Windows 11 available on October 5

Zarathustra[H]

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Man... we laugh at that, but in hindsight it was Microsoft's problem in a nutshell: Ballmer loved Windows too much. And he didn't realize that people bought iPhones, iPads, Macs and Android devices in part to get away from Windows.

I remember people saying stuff like "now that I have my iPhone I don't even need a computer anymore!" I always thought they were absolutely nuts.

Even games aside, you can't do half the things you do on a computer on a tablet or a phone. At least not well.

And I'm not even talking about heavy applications like games or engineering/science stuff.

It's gotten better since 2007, but even now, doing basic stuff like writing a letter, or putting together a spreadsheet, or even just typing a long email or looking at websites regularly is a worse experience on a mobile device.

Phones can do all of these things now, but I sure as hell would not want to type 2000 words on a phone, and I can't tell you how often I'm on a phone looking at some website and get frustrated and just go to my computer because it is so much better/easier to navigate.

Even right now while I am typing this post from my desktop, the reason I came down here and got distracted was because I wanted to order Thai food, and the website for the restaurant I am ordering from was frustrating on my phone.

I really think that things changed for the worse in or about 2007. Tech went from getting better and more exciting every year, to moving in the opposite direction and just getting dumber and dumber every year. I can think of two reasons for this. One is the launch of the first iPhone. Because no one wants to make two copies of eveything (one for phones and one for computers) this has resulted in the dumbing down of all content to meet the lowest common denominator of the phone user.

The other thing that happened in 2007 was the financial crisis. Before that many tech companies had at least some sort of values. Google had their "don't be evil" for instance, and they had ideals they were aligning themselves to. During the financial crisis many faced the real threat of vanishing revenues and/or investment funding and were forced to do things that were previously not on the table. it's amazing how fast "don't be evil" turned into "collect everyone's personal data and sell it to the highest bidder!"

The combination of the mobile revolution and the harsh economic considerations of the financial crisis have IMHO conspired to make just about everything worse. Before it was about the amazing stuff we could make. Now it's cold calculated statistics on how to collect personal information and monetize it, all while users are stuck with dumbed down mobile interfaces even when they are not using mobile devices.

If I could go back to a world before these two things, I would in an instant.
 
Last edited:

Lakados

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
4,565
Man... we laugh at that, but in hindsight it was Microsoft's problem in a nutshell: Ballmer loved Windows too much. And he didn't realize that people bought iPhones, iPads, Macs and Android devices in part to get away from Windows.
Not sure if they were buying it to get away from Windows, but Microsoft didn't have anything that did what they did better, easier, or with nearly as many features or tools. Microsoft was so wrapped up in their own shit that Apple just walked up and pantsed them.
 

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
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3,464
I remember people saying stuff like "now that I have my iPhone I don't even need a computer anymore!" I always thought they were absolutely nuts.

Even games aside, you can't do half the things you do on a computer on a tablet or a phone. At least not well.

And I'm not even talking about heavy applications like games or engineering/science stuff.

It's gotten better since 2007, but even now, doing basic stuff like writing a letter, or putting together a spreadsheet, or even just typing a long email or looking at websites.

Phones can do all of these things now, but I sure as hell would not want to type 2000 words on a phone, and I can't tell you how often I'm on a phone looking at some website and get frustrated and just go to my computer because it is so much better/easier to navigate.

Even right now while I am typing this post from my desktop, the reason I came down here and got distracted was because I wanted to order Thai food, and the website for the restaurant I am ordering from was frustrating on my phone.

I really think that things changed for the worse in or about 2007. Tech went from getting better and more exciting every year, to moving in the opposite direction and just getting dumber and dumber every year. I can think of two reasons for this. One is the launch of the first iPhone. Because no one wants to make two copies of eveything (one for phones and one for computers) this has resulted in the dumbing down of all content to meet the lowest common denominator of the phone user.

The other thing that happened in 2007 was the financial crisis. Before that many tech companies had at least some sort of values. Google had their "don't be evil" for instance, and they had ideals they were aligning themselves to. During the financial crisis many faced the real threat of vanishing revenues and/or investment funding and were forced to do things that were previously not on the table. it's amazing how fast "don't be evil" turned into "collect everyone's personal data and sell it to the highest bidder!"

The combination of the mobile revolution and the harsh economic considerations of the financial crisis have IMHO conspired to make just about everything worse. Before it was about the amazing stuff we could make. Now it's cold calculated statistics on how to collect personal information and monetize it, all while users are stuck with dumbed down mobile interfaces even when they are not using mobile devices.

If I could go back to a world before these two things, I would in an instant.
I was thinking more about how Microsoft tried to shoehorn Windows into spaces where it didn't really belong, like Windows Mobile/Phone and pure tablets. As if we were supposed to say "wow, that phone runs Windows," smash our iPhones and Galaxies against the wall, and buy the latest Windows phone so we could edit Excel sheets on the road. And I still get a kick out of how Apple managed to outsell the entire history of Windows tablet PCs with several months of iPads. Turns out Microsoft had completely misjudged the market
.
 

cybereality

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
8,317
I had one of those Windows CE phones years before the iPhone came out. It was actually kind of neat, but not practical as a mobile device.

Microsoft did have a product to market first, but they made a mistake thinking a desktop OS would work on mobile. And then they made another mistake thinking a mobile OS would work on desktop.

But I had a Surface 2-in-1 and honestly it was pretty decent. Probably could have still been using it, but I usually sell things after 1 year or so and get something new.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Hybrid server is actually pretty awesome its how I am running Exchange and Sharepoint now.

You have the local server where it handles say AD, Exchange, and you configure the basics there but it synchronizes with your O365 / Google Business accounts for password management licensing. So in my case Its a local Sharepoint & Exchange server and it is configured to be those services, I do all the configurations there but those are written back to O365 in the case of Exchange it doesn't actually contain any of the actual mailboxes just their configurations, and in Sharepoints case if you are in the building on the network then it automatically routes you to the local Sharepoint servers on the LAN, but if you are out of building it automatically goes back to O365's instance and any changes made in either location are kept synchronized in as close to real-time as my internet allows. But because everything is then kept in check by my local AD servers they only need to worry about one password, and any changes made in one location write back so it keeps things really smooth for the staff. It also lets me ditch ADFS entirely and use the O365 interface for that instead. Pretty much every vendor and service I deal with now has their application interface available in the O365 database and the one or two that arent I can create and register with a few simple steps. It is a huge time saver and completely removes the need for many of my edge servers which really helps improve network security, big time saver.

The biggest win for me overall is the decrease in system requirements, For Exchange 2019 running mailboxes you need to dedicate like 4+TB and 128GB in ram, and 16-32 cores depending on what services you are running. This isn't cheap in a server, but in hybrid mode, since it doesn't technically have the mailbox role enabled you get away with 16GB ram, 4 cores, and 128 GB of HDD space. Way more cost-effective in a virtual environment, the simplification of the backups.... such a money saver. Also removes my need for a VPN for most day to day things, only need to maintain it for Accounting as that old ass machine I am not opening up for external access, more security holes than I can count on that box (hasn't received a security patch since 2007, been in operation since 96)

TLDR;
Yes, it splits the services and data locally and with the cloud giving you the local controls enterprise users want with the ease of use that users want from a cloud environment.
Microsoft also ensures that Data doesn't cross borders, in my case they gave me specific DNS servers to use and to black list so my Canadian data does not hit any non-Canadian servers or Datacenters.
Hybrid configurations are an included option in O365 licensing.

Interesting.

I still think I'd prefer to run everything locally. On prem Exchange, and a file server with folder shares instead of SharePoint or any other collaboration solution.

The simplest implementation is always the best.
 

TheSlySyl

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,583

Lets take the best part of Windows the Task Bar lets make it only moveable in registry editor.
oh, oh fuck off microsoft.

I'm still gonna upgrade whenever my windows decides to automatically upgrade and i'll do the goddamn registry tweak to put the task bar on the left side of my screen where it takes up less screen space and is infinitely more convenient, but i've had a damn taskbar on the left side of my secondary screen for 10+ years.
What the fuck microsoft. What the fuck.

And thus will be the one and only time i'll ever complain about this missing feature and I'll move on with my life starting right now.
 

Lakados

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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Interesting.

I still think I'd prefer to run everything locally. On prem Exchange, and a file server with folder shares instead of SharePoint or any other collaboration solution.

The simplest implementation is always the best.
Once you get into the hundreds or thousands of users and your trying to coordinate backups, with security software, and the anti crypto virus protections, VPN’s, and all that other blah blah blah, I can assure you that SharePoint becomes the simpler option. And with our case Exchange comes in way cheaper using the hybrid solution, I can’t justify using the local when the hardware come in where it does for our users on 2019, and once I factor in AV, backups, and all the other amenities needed for hosting a full exchange 2019 accounting just looks at the two options puts the local option in the shredder and stamps the hybrid solution as approved.

Let’s put it this way, between Exchange and SharePoint, Microsoft for my Hybrid license has allotted me 9 Petabytes of cloud storage and I’m getting my monies worth.
 

Lakados

Supreme [H]ardness
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Any way to mine Chia with that?
According to BackBlaze, no (and of that 9.58PB I am at 54% used). Besides we have government subsidized electricity and solar arrays, Bitcoin/Etherium is a better option, and we seriously considered it but the startup costs and paperwork requirements are such that it was decided too risky.
 

pendragon1

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Messages
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Once you get into the hundreds or thousands of users and your trying to coordinate backups, with security software, and the anti crypto virus protections, VPN’s, and all that other blah blah blah, I can assure you that SharePoint becomes the simpler option. And with our case Exchange comes in way cheaper using the hybrid solution, I can’t justify using the local when the hardware come in where it does for our users on 2019, and once I factor in AV, backups, and all the other amenities needed for hosting a full exchange 2019 accounting just looks at the two options puts the local option in the shredder and stamps the hybrid solution as approved.

Let’s put it this way, between Exchange and SharePoint, Microsoft for my Hybrid license has allotted me 9 Petabytes of cloud storage and I’m getting my monies worth.
your answers were basically the exact answers i got when i asked our district's infrastructure guys why we didnt have our own servers for everything
 

GiGaBiTe

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
1,937
[/QUOTE]
You might be too young to remember, but especially in the early 2000s there was a lot of friction between Microsoft and the open-source world. That resulted in the use of some memorable language by Gates and Ballmer to describe Linux and more generally, open-source software. I'm pretty sure that's what GiGaBiTe was referring to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_and_open_source#Initial_stance_on_open_source

Yep, but more of their most abhorrent behavior was in the 90s with their cut throat business practices and EEE. Internet Explorer was a prime example, it held back the internet as a whole for over a decade, and we're still dealing with it today. There's a reason IE is still in Windows 10, there are still tons of business intranet applications and some internet services that require it and won't work without it.
 

trasixes

Gawd
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Messages
857
oh, oh fuck off microsoft.

I'm still gonna upgrade whenever my windows decides to automatically upgrade and i'll do the goddamn registry tweak to put the task bar on the left side of my screen where it takes up less screen space and is infinitely more convenient, but i've had a damn taskbar on the left side of my secondary screen for 10+ years.
What the fuck microsoft. What the fuck.

And thus will be the one and only time i'll ever complain about this missing feature and I'll move on with my life starting right now.

Registry tweak? It's an option in settings. Takes like 10 seconds to change to the left side.

Edit: Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and you aren't talking about the Start button, etc.
 

Lakados

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Messages
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your answers were basically the exact answers i got when i asked our district's infrastructure guys why we didnt have our own servers for everything
Yeah for all my good intentions at the end of the day I answer to an accounting department who answers to a board of directors who’s personal opinions on IT in schools is “In my day we had a pencil, a sheet of paper and a textbook and look where that got us”.

Looking at storage alone that 9.58PB costs me (in Canadian) $350 monthly plus my annual license of about $5000. So over 5 years which is the expected lifetime of a server is $46,000. Now let’s look at that locally, I would need the local storage, it’s hardware redundant backup, it’s storage backup, enough storage to deal with its shadow clones to deal with somebody accidentally deleting 8 pages out of a 50 page file and only noticing a week later, and an offline backup to protect against crypto viruses which now we are looking at needing just shy of 50PB. I can’t buy 50PB of disk space for $46,000 let alone the software licensing, server hardware, and network hardware to facilitate it.
 

pendragon1

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“In my day we had a pencil, a sheet of paper and a textbook and look where that got us”.... (in Canadian) ..... crypto viruses.....
i do miss those days in the classroom though. half the tech we have is just toys and distraction but theres constant whining about not enough money. oh and teacher HAVE to have new mac M1s...
im up here too eh. :)
hows your insurance increase looking for this year. i shit when i heard ours.

to kep it on topic, i left several systems running 11 there, to get the testing started. some of the admin will probably be the guinea pigs but theyll wait a few months before rolling it out, maybe even till spring. unlike the apple team the dove head first into a disaster last fall with day one roll out of m1/big sur. the lead quit in june over it, couldnt take the heat that finally came down but thats another thread...
 

Lakados

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i do miss those days in the classroom though. half the tech we have is just toys and distraction but theres constant whining about not enough money. oh and teacher HAVE to have new mac M1s...
im up here too eh. :)
hows your insurance increase looking for this year. i shit when i heard ours.

to kep it on topic, i left several systems running 11 there, to get the testing started. some of the admin will probably be the guinea pigs but theyll wait a few months before rolling it out, maybe even till spring. unlike the apple team the dove head first into a disaster last fall with day one roll out of m1/big sur. the lead quit in june over it, couldnt take the heat that finally came down but thats another thread...
Insurance on my end for data liability wasn’t bad, because they were happy with my precautions, but the playgrounds and parking lots got hit hard. Maintenance is going to have to get on task there.

I’m not even thinking about 11 yet, honestly for what 99% of the staff do outside the superficial UI changes there is no difference.

My Apple stuff is limited to a handful of users and a shit load of iPads. Jamf makes that really easy, though I need to update mine to account for better inventory tracking, when we only had a hundred or so the existing schema was fine but now that it had ballooned it’s not cutting the mustard.

Google nailed the inventory management and MDM for the Chromebooks it makes it too easy and administratively cheap to not use them. But keeping Google out of them after deployment is tricky, I might have to add another PA 3250 into the mix because of all the SSL traffic decrypting it all is just too taxing. Not that Google’s needs to be decrypted so much as straight up dropped with it mostly is. But everything is now “encrypted” and securing all that traffic is causing me a headache. But that SSL decryption is what saved it’s cost in insurance so I have to keep it up.
 

Youn

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
5,829
I like how Google removed the "don't be evil" motto from their company page. That says everything.
Nah, imagine meeting someone for the first time and they tell you "I'm not a baby serial killer" or "I did NOT kill that girl in the alley last night", kinda throws one off and makes you suspicious, eh?
 

ElementDave

Limp Gawd
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May 5, 2013
Messages
205
According to BackBlaze, no (and of that 9.58PB I am at 54% used). Besides we have government subsidized electricity and solar arrays, Bitcoin/Etherium is a better option, and we seriously considered it but the startup costs and paperwork requirements are such that it was decided too risky.
This is the public education system? And the participation in crypto mining was considered an option?
 

Lakados

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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This is the public education system? And the participation in crypto mining was considered an option?
Public and yes…. But there’s a lot of paperwork and oversight required so it’s an “option” but not actually one.
 

Macho

n00b
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Messages
40
Microsoft announced today that they will begin rolling out Windows 11 to users on October 5. If you are on Windows 10 currently you will be eligible to receive a free upgrade to Windows 11 should Microsoft's analytics determine your PC is special enough. They say that all eligible PCs should be able to upgrade by the middle of next year. PCs preloaded with the new version of the operating system will also be available for sale starting on October 5.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/08/31/windows-11-available-on-october-5/



Rolling out the free upgrade to Windows 11 in a phased and measured approach

The free upgrade to Windows 11 starts on October 5 and will be phased and measured with a focus on quality. Following the tremendous learnings from Windows 10, we want to make sure we’re providing you with the best possible experience. That means new eligible devices will be offered the upgrade first. The upgrade will then roll out over time to in-market devices based on intelligence models that consider hardware eligibility, reliability metrics, age of device and other factors that impact the upgrade experience. We expect all eligible devices to be offered the free upgrade to Windows 11 by mid-2022. If you have a Windows 10 PC that’s eligible for the upgrade, Windows Update will let you know when it’s available. You can also check to see if Windows 11 is ready for your device by going to Settings > Windows Update and select Check for updates*.
I joined the Windows Insider, Settings>Developer> After I did that, the check updates, sent through the Pre Release. My Avast Anti-virus detected a trojan that I put in the exceptions list to get the update to install. So far not a problem.... It did not work on a computer that did not have the Trusted Platform Module, - yet.
 

pendragon1

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I joined the Windows Insider, Settings>Developer> After I did that, the check updates, sent through the Pre Release. My Avast Anti-virus detected a trojan that I put in the exceptions list to get the update to install. So far not a problem.... It did not work on a computer that did not have the Trusted Platform Module, - yet.
if you download the iso you can install it on the none-tpm machine by running setup.exe. also, always disable 3rd party a/v during upgrades, they dont know the new system files and can fuck with them.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
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I'm joking by the way. Plan to install Win 11 but I'm waiting for the full release.

I'm reserving judgment. As it stands right now, I'm leaning towards "I'll install it when Win 10 goes EOL in 2025", but if some "gotta have it" feature turns up in the meantime, I reserve the right to change my mind. I just haven't seen any feature like that yet.

Since I really only use Windows for games it would likely have to do with game performance.
 

d3athf1sh

Gawd
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Dec 16, 2015
Messages
920
Can't help but think this will be a muddled launch with the fretting over system requirements and UI changes. That and Android app compatibility won't even be available in preview form until some months from now. In other words... don't rush to upgrade from Windows 10.
it'll prob only work on pc's running an arm processor, i mean, that's the next big thing right? :insert sarcasm: i mean apple's doin it. :hungover:
 

Aurelius

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Mar 22, 2003
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it'll prob only work on pc's running an arm processor, i mean, that's the next big thing right? :insert sarcasm: i mean apple's doin it. :hungover:
You joke, but Microsoft does have a history of chasing Apple... although in this case it's hamstrung. Both by its own poor approach to ARM support (it only recently enabled emulation for 64-bit x86 apps) and by Qualcomm's lousy PC-oriented chips. As I've suggested in the past, Microsoft might find itself in a weird position where it has to keep focusing on x86 even if ARM-based Macs develop a sizeable performance lead (they already do in the thin-and-light category).
 

d3athf1sh

Gawd
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Messages
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You joke, but Microsoft does have a history of chasing Apple... although in this case it's hamstrung. Both by its own poor approach to ARM support (it only recently enabled emulation for 64-bit x86 apps) and by Qualcomm's lousy PC-oriented chips. As I've suggested in the past, Microsoft might find itself in a weird position where it has to keep focusing on x86 even if ARM-based Macs develop a sizeable performance lead (they already do in the thin-and-light category).
but if you want to sacrafice performance for energy consumption you can do that with a pc. not sure why you'd want to on desktop and at the same time screw up compatibility? but i just picked out a laptop for a friend and it had a ryzen 4500u in it and that thing is smokin fast. not sure if their arm chip can hang with the likes of that? i also don't really care, you won't catch me going arm. and we already know they can't keep up on desktop even when they were using the same parts. it's actually comical how much crap the apple crowd puts up with.
 

Aurelius

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but if you want to sacrafice performance for energy consumption you can do that with a pc. not sure why you'd want to on desktop and at the same time screw up compatibility? but i just picked out a laptop for a friend and it had a ryzen 4500u in it and that thing is smokin fast. not sure if their arm chip can hang with the likes of that? i also don't really care, you won't catch me going arm. and we already know they can't keep up on desktop even when they were using the same parts. it's actually comical how much crap the apple crowd puts up with.
On the Mac, at least, compatibility isn't really an issue. Both Apple's approach to chips (which eliminates some of the speed hit from emulation/translation) and universal binaries means that apps almost always "just work," even if non-native apps take a speed hit.

And yes, the M1 can already hang with that Ryzen 4500U... in fact, it trounces the 4500U in some tests (the ones where both are running natively, anyway). That's the thing you need to understand — that Apple's first ARM-based Mac silicon is already outperforming equivalent x86 chips in key areas, and that Apple has a well-established history of continuous improvement where its rivals sometimes fall short. History won't necessarily repeat itself, but it's worth remembering that, by 2020, the cheapest iPhone was generally faster than the most expensive Android phones. You think ARM sucks only because ARM on Windows sucks. That 4500U is fast, don't get me wrong, but Apple switched to ARM precisely because it believed Intel (and to some degree, x86 as a whole) was holding it back.
 

Wat

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but Apple switched to ARM precisely because it believed Intel (and to some degree, x86 as a whole) was holding it back.
Apple's only worry is profits being held back.
Thats one reason I hope the Nvidia deal goes forward, Nvidia will squeeze Apple untill they leak cider.
 

Aurelius

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Apple's only worry is profits being held back.
Thats one reason I hope the Nvidia deal goes forward, Nvidia will squeeze Apple untill they leak cider.
Nah, you know that's not the whole story. Think about it — Apple's hardware refreshes were stale for a few years up to 2020, in part because Intel's chip lineup was stale. There's not much point to a hardware refresh when you're only going to get a few percentage points faster at best. Moving to ARM both gets... well, someone with a manufacturing process below 10nm, for starters, but it also lets Apple design and release chips on its own terms.

And you do know that it'd be illegal for Nvidia to "squeeze" Apple by abusing ARM ownership, right? Nvidia could maybe, possibly wield ARM to design better Tegra chips, but it can't intentionally starve Apple or other competitors.
 

Aurelius

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Aurelius laughable how hard you're trying to protect your precious apple, i'll get back with you after work ...
Not "protecting" anything. The M1 is faster than equivalent AMD and Intel in some areas; that's demonstrably true. Apple has a good track record of continuous improvement in chips that put it ahead of competitors; that's also demonstrably true. It's also true that Microsoft's ARM implementation is seriously flawed, and that Qualcomm has been lazy with its PC-oriented chips. Past isn't always prologue, but when Intel, Microsoft and Qualcomm are flailing, and AMD is doing well simply by not screwing up, I'd say Apple stands a good chance, don't you think?
 
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