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Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Mar 19, 2017.
I was referring to home users, not businesses. I always assume that businesses test patches before they apply them to their computers.
I read this on 1080 Ti review day. The test suite he's using here explains why Linux gaming is a tough sell to people buying $700 GPUs to play games.
Only on [H] is 92% market share an issue. For reference, Mac is the next closest at 6.6% followed by Linux at 1%
I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again: over the next year we're going to see the netmarketshare numbers climb and in 3 years I suspect 10 will be at 70% or higher (i.e. the current 10 market share + the current 7 market share)
Is that all you do on your machine? Is game?
No, but here's a super duper Linux guy that was reviewing games. That's the point of a part like this. Not the only one but the major one for most.
All I will say is, not a single client, family member, or any non-[H] person I know has ever expressed any interest in Linux, ever. Most people either don't know or don't care about Linux. Most of them are not going to want to change because they are so used to using Windows.
There is a vastly skewed perspective on how good or popular Linux truly is around these parts...which makes sense, considering the demographic. But realize that it is skewed.
I have nothing against Linux, at all. But my point still stands.
Heatlesssun, go talk to the wall, you're worthless opinion is a joke. Do I care if you cannot find people using 1080Ti's under r/linux_gaming? I can assure you that I do not. Am I lying or making up little stories to try and substantiate my claim? Absolutely not, I wouldn't waste the energy in an argument with yourself. Will a Linux gamer benefit from the upgrade to a 1080Ti? Of course they will.
We've been over all of this, if you're incapable of understanding or comprehending any of it seek medical assistance.
This is true and has been my findings also, many AAA releases are still fairly beta on release. The issue is that I enjoy multiplayer FPS and by the time all the issues are sorted out the servers are starting to dry up, in fact after ~6 months it's not uncommon for the servers to be literal wastelands making the expenditure of hard earned $$ a complete waste of money. That's what put me off AAA gaming and it's an issue that doesn't seem to be improving any time soon.
Linux is at a little over 2% that we know of, In comparison to Windows and OSX/macOS you cannot statistically measure the usage of an OS that isn't sold through retail channels and net counters are rubbish at best.
All of this kind of stuff, but never really much discussion about the specifics of Linux gaming other than "it's fine" or "growing exponentially". Do a little research and gee, not a lot out there. There's a couple of sites like Phronix, some guys on YouTube, but the actual discussions around gaming tend to be very thin, except when there's some excitement for a port, like Civ VI which launched being not able to do multiplayer with Windows clients and iffy performance.
Not interested in your bias. Talk to the wall.
Well a developer is interested in making a Linux game and is curious as to the size of that market, what's he supposed to do, take the word of anonymous online folks or look at the best available data there is?
There's some data, I'd trust that before I'd trust anything presented to consumers on Steam or some net counter.
Of course you'd trust the data from a hardcore pro-desktop Linux site more than Steam, which has TONS more real world data based on actual usage and not peoples' manual responses to questions. And yeah, forget about the survey client. Steam has exact numbers on who is playing and what they're buying. They have to as you and others have indicated as that data is needed in order to play developers based on platform.
I wouldn't call Steam exact by any stretch of the imagination, even this article emphasises not to put much faith in Steam figures:
The fact remains that Linux usage is impossible to quantify in any exact terms. However Linux usage statistics under Steam are growing, whether you choose to put faith in those figures is another issue altogether.
I linked that review to you days ago, I fail to see in any way whatsoever just why the test suite used indicates that Linux gamers aren't interested in high end GPU's to play games? The comment is just flat out stupid considering the authors quote below and the obvious improvement in overall performance.
You're like a Horse with blinkers on, unable to see anything around you unless it substantiates the propaganda you must be paid to spread relating to Windows? It's downright bizarre!
I think I was just trying to explain to you that games aren't the only thing that requires horsepower... even GPUs my friend. There are plenty of uses for a good GPU outside of gaming. That I can halve the render time in blender in Linux is far more interesting to me then an extra 8 or 9 FPS in games where last years cards are already putting out min frame rates over 60. I wasn't trying to argue their importance to games with you. You simply don't seem to understand that things like high end video cards aren't strictly gaming hardware anymore. I have clients that use machines that would make you wet yourself and they will never install a game on those systems or windows. lol Nvidia is marketing their cards to a lot more markets then just games... and based on their design decisions the last few cycles I think it should be pretty obvious games aren't what they are being primarily designed for anymore.
I've also beat my head against a wall trying to explain this simple fact to him. According to Heatlesssun a GPU is only really good for gaming and there's no benefit to a faster GPU under Linux as you can't run BF1 under Linux or Linux users don't spend $700.00 on GPU's or some such rubbish - Remarkably odd logic.
I have customers that have spent a lot more then what a top of the line game card goes for on Quadros and Firepros. The top of the line for both go for more then most gamers spend on entire systems.
http://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6 Hothardware actually played some games in windows on a p6000 back in december. They reviewed with the standard cuda stuff, but seeing they ran Hitman on it did give me a good chuckle. I am hoping no one is really buying $5k gpus to game on. In that market AMD is still performing pretty well also their 9100 is a pretty darn good compute card.
I'm fully aware, you'll get no argument out of me. Sadly the [H] Forums Microsoft propaganda machine blatantly refuses to accept any point of view that goes against his belief that Windows is great because it's popular and the situation surrounding Linux hasn't changed in 20 years, or some such shit. The entire animation industry is built solely on Linux desktops (some Apple, but they're not really suitable), Linux servers, CUDA acceleration and render farms all running Linux.
Don't try to reason with him, I tried it, I even tried befriending him in the early stages. It was a complete waste of time. I have no respect for him whatsoever, his story that he works at the bank but spends the entire day, evening, whatever on [H]OCP doesn't settle well in my mind, especially considering his attitude towards Microsoft that goes way beyond any reasonable bias I have ever seen in the many years I have been participating in internet forums and the BBS scene before that. If the guy isn't stupid, he certainly has the stupid act down pat.
Think about it, in GMT+10 time, where I am here, he spends from ~6:00 in the morning until ~4:30 - 5:00 in the evening on [H]OCP when he finally (thankfully) disappears - And he is on the [H] Forums between those hours 100% of the time with more posts than Kyle himself in less time. Something doesn't add up there.
Still, comparing the experience of AAA multiplayer FPSs on initial release is a far cry from "90% of AAA games run better on a console." I think the latter is a pure BS statement.
As for the multiplayer FPSs, playing on a console you have to use a thumbstick for aiming, which would be hell for me, I'd argue you're getting screwed either way. I don't play multiplayer-only AAA games either for the most part and I still play a crapload of games. The sliver you're describing is not representative of the broader claim he made as a whole.
Oh my Gawd! Honestly, as a person that enjoys FPS games, the little twiddly sticks are what completely turn me off console gaming! Although they are ok for racing games such as Forza, having said that I'm completely over Forza for the time being.
Maybe I'm naive, maybe just lucky. Although towards the beginning Win 10 caused me quite a bit of grief recently, as in the last year +, it's been just fine for me. I formatted, and reinstalled, over the weekend and it took no time at all. I did the reinstall because of goofy things that I'm pretty sure that I caused by too much goofin' around.
I'm not a MS fanboy, nor am I a MS basher. I understand the telemetry issues and have done what I can to stop that crap.
I am apprehensive about the "Creators" update. Hopefully it doesn't bork my computer, or any of the computers I support (friends and family.)
And I do agree that MS seems to be going a bit nuts over updates, not letting customers keep 7/8.1, etc.
But, overall, I'm just not that unhappy. I've used Linux Mint on and off for years, and really like it. 18.1 is great. But I do game, and I just don't want to be bothered with dual-booting, Wine, Steam on Linux, etc.
Just my opinion. I'm not trying to dispute other's opinions, or cause any arguments.
damn, you lot are still justifying this as a goodthing(tm)
"Windows is downloading data on a metered connection!!!! look over here linux and gfx cards not used"
Lmao I know many people myself included who don't update anything unless compatibility required. Guess what, my win7 install is 6+ years old and been on multiple mobos/platforms. And no viruses etc. Neither do all the far less tech inclined type I know. problem free without updates.
It's called simple basic security steps, to remove reliance on updates In the first place. Security updates are the ambulance bottom of the hill.
>win10 shills screeching re:muh updaytez
Fuck off with your irrelevant updates shilling. A growing number of people are just disabling them or rolling back.
It seems like win10 acts more like a Trojan every passing day.
I never said there weren't other purposes for GPUs. But a lot goes into a modern GPU to support gaming that's not part of the main floating point capabilities of a GPU, things like simultaneous multi-projection, VR reprojection, etc. And there are plenty of games that can't hit 60 FPS on a 1080 when settings are cranked up. I came from 1080s and yeah, there's a pretty significant leap with the Ti in certain games at higher resolutions and settings. And a number of others have noted the same thing coming from 1080s. So yeah, gaming is a big factor in getting people to spend money on the latest and greatest and that demand, even if niche, is a big deal if we want ever faster hardware because in the consumer space at least, who's going to buy this kind of stuff more than gamers?
Use whatever works for you. I'm certainly no Linux basher, but there are things it's not good at, just like Windows.
Hey I admit pulling a random number like 90% out of the air is going to sound like BS cause I guess it is. I was simply applying my own experience where at one point it seemed every AAA game I purchased had major PC issues or plain ran like crap. If I'm being honest I gave up around the time games I purchased where being pulled form the PC completely after they where released. Granted things may have gotten better and those games where likely not 90% of all the games at the time... simply they where 90% of the games I personally purchased. That they ran better on a console was pretty clear to me... that they where not designed to ever run on a PC seemed pretty clear to me.
Still it was my experience... so I guess I choose my words incorrectly. lol
So I cede your point. Your argument is valid. I will reword.
In my experience a good number of AAA games that have interested me in the last few years have run like ass out of the gate. One had its sales removed for PC platform after I purchased it. In general it has seemed to me the small handful of AAA games I cared about have been aimed directly at consoles. I don't like it, it drives me crazy and pisses me off as a consumer. So for the most part I avoid most "AAA" game releases these days.
Your stance always seems to be heatle that Windows is the only solution if you want to run high end hardware. What I have been trying to make clear to you. The pro sector that runs Linux IS using very high end hardware. As great as you think your 1080TI is... and it is fantastic don't get me wrong. Nvidia has been selling a much faster version as a Quatro card for a few months now... and yes people are companies have been buying them. Those and AMD 9100s. Nvidia may destroy when it comes to games... but the 9100 is a 32GB AMD beast with opencl 2.0.
To give you an idea of real world use of both Linux and high end GPUs take a look at one long time Linux and high end GPU customer Pixar. In case you where wondering this is the system 76 laptop the Pixar guy is using.
If you want to know who is buying Nvidia GPUS other then games just go and look at Nvidias own numbers and I think it will be clear to you that they are no longer looking to games to decide what to put in their GPUs.
Nvidia GPU Revenue by Market
Q42017: (Gaming $1,348) vs (Pro Visulization 225 + DataCenter 296 for a total of 521) Now I know this is where you say look see gaming is still huge. It is no doubt. Thanks to weak competition the last few quarters Nvidia has been making hay they are up in gaming 66% over last year. However in the pro virt and data center fields alone they are really just starting and even though they have legit competition in that area they are up 205% this year. (I left their automotive numbers out of things... as I understand those are using a different chip design and I wouldn't say that counts in the point I'm making... but there is another 200 or something like that there) Those numbers are in millions of course... and represent revenue not profit. (the profit % in the pro sectors is obviously higher)
So if you don't know what that means... its simple. The next 2-3 generations of Nvidia GPUs and likely from here on out are going to be focused heavily at those markets. Likely this year AMD will in fact gain at least a portion of the gaming market back... so its likely that NV is still going to do very well but NV isn't expecting another 66% growth year they will likely be very happy if they can stick the current sales number or grow a small %. However they are expecting completely to continue 150-200% growth in the 2 sectors I mentioned. Where things are right now the R&D dollars are aimed at making money in markets other then gaming. The GP102 chip that powers the Titan and 1080ti... has been powering the the p6000 for awhile now (Since October I think?). The quatro card is the only NV card shipping with a fully functional GP102 chip.
Anyway it feels like I'm going way off topic here heatle. Bottom line is companies like Nvidia are these days making more $ in markets other then gaming with GPUs. Yes the gaming market still accounts for the majority of overall revenue. However the gaming market no longer accounts for the majority of their Profit. There is more profit in the commercial workstation and data center markets. Overall revenue volumes there are also up. the GP102 chip may be one of the first chips that had large parts of its designed not aimed at games at all. The Volta is likely going to take that even further... and past that. Games are going to be more and more an after thought. Of course things will get faster for games. Still as it stands right now the only cards being shipped with fully functioning GP102 chips are pro Quatro cards... and that trend is likely to continue for NV at least.
Well now you have me curious, what games were running like garbage on the PC for you? And you may still have an argument for AAA games on day one. I consider everything late beta now, I'm on a delay before I buy pretty much anything now so it has time to get patched up.
I've never said anything like that in such general terms. I have only been talking about the consumer space. Like gaming, it's not hard to see that there aren't many games out there for Linux that will push high end hardware. And VR is in development and we have no idea what will be available there for Linux.
Yeah, Quadros aren't gaming cards.
You may not want to respond to him, but he's not wrong on any points in that post.
I disagree, with the exception of Civ VI which is a pretty poor game compared to previous versions, getting downvoted to hell on Steam, which is most likely the reason no one talks about it - No one cares as no one likes it.
Every time I post a fact I back it up with a link and evidence, most of the time when Heatlesssun posts a misinformed opinion that he believes covers everything it's nothing more than that - a misinformed opinion. The thing is, because my points don't highlight Windows in a positive light he either doesn't read them at all or reads them and disregards the information contained within completely.
Linux is growing at a very impressive rate and this is evidenced on Steam, I checked the other day and since the 18th of march 11 titles have been added to Steam under Linux (from memory) and the statistics are not showing a drop in Linux users - This is fact and I have provided links and screenshots in the past proving this. Yes, some ports under Linux don't perform well compared to their Windows counterparts, but for the most part at the resolution most gamers use as evidenced by the Steam hardware and software survey, with that being 1080p, performance is in most cases able to exceed 60fps on decent hardware using decent settings - Especially Nvidia hardware. The issues created by lazy developers and DX to OpenGL wrappers are one of the reasons all Linux gamers can very much benefit from the addition of more powerful hardware like the 1080Ti. Not all titles perform stellar on Windows either.
Linux is a newcomer to the gaming scene and the constant rhetoric by our loyal Windows propaganda machine that Windows is growing at a comparatively faster rate is a moot point as it's blatantly obvious Windows is going to be growing at a faster rate due to the time it's been the dominant PC gaming platform. This is also the reason why reviews are thin, in time I'm sure more reviewers will begin testing Linux titles as adoption of the platform grows, not that I hold much respect for reviewers.
Heatlesssun argues for the sake of arguing, 99% of the time he argues points that have already been discussed to death in discussions where his thinly constructed opinion fails miserably in substantiating his point. That's the reason why I shut the argument down, that's the reason I refuse to respond.
I mostly walked away from AAA gaming 3-4 years back at least. The last "AAA" windows game I remember buying was Arkham knight, I think that should about say it all. I will admit I should likely not paint every game out there with the same brush. I'm sure their are plenty of good AAA windows games for the most part I just don't care anymore. I have honestly found I enjoy many of the less main stream games more these days.
As I have always said though... I keep a Win 7 drive around. I do play a handful of MMOs and although I can almost always make them run fairly well in Linux, hey I enjoy a little mmo pvp now and then and for that I prefer to boat my Win 7 drive up as it offers enough of a performance bump running it native to bother keeping the drive around. If I had to guess I would say if I'm gaming 90% of the time I'm in Linux... its mostly those online games I bother rebooting for. I'm also getting old I guess as I find myself playing a lot of stuff in dosbox these days. lol
CoD Advanced Warfare had major vram leaks on release, sucking up all 8GB on my 980Ti within about two minutes. Mates that bought the game on release suffered the same issues also:
Peeps like me remember when peeps like you caused the backbone to go down in the mid 90s, because those smart admins (like you) couldn't be bothered to patch known vulnerabilities. And every time a major outbreak happens on Windows, it's because smart people like you couldn't be bother to patch known vulnerabilities.
I just posted the link Bullet. For some reason it varies on Linux from 1-2%...so let's go with 2%. And bud, there's not that many people using Linux. You clearly don't work in this field. I DO. While we use Linux at work for development, the vast majority of those developers and engineers use Windows or a Mac. It's probably higher than 2%, but we're fucking engineers that are already using the OS at work (either directly or by telnet/X window).
And if you don't like that link, then go to Steam....but you fair even worse there (which fits with my experience that home users don't use Linux).
Games added on Steam today March 21st 2017 by platform in the US:
Linux - 2
macOS - 5
Windows - 20 / 18 conventional, 2 VR
And this happens each and every day. So while you might call it explosive growth it's also called 3rd place my a mile.
Maybe Microsoft shouldn't have violated user trust by using Windows Update to remove features and install spyware. Maybe they shouldn't have deliberately broken Windows Update for 7/8 to make it slower and push people to 10. Maybe they should actually provide some clear documentation for their updates and spend some money on QA.
You'd have to be some kind of cuck or a paid shill to defend this behavior.
Oh no my OS is keeping up to date, better switch to Linux with the other 12 people and have my pc be completely useless.