Windows 11 available on October 5

Lakados

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7th gen cpu. Which makes it the second most modern system in my house. Out of 6. This smells of planned obsolescence to me.
It wasn’t until 8’th gen that Intel had the micro code adjustments for Spectre and Meltdown to a place where they could remove the OS workarounds that killed system performance. By dropping support for those they got to remove very large portions of Kernel code and clean it up greatly. It was a shitty choice to have to make but there has to be a cut off somewhere.
 

ManofGod

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It wasn’t until 8’th gen that Intel had the micro code adjustments for Spectre and Meltdown to a place where they could remove the OS workarounds that killed system performance. By dropping support for those they got to remove very large portions of Kernel code and clean it up greatly. It was a shitty choice to have to make but there has to be a cut off somewhere.

Which, although I agree, was no reason to break Ryzen support.
 

Armenius

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I don't ever recalling Windows asking how I wanted to install it--using MBR or GPT--maybe I just missed. Anyhow, changing it seemed like a daunting task. Searched around and found the simplest way.
You have to boot your PC in UEFI mode and go into the boot options screen at startup to boot from USB using UEFI, otherwise it will install in MBR mode. The installation program doesn't give you an option in itself. You can easily tell whether or not you will install with GPT or MBR if you are installing to a hard drive larger than 2TB, since the new partition Windows will create will only be 2TB in MBR mode. F12 is the key to get to the boot override screen on my motherboard.
 

Lakados

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Which, although I agree, was no reason to break Ryzen support.
Well first edition Ryzen similarly needed a very customized process scheduler as their internal IO chips were a bit of a mess. If they were cutting legacy spectre code that slowed things down but not similarly cutting Ryzen legacy code that also similarly effected performance that would be showing some degree of favouritism. The fact the Ryzen 1 platform doesn’t support TPM 2 is just a deal breaker.
 

Jagger100

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A recent purchase that says its W11 ready had bitlocker enabled on the drive? Is the TPM2 think because they plan to make bitlocker standard?
 

Jagger100

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It gets noticeable when you are doing things that actually call for the TPM module, in the average users' day to day you won't run into that much yet, but in enterprise, we hit them frequently and the difference is very noticable.

For many of the proposed changes for anti-cheat, it may be needed in the next year or 3 but that is a completely different situation.
Anti-cheat needs to be in the video card which will never happen.
 

Lakados

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A recent purchase that says its W11 ready had bitlocker enabled on the drive? Is the TPM2 think because they plan to make bitlocker standard?
TPM2 is required for Bitlocker and with out it really slows down performance on encrypted SharePoint file access so yeah.
 

Lakados

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Anti-cheat needs to be in the video card which will never happen.
Not quite, you can use TPM2 to validate the entire boot chain from power on to software launch. Any 3’rd party tools attempting to interface with the software would fail to validate and they could easily have that report back. It won’t stop them from cheating but it will set off a signal flare when they do, pair that with hardware based blocking and they can make cheaters lives much more difficult.
 

Geforcepat

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I'm Going to do the smart thing and wait 6-9 months on my main desktop. I'll try to find a cheap lil laptop and try it before then though. My Sandy Laptop(Which runs win 10 just fine) doesn't have the TPM 2.
 

tordogs

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You have to boot your PC in UEFI mode and go into the boot options screen at startup to boot from USB using UEFI, otherwise it will install in MBR mode. The installation program doesn't give you an option in itself. You can easily tell whether or not you will install with GPT or MBR if you are installing to a hard drive larger than 2TB, since the new partition Windows will create will only be 2TB in MBR mode. F12 is the key to get to the boot override screen on my motherboard.
Think I've only installed using a CD or mounting an .ISO file. Guess that is why it always installs in MBR. Remember when the USB booting started and it did UEFI or some such. Never messed with it. Now that I've found an easy way to change MBR to GPT after installing Windows, figure I'll just keep doing it the old-fashioned way. Really not sure the importance of UEFI other than Windows 11 requires it and it supports huge storage devices which I tend not to use. Thanks for the info.
 

M76

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It wasn’t until 8’th gen that Intel had the micro code adjustments for Spectre and Meltdown to a place where they could remove the OS workarounds that killed system performance. By dropping support for those they got to remove very large portions of Kernel code and clean it up greatly. It was a shitty choice to have to make but there has to be a cut off somewhere.
That doesn't make any sense. You can still install the os from iso, so if I Do that there are no software mitigations in place for spectre and meltdown when running W11? I highly doubt that.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Real shame they are doing away with MBR booting.

Years later EFI is still a fucking over-conplicted shit show with few benefits. I much prefer MBR and if EFI werebt required in order to boot from NVMe drives I'd still be using it.

Microsoft just seems to have this desire to take absolutely everything that sucks and make it the new required standard. :/
 

ZodaEX

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I'm Going to do the smart thing and wait 6-9 months on my main desktop. I'll try to find a cheap lil laptop and try it before then though. My Sandy Laptop(Which runs win 10 just fine) doesn't have the TPM 2.

I'll do the smarter thing and stay on Arch Linux.
 

ManofGod

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Well first edition Ryzen similarly needed a very customized process scheduler as their internal IO chips were a bit of a mess. If they were cutting legacy spectre code that slowed things down but not similarly cutting Ryzen legacy code that also similarly effected performance that would be showing some degree of favouritism. The fact the Ryzen 1 platform doesn’t support TPM 2 is just a deal breaker.

Except that Windows 11 has entirely broke L3 cache performance and core scheduling. I will not be moving over to Windows 11, I prefer all the performance I paid for. :)
 

Lakados

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That doesn't make any sense. You can still install the os from iso, so if I Do that there are no software mitigations in place for spectre and meltdown when running W11? I highly doubt that.
That's the line from Microsoft, using the ISO you can install Win 11 going as far back as 6'th Gen, or Ryzen 1'st gen, but they don't guarantee any degree of security, stability, or performance. Skylake was the last of the Intel chips to not have the hardware mitigations for the Spectre/Meltdown vulnerabilities which include all 6'th Gen and some of the 7'th gen, but not all of them there is a chart somewhere that breaks that one down. But the kernel code that Microsoft had to add to protect 6th and 7th gen were known for the 20% performance dip and was ugly as all hell. So yeah they cut it.
 

Flogger23m

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Is the only way to copy paste to right click, then click "more options"? Seems like an unnecessary extra click, when it worked fine for over two decades with a single click.

I'm seeing that you can do a registry edit to restore it to a single click like in previous Windows versions. But am hoping there is a way to just add some of the basic functionality back without requiring that extra click. That, along with only allowing icons in the task bar, is a big UI step back. No reason they can't be options.
 

Lakados

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Except that Windows 11 has entirely broke L3 cache performance and core scheduling. I will not be moving over to Windows 11, I prefer all the performance I paid for. :)
Except that has already been addressed and it is AMD's UEFI CPPC2 drivers that cause the problem, AMD is working on an update to their drivers and should have it available shortly, they will be making the update available via Windows Update.
 

ManofGod

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Except that has already been addressed and it is AMD's UEFI CPPC2 drivers that cause the problem, AMD is working on an update to their drivers and should have it available shortly, they will be making the update available via Windows Update.

So, this caused the issue with the 3990WX, where it would only use 64 cores / threads instead of all 128 threads?
 

staknhalo

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Is the only way to copy paste to right click, then click "more options"? Seems like an unnecessary extra click, when it worked fine for over two decades with a single click.

I'm seeing that you can do a registry edit to restore it to a single click like in previous Windows versions. But am hoping there is a way to just add some of the basic functionality back without requiring that extra click. That, along with only allowing icons in the task bar, is a big UI step back. No reason they can't be options.

You use these guys at top now to right click > cut/copy/paste/rename/delete right away - I thought the same as you - but I've adapted to this pretty quickly once I saw it

1633628680737.png
 

Camberwell

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Real shame they are doing away with MBR booting.

Years later EFI is still a fucking over-conplicted shit show with few benefits. I much prefer MBR and if EFI werebt required in order to boot from NVMe drives I'd still be using it.

Microsoft just seems to have this desire to take absolutely everything that sucks and make it the new required standard. :/
I have Win 10 on an NVMe drive and it is MBR...I did clone it from my old SSD though...
 

mvmiller12

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Is the only way to copy paste to right click, then click "more options"? Seems like an unnecessary extra click, when it worked fine for over two decades with a single click.

I'm seeing that you can do a registry edit to restore it to a single click like in previous Windows versions. But am hoping there is a way to just add some of the basic functionality back without requiring that extra click. That, along with only allowing icons in the task bar, is a big UI step back. No reason they can't be options.

The copy/paste options are on that initial rt-click menu, but they re=are symbols, not text (scissors for cut, two pages for copy, etc.)

Not gonna lie though, my crappy eyesight has me mixing up copy and paste all the time, though :)
 

Lakados

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So, this caused the issue with the 3990WX, where it would only use 64 cores / threads instead of all 128 threads?
The 3990x and 3995WX both did this in Windows 10 as well, disabling SMT was a workaround but the correct fix is to run Windows 10 or 11 for Workstations, as it uses a scheduler designed for multi-socket. This is a design fault on AMD's side for how they bridged the chip together, they may have issued a bios update for this at some point, but it was the reason I decided against using Threadrippers and just sprang for EPYC's instead.
Task%20Manager%203990X%20-%20Copy_575px.jpg
Task%20Manager%203990X%20SMT%20Off_575px.jpg
 

ManofGod

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The 3990x and 3995WX both did this in Windows 10 as well, disabling SMT was a workaround but the correct fix is to run Windows 10 or 11 for Workstations, as it uses a scheduler designed for multi-socket. This is a design fault on AMD's side for how they bridged the chip together, they may have issued a bios update for this at some point, but it was the reason I decided against using Threadrippers and just sprang for EPYC's instead.
View attachment 401174View attachment 401175

I know this sounds like arguing but, this issue does not exist in Linux, whatsoever and therefore, sounds like a Windows issue to me. However, the point I made came from someone else that had no issues with Windows 10 but it nerfed his cpu with Windows 11.
 

Lakados

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I know this sounds like arguing but, this issue does not exist in Linux, whatsoever and therefore, sounds like a Windows issue to me. However, the point I made came from someone else that had no issues with Windows 10 but it nerfed his cpu with Windows 11.
Linux doesn't gate how many sockets the system will work with, so it isn't an issue there at all, but these controls are managed by AMD CPPC2 drivers, the initial windows 10 fix came when AMD launched CPPC2 with a bios update, a driver update, and a windows upgrade in the 1903 build. I would think that the Windows 11 build would use a very similar schedular, and AMD has stated there are numerous problems in the CPPC2 driver and they are working with Microsoft on them so it's probably all related. Just best to not use 11 with AMD chips at the moment.
 

ManofGod

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Linux doesn't gate how many sockets the system will work with, so it isn't an issue there at all, but these controls are managed by AMD CPPC2 drivers, the initial windows 10 fix came when AMD launched CPPC2 with a bios update, a driver update, and a windows upgrade in the 1903 build. I would think that the Windows 11 build would use a very similar schedular, and AMD has stated there are numerous problems in the CPPC2 driver and they are working with Microsoft on them so it's probably all related. Just best to not use 11 with AMD chips at the moment.

Holy crap, it took Microsoft 2 years to properly support Ryzen? I have to admit, anything that goes on here should be at the kernel level and not a driver level but, oh well........
 

Lakados

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Holy crap, it took Microsoft 2 years to properly support Ryzen? I have to admit, anything that goes on here should be at the kernel level and not a driver level but, oh well........
The 3990 and the Threadripper’s are sort of outliers for the Ryzen chips but L1 Tech did a shit load of troubleshooting the Ryzen windows 10 issues and has far more coverage and explanations for those issues then I could begin to cover. If your not familiar with their work you should check it out.

https://level1techs.com/
 

ManofGod

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The 3990 and the Threadripper’s are sort of outliers for the Ryzen chips but L1 Tech did a shit load of troubleshooting the Ryzen windows 10 issues and has far more coverage and explanations for those issues then I could begin to cover. If your not familiar with their work you should check it out.

https://level1techs.com/

Ah Wendel, yep, I know of him and have been there a number of times. I remember first seeing him back in the day on Tek Syndicate with Logan, those were good times. (Oh, and he uses Linux always as his host OS and uses VFIO passthrough for anything Windows related.)
 

GotNoRice

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So it’s still a new set of tests but apparently the Windows Virtualization based security systems drop up to 20% performance on older Intel CPU’s.

Not the most reliable source but the only one I can find at the moment, but nothing in the article seems amiss.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/539...DzhUF6NP_W_Vy3AerwLObwudEv7zAoFfiG2BomVnhg9kg

This is not the first article about this. Of course, like a good click-bait article, they bury the part about it not applying to 99% of users in an effort to try to make the headline more noteworthy.

VBS is not enabled by default for a fresh install of Windows 11.
VBS is not enabled by default for any system that upgrades from Windows 10 to Windows 11, unless you had previously manually enabled that feature in Windows 10.
VBS will come enabled on some pre-built PCs (likely PCs aimed at the corporate market, where security is paramount, and they don't need performance because they aren't running anything beyond Office 365 and Teams).
Absolute worst case scenario, if you end up with a PC that has it enabled for some reason - just disable it.

Non-issue, cooked up into a fake issue for the purpose of ad revenue.
 

Lakados

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This is not the first article about this. Of course, like a good click-bait article, they bury the part about it not applying to 99% of users in an effort to try to make the headline more noteworthy.

VBS is not enabled by default for a fresh install of Windows 11.
VBS is not enabled by default for any system that upgrades from Windows 10 to Windows 11, unless you had previously manually enabled that feature in Windows 10.
VBS will come enabled on some pre-built PCs (likely PCs aimed at the corporate market, where security is paramount, and they don't need performance because they aren't running anything beyond Office 365 and Teams).
Absolute worst case scenario, if you end up with a PC that has it enabled for some reason - just disable it.

Non-issue, cooked up into a fake issue for the purpose of ad revenue.
Upgrade from 10 to 11 and VBS is off (unless you turned it on) new OEM purchases have it on by default.

We have VBS enabled on 10 via GPO so it will be on in 11 for us regardless (not that we have any PC’s that should be prompted to upgrade)

And I do find plenty of articles about VBS and windows 11 on supported hardware this is the only one I can find talking about it on the unsupported hardware.

And given how most OEM purchasers use their PC’s I would argue that they are the last user group who should be disabling it.
 

GotNoRice

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We have VBS enabled on 10 via GPO so it will be on in 11 for us regardless (not that we have any PC’s that should be prompted to upgrade)

If you already have it enabled in Windows 10 then you are already experiencing the associated performance penalties. This isn't some issue where the Windows 11 version is broken but the Windows 10 version worked fine. Both incur the exact same performance penalties.

And I do find plenty of articles about VBS and windows 11 on supported hardware this is the only one I can find talking about it on the unsupported hardware.

I don't see what difference it makes unless you are talking about systems so old that they have to use software virtualization. Even with hardware virtualization, there will still be a penalty when you force programs to use it.

And given how most OEM purchasers use their PC’s I would argue that they are the last user group who should be disabling it.

These people probably also aren't posting on forums bitching about how Windows 11 lowers their performance because of VBS. Anyone who knows enough to understand and/or care that there is a performance penalty should also know enough to toggle off one simple setting.

The point is, this isn't being forced on anyone nor is this some kind of "bad" feature. It's a great feature when used for it's intended purpose. Forcing games on a gaming PC to use hardware virtualization is NOT it's intended purpose.
 

Lakados

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If you already have it enabled in Windows 10 then you are already experiencing the associated performance penalties. This isn't some issue where the Windows 11 version is broken but the Windows 10 version worked fine. Both incur the exact same performance penalties.



I don't see what difference it makes unless you are talking about systems so old that they have to use software virtualization. Even with hardware virtualization, there will still be a penalty when you force programs to use it.



These people probably also aren't posting on forums bitching about how Windows 11 lowers their performance because of VBS. Anyone who knows enough to understand and/or care that there is a performance penalty should also know enough to toggle off one simple setting.

The point is, this isn't being forced on anyone nor is this some kind of "bad" feature. It's a great feature when used for it's intended purpose. Forcing games on a gaming PC to use hardware virtualization is NOT it's intended purpose.
It’s not broken in 10, it’s more the big difference in the performance hit from using it on supported vs unsupported hardware. Probably explains why the cutoff was placed where it was. On a gen 8 Intel and up its not that bad but on 7 through 4 it is despairingly bad in comparison.

And here’s hoping they can figure it out for games, the anti cheat implications of forcing games to run in a sandbox where 3’rd party apps can’t interfere paired with TPM2 securing the launch sequence would make cheaters lives way harder.
 

HAL_404

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ok, just installed Win 11 and played with it for a bit:
Ever hear of Taskbar Corner Overflow?
Does that label make sense to you? That's where you select which icons will show on the taskbar or be hidden :confused:
Some things work the same as Win 10, others are hard to find. Still looking for how to turn off the taskbar "Combine Labels Always" option
11 seemed to install faster than 10 though I didn't actually time it.
I can right click on an icon on the desktop to delete it but when I press the "D" key nothing happens. I have to right click and use the trash icon. I sure hope they plan to change that
You have to right-click on a desktop icon then choose MORE OPTIONS then click PIN TO TASKBAR. You can't drag/drop a desktop icon to the taskbar
Seems one needs to use regedit to change the size of the taskbar :LOL:
Over all, I think Microsoft did a fine job with 11
 
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cybereality

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The install was super quick for me. Much faster than even normal quarterly updates.
 

staknhalo

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Auto HDR is cool, here are all my games that either have HDR natively, or have triggered Auto HDR for me:

1633720869938.png


I ran though these two lists to see what triggered (not on all do)

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_games_that_support_Auto_HDR

https://www.resetera.com/threads/list-of-xbox-games-that-support-auto-hdr.324172/

Some games like Far Cry 3 + Blood Dragon + Arkham City don't trigger the Auto HDR notification on my end - but they're putting out a 10bit correct bright/color signal even if no HDR flag/metadata (obvious by the whites) so it's still better than SDR technically whatever is going on even if a bug IMO. Rise of the Tomb Raider should also be in that image as it has Auto HDR, and Devil May Cry 4 SE might have Auto HDR as well, but crashes on launch ATM for me so can't test.
 
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