Windows 10's next major update for 2021 codenamed Iron (Fe) 1-c

mlcarson

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
362
The biggest advancements I have seen in Windows in the past few versions are
Windows snap (use it 100x a day)
Start menu search. When Vista came out, half the complaints were about the start menu. With windows search, who the hell uses the start menu? I have not since Vista
Much improved task manager
Virtual desktops - still lag behind MacOS but they are a welcome addition

Windows snap: never use it
Start menu search: rarely use it. It's worthless if you don't know the name of the item you're searching for but a hierarchical menu system will get you there.
Virtual desktops: never use them.

There are a couple things that are a must in a GUI -- you should be able to get to everything within it and you should keep things consistent. Microsoft has violated both precepts.

Microsoft started eliminating apps in favor of things that you can only get to through powershell or vbscript. The reason that Windows exists in the server environment was because it could be administered from a GUI rather than Unix/Linux which relied on the CLI and scripting. I know that scripting works better at scale but now I have to hire administrators with scripting/programming skills even for small environments.

If you can objectively improve things, you can make changes and violate the consistency rule but you should never do so arbitrarily. This is what's pissed off so many people in the past with the Windows menus. Microsoft would arbitrarily change where things were located. What was the compelling need to change the start menu from Windows 7 to WIndows 8/10? Why is there now a settings menu with less features than what control panel had? Why wouldn't Device Manager be under Windows System? Microsoft seems to be improving the Windows Subsystem for Linux to truly be part of the Windows OS. Once you do that, why not rely on the Linux scripting tools for administration? There's so much inconsistency in how things are done in Windows now, it's really hard to get excited about any new release. The features they add usually aren't compelling and they make so many arbitrary changes that it just makes your life harder for no reason while also breaking something in the process. The Start Menu thing almost seems like a make-work government project because each release just ensures that another one is required when the obvious solution seems to be to look at what worked in Windows 7 and replicate it as much as possible since people are still using Classic-shell/Open-Shell, Startx, etc for a reason.
 

cybereality

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
8,280
In general I've always felt there was a lower level of quality with open source software. It's a statement that will get the fan boys fired up, but that's my unwavering impression. You always have to live with something not working right. The trade-off with proprietary software is better quality, but then you have to suffer all the bullshit like forced updates and telemetry. Pick your poison.
That's the thing. It's not that open-source or Linux are objectively better. Well in some cases (such as customizing) it is much better. It is more that it is free and you are free to use it however you wish and you have to compromise on some features or functionality to obtain that freedom. I'm a new Linux user, but it feels like *my* system, I own it and I control it. It may not work perfectly, but usually I can find a fix. On Windows everything for the most part works out-of-box *but* if something doesn't, well good luck with the Windows Troubleshooter or asking on the Microsoft forums where they cut and paste the same answer for every question and it never solves the problem, LOL.
 

nilepez

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
11,806
HardForum used to be full of enthusiast. Now everyone is so fussy and hates change.

you know, they make a product for people who hate change and thus having relearn. It is called MacOS.
In fairness, they've always bitched about windows updates. One version of XP was going to spy on you about piracy or mp3 or some other nonsense...nothing came of it.
Vista was the worst (which it was initially, but it was largely fixed by hot fixes 6 months later or when those were rolled up in the first SP

They all love 7 now, but back in the day this was a cesspool of people swearing it was too hard to use and that businesses wouldn't tolerate it, because they'd have to retrain everyone to use it.

Now they complain about 10.
Reality: with few exceptions, 7 and 10 work roughly the same. Yes, the settings thing still needs work, but I know I moved from 7->8.1 (needed that Netflix app) -> 10 and virtually nothing changed in the way I use windows.

Not sure if it's still the case, but in 2009, they were outraged about the loss of the windows 95 start menu....the menu I hadn't used in at least 5 years.
 

nilepez

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
11,806
That's the thing. It's not that open-source or Linux are objectively better. Well in some cases (such as customizing) it is much better. It is more that it is free and you are free to use it however you wish and you have to compromise on some features or functionality to obtain that freedom. I'm a new Linux user, but it feels like *my* system, I own it and I control it. It may not work perfectly, but usually I can find a fix. On Windows everything for the most part works out-of-box *but* if something doesn't, well good luck with the Windows Troubleshooter or asking on the Microsoft forums where they cut and paste the same answer for every question and it never solves the problem, LOL.
Kinda true, but if you keep those major updates sitting around, you can just install the update and, IME, it always fixes the issue (if it's a s/w problem).
 

CraigHB

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 12, 2020
Messages
146
...since people are still using Classic-shell/Open-Shell, Startx, etc for a reason.

I've been using Classic Shell and now Open Shell since winXP. My start menu has not changed. Don't need anything different.

Yeah I don't get it, changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff. That's not progress, that's just changing stuff, but they seem to mistake it for that which only makes it hard on the users. I call it un-fu*king Windows. It was not too hard to do that with Win7, but it took me months of squirreling away registry tweaks and command tweaks when I first started using win10.

I actually would have stayed on win7 longer, but retiring my old desktop and buying a new laptop a couple years ago forced my hand. Every time I've moved to a new version of Windows it's not been by choice. Granted I've seen some new features that are useful, but it's always because software or hardware forces me to move forward. I rode winXP until it started losing software support. WinXP actually made me perfectly happy with Windows, like fanboy happy. All downhill after that.
 

Mystique

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
344
They don't "change stuff to change stuff". The windows 10 infrastructure is miles better than the garbage Windows 7, and even 8.1. Even with the telemetry and cortana enabled.

-The UI looks better.
-It is extremely stable in my experience.
-The start menu is epic, and you can add your own tiles if you spend 5 minutes learning instead of complaining.

If you want to use Windows XP forever, good for you, but I want the newer stuff, as it's actually much better.
The dev tooling is out of this planet for VS/VScode.
Explorer has more tools than with winclassic shell https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys

1591457429946.png


The list goes on; from all the way down to gpedit.msc to Windows settings, Control Panel, Windows Sandbox, CMD/Notepad improvements, Audio engine swapping on the fly via toolbar options, GPU settings per app, Power States, integrated Linux subsystems.... Just because you stopped floating down the stream, doesn't mean Windows hasn't kept getting better. It's freaking incredible.

I see people complaining about the Troubleshooter and stuff. Really, lol? This is HardForum. Make your OS work for you; don't cut your knees off and say I already know how to run, don't teach me more. Sounds like the old man M$ hate train to me. Before anyone starts about linux, I also have several Debian machines which I'd recommend to anyone for servers, but everything has it's time, place and purpose.
 
Last edited:

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
3,444
Big problem for Microsoft is a really awful public image. They're one of the most predatory companies and have got to where they are mostly though unscrupulous practices. For example Bill Gates flat out stole the mouse and keyboard invention from Zerox and based Windows on it.

Hate to "well actually" this, but...

Apple (specifically Steve Jobs) was the one that saw the Xerox PARC mouse design and realized it'd be great for a more intuitive user interface. The Mac was introduced in Jaunary 1984, almost two years before Windows 1.0. Microsoft, as it's prone to doing, was just chasing Apple.

I realize this is a late reply, but it still stands!
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,471
Hate to "well actually" this, but...

Apple (specifically Steve Jobs) was the one that saw the Xerox PARC mouse design and realized it'd be great for a more intuitive user interface. The Mac was introduced in Jaunary 1984, almost two years before Windows 1.0. Microsoft, as it's prone to doing, was just chasing Apple.

*Cough* Amiga *Cough*
 

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
3,444
*Cough* Amiga *Cough*

Introduced in July 1985. 😛

The Amiga was amazing for its time, but Apple was definitely the first with a mainstream GUI. And actually, I was underselling Apple's lead. The Mac was not the first Apple computer with a GUI -- that was the Lisa, which debuted in January 1983. So Microsoft and Commodore were more than two years behind.
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,471
Introduced in July 1985. 😛

The Amiga was amazing for its time, but Apple was definitely the first with a mainstream GUI. And actually, I was underselling Apple's lead. The Mac was not the first Apple computer with a GUI -- that was the Lisa, which debuted in January 1983. So Microsoft and Commodore were more than two years behind.

Well, the Amiga "waited" and did it better because, in my opinion. :D Of course, what good is doing it better if they failed to succeed? Oh well, the MAC is good but I think Windows is good, also. So far, 20H1 appears to be working fine on all 3 of my computers.

Edit: I do have the latest version of Amiga Forever.
 

odditory

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
6,482
Introduced in July 1985. 😛

The Amiga was amazing for its time, but Apple was definitely the first with a mainstream GUI. And actually, I was underselling Apple's lead. The Mac was not the first Apple computer with a GUI -- that was the Lisa, which debuted in January 1983. So Microsoft and Commodore were more than two years behind.
You sure? I seem to remember GeOS for C64 before the Amiga days
 

sadsteve

Gawd
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
586
The biggest advancements I have seen in Windows in the past few versions are
Windows snap (use it 100x a day)
Start menu search. When Vista came out, half the complaints were about the start menu. With windows search, who the hell uses the start menu? I have not since Vista
Much improved task manager
Virtual desktops - still lag behind MacOS but they are a welcome addition

So it is not all bad

Heh, Snap is one of the first things I disable when I have to reinstall Windows 10 after a failed feature update (3 out of 10 computers needed fresh installs).

I've been using Classic Shell (now Open Shell) since the Win 7 days so search has been working fine for me. And yes, I do use the Start Menu regularly.

I have no real use for Virtual desktops on Windows or on Linux (at home).

I will admit that the task manager has been improved a lot.
 

Format _C:

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 12, 2001
Messages
3,569
*Cough* Amiga *Cough*

@ ManofGod I would talk with a Doctor to get that cough looked at ASAP. Lol!

I have never played with an Amiga computer my first PC experience was with a Tandy 1000 in 1996 none the less I remember playing Leisure Suit Larry - Land of the Lounge Lizards I was 12 years old at that time not exactly a game for a kid.
 

CraigHB

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 12, 2020
Messages
146
My wife used to play those back in the day. A bit before my first home computer, an IBM PS2 (8086 processor). Used it to edit documents with some program I don't remember and connect to BBS systems over a 1200 baud modem. Never played any computer games until the 3D stuff came along, though I did play some of those BBS games that were all text and way too time consuming.
 
Top