mac person. He simply was using it because someone told him its what illustrators use for Adobe. In the end he's dumb as can be on a computer. People like him make the vast majority of users of any platform.

So many computer users are dumb as a rock. Those users will always use the mouse to navigate the start menu instead of searching.
my issue with start menu, is in windows 7, it was the search... you clicked start, then started typing. It just bloody worked. In win 10, you click start, start typing, and its searching the damn web, bringing up mostly irrelevelant results, while i'm like, I know i've installed this, why cant you find it damnit. Only to find out I have to spell it exactly right, and completely, no shortcuts.
 

DukenukemX

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Later in your replies you directly acknowledge that Apple has sold millions... what, do you think these systems just vanish into the ether? My fiancée has one, so I see it in use on a daily basis; I know friends and colleagues who own them.
I don't acknowledge they sold millions, I'm just going by your information. I don't know if they did or didn't sell millions.
Still haven't provided evidence of this. Sometimes that's the case, such as degraded batteries and clogged cooling systems, but keep in mind that your experience repairing computers skews things somewhat — the people who upgrade due to workloads (or just a general inability to handle modern tasks) don't come to you.
They do if they want advice, but people who do productivity work don't need my advice as they know what they want, which if they ask me they're just looking for a confirmation bias.
That's only really true some times, even for laptops. And I wouldn't say Apple is intentionally making things difficult to repair out of spite. Rather, it's that the company has certain design goals in mind, and sucks to be you if that hinders repairs.
If Apple does anything out of spite then that's a very expensive engineering choice. Bad design choices are done out of cheapness and planned obsolescence. More often the former than the latter.
Yeah, Apple's iOS throttling was unfortunate, but the issue was the lack of transparency and options, not the throttling itself.
How hard would it be to put a message on the screen letting you know how much your battery has degraded and needs to be replaced? It's the same reason why no computer sold tells you the temperature of your CPU or if the disk drive through SMART data has a lot of bad sectors. No computer warns you it's running hot or you should replace a faulty drive. At least nothing outside of servers.
Apple was actually trying to extend the use of devices... but it didn't stop to think that people wouldn't know what was happening, or might accept the risks of refusing to throttle (such as sudden shut-downs). That's not what a company does if it's trying to push you to a new phone before you're ready.
If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
Still gets worse battery life overall (though it's acceptable), and it is impressive given the scale... but the Aya Neo and Valve's rumored system are still governed by the limits of x86 chip power consumption and heat output. Apple can stuff the M1 into something thinner, quieter and longer lasting while maintaining at least comparable (and possibly better) performance.
Currently now... no you can't do that with AMD portable hardware. Though I'm waiting to see how AMD's new mobile Ryzen will perform. Though for Valve to use something like ARM would be asking developers to not only support Linux but also ARM as well. That's not going to go over to well with developers.
The Aya Neo is a good technical achievement... but call me when Microsoft can build a Ryzen-based tablet that has the profile of a Surface Pro X and performance better than a regular Surface Pro. Apple can do that right now.
The Aya Neo shows what can be done with a little effort. Personally couldn't care what Microsoft does with their Surface devices as they don't appeal to me and probably many other people. Though going Ryzen would again maintain that software compatibility. If Microsoft wanted to compete with Apple they would need to go with AMD and not Qualcomm for future Surface devices. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 11 is more for Surface like devices than anything else.
 

DukenukemX

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I think even less people want to move onto Windows 11 now. Microsoft should really rethink their need for TPM if they're going to pull this bullshit.
There is no doubt windows 7 was the best windows interface ever... Why are the working to break it more?
Because Microsoft has a massive money boner for making Windows run on tablets. This is basically Windows 8 REARMED!
Not sure why everyone has a hard on for the start menu. Don't think I've used it once in like 10 years.
That's because Microsoft has made the start button worse for the past 10 years. Windows 8 didn't have one and Windows 10 has flooded it with tiles which are just advertisements. If you want to see a good start menu then use Linux Mints version because it actually works unlike the crazy ass shit Windows 10 has going on. On Mint it's organized by category like Internet, Games, and Sound & Video. Makes it easy to find what I want, or I could just type what I'm looking for and find it. Windows 10 just alphabetizes everything so good luck finding what you're looking for. Sometimes I forget the name of the app I'm looking for but I do remember the function it does. I know I need to scan something but I forget what it's called, but oh wait I'll look under the Graphics section and there's gscan2pdf. Microsoft has done nothing to innovate the start menu, which makes sense since they want to remove it.
 

Ranulfo

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SmokeRngs

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I think even less people want to move onto Windows 11 now. Microsoft should really rethink their need for TPM if they're going to pull this bullshit.

Because Microsoft has a massive money boner for making Windows run on tablets. This is basically Windows 8 REARMED!

That's because Microsoft has made the start button worse for the past 10 years. Windows 8 didn't have one and Windows 10 has flooded it with tiles which are just advertisements. If you want to see a good start menu then use Linux Mints version because it actually works unlike the crazy ass shit Windows 10 has going on. On Mint it's organized by category like Internet, Games, and Sound & Video. Makes it easy to find what I want, or I could just type what I'm looking for and find it. Windows 10 just alphabetizes everything so good luck finding what you're looking for. Sometimes I forget the name of the app I'm looking for but I do remember the function it does. I know I need to scan something but I forget what it's called, but oh wait I'll look under the Graphics section and there's gscan2pdf. Microsoft has done nothing to innovate the start menu, which makes sense since they want to remove it.
And this is the exact argument to use every time people scream about always using search. I don't have a perfect memory of every single piece of software I've installed much less the exact spelling. The longer it's been since the software was used the less likely I'll remember it. The nice structure of a well designed start menu means I can find what I'm looking for rather than staring blankly at a search box until I can rummage through my memory for the name of what I'm looking for. It also takes less time to go through the start menu.

This doesn't even take into account the vast majority of computer users who have a much worse memory for software names and spellings than me. Nor does it account for those who don't have the best memory due to age. Those people are not using search to launch software. It's also useless to attempt to have a shortcut on the desktop for every piece of software or attempt to "pin" it all to some sort of launcher.

"Search" zealots don't spend a single moment thinking of any users other than themselves because even a few seconds of thought would bring the realization that the vast majority of users don't or can't memorize every single program they use at some point.
 

Aurelius

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I don't think they do it out of spite per se, but a combination of your next sentence and they'd rather have 100% of the pie of everything relating to their own devices. Why let someone else repair the device and make some cash when they can do it and get that money?
Wouldn't rule it out, at least for repairs where that would make sense (I imagine some repairs are just too cost-prohibitive).
 

Aurelius

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How hard would it be to put a message on the screen letting you know how much your battery has degraded and needs to be replaced? It's the same reason why no computer sold tells you the temperature of your CPU or if the disk drive through SMART data has a lot of bad sectors. No computer warns you it's running hot or you should replace a faulty drive. At least nothing outside of servers.
I don't know that it'd be difficult, but Apple's MO is "let's make it seamless..." which means trying to do things for people in the background if it believes they can be done automatically. Problem is that this is one of those situations where you really should tell users.


If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
It's entirely logical. Why would Apple pour resources into supporting devices for five or so years if it was going to arbitrarily throttle phones after two or three years? That'd be a whole lot of wasted effort.


The Aya Neo shows what can be done with a little effort. Personally couldn't care what Microsoft does with their Surface devices as they don't appeal to me and probably many other people. Though going Ryzen would again maintain that software compatibility. If Microsoft wanted to compete with Apple they would need to go with AMD and not Qualcomm for future Surface devices. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 11 is more for Surface like devices than anything else.
This is why I've wondered if Windows 11 may be this decade's Windows 8. That is, it's Microsoft's attempt to chase after a specific computing experience (like tablets) whether or not people want it, and at the expense of everyone who doesn't need it. And that's what could tank sales.
 

lopoetve

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Maybe they just don't know how it works. I mean, people know how to type on a keyboard. It's not a stretch to type the first 3 letters of what you're looking for and pressing enter.
They don't, and they don't need to in order to accomplish the task before them.
 

SvenBent

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How hard would it be to put a message on the screen letting you know how much your battery has degraded and needs to be replaced? It's the same reason why no computer sold tells you the temperature of your CPU or if the disk drive through SMART data has a lot of bad sectors. No computer warns you it's running hot or you should replace a faulty drive. At least nothing outside of servers.

I agree that we should epexte more alaerts form our os like CPU throthling, but i do need to correct you on a technical incorrectness.
Windows WILL alert you with a message when you driver is "BAD" if you smart tresshold has reached it will warn you. however that tresholed is not just a first C5/C6 error,but its at the tresshold defined in the smart attributes.
 
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