Windows 11 available on October 5

Lakados

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To be clear, my philosophy in everything is the simpler the better.

Don't get me wrong, I don't shun all complexity. I'll add multiple monitors, have external DAC's, amps, multiple headphones, a power amp, bookshelf speakers etc. etc. but if it is something I don't use, I want it gone, and not gumming up the works.

I grumble to myself when motherboards include crap on-board features I don't want, and immediately try to disable them in the BIOS, and get pretty pissed if that works. (On my current desktop motherboard I have disabled all Ethernet ports because I use my own NIC, I have disabled on board sound, because I use my external DAC, I have disabled WiFi because no one should ever use Wifi on any stationary device, and I have disabled the stupid Christmas tree light controller.

I want to do the same thing in my OS. I want software I don't use completely ripped out. Not just disabled, so that it reappears if you create a new account. I want the binaries gone, and if I can't get that I get pissed.
It's really why I like LTSB, and for my next home rig I am tempted to instead run Server 2019 then see how that fares compared to win 10 or 11, assuming they don't launch a server 2022 then I might give that a go in its place.
 

SuperSubZero

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I grumble to myself when motherboards include crap on-board features I don't want, and immediately try to disable them in the BIOS, and get pretty pissed if that works. (On my current desktop motherboard I have disabled all Ethernet ports because I use my own NIC, I have disabled on board sound, because I use my external DAC, I have disabled WiFi because no one should ever use Wifi on any stationary device, and I have disabled the stupid Christmas tree light controller.
Motherboards are typically designed for lowest common denominator. When you personally commit to purchasing an external DAC for every single computer owner on this planet, forever, then motherboard makers can take the sound stuff off motherboards. Until then, motherboards get sound stuff, and that's fine, because the vast majority of computer owners aren't interested in external DACs. It took until now for me to "appreciate" on-board video, since video cards are so hard to come by these days I've been propping up computers with onboard HDMI or whatever just to get them tested and waiting for a video card. I even concede that onboard WiFi does in fact have a place on stationary devices, when it's not practical to get an ethernet cable cleanly to it. I'll be lugging my spare gaming rig to a remote location soon, and the only ethernet port will be on the other side of the house. I don't have onboard WiFi, so I'm also bringing a 100ft ethernet cable, which will just be an obstacle for a week.

I want to do the same thing in my OS. I want software I don't use completely ripped out. Not just disabled, so that it reappears if you create a new account. I want the binaries gone, and if I can't get that I get pissed.
Windows is a Rube Goldberg machines of moving parts. Taking out one thing can have unexpected consequences somewhere else. My favorite real example was with around Vista/7, disabling the *print spooler* would break Internet Explorer. I mean IE wouldn't even open properly if the print spooler wasn't running. That was.. dumb.. beyond belief.. and took me a while to figure out, but there it was. There was also that whole fiasco with people using what was it.. NTLite?.. to strip out parts of Vista, only to find out it broke Service Pack installations. Microsoft even called out that tool, BY NAME, on a KB article, as a cause for service packs not installing.
 

Sycraft

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It's really why I like LTSB, and for my next home rig I am tempted to instead run Server 2019 then see how that fares compared to win 10 or 11, assuming they don't launch a server 2022 then I might give that a go in its place.
Server 2022 is getting ready, I don't know if it is based on the Windows 11 branch or a newer Windows 10 branch but it is nearing release.

As an aside, I don't recommend server OSes on a desktop. I've seen it done at work and if often leads to unexpected problems. While the core is the same and so things work the same in theory, in reality some times have issues.
 

HockeyJon

[H]ard|Gawd
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Whenever software companies start talking about fresh reworked UI or aesthetic designs it just makes me want to roll my eyes. I'd prefer it if UI and design just stayed fixed and never changed. By all means, if something winds up improving usability, improve it, but just quit changing the Aesthetics all the time. Just choose one and stick with it. It literally adds no benefit what so ever.

Someone needs to justify their job to their manager. The result is completely needless UI changes that no one wants or asked for. Remember when Microsoft decided everyone wanted to go touch and ditch the start menu with Windows 8, only to see Classic Shell dominate their App Store before they finally admitted failure?
 

Aurelius

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Someone needs to justify their job to their manager. The result is completely needless UI changes that no one wants or asked for. Remember when Microsoft decided everyone wanted to go touch and ditch the start menu with Windows 8, only to see Classic Shell dominate their App Store before they finally admitted failure?
I don't think Classic Shell's ranking had much to do with it — it was all about poor sales. PC demand took a nosedive when Windows 8 arrived, and it didn't recover for a while.
 

Armenius

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  • Windows 11 delivers the best Windows ever for gaming and unlocks the full potential of your system’s hardware with technology like DirectX12 Ultimate, DirectStorage and Auto HDR. With Xbox Game Pass for PC or Ultimate you get access to over 100 high-quality PC games to play on Windows 11 for one low monthly price. (Xbox Game Pass sold separately.)
I do not want anything named "XBOX" on my computer. My machine is a professional workstation, not some childs toy. I will also NEVER sign up for any kind of game pass. I have specific games I like, and I buy only those. I don't want to pay a monthly fee to have access to just a random bunch of games, most of which I'll probably hate.

I do still enjoy the occasional game though, so it remains to be seen if this DX12 Ultimate makes any real difference, or if it is just marketing speak.
Xbox is the branding for Microsoft's gaming division now, if you didn't know. It encompasses all of their game publishing, game-related technology, and game services across every platform including PC. So if you play any games on your PC, even occasionally, then you are still partaking in Xbox whether you like it or not.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Motherboards are typically designed for lowest common denominator. When you personally commit to purchasing an external DAC for every single computer owner on this planet, forever, then motherboard makers can take the sound stuff off motherboards. Until then, motherboards get sound stuff, and that's fine, because the vast majority of computer owners aren't interested in external DACs. It took until now for me to "appreciate" on-board video, since video cards are so hard to come by these days I've been propping up computers with onboard HDMI or whatever just to get them tested and waiting for a video card. I even concede that onboard WiFi does in fact have a place on stationary devices, when it's not practical to get an ethernet cable cleanly to it. I'll be lugging my spare gaming rig to a remote location soon, and the only ethernet port will be on the other side of the house. I don't have onboard WiFi, so I'm also bringing a 100ft ethernet cable, which will just be an obstacle for a week.

Don't get me wrong. I understand this. I just wish it weren't the case. Every extra lead, component, and trace on the board adds complexity, and if it is not needed, it adds needless complexity and the needless addition of a failure mode.

I miss the days back when motherboards came with nothing. You wanted a storage controller? You added that controller yourself in an open slot. You wanted network connectivity? The same, you added a NIC. You wanted sound? You added a sound card. You wanted video? You added a video card.

I'm not saying that there aren't use cases for all in one products, but I wish there were at least an option to get a board without all the hardware bloat.

A motherboard with NOTHING on board, and expansion slots up the wazoo to make up for it. I'd buy that board for every high end system I built, and use the boards with integratred crapware just for low end systems I didn't really care about.


Windows is a Rube Goldberg machines of moving parts. Taking out one thing can have unexpected consequences somewhere else. My favorite real example was with around Vista/7, disabling the *print spooler* would break Internet Explorer. I mean IE wouldn't even open properly if the print spooler wasn't running. That was.. dumb.. beyond belief.. and took me a while to figure out, but there it was. There was also that whole fiasco with people using what was it.. NTLite?.. to strip out parts of Vista, only to find out it broke Service Pack installations. Microsoft even called out that tool, BY NAME, on a KB article, as a cause for service packs not installing.

...which means Microsoft is completely incompetent at software development.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Xbox is the branding for Microsoft's gaming division now, if you didn't know. It encompasses all of their game publishing, game-related technology, and game services across every platform including PC. So if you play any games on your PC, even occasionally, then you are still partaking in Xbox whether you like it or not.

🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

There is no worse branding that trying to merge crap console branding with high end prosumer stuff.

Anything branded "Xbox" is something you should be ashamed that you own like some silly little child.

Not something you want on your workstation.

Whoever came up with this idea was an absolute moron.

Every single time I see the Xbox app in the start menu in Windows or integrated in other places it makes me angry. At the very least let me remove it!

At least we are lucky they have never published evena single game worth playing, so there's that.
 
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Aurelius

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🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

There is no worse branding that trying to merge crap console branding with high end prosumer stuff.

Anything branded "Xbox" is something you should be ashamed that you own like some silly little child.

Not something you want on your workstation.

Whoever came up with this idea was an absolute moron.

Every single time I see the Xbox app in the start menu in Windows or integrated in other places it makes me angry. At the very least let me remove it!

At least we are lucky they have never published evena single game worth playing, so there's that.
To quote C.S. Lewis:

"Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

Now, Microsoft's Xbox branding strategy is ham-handed, but I'm not going to feel ashamed for having an Xbox (or in my case, a PlayStation) in my living room!
 

Zarathustra[H]

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To quote C.S. Lewis:

"Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

I couldn't disagree more with C.S. Lewis. There is something fundamentally wrong with a grown ass man who behaves like a child.

I'm not necessarily saying that owning a console falls into that category, though I do still consider "console" a derogatory term,but I am prone to some hyperbole on this subject.

If an adult behaves like a child there is a problem, and calling that out does not make you childish.
 

GoldenTiger

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I couldn't disagree more with C.S. Lewis. There is something fundamentally wrong with a grown ass man who behaves like a child.

I'm not necessarily saying that owning a console falls into that category, though I do still consider "console" a derogatory term,but I am prone to some hyperbole on this subject.

If an adult behaves like a child there is a problem, and calling that out does not make you childish.
I think you missed the point of the quote...
 

xDiVolatilX

Limp Gawd
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I will update to Win 11 as soon as possible if 2 things are there.

1] the ability to do a custom full fresh clean wiped formatted & clean install. Not an upgrade.

2] i can still use my 8.1 key that has worked for all these years on 8.1 & 10 and hopefully the same key will work on 11 since It's offered for free to 10 owners?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I am never surprised at how much emotion someone can put into a topic that is in no way forced on them to use or will impact their lives if the product succeeds or fails.

There are a lot of people - and I would be lying if I didn't admit that I partially fall in this category - for whom tech, PC Hardware and the software that runs on it has been almost an obsession of a hobby for decades, since we were very young. For many years when I was in my early teens through even my later 20's PC hardware would be the last thing I thought of before falling asleep, and the first thing I though of when waking up. Every single day at school when doing work, I'd be day dreaming about PC Hardware to the point where focusing on school work, or later, for the first few years of my career, the work day, was challenging. Every waking moment not spent in work school or other obligations, was spent tirelessly customizing, optimizing, improving or using PC hardware.

The ability to buy the best PC hardware (or at least the PC hardware of my choosing) served as my motivation for getting an education and a high paying job, and for many of my younger years, even through my late 20's every last penny I saved up was spent on new and exciting PC hardware. I planned my life, and all of my free time around major PC bulding and optimization project timelines, moving from project to project.

PC Hardware, and to a lesser extent the software that runs on it, while I certainly do care less now that I've gotten older and have other priorities, is still a very large part of my identity, so it should be no great surprise that some might have an intensely guttural anger response when they see it twisted by fools into something you don't think it should be. It's like they are harming your baby or taking away your identity.

To many, these are not just products. They are a way of life, and a set of values.

You say Windows (I presume) is not forced on you, but in many cases there are no good alternatives. What are you supposed to buy a Mac? Don't make me laugh. Run Linux? Sure, it is great, and I like and do run Linux, but unfortunately for many things there are no viable options.

...at least not other than moving to the forest and drinking your own piss.
 
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wizzi01

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I couldn't disagree more with C.S. Lewis. There is something fundamentally wrong with a grown ass man who behaves like a child.

I'm not necessarily saying that owning a console falls into that category, though I do still consider "console" a derogatory term,but I am prone to some hyperbole on this subject.

If an adult behaves like a child there is a problem, and calling that out does not make you childish.


You wrote this, but have you actually read what you have written lately?
 

SuperSubZero

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Don't get me wrong. I understand this. I just wish it weren't the case. Every extra lead, component, and trace on the board adds complexity, and if it is not needed, it adds needless complexity and the needless addition of a failure mode.
The complexity needed to provide onboard sound now isn't particularly much. You can hold an SB Live card in your hand, and try to find the one or two chips on a modern motherboard providing sound, and compare the complexity. Note that an SB Live back in the day cost a good percentage of the cost of a modern basic motherboard. I wonder if SB Live cards failed at a higher or lower rate than motherboards with integrated sound.
...which means Microsoft is completely incompetent at software development.
It could also mean Microsoft builds this stuff out in a way that it all ends up tied to each other. That there aren't 12 trillion Windows machines exploding and threatening to destroy the very fabric of society means they may be doing something right? Or at least less wrong. If you know how to do it better than MS, go for it?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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The complexity needed to provide onboard sound now isn't particularly much. You can hold an SB Live card in your hand, and try to find the one or two chips on a modern motherboard providing sound, and compare the complexity. Note that an SB Live back in the day cost a good percentage of the cost of a modern basic motherboard. I wonder if SB Live cards failed at a higher or lower rate than motherboards with integrated sound.

It could also mean Microsoft builds this stuff out in a way that it all ends up tied to each other. That there aren't 12 trillion Windows machines exploding and threatening to destroy the very fabric of society means they may be doing something right? Or at least less wrong. If you know how to do it better than MS, go for it?

While not a software developer myself, I do actually happen to know a good amount about word class software life cycle management.

What you describe in regards to Microsofts Windows components not being independent and causing each-other to fail if absent sounds to me like they are not doing a high level and detailed design layout before writing code (or at the very least doing a very poor one)

This is usually not required for consumer software, but is for high criticality medical devices and many DOD and NASA contracts where the software has to be reliable, but it is still a good idea as you start getting into large and complex software products, or you might just wind up with a failure prone product.

Good software design minimizes the number of interfaces between modules and makes them as independent as possible in order to minimize the likelihood of failure.

To me it sounds more like this is done on purpose, in order to force users into using their ecosystem so they can reap the benefits. Something like "If we force every user to have this crap they don't want on their computer, over time a certain percentage of them will break down and start using it, even if they didn't want to. How can we make it as difficult as possible to remove it?"

Also, ff they ever get into a pissing match with regulators again like they did in the 90's, they want to be able to claim that whatever part the regulators are taking exception to this time is an integrated part of the operating system that can't possibly be removed, just like they did with IE in the 90's, yet this time they want it to be true.
 

inbedwithhomer

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If what I need to do in the OS takes the same number of clicks (which my vm install seems to suggest), then I don't care one way or the other about what the hot new UI design style is.

Also it's Windows, so I know it has to do a million things I don't for millions of other people.

Like every other version before it, 11 is gonna be just fine.
 

GoldenTiger

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If what I need to do in the OS takes the same number of clicks (which my vm install seems to suggest), then I don't care one way or the other about what the hot new UI design style is.

Also it's Windows, so I know it has to do a million things I don't for millions of other people.

Like every other version before it, 11 is gonna be just fine.
Noooooooooooooooooo... Panic in the streets, an icon got ten percent higher green channel luminance! Cats and dogs living together!

I love new windows release threads :p. They're always quite amusing.
 

jlbenedict

[H]ard|Gawd
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Server 2022 is getting ready, I don't know if it is based on the Windows 11 branch or a newer Windows 10 branch but it is nearing release.

As an aside, I don't recommend server OSes on a desktop. I've seen it done at work and if often leads to unexpected problems. While the core is the same and so things work the same in theory, in reality some times have issues.
Server 2022 released a couple weeks ago.
*edit*
Released on 08/18/2021
Based on 21H2
 
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Lakados

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You run your own business? I wish I could get (non-subscription) Enterprise licenses at home.
It management for a school district, so when I sign my new agreement every 3 years they give me new MAK’s for every supported OS. Each MAK is generally good for 10k activations for desktop and 500 for server.
 

Domingo

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I remember a lot of the "from my cold dead hands" talk with Windows 10 and literally everyone hopped on that train. Normally I'd bet on similar adoption within a couple years. The catch is the whole security thing. A lot of people that would can't based on the current rules. There are a shitload of people with PC's that work perfectly fine (even great) and upgrading simply won't be an option. A shitload of office machines fall into that group. It'll be really interesting if MS tweaks their own rules or forces people into haves and have-nots.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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It management for a school district, so when I sign my new agreement every 3 years they give me new MAK’s for every supported OS. Each MAK is generally good for 10k activations for desktop and 500 for server.

I have to admit, I am a little envious.

If I could buy Enterprise/LTSB releases, I would.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I remember a lot of the "from my cold dead hands" talk with Windows 10 and literally everyone hopped on that train. Normally I'd bet on similar adoption within a couple years. The catch is the whole security thing. A lot of people that would can't based on the current rules. There are a shitload of people with PC's that work perfectly fine (even great) and upgrading simply won't be an option. A shitload of office machines fall into that group. It'll be really interesting if MS tweaks their own rules or forces people into haves and have-nots.

You have to be pragmatic about it. I still hate Windows 10 and how it has forced an ecosystem on me I don't want, never asked for, and in most cases can't uninstall.

Eventually Windows 7 went EOL though, and I'm not foolish enough to use a system that doesn't get security patches.

They kind of have you over a barrel. If they do something you don't like there really aren't many alternatives out there, and eventually the old versions go EOL.

I'll eventually be forced to use Windows 11, I'm sure, but it won't be until Windows 10 goes EOL in 2025, and I can guarantee you I am not holding on to Windows 10 because I have any love for it.

Luckily I can (and do) use Linux for 99% of my personal use. Unfortunately once Win10 goes EOL, I'll be forced to switch the remaining 1% from Win10 to Win11, but if I had my druthers, I'd be on Vista or 7, but with the latest kernel/scheduler optimizations and DX revisions from 10/11
 

Lakados

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Server 2022 is getting ready, I don't know if it is based on the Windows 11 branch or a newer Windows 10 branch but it is nearing release.

As an aside, I don't recommend server OSes on a desktop. I've seen it done at work and if often leads to unexpected problems. While the core is the same and so things work the same in theory, in reality some times have issues.

Server 2022 released a couple weeks ago.
Well F Me: (coppied from VLSC)

Version2022
Release Date8/18/2021

Product DescriptionWindows Server 2022 introduces advanced multi-layer security, hybrid capabilities with Azure, and a flexible application platform.

As part of this release, we are bringing secured-core capabilities to help protect hardware, firmware, and Windows Server OS capabilities against advanced security threats. Secured-core server builds on technologies such as Windows Defender System Guard and Virtualization-based Security to minimize risk from firmware vulnerabilities and advanced malware. The new release also provides secured connectivity that introduces several new capabilities such as faster and more secure encrypted HTTPS connections, industry standard SMB AES 256 encryption and more.

Windows Server 2022 improves hybrid server management with significantly improved VM management, an enhanced event viewer, and many more new capabilities in Windows Admin Center. Furthermore, this release includes significant improvements to Windows containers, such as smaller image sizes for faster download, simplified network policy implementation and containerization tools for .NET applications.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Well F Me: (coppied from VLSC)

Version2022
Release Date8/18/2021

Product DescriptionWindows Server 2022 introduces advanced multi-layer security, hybrid capabilities with Azure, and a flexible application platform.

As part of this release, we are bringing secured-core capabilities to help protect hardware, firmware, and Windows Server OS capabilities against advanced security threats. Secured-core server builds on technologies such as Windows Defender System Guard and Virtualization-based Security to minimize risk from firmware vulnerabilities and advanced malware. The new release also provides secured connectivity that introduces several new capabilities such as faster and more secure encrypted HTTPS connections, industry standard SMB AES 256 encryption and more.

Windows Server 2022 improves hybrid server management with significantly improved VM management, an enhanced event viewer, and many more new capabilities in Windows Admin Center. Furthermore, this release includes significant improvements to Windows containers, such as smaller image sizes for faster download, simplified network policy implementation and containerization tools for .NET applications.

What is a "hybrid" server? Part what and part what?

Is it just a marketing name for a server that is local but also interacts with cloud services?
 

Lakados

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What is a "hybrid" server? Part what and part what?

Is it just a marketing name for a server that is local but also interacts with cloud services?
Hybrid server is actually pretty awesome its how I am running Exchange and Sharepoint now.

You have the local server where it handles say AD, Exchange, and you configure the basics there but it synchronizes with your O365 / Google Business accounts for password management licensing. So in my case Its a local Sharepoint & Exchange server and it is configured to be those services, I do all the configurations there but those are written back to O365 in the case of Exchange it doesn't actually contain any of the actual mailboxes just their configurations, and in Sharepoints case if you are in the building on the network then it automatically routes you to the local Sharepoint servers on the LAN, but if you are out of building it automatically goes back to O365's instance and any changes made in either location are kept synchronized in as close to real-time as my internet allows. But because everything is then kept in check by my local AD servers they only need to worry about one password, and any changes made in one location write back so it keeps things really smooth for the staff. It also lets me ditch ADFS entirely and use the O365 interface for that instead. Pretty much every vendor and service I deal with now has their application interface available in the O365 database and the one or two that arent I can create and register with a few simple steps. It is a huge time saver and completely removes the need for many of my edge servers which really helps improve network security, big time saver.

The biggest win for me overall is the decrease in system requirements, For Exchange 2019 running mailboxes you need to dedicate like 4+TB and 128GB in ram, and 16-32 cores depending on what services you are running. This isn't cheap in a server, but in hybrid mode, since it doesn't technically have the mailbox role enabled you get away with 16GB ram, 4 cores, and 128 GB of HDD space. Way more cost-effective in a virtual environment, the simplification of the backups.... such a money saver. Also removes my need for a VPN for most day to day things, only need to maintain it for Accounting as that old ass machine I am not opening up for external access, more security holes than I can count on that box (hasn't received a security patch since 2007, been in operation since 96)

TLDR;
Yes, it splits the services and data locally and with the cloud giving you the local controls enterprise users want with the ease of use that users want from a cloud environment.
Microsoft also ensures that Data doesn't cross borders, in my case they gave me specific DNS servers to use and to black list so my Canadian data does not hit any non-Canadian servers or Datacenters.
Hybrid configurations are an included option in O365 licensing.
 
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ChadD

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You know what would be great....
Steam OS 3.0 on Sept 28th. :p
I kid... will be interesting to see how smooth MS rolls this one out. I do hope there aren't any show stoppers, I don't really wish anyone a borked system. lol
 

DogsofJune

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You know what would be great....
Steam OS 3.0 on Sept 28th. :p
I kid... will be interesting to see how smooth MS rolls this one out. I do hope there aren't any show stoppers, I don't really wish anyone a borked system. lol
Wouldn't it be simpler to just go with manjaro then? I am curious about how Steam OS gets set into the wild though. I hope it's a positive experience
 

cybereality

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I assume if you download the ISO you can install on day one and not wait? Middle of 2022 is a long time.
 

GiGaBiTe

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The only advantage I see, for me, is that Windows 11 is supported beyond 2025. There's not a single new feature in Win 11 holds any interest to me.

What new features lol?

Since the beginning of Windows 10, Microsoft has been steadily removing features from the OS and calling it progress. Like games that have been around since almost the dawn of Windows (minesweeper, solitaire, etc.) were stripped and replaced with adware filled crap. Paint was removed, movie maker was removed, WINDOWS BACKUP was removed. With 20H2, the system properties page was removed and replaced with a massive waste of space window you have to scroll double the length of to get the information that used to be efficiently laid out and easy to see. The control panel is steadily being stripped away and replaced with a horrible metro clone where nothing is organized and hidden within pages and pages of irrelevant settings.

Windows 10/11 is an exercise in Microsoft seeing how much crap they can get away with without alienating their user base to the point where they jump ship and never look back.
 

cybereality

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
8,789
Maybe that is progress though. Does anyone actually play Minesweeper today? Give me a break.
 
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